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[Ascending]

Interesting read:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5675139/Paul-Simon-admits-short-5-foot-three-height-eclipsed-success.html

[wants2growtaller]

Wow. this article was written in such a negative bias. The author of this article portrayed Paul Simon as a short men who has an inferiority complex. The author completely downplayed the struggles, prejudice and discrimination that Paul simon faced. He also downplayed the negative impact that height prejudice has on people expecially short man. Even his bullet points highlited in  a very subliminal way the superiority of tall height and the so called inferiority of short height.

[ivan]

I always thought he was average/shortish and Garfunkel was just super tall.

[wants2growtaller]

It takes a lot of courage for someone of Paul Simons social stature to express height prejudice and how it has negatively impacted him. He definitely is facing a lot of backlash for acknowledging height bias.

[Ascending]

Wow. this article was written in such a negative bias. The author of this article portrayed Paul Simon as a short men who has an inferiority complex. The author completely downplayed the struggles, prejudice and discrimination that Paul simon faced. He also downplayed the negative impact that height prejudice has on people expecially short man. Even his bullet points highlited in  a very subliminal way the superiority of tall height and the so called inferiority of short height.

Yes I see what you mean.  They make out that he is petty and wanted to be taller so he could dominate others.  They basically framed it as him having short man syndrome.

[ThatGuy]

Do you need to have some sort of condition to become a 5'0-5'3 male?

[wants2growtaller]

Yup. Its a way to shut people down. Whenver any marginalized groups of people start talking about their experiences people who want to keep those groups down will often diminish their pain,.

[myloginacc]

Do you need to have some sort of condition to become a 5'0-5'3 male?

5'3 is about the average height for a man in Laos, but it'd probably fall under constitutional short stature in tall European countries.

[wants2growtaller]

The world is bigger than just European countries. There is seven billion people in the world.

[Ascending]

Do you need to have some sort of condition to become a 5'0-5'3 male?

Short man syndrome is pop psychology:

The phenomenon of appearing overly aggressive or assertive. This may be a reaction after repeatedly suffering height discrimination (heightism) in the workplace, in relationships with women, or elsewhere during socialisation.

Basically if you stand up for yourself as a short man you get described as having Short Man Syndrome.

[ThatGuy]

5'3 is about the average height for a man in Laos, but it'd probably fall under constitutional short stature in tall European countries.

I was thinking about countries with extremely short averages when I was writing my question, I guess I was just underestimating how much diet and hygiene can actually affect someones final height. Places like Bolivia/Peru/Vietnam are perfect examples of how a terrible diet can wreck you.

[myloginacc]

I was thinking about countries with extremely short averages when I was writing my question, I guess I was just underestimating how much diet and hygiene can actually affect someones final height. Places like Bolivia/Peru/Vietnam are perfect examples of how a terrible diet can wreck you.

Vietnam and Peru have done fine economically (as far as I'm informed) for the last couple decades. It's mostly genetics there.

[ThatGuy]

Vietnam and Peru have done fine economically (as far as I'm informed) for the last couple decades. It's mostly genetics there.

Hmm, Vietnam and Peru might not have been my best choices here, but I still don't think the averages would stay around 5'4 with decent diets and proper sanitation.

[wants2growtaller]

Are you calling short people dirty?

[ThatGuy]

No, I'm saying if you aren't in a very clean environment and you have overall poor hygiene it can wreck your crap through infection or disease in the midst of development. Poor hygiene as in not washing your hands and maybe eating food without properly cleaning it.

[ivan]

Very clean environment is almost as bad as poor one. I mean sanitation is important but raising children in environments that are too clean leads to a weak immune system and can make them prone to autoimmune and allergic diseases later in life. Also, a disease common in the Western world such as childood leukaemia is associated with low exposure to infections, yet it's almost non-existent in the poorest countries.

I remember when I was a kid my parents always urged me to wash my hands with antibacterial soap, almost never played outside, no pets etc. Now I have awful hay fever and many other allergies. My brother on the other hand was raised in a village. No allergies at all.

In general, too much of anything is bad.

[wants2growtaller]

i find you a bit prejudicial. Im a short person and i  was born and raised in Canada. and im also a person of color. There are a lot of short people in Canada , United States and also there are a lot of tall people in the ''underdeveloped'' countries. It has a lot to do with genetics. I use to think that maybe my short stature had to do wit h bad eating habits..i mean i think it did contribut to it but my mom is five two and my dad cant be taller than five six. Both are very successful people and well respect. Though for some reason they look really tall. But yea please stop generalizing and putting down nations that are non white. It just leads to more division, more people think they are inferior and causes discrimination.

[ThatGuy]

I'm the prejudice one when you're saying these people are 5'3 because of their genetics? I bet black people have lower iqs because of their ethnicity too. Saying that a nation's economics and sanitation being poor negatively effects their development is not prejudice even remotely. what you're saying would be like saying blacks commit more crime not because of their socioeconomic status, but because they're genetically predisposed to. I'll help you out, if you see me saying that something is the fault of any nation or people because of their genetics or because they're simply not as well off because they're generally inferior you can shxt down my throat for it and it'd be well deserved.

[wants2growtaller]

No one is inferior. And i really hate your way of thinking. It has a lot of prejudice undertone. My point is height is contributed to two things genetics and healthy diet. A person can have good hygiene and end up short.  So I dont understnad what you mean by sanitation. Are you implying that these so called underdeveloped countries are unclean? That would be racist and over gerneralization. Like i said there are countries in the world were people are average to tall height despite their poor economic upbringing. It only has been recently that asians are now taller. But back then asians were quite small. And they were not an underveloped country.

[ThatGuy]

I can't tell if it's your reading comprehension or if I really suck at conveying my thoughts, fxck me. Someone help me out, am I butchering my statements and examples? How do I help her understand how contradictory her posts are?

[wants2growtaller]

I juist dont like your way of thinking. Its rooted in arrogance, pride, narcissism, sociopathy, and inferiority or superiority complex. These are negative traits that I despite in people.

[ThatGuy]

I don't like your lack of critical thinking either. If there was one thing I could give to the world it'd be the ability to critically evaluate claims and statements. The problem is I didn't think of race when I gave my examples.

[myloginacc]

You guys are both arguing against different arguments.

Hmm, Vietnam and Peru might not have been my best choices here, but I still don't think the averages would stay around 5'4 with decent diets and proper sanitation.

I'll help you all out here.

Here is an infographic on Japan's average height over a bit over a century. Japan is a developed nation.



There was a continuous increase in height, associated with better diets, hygiene, and healthcare since at least the 1890s. However, it stabilized in the late 70s. The average Japanese man stayed around 170~174cm (5'7~5'8.5). They didn't keep the same pace, in terms of average stature growth, over the last 40 years. This is almost certainly because of genetics. Japan doesn't require better sanitation, the country has a pretty carnivorous diet, and children are even given milk at schools every week, despite the low lactose tolerance in the population.

Here are the two main papers that cover our present scientific knowledge of height and genetics:

https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3097
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature21039

As it stands, we still know very little about all the genetic factors that govern height. However, that does not mean it's not of the main factors that could define an expected height range in adults.

[Ascending]

I agree with myloginacc.  There is evidence that even now poor sanitation, contaminated water supplies do impact height.  Quotes from the reports http://blogs.worldbank.org/impactevaluations/the-toilet-gap-how-much-of-differences-across-developing-countries-in-child-height-can-sanitation-ex and https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/09/india-children-stunted-growth-unsanitary-conditions-50-million:
Households in India are less poor, on average, than households in Sub-Saharan Africa, but children there are shorter. Stunting is common even among relatively well-off families in India. However, widespread Indian stunting is not due to genetics: Indian babies who move to developed countries in early life grow much taller.

I also agree there are a lot of factors involved including:

• Genetic
• Epigenetic - this is interesting because epigenetic changes can arise out of environmental changes such as famine - these effects express themselves in grandchildren and not direct children.  This is because a maternal grandmother affected by famine will have exposed the eggs developing in the foetus of her yet to be born daughter to epigenetic changes that express themselves when the daughter itself later produces children.
• Nutrition
• Healthcare
• Sanitation and Hygiene
• Possibly gravity but in a very small way

I also agree with Ivan that in the west we are probably going too far in terms of cleanliness - resulting in more and more autoimmune diseases.  Basically we a have powerful immune system with nothing to attack other than our own bodies.

[ThatGuy]

You guys are both arguing against different arguments.

I'll help you all out here.

Here is an infographic on Japan's average height over a bit over a century. Japan is a developed nation.


There was a continuous increase in height, associated with better diets, hygiene, and healthcare since at least the 1890s. However, it stabilized in the late 70s. The average Japanese man stayed around 170~174cm (5'7~5'8.5). They didn't keep the same pace, in terms of average stature growth, over the last 40 years. This is almost certainly because of genetics. Japan doesn't require better sanitation, the country has a pretty carnivorous diet, and children are even given milk at schools every week, despite the low lactose tolerance in the population.

Here are the two main papers that cover our present scientific knowledge of height and genetics:

https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3097
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature21039

As it stands, we still know very little about all the genetic factors that govern height. However, that does not mean it's not of the main factors that could define an expected height range in adults.

Thanks for the data, I just thought it was strange that an entire demographic of people could wind up around 4'10-5'3(I'm including women to be fair) because of their genetics. So I'm convinced in these extreme cases its because of the diet/sanitation of the countries they were raised. (This doesn't mean that these people are weaker, it doesn't even mean that they lack the intelligence, it also doesn't mean they're completely hopeless and incapable of utilizing their own resources. This is simply me talking about how their current situation(which might've been caused by colonialism or constant warring states or even religious extremism) might negatively affect them. I'm not bringing this up to feel superior to them either. Inb4 someone says that the charts listed here are prejudiced somehow.)

[myloginacc]

Genetics has always been a major component of height.

When the tallest countries in the world (right now) had lower average heights, today's "short" countries had even lower average heights.

Likewise, poor Sub-Saharan Africans tend to be naturally taller than equally poor and malnourished Asians. Again, genetics.

Some researchers think the Dinka people (an African people) are the naturally tallest in the world, after some comparative studies:

Dinka are sometimes noted for their height. With the Tutsi of Rwanda, they are believed to be the tallest people in Africa. Roberts and Bainbridge reported the average height of 182.6 cm (5 ft 11.9 in) in a sample of 52 Dinka Agaar and 181.3 cm (5 ft 11.4 in) in 227 Dinka Ruweng measured in 1953–1954. However, it seems the stature of today's Dinka males is lower, possibly as a consequence of undernutrition and conflicts. An anthropometric survey of Dinka men, war refugees in Ethiopia, published in 1995 found a mean height of 176.4 cm (5 ft 9.4 in). Other studies of comparative historical height data and nutrition place the Dinka as the tallest people in the world.

Do also bear in mind that even height heritability varies among human populations. The Dinka are most likely more affected by malnutrition and disease, in terms of how it impacts their height, than a Finn.

[ThatGuy]

I agree with myloginacc.  There is evidence that even now poor sanitation, contaminated water supplies do impact height.  Quotes from the reports http://blogs.worldbank.org/impactevaluations/the-toilet-gap-how-much-of-differences-across-developing-countries-in-child-height-can-sanitation-ex and https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/09/india-children-stunted-growth-unsanitary-conditions-50-million:
Households in India are less poor, on average, than households in Sub-Saharan Africa, but children there are shorter. Stunting is common even among relatively well-off families in India. However, widespread Indian stunting is not due to genetics: Indian babies who move to developed countries in early life grow much taller.

I also agree there are a lot of factors involved including:

• Genetic
• Epigenetic - this is interesting because epigenetic changes can arise out of environmental changes such as famine - these effects express themselves in grandchildren and not direct children.  This is because a maternal grandmother affected by famine will have exposed the eggs developing in the foetus of her yet to be born daughter to epigenetic changes that express themselves when the daughter itself later produces children.
• Nutrition
• Healthcare
• Sanitation and Hygiene
• Possibly gravity but in a very small way

I also agree with Ivan that in the west we are probably going too far in terms of cleanliness - resulting in more and more autoimmune diseases.  Basically we a have powerful immune system with nothing to attack other than our own bodies.

You guys are spot on. There are plenty of examples like India that prove that all of these things can have devastating effects on the final height of an individual. I remember watching a video on youtube where a professor was giving a lecture and he touched on epigenetics a little bit, he gave the same example about famines and how they can have devastating effects generations past the mother who experienced it, I was amazed just how much little things here and there could actually affect the overall outcome of a grandchild or even great grandchild. I wonder if I can still find those videos online. I wonder if things like Jim crow could've had a major effect on me even tho I've never experienced it(I'd say slavery too, but its not the best example in this case because the slaves were breed to be as big and as strong as possible) I think they were called super slaves.

[Ascending]

...

Do also bear in mind that even height heritability varies among human populations. The Dinka are most likely more affected by malnutrition and disease, in terms of how it impacts their height, than a Finn.

That's really interesting.

[Sanity]

heightism exists. thts it

[IwannaBeTaller]

I'm the prejudice one when you're saying these people are 5'3 because of their genetics? I bet black people have lower iqs because of their ethnicity too. Saying that a nation's economics and sanitation being poor negatively effects their development is not prejudice even remotely. what you're saying would be like saying blacks commit more crime not because of their socioeconomic status, but because they're genetically predisposed to. I'll help you out, if you see me saying that something is the fault of any nation or people because of their genetics or because they're simply not as well off because they're generally inferior you can shxt down my throat for it and it'd be well deserved.

Height on one hand and IQ and the tendency to commit crime cannot be compared, at all. It's not prejudice or racism to claim that some ethnic groups have a lower genetic height potential than others, it's simply a fact. Committing crime actually has devastating effects and can destroy the lives of those who land in prison, their families and that of the victims. Short height will not destroy your life or that of any others even though you can face discrimination.

Unsanitary conditions will also not stunt your growth, on its own. Diarrhea caused by infections will stunt it. And not just diarrhea, but multiple, long-lasting episodes of diarrhea.

[ThatGuy]

Look at the examples that were given. In the cases I used these people are averaging 4'10-5'2 these outcomes are too extreme to be simply based on their genetics. In fact the charts that were listed pretty much prove this. Sanitation is relevant because if it's neglected it can result in infections/diseases which if acquired at certain key points of development can stunt growth. Of course if you have poor hygiene and you somehow manage to never get sick this doesn't apply, but I doubt this is the case for entire populations. I've never said that various ethnicities don't have differences, I'm just convinced that nutrition/sanitation play a much larger role than people tend to think. In this case they can be compared if we're simply sticking to genetics, some people would even argue these differences in outcomes exist simply because of genetics(crime rates/IQ), but that's not true if you don't ignore things like socioeconomic status and education you realize this might be the real issue.