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[Johnson1111]

So you guys primarily will say how you will not be the same after LL. You both did tibias from my understanding. So in the Rozbruch video of the guy who did 3inches on his femur, he ends up being able to play basketball again less than 11 months after his surgery WITH his rods still in.

Do you both believe this testimony and think that it's realistic that he would be back playing with full knee ROM and little to no complications? Or do you feel it's more advertising and that he probably still experiences pain and will still experience pain until the rod removal and maybe forever?

I just want to know both of your opinions on the matter as that is an encouraging video to watch but happy testimony's always make me skeptical. I would have inboxed you guys but I think it would be informative for the community to hear your opinions.

[Body Builder]

I didnt say that you can't do sports after LL.
But you are less stable, less flexible, less fast and generally you are worse than before from a little to too much if you lengthened a lot or had complications (malunions, tendon recessions etc).

So no, you are not like before but you could still be normal. You cant be a professional athlete but you can be an amateur one.
Altering your biomechanics so much is obviously enough to not be the same again. But if things go right and stay in the safe zone of lengthening then you"ll be completely normal.

[..]

This raises the question of whether femurs lengthening gives a better athletic recovery than tibias lengthening.

[Body Builder]

This raises the question of whether femurs lengthening gives a better athletic recovery than tibias lengthening.

If you stay less than 6cm and have a completely straight bone alignment I dont think that athletic recovery is worse with tibias.
But things may easily go bad with tibias thats why most of the times femurs are safer.

[..]

If you stay less than 6cm and have a completely straight bone alignment I dont think that athletic recovery is worse with tibias.
But things may easily go bad with tibias thats why most of the times femurs are safer.

Athleticsm is very broad and consists of many different movements. But would you agree that tibia lengthening would make you less stable than femur lengthening?

I thought external tibia was supposed to be the safest and least invasive form of LL while femur lengthening carries more risks of FE, PE, malalignment, broken nail, internal infection, etc. It also stretches more and larger muscle groups.

[extremis]

So you guys primarily will say how you will not be the same after LL. You both did tibias from my understanding. So in the Rozbruch video of the guy who did 3inches on his femur, he ends up being able to play basketball again less than 11 months after his surgery WITH his rods still in.

Do you both believe this testimony and think that it's realistic that he would be back playing with full knee ROM and little to no complications? Or do you feel it's more advertising and that he probably still experiences pain and will still experience pain until the rod removal and maybe forever?

I just want to know both of your opinions on the matter as that is an encouraging video to watch but happy testimony's always make me skeptical. I would have inboxed you guys but I think it would be informative for the community to hear your opinions.

I'm not BodyBuilder or Sweden, nor have I had CLL done (as of this point), but since you decided to make it a community discussion I'll offer input.

I'll preface the post by pointing out that usually when people say that you "won't be the same" after CLL, barring serious crippling/paralyzing complications like what happened to unicorn and others like her, what people mean is your athletic abilities/potential won't be the same after you've "fully recovered" from the surgery, i.e. to the point that you can walk and run again.

If a guy is playing basketball/football/soccer/lifting weights 11 months after his surgery with his rods still in, does this prove that he's recovered his athletic abilities? No.

Why? Because as Bruce Wayne said (and I can't believe I'm quoting him):

Athleticsm is very broad

So let's take a look at this piecewise.

Off the top of my head, there is one athletic parameter that will absolutely, 100%, inevitably change about you as a result of doing CLL: your Center of Mass.

CLL will result in significant mass gain. Take a look at the diaries of CLL veterans; the ones who measure their weights throughout the CLL process will note that they lose some weight during the consolidation/recovery period, then gain a MASSIVE amount (i.e. 8+ lbs or 3.6+ kg) of weight after they're fully recovered with their rods out, which is to be expected, given that bone tissue is the heaviest in the human body.

Because you lengthened your legs artificially, all that new mass is concentrated there, i.e. you still have the torso and other bone proportions of a person who is your original height. As a result of this new mass and its uneven distribution, your center of mass necessarily changes.

It is this change that results in the "loss of balance" that people would theoretically experience as a result of CLL.

I can think of several athletic fields where this change in Center of Mass would be absolutely devastating to your performance, namely gymnastics and wrestling/grappling-based combat. It's particularly devastating for the former. Many gymnastics "stunts"/maneuvers rely on your CoM and your ability to properly manipulate yourself around it. I'm inclined to say that it would be extraordinarily difficult, if not absolutely impossible, for a "fully recovered" CLL patient who was a gymnast before their surgery to ever take up the sport again, even as a hobby.

Beyond this, there are several other crucial things that are also VERY likely to change, but the extent of these changes are difficult to measure/quantify even for the person themselves, such as:

1.) Soft tissue (tensile strength/integrity): As most posters here know, Distraction Osteogenesis results in the distension of connective tissue in and around the area that was lengthened. The amount of mass in your body has increased (as we discussed in Center of Mass section), but the amount of soft tissue has not - all that's happened is your old soft tissue stretched itself out.

This is a problem for various reasons. First, your soft tissue's tensile strength will probably be reduced. That is, the amount of "extra stretching" it can do will be severely hampered. It's likely that you'll be more susceptible to tendon/ligament tears and ruptures after CLL, because the cross-section of the tissue is thinner (and therefore more frail) as a result of the stretching.

Second, your weakened, distended connective tissue must now exert force on an increased amount of bone mass. Where your soft tissue developed and was designed for manipulating X amount of bone tissue, it now has to manipulate X + Y bone tissue (where Y is the amount of bone mass gained through CLL). This is probably the reason people report "loss of stamina" and "having a hard time running" or otherwise exerting force with their legs. Their weakened connective tissue has a very hard time manipulating their more massive bones.

2.) Flexibility & R.O.M: Ties back into connective tissue integrity/tensile strength. The distension of connective tissue during lengthening causes it to be more taut at rest than it normally would be (if I'm not mistaken, "ballerina foot" and similar problems occur as a result of extreme cases of this). Think of it like a rubber band that's being stretched out. The already-stretched tissue would naturally be resistant to further stretching and have a harder time doing so.

It would most likely be extremely difficult, for example, for kickboxers who underwent CLL to perform high kicks/axe kicks/any kind of kick that requires flexibility.

These are just off the top of my head.

Sure, a person who undergoes CLL might be able to perform simple athletic tasks like jump up and down (basketball), run back and forth (soccer/football/tennis/etc), swim, and so on. But it's almost inconceivable that their stamina/power/flexibility will be anywhere near the level it was at prior to the surgery. Similarly, their CoM would be permanently changed to one that would most likely be very unnatural and unwieldy (due to disproportions created by the surgery). It's not an issue of getting used to it, either. It's a biomechanics issue.

[tlannister]

jsut want to chime in regarding bodybuilder. I saw him on the old forum when he had his 1st surgery. He posted picture of himself before it was removed.
Believe me when I say it,this guy has other issues with his appearance that makes his love life so bare. I see him constantly arguing here with absolutes when discussing women and dating, just ignore him a bit. He needs psychologist, not another LL. He needs to accept his apperance and flaws or he will forever be undergoing cosmetic surgeries.

[..]

I'm not BodyBuilder or Sweden, nor have I had CLL done (as of this point), but since you decided to make it a community discussion I'll offer input.

I'll preface the post by pointing out that usually when people say that you "won't be the same" after CLL, barring serious crippling/paralyzing complications like what happened to unicorn and others like her, what people mean is your athletic abilities/potential won't be the same after you've "fully recovered" from the surgery, i.e. to the point that you can walk and run again.

If a guy is playing basketball/football/soccer/lifting weights 11 months after his surgery with his rods still in, does this prove that he's recovered his athletic abilities? No.

Why? Because as Bruce Wayne said (and I can't believe I'm quoting him):

So let's take a look at this piecewise.

Off the top of my head, there is one athletic parameter that will absolutely, 100%, inevitably change about you as a result of doing CLL: your Center of Mass.

CLL will result in significant mass gain. Take a look at the diaries of CLL veterans; the ones who measure their weights throughout the CLL process will note that they lose some weight during the consolidation/recovery period, then gain a MASSIVE amount (i.e. 8+ lbs or 3.6+ kg) of weight after they're fully recovered with their rods out, which is to be expected, given that bone tissue is the heaviest in the human body.

Because you lengthened your legs artificially, all that new mass is concentrated there, i.e. you still have the torso and other bone proportions of a person who is your original height. As a result of this new mass and its uneven distribution, your center of mass necessarily changes.

It is this change that results in the "loss of balance" that people would theoretically experience as a result of CLL.

I can think of several athletic fields where this change in Center of Mass would be absolutely devastating to your performance, namely gymnastics and wrestling/grappling-based combat. It's particularly devastating for the former. Many gymnastics "stunts"/maneuvers rely on your CoM and your ability to properly manipulate yourself around it. I'm inclined to say that it would be extraordinarily difficult, if not absolutely impossible, for a "fully recovered" CLL patient who was a gymnast before their surgery to ever take up the sport again, even as a hobby.

Beyond this, there are several other crucial things that are also VERY likely to change, but the extent of these changes are difficult to measure/quantify even for the person themselves, such as:

1.) Soft tissue (tensile strength/integrity): As most posters here know, Distraction Osteogenesis results in the distension of connective tissue in and around the area that was lengthened. The amount of mass in your body has increased (as we discussed in Center of Mass section), but the amount of soft tissue has not - all that's happened is your old soft tissue stretched itself out.

This is a problem for various reasons. First, your soft tissue's tensile strength will probably be reduced. That is, the amount of "extra stretching" it can do will be severely hampered. It's likely that you'll be more susceptible to tendon/ligament tears and ruptures after CLL, because the cross-section of the tissue is thinner (and therefore more frail) as a result of the stretching.

Second, your weakened, distended connective tissue must now exert force on an increased amount of bone mass. Where your soft tissue developed and was designed for manipulating X amount of bone tissue, it now has to manipulate X + Y bone tissue (where Y is the amount of bone mass gained through CLL). This is probably the reason people report "loss of stamina" and "having a hard time running" or otherwise exerting force with their legs. Their weakened connective tissue has a very hard time manipulating their more massive bones.

2.) Flexibility & R.O.M: Ties back into connective tissue integrity/tensile strength. The distension of connective tissue during lengthening causes it to be more taut at rest than it normally would be (if I'm not mistaken, "ballerina foot" and similar problems occur as a result of extreme cases of this). Think of it like a rubber band that's being stretched out. The already-stretched tissue would naturally be resistant to further stretching and have a harder time doing so.

It would most likely be extremely difficult, for example, for kickboxers who underwent CLL to perform high kicks/axe kicks/any kind of kick that requires flexibility.

These are just off the top of my head.

Sure, a person who undergoes CLL might be able to perform simple athletic tasks like jump up and down (basketball), run back and forth (soccer/football/tennis/etc), swim, and so on. But it's almost inconceivable that their stamina/power/flexibility will be anywhere near the level it was at prior to the surgery. Similarly, their CoM would be permanently changed to one that would most likely be very unnatural and unwieldy (due to disproportions created by the surgery). It's not an issue of getting used to it, either. It's a biomechanics issue.

Yes, I can imagine that an LLed kickboxer would have a hard time in performing high kick. But guess what, an LLed kickboxer would be less likely to get his own head kicked since his head is now higher.

Good thing is I've never been a fan of kicking. I'm a puncher. All I need is stability/balance and I can throw hard punches. My legs would just serve as blockers to the opponent's low kicks/middle kicks.

I certainly could benefit from the increased height which would make me less vulnerable to high kicks and possibly reach advantages since my shoulders would be higher and closer to the opponent's head level.

My only worry is the possible decrease in power of the tendon and loss of balance. These are very devastating.

Btw, mass gain is actually another advantage. Mass × velocity = force. Meaning you can generate more power.

[justaveragedude]

Yes, I can imagine that an LLed kickboxer would have a hard time in performing high kick. But guess what, an LLed kickboxer would  be less likely to get his own head kicked since his head is now higher.

Good thing is I've never been a fan of kicking. I'm a puncher. All I need is stability/balance and I can throw hard punches. My legs would just serve as blockers to the opponent's low kicks/middle kicks.

I certainly could benefit from the increased height which would make me less vulnerable to high kicks and possibly reach advantages since my shoulders would be higher and closer to the opponent's head level.

My only worry is the possible decrease in power of the tendon and loss of balance. These are very devastating.

Damn you really want to become your own Batman huh?

[Body Builder]

jsut want to chime in regarding bodybuilder. I saw him on the old forum when he had his 1st surgery. He posted picture of himself before it was removed.
Believe me when I say it,this guy has other issues with his appearance that makes his love life so bare. I see him constantly arguing here with absolutes when discussing women and dating, just ignore him a bit. He needs psychologist, not another LL. He needs to accept his apperance and flaws or he will forever be undergoing cosmetic surgeries.

What other issues with my appearance do I have?
I am completely ok with my appearance generally except from my height which is just ok right now (not bad nor good) and I truly believe that when I reach 5.11 with another LL everything on dating will be much easier for me.
Just that, nothing more or less.
From the pics you say you could only see my thin (from muscle atrophy due to LL) legs with the monorails on, nothing else about my body or my facial characteristics. So what are my flaws that you've seen stupid liar? I have 47cm arms with less than 14% fat and a good face but I dont care to persuade you. I am just telling your lies about things you camt know as my pics showed nothing except from my tibias!
Nothing more than that!
And about my love life, I was almost never without a gf and I had sxx with at least 3x more women tham the average man (who had sxx with about 10 women in all of his life) and I am not even 30 yo.

And the absolutes you say I am talking about is that women grant a great importance to a man's height, so much that make it the number 1 trait in a man's appearance, a little above facial characteristics.

So before saying bs for someone that you dont know and tries to help fellow LL'ers- future LL'ers with his knowledge and experience about LL, think better and be more specific. Otherwise you are just a pathetic hater who insults without real evidence and have no life as your almost only post was about insulting me with lies.

[Johnson1111]

What other issues with my appearance do I have?
I am completely ok with my appearance generally except from my height which is just ok right now (not bad nor good) and I truly believe that when I reach 5.11 with another LL everything on dating will be much easier for me.
Just that, nothing more or less.
From the pics you say you could only see my thin (from muscle atrophy due to LL) legs with the monorails on, nothing else about my body or my facial characteristics. So what are my flaws that you've seen stupid liar? I have 47cm arms with less than 14% fat and a good face but I dont care to persuade you. I am just telling your lies about things you camt know as my pics showed nothing except from my tibias!
Nothing more than that!
And about my love life, I was almost never without a gf and I had sxx with at least 3x more women tham the average man (who had sxx with about 10 women in all of his life) and I am not even 30 yo.

And the absolutes you say I am talking about is that women grant a great importance to a man's height, so much that make it the number 1 trait in a man's appearance, a little above facial characteristics.

So before saying bs for someone that you dont know and tries to help fellow LL'ers- future LL'ers with his knowledge and experience about LL, think better and be more specific. Otherwise you are just a pathetic hater who insults without real evidence and have no life as your almost only post was about insulting me with lies.

So you did LL for women? (Not judging you just wondering)

[Body Builder]

So you did LL for women? (Not judging you just wondering)

My first LL was to make me feel normal socially and ok in my everyday life. Not only women, anything (university and then job etc). At 1.68 and generally under 1.70 you are simply too short for many other people to take you seriously.

Now I dont have that problems but still I am not tall enough for many women as most of them nowadays date guys 5.11 and taller. So yes, dating with random women is not very easy for an 5.85 man even though I had good looks and a muscular body (regardless what the madman who doesnt seen me never wrote) and thats the main reason for my second LL.
To have the social benefit of a taller than average man.

[extremis]

Yes, I can imagine that an LLed kickboxer would have a hard time in performing high kick. But guess what, an LLed kickboxer would be less likely to get his own head kicked since his head is now higher.

That doesn't follow at all. The other guy can still kick high. The LL kickboxer cannot.

Aside from that, there's still the matter of the LL kickboxer having weaker connective tissue, which is likely to slow down his movements significantly, not to mention his ability to produce force spontaneously

Good thing is I've never been a fan of kicking. I'm a puncher. All I need is stability/balance and I can throw hard punches. My legs would just serve as blockers to the opponent's low kicks/middle kicks.

Another one of your comic book daydreams. Lmao. I can't help but laugh whenever I see these power fantasies you have. I'm instantly reminded of this:

I certainly could benefit from the increased height which would make me less vulnerable to high kicks and possibly reach advantages since my shoulders would be higher and closer to the opponent's head level.

Lmao. There is no "reach advantage". Your legs are longer, which means your head is higher. That's it. Your arms are still the same length. After your surgery, there are two hypothetical possibilities as to the physique of your "opponent" in your delusions of movie superhero street fights:

Scenario 1: The other guy is equally as tall as or taller than you. Then the overwhelming likelihood (99%+) is that he is naturally that tall (i.e. not an LL patient like you), which also means that statistically speaking, it is also overwhelmingly likely that he has a larger wingspan, since he naturally grew into his height during his development period and is thus highly likely to have at least a neutral (but probably positive, since that is the tendency in humans) ape index.

Since your height is either equal to or less than his, but his wingspan is greater, your opponent has the reach advantage, not you.

Scenario 2: Your opponent is shorter than you. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not so pathetic that you're planning to spend $100,000+ and years in recovery time just to fight men who are shorter than you are right now, so we're going to go ahead and assume this hypothetical "shorter" opponent is no shorter than your original pre-LL height (5'6"). In that case, their wingspan will most likely be either equal to yours (if they're 5'6") or slightly greater than yours (if they're over 5'6" but still shorter than your post-LL height).

In that case, it will be difficult for them to attack your head,but it will be equally difficult for you to attack their heads, because your wingspans is exactly as short as his is (in the best case, when the opponent is 5'6"). The simple fact that your legs are longer isn't what gives you a reach advantage. A taller man's reach advantage over a shorter man comes from their larger wingspan, which allows them to make contact with a shorter opponent's body before the shorter opponent can make contact with him.

So, you don't have a reach advantage in this case either.

The ONLY advantage your longer legs would give you is that you wouldn't have to tilt your head up to look the other guy in the eye (which exposes your chin), and if you're fighting a shorter man (I would hope you're not planning to do this), you would be able to tuck your chin to look him in the eye while he would have to tilt his up.

My only worry is the possible decrease in power of the tendon and loss of balance. These are very devastating.

They are, but this won't really hit you until after your surgery when you're practicing kung fu tricks in front of one of the many full body mirrors you no doubt have at home and you realize that your legs feel like they weigh a ton and your footwork has slowed down and is clumsier than before

Btw, mass gain is actually another advantage.

In people who naturally grew into their height and have a normal Center of Mass, yes.

Mass × velocity = force. Meaning you can generate more power.

Um, no. Both these statements are wrong.

First, Force is the product of mass and acceleration, not velocity:

F = m * a = m * (dv/dt)

Where acceleration is defined as the change in velocity over a time interval (dv/dt). We can rewrite this equation to give us the acceleration produced on an object by a given Force:

a = F/m                       (1)

So the acceleration on an object is proportional to the magnitude of the Force acting upon it and inversely proportional to the object's mass. That is, the greater the object's mass, the less a given amount of Force will accelerate it.

One of the four equations of kinematics allows us to calculate an object's final velocity given its initial velocity, its acceleration, and the time interval:

v_f = v_i + a * t                            (2)

Substituting our earlier definition for a into this equation, we have

v_f = v_i + (F/m) * t                      (3)

Here we can see clearly that as m (your mass) increases, the product of the entire term [(F/m) * t] decreases, thus the entire sum (which is equal to v_f) decreases. In real-world terms, it means that when a Force of a given magnitude acts on an object (in this case your body), its final velocity goes down as its mass increases.

We can put this in a much simpler way using Energy.

Kinetic energy is calculated as

K = 1/2 * m * (v²)                        (4)

Then, we can solve for the velocity v given an object's amount of kinetic energy and its mass:

v = sqrt([2 * K] / m)                                     (5)

And we can once again see in no uncertain terms that a given amount of energy can produce less velocity (change in distance over time; that is, work) as an object's mass increases.

Since your connective tissue is weaker after the surgery than before, it's irrational to conclude you'd be able to produce more force after the surgery than before it; in fact, you're much more likely to be able to generate LESS force after the surgery, since your distended connective tissue is now trying to accelerate a greater amount of bone mass

Second, Power is defined as

P = F * v                                               (6)

Remember that we proved through both (2) and (5) that the velocity of your post-surgery body parts will be SMALLER than it was before the surgery, not greater. Therefore the Power you generate will be smaller as well.

I recommend you spend less time reading comic books/watching superhero movies and fantasizing about being a kungfu secret agent badass and pick one of these up at your local bookstore ASAP

[Johnson1111]

That doesn't follow at all. The other guy can still kick high. The LL kickboxer cannot.

Aside from that, there's still the matter of the LL kickboxer having weaker connective tissue, which is likely to slow down his movements significantly, not to mention his ability to produce force spontaneously

Another one of your comic book daydreams. Lmao. I can't help but laugh whenever I see these power fantasies you have. I'm instantly reminded of this:



Lmao. There is no "reach advantage". Your legs are longer, which means your head is higher. That's it. Your arms are still the same length. After your surgery, there are two hypothetical possibilities as to the physique of your "opponent" in your delusions of movie superhero street fights:

Scenario 1: The other guy is equally as tall as or taller than you. Then the overwhelming likelihood (99%+) is that he is naturally that tall (i.e. not an LL patient like you), which also means that statistically speaking, it is also overwhelmingly likely that he has a larger wingspan, since he naturally grew into his height during his development period and is thus highly likely to have at least a neutral (but probably positive, since that is the tendency in humans) ape index.

Since your height is either equal to or less than his, but his wingspan is greater, your opponent has the reach advantage, not you.

Scenario 2: Your opponent is shorter than you. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not so pathetic that you're planning to spend $100,000+ and years in recovery time just to fight men who are shorter than you are right now, so we're going to go ahead and assume this hypothetical "shorter" opponent is no shorter than your original pre-LL height (5'6"). In that case, their wingspan will most likely be either equal to yours (if they're 5'6") or slightly greater than yours (if they're over 5'6" but still shorter than your post-LL height).

In that case, it will be difficult for them to attack your head,but it will be equally difficult for you to attack their heads, because your wingspans is exactly as short as his is (in the best case, when the opponent is 5'6"). The simple fact that your legs are longer isn't what gives you a reach advantage. A taller man's reach advantage over a shorter man comes from their larger wingspan, which allows them to make contact with a shorter opponent's body before the shorter opponent can make contact with him.

So, you don't have a reach advantage in this case either.

The ONLY advantage your longer legs would give you is that you wouldn't have to tilt your head up to look the other guy in the eye (which exposes your chin), and if you're fighting a shorter man (I would hope you're not planning to do this), you would be able to tuck your chin to look him in the eye while he would have to tilt his up.

They are, but this won't really hit you until after your surgery when you're practicing kung fu tricks in front of one of the many full body mirrors you no doubt have at home and you realize that your legs feel like they weigh a ton and your footwork has slowed down and is clumsier than before

In people who naturally grew into their height and have a normal Center of Mass, yes.

Um, no. Both these statements are wrong.

First, Force is the product of mass and acceleration, not velocity:

F = m * a = m * (dv/dt)

Where acceleration is defined as the change in velocity over a time interval (dv/dt). We can rewrite this equation to give us the acceleration produced on an object by a given Force:

a = F/m                       (1)

So the acceleration on an object is proportional to the magnitude of the Force acting upon it and inversely proportional to the object's mass. That is, the greater the object's mass, the less a given amount of Force will accelerate it.

One of the four equations of kinematics allows us to calculate an object's final velocity given its initial velocity, its acceleration, and the time interval:

v_f = v_i + a * t                            (2)

Substituting our earlier definition for a into this equation, we have

v_f = v_i + (F/m) * t                      (3)

Here we can see clearly that as m (your mass) increases, the product of the entire term [(F/m) * t] decreases, thus the entire sum (which is equal to v_f) decreases. In real-world terms, it means that when a Force of a given magnitude acts on an object (in this case your body), its final velocity goes down as its mass increases.

We can put this in a much simpler way using Energy.

Kinetic energy is calculated as

K = 1/2 * m * (v²)                        (4)

Then, we can solve for the velocity v given an object's amount of kinetic energy and its mass:

v = sqrt([2 * K] / m)                                     (5)

And we can once again see in no uncertain terms that a given amount of energy can produce less velocity (change in distance over time; that is, work) as an object's mass increases.

Since your connective tissue is weaker after the surgery than before, it's irrational to conclude you'd be able to produce more force after the surgery than before it; in fact, you're much more likely to be able to generate LESS force after the surgery, since your distended connective tissue is now trying to accelerate a greater amount of bone mass

Second, Power is defined as

P = F * v                                               (6)

Remember that we proved through both (2) and (5) that the velocity of your post-surgery body parts will be SMALLER than it was before the surgery, not greater. Therefore the Power you generate will be smaller as well.

I recommend you spend less time reading comic books/watching superhero movies and fantasizing about being a kungfu secret agent badass and pick one of these up at your local bookstore ASAP

I see you've mentioned that you can't afford to lose alot of the physical ability you have with LL. So are you planning on waiting for an alternative, or are you feeling that LL is most likely the only option at this point, if anything at all?

If the first option, what do you think the timeline is realistically for a more preferable method that allows us to maintain more of our athletic ability?

[Johnson1111]

My first LL was to make me feel normal socially and ok in my everyday life. Not only women, anything (university and then job etc). At 1.68 and generally under 1.70 you are simply too short for many other people to take you seriously.

Now I dont have that problems but still I am not tall enough for many women as most of them nowadays date guys 5.11 and taller. So yes, dating with random women is not very easy for an 5.85 man even though I had good looks and a muscular body (regardless what the madman who doesnt seen me never wrote) and thats the main reason for my second LL.
To have the social benefit of a taller than average man.

I know what you mean about the height. I honestly think with how much people fabricate height that 5'11" is most likely to be perceived as 6'1" in the US. Especially with the athlete listings and fabrication of men and women lying about their height online. Since so many watch sports and even high schools list their players as taller they carry those heights to their everyday life and skew the perception of height.

I could be wrong but a legitimate 5'11" with an over 6' wingspan looks fairly tall. Might just be because i'm short lol.

I have been doing a bit of a test in the last couple months. Just casually asking friends and some family their height. I legitimately think over 90% of them were wrong, and maybe 50% of those 90% didn't even realize they were wrong. I have a friend who is 6'2" on his license but he's only 3.5-4 inches taller than myself and i'm 5'7" upon waking up lol.

Anyone that wants to do LL at 5'11" is a legitimate retard. 5'11" WITH FULL athletic ability??! That's an ideal height with ideal ROM and athletic ability. Most people on the earth would be more than satisfied with that. They'd be thrilled.

Best of luck to you bodybuilder. If we're ever around the same area doing LL with STRYDE we should get in a lift together since we'll be able to weight bear 

[extremis]

I see you've mentioned that you can't afford to lose alot of the physical ability you have with LL. So are you planning on waiting for an alternative, or are you feeling that LL is most likely the only option at this point, if anything at all?

That's my intention at present. Rather I should say I really have no choice. I'm not interested in increasing my height for social or sexual reasons. I stopped caring about these things a long time ago. I have other personal reasons for needing a non athletically crippling solution. I've met a fair number of people who also won't get Distraction Osteogenesis-based LL because they have athletic aspirations or otherwise.

If the first option, what do you think the timeline is realistically for a more preferable method that allows us to maintain more of our athletic ability?

I've always said on this forum (and I'll repeat it here) that a realistic, non-athletically crippling, cheaper, and safer alternative to CLL could be developed within a decade or even sooner IF AND ONLY IF interested parties (i.e. short men everywhere in the world) were to rally together in forums like this and make plans to crowdfund researchers like Dr. Alexander Teplyashin and Dr. Eben Alsberg.

Dr. Alsberg produced artificial epiphyseal cartilage ("growth plates") in vitro using a grant of around $150,000:

http://grantome.com/grant/NIH/R21-AR061265-02

Dr. Teplyashin did something similar and even tested it on sheep (all the sheep grew successfully), and even tried his technique on a Russian woman, successfully regrowing her phalanx (finger bone; use Google translate on the article):

https://www.kp.ru/daily/26526.3/3544077/

Then literally every other day there are massive medical breakthroughs in the field of stem cell technology (induced Pluripotent Stem Cells are the latest major breakthrough; these are a type of stem cell that can differentiate, or "transform", into any type of cell, including chondrocytes, which make up cartilage such as growth plates). Earlier this year, someone posted this:

https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5059447,00.html

An israeli surgeon developed a fat-grafting technique for bone tissue. He literally says it could be applied cosmetically to idiopathic short statured patients and that it would significantly increase their quality of life (Use Google Translate on article). This isn't QUITE what we're looking for, but it's evidence that CLL isn't "all we'll ever have in our lifetimes" and that it isn't "the best we can do" with current technology".

One of the roadblocks to implanting artificial epiphyseal cartilage made from induced Pluripotent Stem Cells would be an effective scaffold system (one that would be biocompatible AND biodegradable), which would be necessary to implant the cartilage at the epiphyseal region. Well, guess what happened this month?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180521092744.htm

Date:
May 21, 2018
Source:
UCLA Samueli School of Engineering
Summary:
Scientists have developed a specially adapted 3D printer to build therapeutic biomaterials from multiple materials. The advance could be a step toward on-demand printing of complex artificial tissues for use in transplants and other surgeries.

A UCLA Samueli-led team has developed a specially adapted 3D printer to build therapeutic biomaterials from multiple materials. The advance could be a step toward on-demand printing of complex artificial tissues for use in transplants and other surgeries.
[...]
The researchers used different types of hydrogels -- materials that, after passing through the printer, form scaffolds for tissue to grow into. The micromirrors direct light onto the printing surface, and the illuminated areas indicate the outline of the 3D object that's being printed. The light also triggers molecular bonds to form in the materials, which causes the gels to firm into solid material. As the 3D object is printed, the mirror array changes the light pattern to indicate the shape of each new layer.
[...]
The researchers first used the process to make simple shapes, such as pyramids. Then, they made complex 3D structures that mimicked parts of muscle tissue and muscle-skeleton connective tissues. They also printed shapes mimicking tumors with networks of blood vessels, which could be used as biological models to study cancers. They tested the printed structures by implanting them in rats. The structures were not rejected.

This is why I laugh when Body Builder dismisses the idea of a superior procedure to distraction osteogenesis being available within 10 years as a "fairy tale" or other such nonsense. It's always people who know nothing about science and have no conception of how fast scientific progress works who say that type of thing. Charles Darwin said it best:



Technology that is available and has been used TODAY, RIGHT NOW, AT THIS PRESENT MOMENT, which 10 years ago would have been called "fairy tale" or "sci-fi" fantasies:

Self-driving cars



AI with voice indistinguishable from a human being that can make appointments for you over the phone:



Rocket ships that can land upright after takeoff:



Cybernetic prosthesis that is fully mind-controlled and can FEEL:



These things are an example of what happens when an issue gets ATTENTION. If short stature had even as much attention as something like hair loss (let alone AI or space travel or cybernetic prostheses), we'd have a better solution by 2020, forget 10 years. The various technological advances that would be required for the creation and implantation of artificial growth plates is already HERE. It already EXISTS.

It's just that no one is trying to "connect the dots" and come up with a height increase procedure because everyone is too busy virtue signaling and trying to get short men to "feel better about themselves" and cope with bullsh*t like therapy and antidepressants instead of pushing for PERMANENT, PHYSICAL solutions to their physical problem, because doing that would mean humans would have to accept that they're not "good" like they've been indoctrinated to believe by their diet of Disney/Hollywood movies and that they've been systematically discriminating and oppressing conventionally unattractive (short, ugly, etc) men to the point that the aforementioned become suicidally depressed and unwilling to participate in their society.

[..]

That doesn't follow at all. The other guy can still kick high. The LL kickboxer cannot.

Aside from that, there's still the matter of the LL kickboxer having weaker connective tissue, which is likely to slow down his movements significantly, not to mention his ability to produce force spontaneously

Another one of your comic book daydreams. Lmao. I can't help but laugh whenever I see these power fantasies you have. I'm instantly reminded of this:



Lmao. There is no "reach advantage". Your legs are longer, which means your head is higher. That's it. Your arms are still the same length. After your surgery, there are two hypothetical possibilities as to the physique of your "opponent" in your delusions of movie superhero street fights:

Scenario 1: The other guy is equally as tall as or taller than you. Then the overwhelming likelihood (99%+) is that he is naturally that tall (i.e. not an LL patient like you), which also means that statistically speaking, it is also overwhelmingly likely that he has a larger wingspan, since he naturally grew into his height during his development period and is thus highly likely to have at least a neutral (but probably positive, since that is the tendency in humans) ape index.

Since your height is either equal to or less than his, but his wingspan is greater, your opponent has the reach advantage, not you.

Scenario 2: Your opponent is shorter than you. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not so pathetic that you're planning to spend $100,000+ and years in recovery time just to fight men who are shorter than you are right now, so we're going to go ahead and assume this hypothetical "shorter" opponent is no shorter than your original pre-LL height (5'6"). In that case, their wingspan will most likely be either equal to yours (if they're 5'6") or slightly greater than yours (if they're over 5'6" but still shorter than your post-LL height).

In that case, it will be difficult for them to attack your head,but it will be equally difficult for you to attack their heads, because your wingspans is exactly as short as his is (in the best case, when the opponent is 5'6"). The simple fact that your legs are longer isn't what gives you a reach advantage. A taller man's reach advantage over a shorter man comes from their larger wingspan, which allows them to make contact with a shorter opponent's body before the shorter opponent can make contact with him.

So, you don't have a reach advantage in this case either.

The ONLY advantage your longer legs would give you is that you wouldn't have to tilt your head up to look the other guy in the eye (which exposes your chin), and if you're fighting a shorter man (I would hope you're not planning to do this), you would be able to tuck your chin to look him in the eye while he would have to tilt his up.

They are, but this won't really hit you until after your surgery when you're practicing kung fu tricks in front of one of the many full body mirrors you no doubt have at home and you realize that your legs feel like they weigh a ton and your footwork has slowed down and is clumsier than before

In people who naturally grew into their height and have a normal Center of Mass, yes.

Um, no. Both these statements are wrong.

First, Force is the product of mass and acceleration, not velocity:

F = m * a = m * (dv/dt)

Where acceleration is defined as the change in velocity over a time interval (dv/dt). We can rewrite this equation to give us the acceleration produced on an object by a given Force:

a = F/m                       (1)

So the acceleration on an object is proportional to the magnitude of the Force acting upon it and inversely proportional to the object's mass. That is, the greater the object's mass, the less a given amount of Force will accelerate it.

One of the four equations of kinematics allows us to calculate an object's final velocity given its initial velocity, its acceleration, and the time interval:

v_f = v_i + a * t                            (2)

Substituting our earlier definition for a into this equation, we have

v_f = v_i + (F/m) * t                      (3)

Here we can see clearly that as m (your mass) increases, the product of the entire term [(F/m) * t] decreases, thus the entire sum (which is equal to v_f) decreases. In real-world terms, it means that when a Force of a given magnitude acts on an object (in this case your body), its final velocity goes down as its mass increases.

We can put this in a much simpler way using Energy.

Kinetic energy is calculated as

K = 1/2 * m * (v²)                        (4)

Then, we can solve for the velocity v given an object's amount of kinetic energy and its mass:

v = sqrt([2 * K] / m)                                     (5)

And we can once again see in no uncertain terms that a given amount of energy can produce less velocity (change in distance over time; that is, work) as an object's mass increases.

Since your connective tissue is weaker after the surgery than before, it's irrational to conclude you'd be able to produce more force after the surgery than before it; in fact, you're much more likely to be able to generate LESS force after the surgery, since your distended connective tissue is now trying to accelerate a greater amount of bone mass

Second, Power is defined as

P = F * v                                               (6)

Remember that we proved through both (2) and (5) that the velocity of your post-surgery body parts will be SMALLER than it was before the surgery, not greater. Therefore the Power you generate will be smaller as well.

I recommend you spend less time reading comic books/watching superhero movies and fantasizing about being a kungfu secret agent badass and pick one of these up at your local bookstore ASAP

You even have no idea of what power fantasies are. Point out when I said I was gonna fly/disappear/etc. Everything I said was within the realms of possibility.

Yes, everyone has to have plans. A boxer with no plans are like a solider going to war without strategy. Speaking of boxer, I highly doubt that Mike Tyson went to his fights reading your book. I have no interest in becoming Albert Einstein or keyboard warrior (such as yourself).

My points stay.

1. Less likely to get my head kicked

2. Not exactly reach advantages. Could be easier to reach his head.

I'm not sure about athletic mobility getting much reduced. Paley claimed his patients returned to sports at previous level. Maybe not exactly, but close enough.

[Body Builder]

I know what you mean about the height. I honestly think with how much people fabricate height that 5'11" is most likely to be perceived as 6'1" in the US. Especially with the athlete listings and fabrication of men and women lying about their height online. Since so many watch sports and even high schools list their players as taller they carry those heights to their everyday life and skew the perception of height.

I could be wrong but a legitimate 5'11" with an over 6' wingspan looks fairly tall. Might just be because i'm short lol.

I have been doing a bit of a test in the last couple months. Just casually asking friends and some family their height. I legitimately think over 90% of them were wrong, and maybe 50% of those 90% didn't even realize they were wrong. I have a friend who is 6'2" on his license but he's only 3.5-4 inches taller than myself and i'm 5'7" upon waking up lol.

Anyone that wants to do LL at 5'11" is a legitimate retard. 5'11" WITH FULL athletic ability??! That's an ideal height with ideal ROM and athletic ability. Most people on the earth would be more than satisfied with that. They'd be thrilled.

Best of luck to you bodybuilder. If we're ever around the same area doing LL with STRYDE we should get in a lift together since we'll be able to weight bear 

Valid points. In about 2 years from now and a little less I'll be able to do it with Stryde. I wish you too.

Extremis, LL with externals is here for more than 60 years and internals for more than 20 and all that time nothing else appeared to change height and all that time millions of people would like to change their heights (including very rich ones) with a safe alternative. So thinking that in 10 years that will happen, although we are not even a little close to that, is at least delusional.
Personally I think that with genome choice for infants, parents will remove genes that make a baby short, so for adults nothing will happen to change height except from LL. If not, then not even in 20-30 years we wont have a safe alternative. If you wont to become old and still wait for a miracle then so be it. For me, anyone who thinks realistically knows that Stryde is the best we can have for now and the next decades so it is now or never situation for all of us who want to get taller.
Personally, if I had the money I'll do it even today.

[IwannaBeTaller]

Man, it would be such a dream come true if humanity would find an effective alternative to LL soon. It could make hundreds of thousands of lives better. But the problem is this kind of research is such a niche thing and you can't know who to trust. Sure, I could withdraw all my savings today and send it to some Russian doctor to fund his work of which I have no idea will ever give us a solution within our lifetimes. Sure, it's an inspirational thought that at least our descendants will no longer have to be short in 500 years or so, but there is no guarantee this research will lead to anything soon. I agree though that it could be a huge economic motivation for investors once they saw how many people would pay a lot of money to get taller.

Just think of the Mars One project which turned out to be a scam. A lot of people donated money to get humans to Mars. A lot of people wasted their money. So for an individual, it's still a big conflict of interest whether he should fund some research project (which could turn out to be a scam too) or keep his money (to possibly finance LL in the future).

[myloginacc]

We will see more investment and capital going in this direction as we get older. I don't think the demand has been going unnoticed. Paley asks a minimum of around 90k and has over 100 cosmetic patients a year, if I recall all the information correctly. That's just one doctor. We also know how difficult CLL through distraction osteogenesis is. Yet, he gets these numbers - despite the costs, risks, and amount of time required in one's life. Just imagine if (when) a better procedure pops up.

It's just a bit odd of a feeling to realize we'll most likely be able to change the color of our irises before a better alternative to distraction osteogenesis appears. You know the latter case requires a lot bigger scientific foundation all coming to work together, but it just feels a bit weird. We also won't truly know how safe this eye color changing procedure will be, anyway...

[extremis]

You even have no idea of what power fantasies are. Point out when I said I was gonna fly/disappear/etc. Everything I said was within the realms of possibility.

Theorycrafting about all the kung-fu bullsh*t you're going to use to "beat up" taller men like this

Good thing is I've never been a fan of kicking. I'm a puncher. All I need is stability/balance and I can throw hard punches. My legs would just serve as blockers to the opponent's low kicks/middle kicks.

Is a power fantasy. This is what you think fights look like in real life:



When in reality fights last seconds, nobody "kicks" or does any fancy karate "martial arts" idiotic sh*t except for EXTREMELY RARE instances, and by the time you're done fantasizing about what Wing Chung Hung Tiger Crane Lion Kung Fu tricks you're going to use on the other guy, you've already eaten a hook to the jaw and gotten floored, then you're on your back with your arms over your face trying not to get your skull caved in.

Yes, everyone has to have plans. A boxer with no plans are like a solider going to war without strategy.

Lmfao. You don't know anything about fighting or war. You're a sheltered, immature, delusional, weak loser. The closest you've been to war or any kind of real fight is the video games you probably wasted your whole childhood playing

Speaking of boxer, I highly doubt that Mike Tyson went to his fights reading your book.

Mike Tyson didn't need to read physics books to understand kinematics. Know why? Because he spent time practicing boxing instead of fantasizing about being a movie star kung fu badass and sh*tposting his idiotic coping mechanisms and delusions on internet forums where everyone considers you a raving clown and a joke.

I have no interest in becoming Albert Einstein or

Trust me, your room temperature IQ coupled with your childish obsession with kung fu power fantasies ensures you're at no risk of becoming "Albert Einstein". And just LOL at implying that understanding 11th grade level kinematics requires you to be a genius-level physicist.

keyboard warrior (such as yourself).

It's laughable for you of all people to call anyone a keyboard warrior. I'm not the one sh*tting up the off topic section with 1000 threads about "giant slayer" short men that you fantasize about being (who only won a single fight against a tall opponent and lost dozens against others, but somehow the single victory makes them "giant slayers"), only to ultimately change your mind and decide you're going to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a height increasing surgery done anyway. LOL.

My points stay.

1. Less likely to get my head kicked

Nobody kicks in a street fight, you brain-dead lunatic clown

2. Not exactly reach advantages. Could be easier to reach his head.

Except that's what you said

I certainly could benefit from the increased height which would make me less vulnerable to high kicks and possibly reach advantages since my shoulders would be higher and closer to the opponent's head level.

Then I blew you the f*ck out and proved what an idiot you are and now you're moving the goalposts 

It doesn't matter whether it's "easier to reach his head". If you're fighting a man of equal height or taller, their reach is almost certainly going to be better than yours, meaning you're still at the EXACT same reach disadvantage you were before you spent $100,000 on a crippling surgery.

Not to mention you conveniently ignore your now weakened connective tissue and diminished explosive power, lol

I'm not sure about athletic mobility getting much reduced. Paley claimed his patients returned to sports at previous level. Maybe not exactly, but close enough.

Paley's claims? This is your argument? Lmfao

Paley is a salesman. It's in his best interest that you decide to get the surgery and do it with him, because that's how he makes money. Are you really stupid enough to think he's going to tell you that you're going to be permanently athletically crippled for the rest of your life as a result of getting CLL and risk you walking away with his $100,000?

Valid points. In about 2 years from now and a little less I'll be able to do it with Stryde. I wish you too.

Extremis, LL with externals is here for more than 60 years and internals for more than 20 and all that time nothing else appeared to change height

No new FDA-approved cosmetic surgery procedure has appeared. Both Dr. Teplyashin and the Israeli doctor from the article in my previous post have developed techniques PROVEN to increase height in living creatures.

Additionally, it's dumb to assume that because the Ilizarov method has been used for 60 years and internal rods have been used for 20, that this somehow proves that no new technique could be developed in 10 years (or any number of years). It's a non-sequitur. This is why I say you don't understand science. 20 years ago (let alone 60 years ago), medical science wasn't anywhere NEAR where it is today, nor was the rate of scientific progress anywhere NEAR what it is today.

20 years ago the technology we have today would look like sci-fi stuff.

and all that time millions of people would like to change their heights (including very rich ones) with a safe alternative.

Really? Because I don't see any organized communities where those "millions of people" talk about wanting height increase surgeries or procedures. I see a few scattered communities like this one with userbases of less than 150 people on average posting under 50 threads a day, 75% of which are useless Off-topic sh*tposts about celebrity heights, anecdotes from their personal lives, or "uplifting"/"motivational" sh*t that belongs in a two-bit $5 self-help book.

Meanwhile, on HairLossTalk alone there are over 64,000 unique members (and this is just one forum out of several with similar userbases such as BaldTruthTalk, hairlossforum.co.uk, Reddit's r/tressless, HairRestorationNetwork, etc), many of whom pay OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET to fly around the world to World Hair Congresses.

"World Hair Congresses? That's a thing?"

Yes, it is. The last one took place last year in Kyoto, Japan, and it was funded in part by the bald/balding men who went to attended the event, as well as RICH, "MILLIONAIRE" bald/balding men who want their hair back:

https://www.congre.co.jp/wchr2017/

Where are the "millions" of short men, particularly the rich ones, to arrange community events like this one, supporting and funding promising scientific research leading to a solution? From what I can see, most of those "millions" of short men are delusional copers who have been brainwashed by positivity-cultists into "owning their height" and "accepting themselves", and they end up posting on sh*thole circlejerk forums like r/short for the rest of their lives.

When these "millions of short men that want to increase their height" do what balding men are doing and have been doing for years now and we STILL fail to find a better solution than barbaric distraction osteogenesis, THEN you can talk about "nothing else" happening. Until then you're just making yourself look even more ignorant and uneducated than you usually look.

When we have similar-sized communities with the same interest

So thinking that in 10 years that will happen, although we are not even a little close to that, is at least delusional.

I've debunked this so many times right in front of your face that I can only conclude you don't actually read my posts before responding to them.

Personally I think that with genome choice for infants, parents will remove genes that make a baby short, so for adults nothing will happen to change height except from LL.
 If not, then not even in 20-30 years we wont have a safe alternative. If you wont to become old and still wait for a miracle then so be it.

LOL. So you think that a superior alternative to distraction osteogenesis is more than 10 years away, but large-scale, publicly available genetic engineering for cosmetic purposes is close enough that such an alternative will in fact NEVER be developed.

And you call me delusional, LOL. I don't even need to comment further on this, the dumb sh*t you write says it all for me. You are a total scientific illiterate.

For me, anyone who thinks realistically knows that Stryde is the best we can have for now and the next decades so it is now or never situation for all of us who want to get taller.
Personally, if I had the money I'll do it even today.

Fortunately, no one in the scientific community (or with 2 working neurons to rub together, for that matter) what some brain-dead gym rat coper "thinks" about what is or is not feasible to accomplish in medicine. You go ahead and get all the distraction osteogenesis you want, then move on, leave the forum, and go back to coping with your weights.

[..]

Theorycrafting about all the kung-fu bullsh*t you're going to use to "beat up" taller men like this

Is a power fantasy. This is what you think fights look like in real life:

By now, you should realize how much of an idiot you are. My advice to actually leave that 11th grade book of yours for a second and actually start practicing what you like to pretend to be an expert in on internet forum.

Everyone's here is literally saying you're delusional. But guess you like to think that you're the next Einstein just because you read Physics Essentials For Dummies.

[extremis]

An instructional video, a video of a professional cage match with referees and an audience, 2 clips where street thugs got lucky, and a 10 second video of a guy surprise jump-kicking an unsuspecting thug.

This is your proof? LOL. Just to reiterate: The first video is a tutorial, the second isn't a street fight, the fourth is a surprise attack which is no better than a sucker punch. There are TWO (2) 15-20 second clips in the worldstarhiphop video where some dumbass high school kid gets lucky with a kick.

Since you wanna play that game, here you go:



Sneak preview of what's gonna happen to you after your surgery when you try to act hard IRL and pull your idiotic kung fu wing chung wung kung whatever sh*t.

By now, you should realize how much of an idiot you are.
My advice to actually leave that 11th grade book of yours for a second and actually start practicing what you like to pretend to be an expert in on internet forum.

Everyone's here is literally saying you're delusional.[/quote]

Literally parroting what I just said to you back to me. Not only are you dumb, you're incredibly unoriginal.

I didn't ask for your "advice". Nobody needs the advice of some embarrassing delusional loser that acts like an r/AsianMasculinity poster. You are a weak, pathetic keyboard warrior who is so terrified of getting his ass beaten in a fight that he's getting $100,000 surgery done to assuage his insecurity.

But guess you like to think that you're the next Einstein just because you read Physics Essentials For Dummies.

Lmfao. Your IQ is so laughably, pitifully low that you couldn't even understand the insult.

The reason I suggested that you read Physics for Dummies was that I was implying that you wouldn't be intelligent enough to understand an actual collegiate-level Physics textbook. Thanks for proving me right. As for myself, I don't need to read books from the "for Dummies" series because I'm not a mouth-breathing retrograde ape like you.

[..]

An instructional video, a video of a professional cage match with referees and an audience, 2 clips where street thugs got lucky, and a 10 second video of a guy surprise jump-kicking an unsuspecting thug.

This is your proof? LOL. Just to reiterate: The first video is a tutorial, the second isn't a street fight, the fourth is a surprise attack which is no better than a sucker punch. There are TWO (2) 15-20 second clips in the worldstarhiphop video where some dumbass high school kid gets lucky with a kick.

Since you wanna play that game, here you go:



Sneak preview of what's gonna happen to you after your surgery when you try to act hard IRL and pull your idiotic kung fu wing chung wung kung whatever sh*t.
Everyone's here is literally saying you're delusional.

Literally parroting what I just said to you back to me. Not only are you dumb, you're incredibly unoriginal.

I didn't ask for your "advice". Nobody needs the advice of some embarrassing delusional loser that acts like an r/AsianMasculinity poster. You are a weak, pathetic keyboard warrior who is so terrified of getting his ass beaten in a fight that he's getting $100,000 surgery done to assuage his insecurity.

Lmfao. Your IQ is so laughably, pitifully low that you couldn't even understand the insult.

The reason I suggested that you read Physics for Dummies was that I was implying that you wouldn't be intelligent enough to understand an actual collegiate-level Physics textbook. Thanks for proving me right. As for myself, I don't need to read books from the "for Dummies" series because I'm not a mouth-breathing retrograde ape like you.

Yea thats my proof. What's your proof again?

If you simply scroll up the thread, seeing BB and other poster's post, then it should show clearly who is said to be delusional, moron.

[Body Builder]

Theorycrafting about all the kung-fu bullsh*t you're going to use to "beat up" taller men like this

Is a power fantasy. This is what you think fights look like in real life:



When in reality fights last seconds, nobody "kicks" or does any fancy karate "martial arts" idiotic sh*t except for EXTREMELY RARE instances, and by the time you're done fantasizing about what Wing Chung Hung Tiger Crane Lion Kung Fu tricks you're going to use on the other guy, you've already eaten a hook to the jaw and gotten floored, then you're on your back with your arms over your face trying not to get your skull caved in.

Lmfao. You don't know anything about fighting or war. You're a sheltered, immature, delusional, weak loser. The closest you've been to war or any kind of real fight is the video games you probably wasted your whole childhood playing

Mike Tyson didn't need to read physics books to understand kinematics. Know why? Because he spent time practicing boxing instead of fantasizing about being a movie star kung fu badass and sh*tposting his idiotic coping mechanisms and delusions on internet forums where everyone considers you a raving clown and a joke.

Trust me, your room temperature IQ coupled with your childish obsession with kung fu power fantasies ensures you're at no risk of becoming "Albert Einstein". And just LOL at implying that understanding 11th grade level kinematics requires you to be a genius-level physicist.

It's laughable for you of all people to call anyone a keyboard warrior. I'm not the one sh*tting up the off topic section with 1000 threads about "giant slayer" short men that you fantasize about being (who only won a single fight against a tall opponent and lost dozens against others, but somehow the single victory makes them "giant slayers"), only to ultimately change your mind and decide you're going to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a height increasing surgery done anyway. LOL.

Nobody kicks in a street fight, you brain-dead lunatic clown

Except that's what you said

Then I blew you the f*ck out and proved what an idiot you are and now you're moving the goalposts 

It doesn't matter whether it's "easier to reach his head". If you're fighting a man of equal height or taller, their reach is almost certainly going to be better than yours, meaning you're still at the EXACT same reach disadvantage you were before you spent $100,000 on a crippling surgery.

Not to mention you conveniently ignore your now weakened connective tissue and diminished explosive power, lol

Paley's claims? This is your argument? Lmfao

Paley is a salesman. It's in his best interest that you decide to get the surgery and do it with him, because that's how he makes money. Are you really stupid enough to think he's going to tell you that you're going to be permanently athletically crippled for the rest of your life as a result of getting CLL and risk you walking away with his $100,000?
 
No new FDA-approved cosmetic surgery procedure has appeared. Both Dr. Teplyashin and the Israeli doctor from the article in my previous post have developed techniques PROVEN to increase height in living creatures.

Additionally, it's dumb to assume that because the Ilizarov method has been used for 60 years and internal rods have been used for 20, that this somehow proves that no new technique could be developed in 10 years (or any number of years). It's a non-sequitur. This is why I say you don't understand science. 20 years ago (let alone 60 years ago), medical science wasn't anywhere NEAR where it is today, nor was the rate of scientific progress anywhere NEAR what it is today.

20 years ago the technology we have today would look like sci-fi stuff.
 

Really? Because I don't see any organized communities where those "millions of people" talk about wanting height increase surgeries or procedures. I see a few scattered communities like this one with userbases of less than 150 people on average posting under 50 threads a day, 75% of which are useless Off-topic sh*tposts about celebrity heights, anecdotes from their personal lives, or "uplifting"/"motivational" sh*t that belongs in a two-bit $5 self-help book.

Meanwhile, on HairLossTalk alone there are over 64,000 unique members (and this is just one forum out of several with similar userbases such as BaldTruthTalk, hairlossforum.co.uk, Reddit's r/tressless, HairRestorationNetwork, etc), many of whom pay OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET to fly around the world to World Hair Congresses.

"World Hair Congresses? That's a thing?"

Yes, it is. The last one took place last year in Kyoto, Japan, and it was funded in part by the bald/balding men who went to attended the event, as well as RICH, "MILLIONAIRE" bald/balding men who want their hair back:

https://www.congre.co.jp/wchr2017/

Where are the "millions" of short men, particularly the rich ones, to arrange community events like this one, supporting and funding promising scientific research leading to a solution? From what I can see, most of those "millions" of short men are delusional copers who have been brainwashed by positivity-cultists into "owning their height" and "accepting themselves", and they end up posting on sh*thole circlejerk forums like r/short for the rest of their lives.

When these "millions of short men that want to increase their height" do what balding men are doing and have been doing for years now and we STILL fail to find a better solution than barbaric distraction osteogenesis, THEN you can talk about "nothing else" happening. Until then you're just making yourself look even more ignorant and uneducated than you usually look.

When we have similar-sized communities with the same interest

I've debunked this so many times right in front of your face that I can only conclude you don't actually read my posts before responding to them.

LOL. So you think that a superior alternative to distraction osteogenesis is more than 10 years away, but large-scale, publicly available genetic engineering for cosmetic purposes is close enough that such an alternative will in fact NEVER be developed.

And you call me delusional, LOL. I don't even need to comment further on this, the dumb sh*t you write says it all for me. You are a total scientific illiterate.

Fortunately, no one in the scientific community (or with 2 working neurons to rub together, for that matter) what some brain-dead gym rat coper "thinks" about what is or is not feasible to accomplish in medicine. You go ahead and get all the distraction osteogenesis you want, then move on, leave the forum, and go back to coping with your weights.

It is better to do all the things you say than believing scientific bs of a doctor on Israel and another one on Rusia and thinking that I could become taller in a few years by doing an injection.
And also you are plain stupid if you think that no rich men really care to find a solution about short stature, although being short is the worst trait for a man and the hardest to change. Being short is a big taboo, more than being bald, thats why there are not many people who want to contribute to auch organizations with their name. But that doesnt mean that rich people dont give money to research about geting taller for a long time ago.

Finally, all these bs you say are because you cant accept that LL gives very good results, especially if you not exceed 5-6cm, and you are coward to do it and you just wait for a scientific miracle to make you 6ft+.
But you cant understand that even if that happens, if it is so easy then anyone would do it so you wont have any benefit if everyone gets tall.
So becoming tall wont matter like now, because anyone will be tall.

So although your scientific bs won't happen at least on the next decades, even if they will it won't give us any benefit. Of course heightism may stop which is very important but maybe people start obsessing by becoming taller and taller and have other kind of problems.
So now it is the time for any realistic short man to do LL. Anything else are things for delusionals and cowards.

[myloginacc]

Well, this thread is a clusterf*ck...

Anyway, I read more of Teplyashin's research than Alsberg's. However, I came across some snippets of Alsberg's older research on the bioengineering of cartilage.

Don't we lose height as we age due to the wearing down of joint (e.g. knee) and spinal cartilage? If that's the case, couldn't Alsberg's bioengineered cartilage - thicker than normal, worn down cartilage - already be used in a few years for a minimal height gain profile? I realize this is not the "Holy Grail", but isn't it an already possible alternative, given a supply meets a demand? I do hope everyone suffering from joint arthritis look into possible treatment in this area, too - that would initially be the main avenue of interest, anyway. So many are already using glucosamine sulphate, which has a much weaker foundation for the treatment of joint damage and osteoarthritis.

That could be one way of making some initial capital in this area of science and helping push it further, in the long run - like it happened with distraction osteogenesis (no initial cosmetic interest, outdated methods like Wagner's were completely replaced, IM nails were invented, CLL eventually became a thing, etc). With all that said, this is purely conjecture based on a layman's reading of Alsberg's older research.

[angryfem]

Bodybuilder is a mysoginisti

[Sweden]

You can still kick just as high as before - even reach higher than before LL.

I can still do the splits and kick straight up.

Basketball at a beginners level doesn’t require any direct explosiveness from your body. You can fool around with the ball and make some shots after a year, no problem.

I’ve reached the highest level of competitive martial art for men in my age(40+) today. In 2 weeks I’m participating in the European Championships.

I’m very grateful for being able to be a part of the game one last time. Makes me feel like 20 years old again traveling all over and fight my opponents. It’s the greatest feeling for me standing on that mat and represent Sweden.

[..]

I'm not BodyBuilder or Sweden, nor have I had CLL done (as of this point), but since you decided to make it a community discussion I'll offer input.

I'll preface the post by pointing out that usually when people say that you "won't be the same" after CLL, barring serious crippling/paralyzing complications like what happened to unicorn and others like her, what people mean is your athletic abilities/potential won't be the same after you've "fully recovered" from the surgery, i.e. to the point that you can walk and run again.

If a guy is playing basketball/football/soccer/lifting weights 11 months after his surgery with his rods still in, does this prove that he's recovered his athletic abilities? No.

Why? Because as Bruce Wayne said (and I can't believe I'm quoting him):

So let's take a look at this piecewise.

Off the top of my head, there is one athletic parameter that will absolutely, 100%, inevitably change about you as a result of doing CLL: your Center of Mass.

CLL will result in significant mass gain. Take a look at the diaries of CLL veterans; the ones who measure their weights throughout the CLL process will note that they lose some weight during the consolidation/recovery period, then gain a MASSIVE amount (i.e. 8+ lbs or 3.6+ kg) of weight after they're fully recovered with their rods out, which is to be expected, given that bone tissue is the heaviest in the human body.

Because you lengthened your legs artificially, all that new mass is concentrated there, i.e. you still have the torso and other bone proportions of a person who is your original height. As a result of this new mass and its uneven distribution, your center of mass necessarily changes.

It is this change that results in the "loss of balance" that people would theoretically experience as a result of CLL.

I can think of several athletic fields where this change in Center of Mass would be absolutely devastating to your performance, namely gymnastics and wrestling/grappling-based combat. It's particularly devastating for the former. Many gymnastics "stunts"/maneuvers rely on your CoM and your ability to properly manipulate yourself around it. I'm inclined to say that it would be extraordinarily difficult, if not absolutely impossible, for a "fully recovered" CLL patient who was a gymnast before their surgery to ever take up the sport again, even as a hobby.

Beyond this, there are several other crucial things that are also VERY likely to change, but the extent of these changes are difficult to measure/quantify even for the person themselves, such as:

1.) Soft tissue (tensile strength/integrity): As most posters here know, Distraction Osteogenesis results in the distension of connective tissue in and around the area that was lengthened. The amount of mass in your body has increased (as we discussed in Center of Mass section), but the amount of soft tissue has not - all that's happened is your old soft tissue stretched itself out.

This is a problem for various reasons. First, your soft tissue's tensile strength will probably be reduced. That is, the amount of "extra stretching" it can do will be severely hampered. It's likely that you'll be more susceptible to tendon/ligament tears and ruptures after CLL, because the cross-section of the tissue is thinner (and therefore more frail) as a result of the stretching.

Second, your weakened, distended connective tissue must now exert force on an increased amount of bone mass. Where your soft tissue developed and was designed for manipulating X amount of bone tissue, it now has to manipulate X + Y bone tissue (where Y is the amount of bone mass gained through CLL). This is probably the reason people report "loss of stamina" and "having a hard time running" or otherwise exerting force with their legs. Their weakened connective tissue has a very hard time manipulating their more massive bones.

2.) Flexibility & R.O.M: Ties back into connective tissue integrity/tensile strength. The distension of connective tissue during lengthening causes it to be more taut at rest than it normally would be (if I'm not mistaken, "ballerina foot" and similar problems occur as a result of extreme cases of this). Think of it like a rubber band that's being stretched out. The already-stretched tissue would naturally be resistant to further stretching and have a harder time doing so.

It would most likely be extremely difficult, for example, for kickboxers who underwent CLL to perform high kicks/axe kicks/any kind of kick that requires flexibility.

These are just off the top of my head.

Sure, a person who undergoes CLL might be able to perform simple athletic tasks like jump up and down (basketball), run back and forth (soccer/football/tennis/etc), swim, and so on. But it's almost inconceivable that their stamina/power/flexibility will be anywhere near the level it was at prior to the surgery. Similarly, their CoM would be permanently changed to one that would most likely be very unnatural and unwieldy (due to disproportions created by the surgery). It's not an issue of getting used to it, either. It's a biomechanics issue.

Great breakdown on athleticism post-LL.

[BetzLandLiberator]

1.) Soft tissue (tensile strength/integrity): As most posters here know, Distraction Osteogenesis results in the distension of connective tissue in and around the area that was lengthened. The amount of mass in your body has increased (as we discussed in Center of Mass section), but the amount of soft tissue has not - all that's happened is your old soft tissue stretched itself out.

You made some really good points but this part is incorrect.

LL DOES NOT simply stretch the soft tissues, it creates new ones.
This is the BIGGEST misconception I see being repeated about LL in this forum and other places.

When you finish the lengthening phase the soft tissue will be only stretched but with time new soft tissue (muscles, etc...) is created. That's why we LL veterans usually took 2 years to get back in shape. It takes way more time for soft tissue to regenerate than bone tissue.
And if you fo too much lengthening and too fast you will have problems here, because a lot of scar tissue wili be generated instead of healthy soft tissue.

This is well researched (lots of academic papers about this, experiments done in rabbits, etc...) and one of the things I was careful in researching before I decided to do LL. I would never had done LL if it only stretched the soft tissues.

[..]

You made some really good points but this part is incorrect.

LL DOES NOT simply stretch the soft tissues, it creates new ones.
This is the BIGGEST misconception I see being repeated about LL in this forum and other places.

When you finish the lengthening phase the soft tissue will be only stretched but with time new soft tissue (muscles, etc...) is created. That's why we LL veterans usually took 2 years to get back in shape. It takes way more time for soft tissue to regenerate than bone tissue.
And if you fo too much lengthening and too fast you will have problems here, because a lot of scar tissue wili be generated instead of healthy soft tissue.

This is well researched (lots of academic papers about this, experiments done in rabbits, etc...) and one of the things I was careful in researching before I decided to do LL. I would never had done LL if it only stretched the soft tissues.

The soft tissues grow, but at much slower rate and can't keep up with the growth rate of the bones. Thus, in the end, still stretched.