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[..]

You made some really good points but this part is incorrect.

LL DOES NOT simply stretch the soft tissues, it creates new ones.
This is the BIGGEST misconception I see being repeated about LL in this forum and other places.

When you finish the lengthening phase the soft tissue will be only stretched but with time new soft tissue (muscles, etc...) is created. That's why we LL veterans usually took 2 years to get back in shape. It takes way more time for soft tissue to regenerate than bone tissue.
And if you fo too much lengthening and too fast you will have problems here, because a lot of scar tissue wili be generated instead of healthy soft tissue.

This is well researched (lots of academic papers about this, experiments done in rabbits, etc...) and one of the things I was careful in researching before I decided to do LL. I would never had done LL if it only stretched the soft tissues.

The soft tissues grow, but at much slower rate and can't keep up with the growth rate of the bones. Thus, in the end, still stretched.

[BetzLandLiberator]

The soft tissues grow, but at much slower rate and can't keep up with the growth rate of the bones. Thus, in the end, still stretched.

1 - I already said in my post that grows in a slower rate. Nothing new here.

2 - Your "thus" is totally wrong. It is not stretched in the end of the recovery phase. It is indeed stretched after the lengthening (as I already said in my post) but not after 2 to 3 years (that's how much it takes for all the new soft tissue to grow).

The idea that LL veterans have weak muscles because our soft tissue are stretched (that was extremis point) is just wrong.

[Fox]

So how do LL’ers feel after two years? Do you guys feels just as same before LL? Getting any pains?

Btw : i would give my life if they were to find a way to reopen the growth plates. Or add artifical ones but no idea how are they going to do that in torso... arent they supposed to inject / put / whatever it is at the end of every single bone in torso?

[a]

So how do LL’ers feel after two years? Do you guys feels just as same before LL? Getting any pains?

Btw : i would give my life if they were to find a way to reopen the growth plates. Or add artifical ones but no idea how are they going to do that in torso... arent they supposed to inject / put / whatever it is at the end of the every single bone in the torso?

Ikr Fox. That's one of my concerns. The torso lengthening. My torso length is OK though. But I'm interested about artifical growth plates thing. How could it be possible? Can someone explain scientifically?

[Fox]

Ikr Fox. That's one of my concerns. The torso lengthening. My torso length is OK though. But I'm interested about artifical growth plates thing. How could it be possible? Can someone explain scientifically?

I dont know man but i highly doubt we’ll see something like that sooner than a decade. Making a sheep or a single finger taller/bigger is one thing, but making man grow taller altogether is another. But hey, this is science and i have no idea how fast it advances. But still...
dont get me wrong, i would even participate to that kind of thing as a guinea pig lol

[dal216]

After reading through this and other threads I’ve changed my mind: I think if someone with the physical prep and mental fortitude BEFORE DURING AND AFTER surgery wanted to live an athletic lifestyle after CLL he could do so very comfortably, particularly if doing the modern Stryde nail with an excellent surgeon.

That being said, if you’re 5’7+ and ESPECIALLY if you’re already average (5’9+) and only looking to stretch out to bragging height territory (6 ft+)  you better be damn sure you really have that fighting spirit in place going into this procedure because I doubt you carry the same chip on your shoulder that a legitimately short person has. It takes a certain amount of adversity in life to be able to get up every day and fight hard for something - otherwise you better just be extremely self-disciplined. Not easy. How many times have you actually completed a New Years resolution? Followed through 100% on your diet and workout routine? How many “Cheat” days have you taken? Think about it...

I know I sure af DO NOT have what it takes to pull this off at 100% for upwards of 3 years even without money concerns. I wonder if anyone else was like me thinking this would be like any other plastic surgery, lol turns out it’s not remotely in the same galaxy as regular cosmetic surgery. Professional athletes have a hard enough time coming back from injuries nowhere near this extreme.

[ZUCC420]

1 - I already said in my post that grows in a slower rate. Nothing new here.

2 - Your "thus" is totally wrong. It is not stretched in the end of the recovery phase. It is indeed stretched after the lengthening (as I already said in my post) but not after 2 to 3 years (that's how much it takes for all the new soft tissue to grow).

The idea that LL veterans have weak muscles because our soft tissue are stretched (that was extremis point) is just wrong.

http://journalofprolotherapy.com/ligament-injury-and-healing-an-overview-of-current-clinical-concepts/#:~:text=in%20the%20world.-,Ligaments%20heal%20through%20a%20distinct%20sequence%20of%20cellular%20events%20that,is%20often%20slow%20and%20incomplete.

Ligaments heal through a distinct sequence of cellular events that occur through three consecutive phases: the acute inflammatory phase, the proliferative or regenerative phase, and the tissue remodeling phase. The whole process can occur over months, and despite advances in therapeutics, many ligaments do not regain their normal tensile strength.

These are just the ligaments, other soft tissues also includes muscles, tendons, fascia, nerves, fibrous tissues, fat, blood vessels, and synovial membranes. Ancient Ilizarov technique is just too traumatic to our fragile bodies compared to the natural healthy growing that comes from growth hormone when the growth plates aren't calcified.

[..]

1 - I already said in my post that grows in a slower rate. Nothing new here.

2 - Your "thus" is totally wrong. It is not stretched in the end of the recovery phase. It is indeed stretched after the lengthening (as I already said in my post) but not after 2 to 3 years (that's how much it takes for all the new soft tissue to grow).

The idea that LL veterans have weak muscles because our soft tissue are stretched (that was extremis point) is just wrong.

That's not exactly what I remember from the doctors I contact. But maybe I'll check again.

I dont know man but i highly doubt we’ll see something like that sooner than a decade. Making a sheep or a single finger taller/bigger is one thing, but making man grow taller altogether is another. But hey, this is science and i have no idea how fast it advances. But still...
dont get me wrong, i would even participate to that kind of thing as a guinea pig lol

If we can already grow sheep and human finger, why would human be very different? From what I read, sheep' legs are quite similar as human's

[Fox]

That's not exactly what I remember from the doctors I contact. But maybe I'll check again.

If we can already grow sheep and human finger, why would human be very different? From what I read, sheep' legs are quite similar as human's

Well when growth plates were talked about i thought whole body will grow taller. I didnt think only legs. If so, yes the treatment will be around much sooner.

But what about evaluating side effects, being approved by certain authorities, and approving the procedure for cosmetic reasons? All possible within the ten years you think? (Real question, no pun intended )

And again, i would very much want it to happen even tomorrow if possible. I assume it will be much cheaper and faster alternative to LL. Hot damn! Think about it, surgery literally gets excluded.

[BetzLandLiberator]

http://journalofprolotherapy.com/ligament-injury-and-healing-an-overview-of-current-clinical-concepts/#:~:text=in%20the%20world.-,Ligaments%20heal%20through%20a%20distinct%20sequence%20of%20cellular%20events%20that,is%20often%20slow%20and%20incomplete.

These are just the ligaments, other soft tissues also includes muscles, tendons, fascia, nerves, fibrous tissues, fat, blood vessels, and synovial membranes. Ancient Ilizarov technique is just too traumatic to our fragile bodies compared to the natural healthy growing that comes from growth hormone when the growth plates aren't calcified.

What is your point? This does not contradicts anything that I said.

My point is that the muscles and other soft tissue are not just stretched, new soft tissue is created. Of course in some cases the  tensile strength won't be the same. I even gave one example in my post (scar tissue due to too fast lengthening).

[BetzLandLiberator]

That's not exactly what I remember from the doctors I contact. But maybe I'll check again.

Although I had consultations with a good amount of the most well known LL doctors before my LL, I didn't get this information only from them. I did a very thorough scientific review of LL before I decided to actually do it. I have an academic background, so that was normal for me. I spent months reading all academic papers about LL that I could, specially the ones written by potential doctors (Betz, Paley, Guichet - they all have written tons of papers about LL).

Let me show you a very old paper (from 1987) that explicitly tells us that new soft tissue is created during LL. This is a well know fact for DECADES. It really drives me crazy that in this forum (and in the old one) people have this misconception that we are just stretching our legs during LL. That's insane! Here's the article (ScienceDirect link, then Pdf link):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000712268790186X#!

https://www.jprasurg.com/article/0007-1226(87)90186-X/pdf

Here's the relevant part:

In many of Ilizarov’s patients and those of other
authors (Krjur et al., 1985) there are reports of bone
being regenerated in limbs to lengths of more than
20 cm, by using single or multiple osteotomies. The
successful formation of this “regenerated tissue”
depends on an ideal relationship between the
osteoplastic capacity of the tissue that has been
stimulated and the degree of distractive stimulus
that has been applied. This will only take place if
the bone remains well vascularised.
Ilizarov has extended the concept of “organic
regeneration” of bone to other tissues (e.g. muscle,
tendon, blood vessels, nerve and skin), recognising
in all of them a capacity to grow in response to a
distractive stimulus, a principle accepted in the use
of soft tissue expanders. In practice, any living
tissue which is mechanically stressed responds by
growing in the direction of the stress.

And as I said before, this is just one of TONS of academic papers about this.
LL creates new soft tissue. Period.
 

[Fox]

Although I had consultations with a good amount of the most well known LL doctors before my LL, I didn't get this information only from them. I did a very thorough scientific review of LL before I decided to actually do it. I have an academic background, so that was normal for me. I spent months reading all academic papers about LL that I could, specially the ones written by potential doctors (Betz, Paley, Guichet - they all have written tons of papers about LL).

Let me show you a very old paper (from 1987) that explicitly tells us that new soft tissue is created during LL. This is a well know fact for DECADES. It really drives me crazy that in this forum (and in the old one) people have this misconception that we are just stretching our legs during LL. That's insane! Here's the article (ScienceDirect link, then Pdf link):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000712268790186X#!

https://www.jprasurg.com/article/0007-1226(87)90186-X/pdf

Here's the relevant part:

In many of Ilizarov’s patients and those of other
authors (Krjur et al., 1985) there are reports of bone
being regenerated in limbs to lengths of more than
20 cm, by using single or multiple osteotomies. The
successful formation of this “regenerated tissue”
depends on an ideal relationship between the
osteoplastic capacity of the tissue that has been
stimulated and the degree of distractive stimulus
that has been applied. This will only take place if
the bone remains well vascularised.
Ilizarov has extended the concept of “organic
regeneration” of bone to other tissues (e.g. muscle,
tendon, blood vessels, nerve and skin), recognising
in all of them a capacity to grow in response to a
distractive stimulus, a principle accepted in the use
of soft tissue expanders. In practice, any living
tissue which is mechanically stressed responds by
growing in the direction of the stress.

And as I said before, this is just one of TONS of academic papers about this.
LL creates new soft tissue. Period.

What about nerves and tendons? And so why there is a misconception of not being as strong/athletic as before and the perception of  one who does LL simply will not be the same ever again?
I wanna know this : i dont have any bone / muscle / tendon / nerve pains in my legs. Nor stiffness. My legs feels comfortable and loose. Will i be like that after 2-3 years post LL?

Sorry for asking stupid questions. ( that is because i’m little stupid)

[Tartar]

Although I had consultations with a good amount of the most well known LL doctors before my LL, I didn't get this information only from them. I did a very thorough scientific review of LL before I decided to actually do it. I have an academic background, so that was normal for me. I spent months reading all academic papers about LL that I could, specially the ones written by potential doctors (Betz, Paley, Guichet - they all have written tons of papers about LL).

Let me show you a very old paper (from 1987) that explicitly tells us that new soft tissue is created during LL. This is a well know fact for DECADES. It really drives me crazy that in this forum (and in the old one) people have this misconception that we are just stretching our legs during LL. That's insane! Here's the article (ScienceDirect link, then Pdf link):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000712268790186X#!

https://www.jprasurg.com/article/0007-1226(87)90186-X/pdf

Here's the relevant part:

In many of Ilizarov’s patients and those of other
authors (Krjur et al., 1985) there are reports of bone
being regenerated in limbs to lengths of more than
20 cm, by using single or multiple osteotomies. The
successful formation of this “regenerated tissue”
depends on an ideal relationship between the
osteoplastic capacity of the tissue that has been
stimulated and the degree of distractive stimulus
that has been applied. This will only take place if
the bone remains well vascularised.
Ilizarov has extended the concept of “organic
regeneration” of bone to other tissues (e.g. muscle,
tendon, blood vessels, nerve and skin), recognising
in all of them a capacity to grow in response to a
distractive stimulus, a principle accepted in the use
of soft tissue expanders. In practice, any living
tissue which is mechanically stressed responds by
growing in the direction of the stress.

And as I said before, this is just one of TONS of academic papers about this.
LL creates new soft tissue. Period.
 

This is a very interesting information. Probably most of us had this idea but it's useful to have a scientific confirmation

[BeYourBest]

Hi BetzLandLiberator,

Many thanks for your contribution.

Would it be possible if we can get a video of you walking/jogging, please?.

If you’re worried about privacy then you can wear a face mask or something similar? Perhaps with a hoody. You can just leave your phone on a stool/table/chair - similar to what Movie has done in the past.

It would really help us prospective patients!

Thanks,

All the best

[BetzLandLiberator]

Hi BetzLandLiberator,

Many thanks for your contribution.

Would it be possible if we can get a video of you walking/jogging, please?.

If you’re worried about privacy then you can wear a face mask or something similar? Perhaps with a hoody. You can just leave your phone on a stool/table/chair - similar to what Movie has done in the past.

It would really help us prospective patients!

Thanks,

All the best

Sorry, I'm not gonna post a video for me here.
I think I already revealed too much of my privacy to help people here.
But a video or photo is too much.

The best way to see a recovered LL veteran is to ask a LL doctor to see some patients that are coming back to take their nail out.
When I went back to Germany to have my nails taken out I talked with a good number of prospective Betz's patients.

[a]

BetzLandLiberator,

Could you please check your DM's?

[ZUCC420]

What is your point? This does not contradicts anything that I said.

My point is that the muscles and other soft tissue are not just stretched, new soft tissue is created. Of course in some cases the  tensile strength won't be the same. I even gave one example in my post (scar tissue due to too fast lengthening).

This is well researched (lots of academic papers about this, experiments done in rabbits, etc...) and one of the things I was careful in researching before I decided to do LL. I would never had done LL if it only stretched the soft tissues.

I see, with all the "I was careful in researching" you did before undergoing LL, the only thing that ticked you off and that you absolutely needed to make sure wasn't the case was soft tissue stretching. Not the other heap of potential dire straits such as :

1) tensile strength reduction of ligaments
2) susceptible to tendon/ligament tears and ruptures
3) unwieldy center of mass that holds back potential
4) uneven weight distribution of new artificial bone formation
5) Ultimate reduction in stamina/power/flexibility

[BetzLandLiberator]

I see, with all the "I was careful in researching" you did before undergoing LL, the only thing that ticked you off and that you absolutely needed to make sure wasn't the case was soft tissue stretching. Not the other heap of potential dire straits such as :

1) tensile strength reduction of ligaments
2) susceptible to tendon/ligament tears and ruptures
3) unwieldy center of mass that holds back potential
4) uneven weight distribution of new artificial bone formation
5) Ultimate reduction in stamina/power/flexibility

You putting words in my mouth. I never said that was the only thing I researched.
It was in the top of my priority, of course. Otherwise I wouldn't have done if LL was just some stretching of existent soft tissue.

[Polvorón]

I agree with BetzLandLiberator.

[BeYourBest]

Sorry, I'm not gonna post a video for me here.
I think I already revealed too much of my privacy to help people here.
But a video or photo is too much.

The best way to see a recovered LL veteran is to ask a LL doctor to see some patients that are coming back to take their nail out.
When I went back to Germany to have my nails taken out I talked with a good number of prospective Betz's patients.

Come on g it’ll help a brother out 10 fold.. let us see that you can walk,  jog and run like a normal person man especially considering you claim 100% recovery you get me !

Get that good karma points!

[Body Builder]

Although I had consultations with a good amount of the most well known LL doctors before my LL, I didn't get this information only from them. I did a very thorough scientific review of LL before I decided to actually do it. I have an academic background, so that was normal for me. I spent months reading all academic papers about LL that I could, specially the ones written by potential doctors (Betz, Paley, Guichet - they all have written tons of papers about LL).

Let me show you a very old paper (from 1987) that explicitly tells us that new soft tissue is created during LL. This is a well know fact for DECADES. It really drives me crazy that in this forum (and in the old one) people have this misconception that we are just stretching our legs during LL. That's insane! Here's the article (ScienceDirect link, then Pdf link):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000712268790186X#!

https://www.jprasurg.com/article/0007-1226(87)90186-X/pdf

Here's the relevant part:

In many of Ilizarov’s patients and those of other
authors (Krjur et al., 1985) there are reports of bone
being regenerated in limbs to lengths of more than
20 cm, by using single or multiple osteotomies. The
successful formation of this “regenerated tissue”
depends on an ideal relationship between the
osteoplastic capacity of the tissue that has been
stimulated and the degree of distractive stimulus
that has been applied. This will only take place if
the bone remains well vascularised.
Ilizarov has extended the concept of “organic
regeneration” of bone to other tissues (e.g. muscle,
tendon, blood vessels, nerve and skin), recognising
in all of them a capacity to grow in response to a
distractive stimulus, a principle accepted in the use
of soft tissue expanders. In practice, any living
tissue which is mechanically stressed responds by
growing in the direction of the stress.

And as I said before, this is just one of TONS of academic papers about this.
LL creates new soft tissue. Period.

LL creates new bone. Not soft tissue.
If it did, then we could have lengthen easily 15 cm in each bone (tibia and femur), not struggling to lengthen more than 7cm, especially on tibias.

So yes, bone regenerates but soft tissue only stretches to some degree. After that you have a permanent loss of ROM or tearings.
Everything else is bs and far from reality.

[Aquahoma2]

LL creates new bone. Not soft tissue.
If it did, then we could have lengthen easily 15 cm in each bone (tibia and femur), not struggling to lengthen more than 7cm, especially on tibias.

So yes, bone regenerates but soft tissue only stretches to some degree. After that you have a permanent loss of ROM or tearings.
Everything else is bs and far from reality.

It does create new soft tissue. The problem is that soft tissue does not grow as fast as bone does. When you lengthen a bone, soft tissue are stretched and then grow. LL is akin to some degree to natural growth process, but LL is a much faster process. Because of the speed of lengthening, you may result in damaging soft tissue.

[BetzLandLiberator]

It does create new soft tissue. The problem is that soft tissue does not grow as fast as bone does. When you lengthen a bone, soft tissue are stretched and then grow. LL is akin to some degree to natural growth process, but LL is a much faster process. Because of the speed of lengthening, you may result in damaging soft tissue.

For sure, you're exactly right. The lengthening is faster than the tissue regeneration, that's why you only really heal months or years later.

But I wasn't talking about people like you that knows this. I'm talking about people that think that LL ONLY stretches the soft tissues without regrowing at any time.