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[Uppland]

Hello everyone I am a 19 year old dude 178-179 cm tall (short) and I have been very down the last couple of months because of my stature. I had my doctor do an x-ray and he told me that while my legs are fused I still have the potential to grow a "couple more centimeters in my spine" whatever that means.

I still feel very bad however you've probably heard of the infamous tall northern european and for once the stereotypes are true. I am not the shortest around, actually most my friends are my height + - a couple of cm but in general I am short, and I feel positively dwarfed sometimes.

I imagine a lot of you will tell me to suck it up and fight the odds. After all they're not that bad really: I consider myself quite handsome, come from a academic household brought up to be somewhat learned and reasonably popular even -while trying not to sound self-indulgent- with the fairer sex.
However I simply can't let it off my mind, believe me I have tried for weeks on end. I am the only male in my family below 180 cm my dad the only other under 190, my sister is only 4 cm shy of me and my mom a decimeter less. Not only have I grown up around tall successful men I had come to expect myself to be one of them. I imagined from watching my parents and their families all very tall that I too would grow to be at least my fathers height (187) but no such luck.

I've got a sort of personal philosophy that drives me and that is to maximize my intrinsic quality. Essentially self-improvment; I want to be the "best" man I can be and to me height is a crucial part of that. I simply feel cheated I guess and though that may be an immature response I also feel hopelessnes, despair, frustration, sadness and bitterness.
Again many of you certainly think I should get on your level and yes I have deep respect for people shorter than me still living enviable lives but I have found I'm not strong like that. I don't think this will pass either I've only felt worse the last couple of months so I have decided I need to get taller to enjoy life like I previously did. Because I don't feel joy like I used to everytime I play the piano, go for a run or read a book (although in my recent depressed state I'm mostly on the computer) there is always that thought in the back of my head, it's there even when I stand up or raise my head to greet someone taller. I will never be satisfied with life until I am at least my dads height I just won't.

I am really sorry about the wall of text. I guess I needed to went that shlt. Anyway, I have some doubt about the ll surgery am I still welcome here? I would love to discuss these sort of things with people who I imagine feel the same way.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

Of course you're welcome here.  Everyone except SysOp is welcome to post here.  I think you'll find that quite a number of the members here share your feelings and concerns.  Glad to have you here!

[Taller]

Welcome to the forum! I think you'll be surprised to find that there are many here who can relate to you.

I definitely think I can. I am Northern European too (from a different country though) and have height neurosis at about your height. My father is 188CM and is the shortest of his brothers. I too expected to be my father's height at the very least. I think there's something about a boy being much shorter than his father that can cause an inferiority complex regardless of height. I've seen it quite a bit, although it generally isn't that common.

Do as much research as you can, familiarize yourself with the risks of LL, and, if you're still willing to make the sure sacrifices and potential sacrifices necessary to complete LL, start scheduling consultation with various doctors to see who would be the best fit for you. If it takes you a lot of time, or you decide that LL isn't for you, you're still welcome here. I wish you the best of luck and a happy life regardless of which path you choose to pursue.

[Uppland]

Well thanks mate I also realized I screwed up the title I meant to say that I'm not planning to do the procedure anytime soon.

Still I'm obsessed with being tall. Not sure if I could even be satisfied with anything under 190 cm I mean even if I grow 2 more cm and lenghten my legs or somehow get another 7 I'm 188 which (and I know this will sound weird) really isn't that tall where I live. The inability to change it, the finality of my height is what really gets me. If there was anthing else, something that didn't follow me wherever I went or could be fixed with hard work and dedication like most other problems I'd be fine but I just don't know how to deal with this.

[Wannabegiant]

Well thanks mate I also realized I screwed up the title I meant to say that I'm not planning to do the procedure anytime soon.

Still I'm obsessed with being tall. Not sure if I could even be satisfied with anything under 190 cm I mean even if I grow 2 more cm and lenghten my legs or somehow get another 7 I'm 188 which (and I know this will sound weird) really isn't that tall where I live. The inability to change it, the finality of my height is what really gets me. If there was anthing else, something that didn't follow me wherever I went or could be fixed with hard work and dedication like most other problems I'd be fine but I just don't know how to deal with this.

Tjena! Jag är också från Sverige och bor i samma landskap som du (Uppland) så jag vet lite hur du mår. Jag är 24 år och är nästan färdig med operationen, jag är nu samma längd som du är (179 cm) och jag var 175 innan operationen, så jag gjorde bara 4 cm. inom ca 1 månad kan jag ta bort ilizarov fixatorerna och leva som vanligt, men det dröjer nog minst ca 6 månader till innan jag återställts atletiskt 100%.

Jag kan säga så här, i Sverige är majoriteten av männen/grabbarna ca 180 cm, och om man inkluderar alla invandrare så är det ganska många som är under det. Jag håller med om att det inte är ovanligt att stöta på mycket större snubbar som är 190 osv.

I mitt fall ville jag bara bli average i längd. Och det räcker för att jag ska va glad. I ditt fall verkar det vara värre dock, som du pratar verkar det som du inte kommer bli nöjd även om du gjorde en förlängning på 6 cm och blev 185 (vilket är en mycket respektabel längd). Du borde tänka noga på att överväga alla uppoffringar du måste göra om du verkligen vill bli så lång. Gör du mer än 6 cm på ett segment så är risken betydligt större att du aldrig återhämtar dig 100%, men om du inte vill satsa på sport spelar det inte så stor roll. Det är väldigt mycket tid man måste uppoffra också, det tar otroligt lång tid att utföra denna operation, och att återhämta sig, speciellt om man vill förlänga mycket som du verkar vilja.

Jag tror dock det finns möjligthet att du blir 1-2 cm längre innan du växt klart, vilket borde vara ca när du är 21 år, så du har lång tid på dig att tänka igenom det här.

[GeTs]

Do 4 cm

[123]

I think you guys are over exaggerating, I'm form a country where the average height is pretty much the same as in Sweden and if you are around 5'9 you are fine. I think your problem is that you feel small not short, maybe you are skinny? Because there is a huge difference between a guy who is 180cm/70 kg and guy who is 180cm/90 kg. Try to hit a gym first. Also I think you are just blinded because you were born into a tall family, so you think everyone who is shorter than your father is automatically short but that's not true, because he is tall.   

I don't want to say that you aren't allowed to do LL because you're tall. Go for it if you want but I just want to tell that this is a brutal procedure, everyone underestimates this. Just think twice about this and please go to a psychiatrist, I'm sure one would really help you! Not because you're mentally ill but because you got a message that traumatized you.

And I can't even imagine how your family would even react to this decision, if you ever talk to them about this, let me know. I'm really interested.

[G-Man]

Damn, when I read "young swede" I thought you'd be a chick but it's ok, you are still welcome! 

[GeTs]

I think you guys are over exaggerating, I'm form a country where the average height is pretty much the same as in Sweden and if you are around 5'9 you are fine. I think your problem is that you feel small not short, maybe you are skinny? Because there is a huge difference between a guy who is 180cm/70 kg and guy who is 180cm/90 kg. Try to hit a gym first. Also I think you are just blinded because you were born into a tall family, so you think everyone who is shorter than your father is automatically short but that's not true, because he is tall.   

I don't want to say that you aren't allowed to do LL because you're tall. Go for it if you want but I just want to tell that this is a brutal procedure, everyone underestimates this. Just think twice about this and please go to a psychiatrist, I'm sure one would really help you! Not because you're mentally ill but because you got a message that traumatized you.

And I can't even imagine how your family would even react to this decision, if you ever talk to them about this, let me know. I'm really interested.

psychiatrist is always a bad idea

[Polycrates.]

Do 4.5cm/5cm tib/femur if you can afford it. This will put you over your father's height and you'll be proportionate in the legs. Good luck.

[GeTs]

Do 4.5cm/5cm tib/femur if you can afford it. This will put you over your father's height and you'll be proportionate in the legs. Good luck.

poly but why not just 6-5 cm on tibs, I mean 184-185 surely won't be bad if he says he's handsome

[TRS]

For a guy who is 5'10 +, the best advice I can give them is to do up to 6cm tibias with externals. The least invasive method in LL and avoids permanent knee pain. If you aren't satisfied with 184-185cm then do internals up to 7cm max. But I don't see any benefit from doing LL when your 6ft or above. The advantage of being 5'10 or 5'11 is that you can do one surgery and become 183+ and with shoes on then you can be around 6'1 or 6'2. There are not much studies showing clear long effects of LL and therefore the less you lengthen may actually be much better. Who knows that the added pressure on the knee and ankle joints from LL may deplete the articular cartilage over time along with the general wear and tear associated with ageing? The less we modify our legs the better it is! But unfortunately, many of us here have faced discrimination throughout out entire lives and the pressure from society have exceeded our coping threshold. A lot of us are young when we consider and do LL but in another 20-30 years will we be happy with our decisions?
Anyways, of course you are welcome and please research about this procedure until you are fully aware of the entire LL process and the complications of it. Then be honest with yourself whether LL will truly make you happy.   

[Polycrates.]

Everyday I wish I'd done less than 6cm. The height is good, but my joints are so stiff that I walk like a crippled old man. I'd trade those 2cm away for decent joint movement in an instant. I think 6cm on the tibiae is too much. Maybe I'll change my tune if I can ever improve to some form of normalcy in the future.

[GeTs]

Everyday I wish I'd done less than 6cm. The height is good, but my joints are so stiff that I walk like a crippled old man. I'd trade those 2cm away for decent joint movement in an instant. I think 6cm on the tibiae is too much. Maybe I'll change my tune if I can ever improve to some form of normalcy in the future.

I still think for a 5'10 + guy 4-4,5 cm on tibs will be the best choice as it keeps tibs/femur ratio natural

[123]

psychiatrist is always a bad idea

Why?

I'm pretty sure every professional orthopedic surgeon will send you to a psychatrist before even comsidering to do LL on you. Because there are a lot of people who do diagnose themself with height-neurosis whereas it could be something entierly else.

[Uppland]

Thanks everyone you seem like cool people and sorry for the late answers -I fell asleep.
I have researched ll first at the old forum and later when I realized people there were, well, weird I found this place. I am very sceptical to the surgery and I doubt I will do it anytime soon -if ever.

I have been following a blog called natural_height_growth.com. Some of you may have seen me there I somitimes comment under the name "Julius" (not my real name).
The surgery is still interesting to me but while I'm whilling to sacifice money, pain and ,with reluctance, time I won't throw away my bodys ability to run, climb, walk etc. I am an active person nothing less than complete recovery is unacceptable to me so if I actually do it I'll probably go with like 4 cm or something.

@wannabegiant
Alltid kul att se landsmän när man surfar i cyberrymden festligt att du är upplänning. Tycker dock grabbarna i min ålder snittar över 180 med råge. Rent officiellt är medel för det unga längdspannet 181.5 vad jag förstått men ärligt talat så är 185+ väldigt vanligt. Skulle tveka att kalla någon lång under 190 och jag är som sagt besatt av att vara just "lång".

Är du säker på att du kommer bli fullständigt återställd? -Det är väldigt viktigt för mig.

[Uppland]

For a guy who is 5'10 +, the best advice I can give them is to do up to 6cm tibias with externals. The least invasive method in LL and avoids permanent knee pain. If you aren't satisfied with 184-185cm then do internals up to 7cm max. But I don't see any benefit from doing LL when your 6ft or above. The advantage of being 5'10 or 5'11 is that you can do one surgery and become 183+ and with shoes on then you can be around 6'1 or 6'2. There are not much studies showing clear long effects of LL and therefore the less you lengthen may actually be much better. Who knows that the added pressure on the knee and ankle joints from LL may deplete the articular cartilage over time along with the general wear and tear associated with ageing? The less we modify our legs the better it is! But unfortunately, many of us here have faced discrimination throughout out entire lives and the pressure from society have exceeded our coping threshold. A lot of us are young when we consider and do LL but in another 20-30 years will we be happy with our decisions?
Anyways, of course you are welcome and please research about this procedure until you are fully aware of the entire LL process and the complications of it. Then be honest with yourself whether LL will truly make you happy.

Good read thanks for being realistic about this. Leg lenghtening do seem like a horrible procedure and I'll keep it as a last desperate resort. Unfortunately its not so much that I think my life would improve slightly (doubtful) by going under the knife I simply feel like I need to be taller before I continue on with my life if ll is the only way then I guess I'm out of options but I'll think long and hard about I really don't want to do it.

[Greek-Semidget]

hmm 5'10 fantastic starting height, if you can afford internals 50k with dr Jamal go for 3 inches oh femurs, if not go to Russia do 2 -2.5 inches on tibias and call it a day.

[Wannabegiant]

I think you guys are over exaggerating, I'm form a country where the average height is pretty much the same as in Sweden and if you are around 5'9 you are fine. I think your problem is that you feel small not short, maybe you are skinny? Because there is a huge difference between a guy who is 180cm/70 kg and guy who is 180cm/90 kg. Try to hit a gym first. Also I think you are just blinded because you were born into a tall family, so you think everyone who is shorter than your father is automatically short but that's not true, because he is tall.   

I don't want to say that you aren't allowed to do LL because you're tall. Go for it if you want but I just want to tell that this is a brutal procedure, everyone underestimates this. Just think twice about this and please go to a psychiatrist, I'm sure one would really help you! Not because you're mentally ill but because you got a message that traumatized you.

And I can't even imagine how your family would even react to this decision, if you ever talk to them about this, let me know. I'm really interested.

I live in Sweden too and im 178-179 now..I agree with this post.

[Wannabegiant]

Thanks everyone you seem like cool people and sorry for the late answers -I fell asleep.
I have researched ll first at the old forum and later when I realized people there were, well, weird I found this place. I am very sceptical to the surgery and I doubt I will do it anytime soon -if ever.

I have been following a blog called natural_height_growth.com. Some of you may have seen me there I somitimes comment under the name "Julius" (not my real name).
The surgery is still interesting to me but while I'm whilling to sacifice money, pain and ,with reluctance, time I won't throw away my bodys ability to run, climb, walk etc. I am an active person nothing less than complete recovery is unacceptable to me so if I actually do it I'll probably go with like 4 cm or something.

@wannabegiant
Alltid kul att se landsmän när man surfar i cyberrymden festligt att du är upplänning. Tycker dock grabbarna i min ålder snittar över 180 med råge. Rent officiellt är medel för det unga längdspannet 181.5 vad jag förstått men ärligt talat så är 185+ väldigt vanligt. Skulle tveka att kalla någon lång under 190 och jag är som sagt besatt av att vara just "lång".

Är du säker på att du kommer bli fullständigt återställd? -Det är väldigt viktigt för mig.

Det är möjligt att den yngre generation snittar lite högre, dock så pekar nästan alla studier jag läst på att medellängden inte kommer kunna ökas betydligt i länder som redan är utvecklade med hög levnadstandard (som Sverige). Kanske 1-2 cm högre medellängd för män inom 30 år, men med fortsatt invandring så tvivlar jag starkt på det. Även för etniska svenskar så tror jag inte medellängden kommer öka noterbart, det finns en gräns för sånt här och jag tror medellängden I Sverige redan har stabiliserats. 190 snubbar kommer aldrig vara majoriteten.

Ingen kan bevisa att 100% återhämtning är möjlig rent tekniskt, eftersom vi inte har någon patient som har gjort operationen ch kommit tillbaka efter många år och som är på proffsnivå inom idrott. Dock så finns det många patienter som påstår att de kan göra allt de kunde tidigare efter operationen, och de levde aktiva liv även fast de inte var elit idrottare, dessa personer gjorde betydligt mer än 4 cm också.

Min doctor påstår att jag kommer bli fullt återställd. All research jag läst tyder på att om jag håller mig till 4 cm så förändras inte femur-tibia ration utöver det som förekommer naturligt (detta baserat på mina egna proportioner jämfört med studier). Och musklerna ska kunna anpassas utan att försvagas till ca 15% förlängning av originallängden av benen.

Jag har hållt mig inom alla dessa riskgränser så det enda jag kan behöva oroa mig för i framtiden är väl möjligen ledsmärta eller artritis, men det finns supplement som kan hjälpa att förebygga sånt så jag är inte så orolig.

[Uppland]

Har också läst att längdökningen avstannat men den är hög nog som den är. Om du fick välja vilken längd som helst hur lång skulle du bli och varför? Har funderat på det en del kommer nog göra en sådan tråd ifall det inte redan finns.

Jag hoppas allt går bra för dig med återhämtningen och så. Vem vet? Jag kanske följer i dina fotspår. Kommer du att hålla oss uppdaterade på din återhämtningsprocess?

[Polycrates.]

English would be more considerate, boys...

[Wannabegiant]

Har också läst att längdökningen avstannat men den är hög nog som den är. Om du fick välja vilken längd som helst hur lång skulle du bli och varför? Har funderat på det en del kommer nog göra en sådan tråd ifall det inte redan finns.

Jag hoppas allt går bra för dig med återhämtningen och så. Vem vet? Jag kanske följer i dina fotspår. Kommer du att hålla oss uppdaterade på din återhämtningsprocess?

Jag har en rätt så detaljerad dagbok på denna sida i patient sektionen. Där kan du läsa om allt jag har behövt göra för att komma så här långt, hoppas den är till hjälp för ditt framtida beslut om LL.

Om jag fick välja vilken längd som helst..alltså optimal längd för en man känns som 6'1- 6'2 eller ca 185-188 cm. Då har man alla fördelar med att va lång och inga nackdelar. Längre än så och man börjar bli definierad helt efter sin längd typ, och oftast folk som är 190+ är mindre atletiska och smidiga än kortare män. (finns undantag i NFL och NBA osv, men dessa individer är som nålar i en höstack, väldigt ovanliga)

Men baserat på min identitet och som folk känner mig, så skulle jag aldrig kunna tänka mig att förlänga till 6'2 även om möjligheten fanns och jag kunde bevara min proportion. Det skulle förändra mig för mycket och folk skulle reagera kraftigt. Om jag kunde återfödas dock hade 6'2 vart optimalt, hoppas jag gjorde mig förstådd nu :p

[Wannabegiant]

English would be more considerate, boys...

yeah sorry bout that, lets have the rest of the discussion in english Uppland?

[Uppland]

I chatted a bit with wannabegiant about the average height in sweden and we agreed it probably stopped increasing or will stop soon. I asked him about recovery since a full recovery is very important to me and the main reason I'm doubtful I'll ever perform this surgery. Also asked him how tall his ideal would be he said "roughly 6'2".

I've been thinking alot about what height range is "perfect". I realize it's individual so it would be cool to hear what you guys think and why. Maybe I'll start a new thread or you can just post here.

Personally I think 190-195 (6'3 - 6'5) would be pretty much ideal but I'll hardly ever reach that height unfortunately. I wouldn't mind being 195+ but I also think it's kind of pointless at 6'4 or something I would be labeled clearly tall everywhere on earth. No real drawbacks I don't buy the "short people are healthier" my grandad is about 190 (he's shrunk) and he's 96 years old I think. Also possible to put on muscle at 6'4 big plus for me maybe plane rides can get uncomfortable but being one of the tallest people around at all times would be so worth it. Still 6'2 is a good height I feel like I can't really complain if I somehow make it to eye level with dad (187).

[Wannabegiant]

I chatted a bit with wannabegiant about the average height in sweden and we agreed it probably stopped increasing or will stop soon. I asked him about recovery since a full recovery is very important to me and the main reason I'm doubtful I'll ever perform this surgery. Also asked him how tall his ideal would be he said "roughly 6'2".

I've been thinking alot about what height range is "perfect". I realize it's individual so it would be cool to hear what you guys think and why. Maybe I'll start a new thread or you can just post here.

Personally I think 190-195 (6'3 - 6'5) would be pretty much ideal but I'll hardly ever reach that height unfortunately. I wouldn't mind being 195+ but I also think it's kind of pointless at 6'4 or something I would be labeled clearly tall everywhere on earth. No real drawbacks I don't buy the "short people are healthier" my grandad is about 190 (he's shrunk) and he's 96 years old I think. Also possible to put on muscle at 6'4 big plus for me maybe plane rides can get uncomfortable but being one of the tallest people around at all times would be so worth it. Still 6'2 is a good height I feel like I can't really complain if I somehow make it to eye level with dad (187).

What i meant by taller people on average being less athletic, is that the brain typically cannot operate a larger frame at the same speed as a smaller one, what this means in practice is that bigger individuals have worse coordination and slower reaction speeds to smaller individuals, they cannot move their limbs as fast either.

Exceptions to the rule exists but they are very rare. Also the bigger the frame you have the more difficult it is to become very muscular so to speak. The 6'4 dudes who are super muscular are almost always are on steroids or something similar, while shorter dudes in many cases can reach a similar looking physique with less effort and even without steroids.

[Uppland]

You're right bigger frame comes with a certain clumsiness that's why I think maybe 6'6+ is less than ideal. More height however provides certain benefits as well. There is not a huge difference between a 6'2 and a 6'4 man but overall the latter will be slightly more charistmatic (all things equal), slightly more attractive, slightly more respected, confident etc. 6'2 is still exellent and in let's say france I would agree it may be preferable.
I like to think of 6'2 in sweden as being roughly equivalent to a 6'-6'1 guy in the US or UK: technically tall but not quite there yet. I'm biased towards taller heights I know, but I really do believe that having a bit of an excessive stature is preferable to nnot measuring up sometimes.

For example a woman would rather have her mate be 30 cm taller than 10 cm even though 20 cm may be "ideal". I say it's better to be tall in all situations than mostly tall. -It's also just short of 190 cm psychological barrier eh? In northern europe you're not "really" tall until you've passed the 180 -range.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

what are you trying to over compensate for?

what other (lack of) attributes do you not have which make you think that you need to be the tallest man in the world to earn respect.

its not normal to think you need to be the tallest man in the world, across everyone you will ever meet in life, till the day you die, in order to be respected. you are missing something and its not height. welcome to reality.

you are trying to attain a height so that no matter what happens in life you will ALWAYS BE THE TALLEST.

it is psychological. and you rationalize it under the philosophy that being taller will gain more respect.

this is true when you go from average height (anywhere in the world) to 2.5 inches above the average, then gains become EXPONENTIALLY DIMINISHING to the point where you very quickly after that gain no benefit except in your own mind, this is a psychological issue.


every psychological issue is built on a real issue but taken to the extremes where that philosophy is no longer relevant to the argument, In your case your "gain more respect" no longer applies to your scenario (at these over reaching heights), showing a deviation from your rational.

(if the average is 5"9.5 then the standard deviations of significance become 5"7 and 6"0)
(if the average is 5"11.5 (Sweden, 2008, 20-29 yrs old) then the standard deviations of significance become 5"9 and 6"2)

anything higher will give you close to nothing at an exponential rate, if you still desire height after this figure then you need counseling and therapy.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

ps the average for Sweden when age is not a factor is (5"10) 177.9cm.

so your argument (in which you rationalize the height you "need") which dictates the average being 5"11.5 is flawed. because height in the mind of the female is decided not necessarily out of the males of potential dating pool, but rather could be argued that it is derived out of normalcy bias from people she knows.

therefore it is inconclusive to state either as correct.

[Overdozer]

For example a woman would rather have her mate be 30 cm taller

Men on average are 13 cm taller, than women. That preference should be viewed as a fetish, no more, as it's statistically impossible for every woman to have someone who's even 20 cm taller.

Honestly, you've got too much crap in your head. I must admit, I had it all too. Height isn't the only thing in the world, as many of us get to think, you shouldn't focus on it that much, unless the only thing you're trying to do is to impress some club sluts and should I say, that's a stupid idea. And last time I've checked, young swedes are on average 181 cm tall, you're 2 centimeters below and you call yourself short, that doesn't make sense.

[Uppland]

Ha that's what I deserve for being shallow and immature I guess. I admit it makes little logical sense, still if I had one wish I would choose to be taller. You're right about one thing though 6'2 should be enough for me and for anyone anyhting more will be quite pointless I suppose.

Can't shake these thoughts I'm afraid I've tried. I do feel a sort of need actually to be at least my fathers height, do think it's possible too especially if I'll grow another 2 cm -anyone got tips on how to increase that chance? Supplements, exercise or habits maybe?

Recognize height has an inflated value in my head, many strange things do, but at least I want to be taller to please myself and no one else. Also 2 cm below the mean may not sound bad and I suppose it's decent enough but to me it doesn't feel that way. I don't feel like I could be an adult while shorter than most (no offence to anyone shorter than me you guys have me beat when it comes to confidence I suppose) and yes, even though few people talk about it I really do think I would be taken more seriously if I was 10 cm taller.

Height is such a passive, all encompassing and personal trait that I believe it's the esception to the rule of "accepting yourself". Always been an ambitious fellow, I'm annoyed beyond belief that my body doesn't match the way I feel.

Also the average for guys my age may be 181-182 but really a lot (like seriously I could swear most guys) of young men are taller than that.