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Author Topic: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov  (Read 1759 times)

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limon

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LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« on: July 10, 2024, 06:01:18 PM »

I underwent tibial LON in Moscow, the surgeon was Bagirov. As a result, I grew about 5 cm, underwent 5 surgeries, wasted 1.5 years of my life and was disappointed in most doctors.

Before the operation, there were no discussions about complications, even with specific questions Bagirov refused to answer them: "If I answer, I will be scared myself and will not do anything". Later it turned out that the clinic where he operates does not even have an intensive care unit and by law it is forbidden to perform operations with intra-bone implants there.



On the day of the first operation (installation of a nail) I arrived at the place, waited for about 20 minutes, then I was taken to the hospital room and here's the fun, in 15 square meters 3 patients and inoperable ventilation! Anesthesia, about the professionalism of one of the anesthesiologists I'd rather keep silent, during spinal anesthesia he stupidly missed, it was fking painful! Probably because of the bad injection I did not take anesthesia for a long time, I had to wait for about 40 minutes and even after that during the insertion of the nail in the first leg I felt a little pain, I reported it, but I was told that everything is normal, you can't feel anything, you're making it up! The nail entry hole was stitched incorrectly, so there was a rough scar, a hypertrophic scar.

After the surgery, they installed a urinary catheter and removed it only on the 3rd day, because the nurses either did not know how to remove them or did not want to, eventually removed the one who put it. In subsequent surgeries it was not put in at all.

Pain in the first days, painful but tolerable, I could walk, but it was very painful to bend my legs. Stayed in the hospital for 5 days and went to the apartment



Second surgery (bone fracture and installation of external fixation apparatus).
2 weeks passed. In a ward of 15 meters again 3 patients and nothing to breathe, anesthesia was better, but still had to wait for about 30 minutes.

On the second day I was able to stand on a walker, but it is very hard to take a step, it is also hard to urinate in a duck while lying down. The pain at the fracture site was strong, but I was given painkillers, in principle, it was tolerable. He stayed 3 days in the hospital and left.



Lengthening.
It was 0.75mm/day The first couple of days were fine, then Bagirov said that I should twist 2mm a day (why? Just for a boost), 2 more days passed, that's when the pain started, the top of the foot started to pull strongly, one morning lifting my foot, I experienced a very strong pain and cramp, I did not twist more than 2mm a day. Then I did 0.75/day on a 5/2 schedule, after 3.5 cm I did 0.5-0.75 on a 4/3 schedule. The most pain begins after 3 cm, no non-narcotic drugs they are not eliminated, partially helped stretching and caloric food.

During the lengthening I had several infections, problems with extension, pain, doctors only did paid X-rays and tomography, no examinations, even when I said that I had problems, they always said - "everything is fine, it's normal". Once, when I complained a lot about infection, they took a paid smear and the result was given only in 2 weeks, when I wrote to them several times.

After 3cm the device itself began to bend, in the end, out of the 6.5cm in ilizarov device, I got about  real 4.5cm on the bones and +0.5 cm due to the correction of curvature. The twists took 3.5 months, and the appliance was removed only after 6 months from the time of installation. Because Bagirov is often away and you still have to make an appointment with him 2 weeks in advance.


3 surgery (removal of the device and nail lock). Before the removal of the apparatus, I had been complaining for more than a month about my right leg being out of alignment, I had x-rays taken and was assured each time that everything was normal and would straighten out after the apparatus was removed. During the 3rd surgery I had the device removed, the pain was only the first day, I did not take painkillers. After 2 weeks, my right leg was still not unbent, and there were terrible pains in the left foot. I took an X-ray, and again they told me that everything was fine, although I could see that the right leg was not particularly straight. I went to 10 doctors, only a few could see antecurvation, but even they could not measure its angle, the rest just took money for examination and advised physical therapy. In the end I studied Solomin's article on angles of lower limbs and was able to calculate this angle. After 1 months, I could already walk without support, but my right leg never  fully unbent. After numerous complaints, Bagirov bothered to look at the lateral projection X-ray and confirmed antecurvation, and on both legs! In the end, we agreed to remove it during nail removal

4th surgery. It has been 10 months since the 1st surgery. Now I am supposed to get the nails out and have the hardware put back in, but, but I was cheated! When I was already in the ward and paid for everything, came Bagirov and said that today only remove the nails, and put the devices in a month .... Either agree or leave.

I had my nails removed. On X-ray it was obvious that there was still a bad bone callus, but Bagirov assured me that everything was normal. After the surgery I experienced pain while walking, but I was told it was the muscles just getting used to it


5 surgery. I was fitted with a device, but only on my right leg, although Bagirov himself said that he would put it on both legs, no X-rays were taken before the operation. Antecurvation on the right leg was corrected, but as it turned out later, due to premature removal of nails, the left leg curved a few degrees ...

The first 2 days there was severe pain due to the straightening of the muscle, then it subsided, the leg was straightened by about 10 degrees, I was able to walk unsupported after 1.5 weeks


From my story you can understand that you should not trust this doctor, he does not care about the client, you need to find and point out the problem and prove it to him, if I did not have financial opportunities and I was a foreigner, I would probably stay crippled.

The clinic itself (ООО «Клиника Научной Медицины»), has many violations, there work frankly bad doctors, most of them only profit from people's problems, frankly mock, it should be closed in general.


Now it has been 15 days since the removal of the device from the right leg, like the leg is straight and the result seems acceptable, but not excellent, this month I will do a control X-ray, I will write the result, you can ask questions.


« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 08:23:53 PM by limon »
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lucindaris

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2024, 10:42:09 PM »

Interesting. How much did you pay for it?
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limon

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2024, 05:18:01 AM »

Interesting. How much did you pay for it?

prices are in russian rubles, rubles are highly volatile in current periods, also I was probably given a lower price because I am not a foreigner. Also in their messages they always quote prices lower than they come out in practice (they do not take into account tests, hospitalization and anesthesia, x-rays)

1.5 years ago they wrote a price of 500k rub(7k $) for LON(without nail removal), but in reality need to pay 680k rub (about 10k $).
Nail removal - 120k rub(discounted price, 1.5k $).
The correction surgery was almost free(about 500$), because they are obliged by the documents to correct, but to make them do it I had to try harder.

I spent about 12k $ on the clinic alone. But again, I'm not a foreigner, for a foreigner it will probably come out more expensive and the chance of being cheated is even higher.
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financialadvisor

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2024, 09:53:02 PM »

Why you didin't go to Saint Petersburg or Kurgan if you're Russian?

What is general concensus about LL in Russian, is it that popular, because you mentioned 3 patients in the surgery room?

From my Solomin pricing notes back in 2014-2015 here's his prices in rubles:
We consider admissible:
in municipal clinic – 148.600 (Conventional Ilizarov or LATN – first step)
+ 3 days in clinic:
4.400x3=13.200 (single room)
4.700 x3=14.100 (lux room)
OR
in municipal clinic – 148.600 (LON – first step)
+ cost of 2 nails:
23.000x2 = 46.000 (Russian nails)
57.500x2 = 115.000 (American nails)
+ 3 days in clinic:
4.400x3=13.200 (single room)
4.700 x3=14.100 (lux room)

I was always interested in Solomin, hopefully he will start using precise one day.

Hope you will get back to normal life soon!
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Beemer m3

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2024, 08:44:46 AM »

dam u did 6.5 cm with frames and only got 4.5 cm? whats up with that. i feel my leg isnt straight and the muscle/bone is kind of crooked. im not sure what i can do about it. i think at the time my frames were misalign at the time. ive gain 5.5cm measured in the bone only took 2 months of lengthening.
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before 168cm current 173.5 cm
ilizarov tibia
sept 2023

goal 2025-26 precice max femur

limon

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2024, 09:18:21 AM »

Why you didin't go to Saint Petersburg or Kurgan if you're Russian?

What is general concensus about LL in Russian, is it that popular, because you mentioned 3 patients in the surgery room?

From my Solomin pricing notes back in 2014-2015 here's his prices in rubles:
We consider admissible:
in municipal clinic – 148.600 (Conventional Ilizarov or LATN – first step)
+ 3 days in clinic:
4.400x3=13.200 (single room)
4.700 x3=14.100 (lux room)
OR
in municipal clinic – 148.600 (LON – first step)
+ cost of 2 nails:
23.000x2 = 46.000 (Russian nails)
57.500x2 = 115.000 (American nails)
+ 3 days in clinic:
4.400x3=13.200 (single room)
4.700 x3=14.100 (lux room)

I was always interested in Solomin, hopefully he will start using precise one day.

Hope you will get back to normal life soon!

According to my information Solomin is no longer engaged in these operations in cosmetics, instead of him now operates Kulesh. According to reviews on a Russian-language forum, Kulesh has a dubious reputation and prices for 2020 more than 1 million rubles(>13k$) for a simple Ilizarov device (without nails)

Kurgan, kurgan has maximum height requirements, no more than 170, also the conditions there are hospital-like, this place does not look attractive for this procedure.

And both of these places offer external fixators that are not comfortable, Bagirov's half rings seemed more comfortable and practical to me, and the price and reputation looked better.
Unfortunately, after the operation he was no longer interested in my condition, he was even too lazy to measure the axes of lateral projection, even with strong complaints, he only pretended to look, everything was handed over to the assistant, who does not seem to know how to do it.


What is general concensus about LL in Russian, is it that popular, because you mentioned 3 patients in the surgery room?
In Baghirov's case, he does maybe 40 lengthenings without nails a year, but I'm not sure if this is true. LON rarely, maybe 4 a year. He mostly does deformity corrections.

There were people in the ward with different problems, stomach, back and so on. Lots of people in a small area, hard to breathe, can't even stand up freely. According to the sanitary norms of Russia, such an organization should be fined for such a thing

« Last Edit: July 12, 2024, 11:10:35 AM by limon »
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lucindaris

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2024, 09:43:42 AM »

I see so you are disatisfied with the service, right? Do you think it would be better to do LON in different country?
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limon

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2024, 10:02:48 AM »

dam u did 6.5 cm with frames and only got 4.5 cm? whats up with that. i feel my leg isnt straight and the muscle/bone is kind of crooked. im not sure what i can do about it. i think at the time my frames were misalign at the time. ive gain 5.5cm measured in the bone only took 2 months of lengthening.

It is normal to observe a difference of up to 0.5-1 cm between the readings on the device rods and the bone. This is due to the tension of the spokes and muscles.

In my case, the upper spokes of the apparatus began to bend, not withstanding my weight, it did not cause a strong displacement of the bones due to the presence of the internal nail, but took away about 1,5 cm, minor displacements I corrected myself, but, unfortunately, I also had a lateral deformity of the right leg (antecurvation), which no one wanted to notice, as a result I had to do a second operation, as I have already written above.

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limon

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2024, 10:39:23 AM »

I see so you are disatisfied with the service, right? Do you think it would be better to do LON in different country?

If you don't know Russian, if you don't have legal protection, if you don't have money, if you can't cure yourself, you can't go to this doctor.

After the operation, no one is interested in you there, they only say that everything is normal, the clinic will not fulfill sanitary norms. In case of complications, you will have to fight with doctors who do not want to fix anything.

In my case, if the doctor had just looked at the x-rays normally before removing the external device, I would have been normal 6-8 months after the surgery, but because of negligence this story lasts almost 1,5 years and secondary problems were obtained because of the long time.

I can't say anything about other countries, probably the above will apply to most others as well. I probably wouldn't recommend LON in Russia.
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Body Builder

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2024, 01:46:20 PM »

Another bad case from Russian doctors who don't even honour the name of their ancestor, Gavriil Ilizarov, without whom we wouldn't even be able to become taller.
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AnotherLLer

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2024, 07:18:57 PM »

After thinking about all the pros & cons of going for cheap surgeons, I came to a definite conclusion that it doesn't worth it to do LL unless you can afford top 3 surgeons in the world. I'd rather remain non-deformed and functional at my current height rather than become taller and have deformed legs with severe crippling.
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financialadvisor

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2024, 11:04:58 PM »

What are your top 3 excl. US? Dr. Giotikas, Dr. Lee maybe?
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saltedchocolate

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2024, 11:28:24 PM »

What are your top 3 excl. US? Dr. Giotikas, Dr. Lee maybe?

id say Dr Birkholtz, Dr Lee and Dr Gdalvich
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7 cm gained on tibias via LON .  Had complications, Healed and moved on with life.

limon

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2024, 04:14:58 PM »

Greetings, I have had a CT scan and have in fact the final result of the bone structure.

As described before, the left leg has a slight O-curvature (varus) and a little anticurvature, also it has a 1cm lowering of the patella.
The right leg is normal in angles, but has a rotation of about 5 degrees and has become 2mm longer than the left leg, originally it was the other way around.

Information about standards and measurement methods taken from https://library.rniito.org/download/manuals/Opredelenie_referentnykh_liniy.pdf

Anterior perspective before:
.

After:
The left axis can be considered normal, but the tibia itself is 83 degrees and the norm (85-90).
The right axis can even be called the initial X, but the degree of the tibia itself is normal.


Left leg (change of almost 4 degrees):


Right leg (almost the same as before lengthening, but additional surgery was performed):
.

The patella on the left has become 1cm lower than the right, you can see this without x-rays:

« Last Edit: July 23, 2024, 05:00:20 PM by limon »
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financialadvisor

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2024, 04:58:56 PM »

Dr Birkholtz big no, who would go to Africa for LL? Far, high corruption and costs are the same as EU
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financialadvisor

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2024, 08:49:03 PM »

So this is the result of poor post op care? What are the potential long-term effects of a 2mm misalignment? Can physiotherapy help address curvature issues?"
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Body Builder

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2024, 09:15:10 PM »

I don't see anything bad to he honest. There is no way that you lost 2cm due to misalignment as you wrote.

So I don't know how much is the added height but you should have got the same as you lengthened or at max 0,5cm less. No way 2cm.
Also, 2mm discrepancy is absolutely nothing. Most people have more than that without ever doing LL.
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AnotherLLer

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2024, 06:36:34 AM »

Bagirov doesn't give a fk about his patients AFAIK, he just moves on when he's done with you at OP table.

Regarding top 3 docs right now, since Paley is retired, IMO, I would go for these 3 docs in priority order:

1. Lee in Korea (IMO he's best after seeing he's various results, especially for tibia LON, he's unmatched and produces excellent results)
2. Rozbruch in USA (He's very experienced and has been researching the subject alongside Paley for decades)
3. IDK about third one, but I'd go with whoever is best after Lee and Rozbruch most probably, but only if I couldn't afford Lee and Rozbruch in the first place.
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limon

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2024, 09:56:52 AM »

I don't see anything bad to he honest. There is no way that you lost 2cm due to misalignment as you wrote.

So I don't know how much is the added height but you should have got the same as you lengthened or at max 0,5cm less. No way 2cm.
Also, 2mm discrepancy is absolutely nothing. Most people have more than that without ever doing LL.


Almost 6.5cm was twisted out on the Ilizarov rods (normal loss from this number is 0.5-1cm)
In the post above you can see the deformation of the spokes, this took away about 1,5 cm. The bent spokes didn't cause much bone deformation due to the presence of the internal nail, but reduced the final height.

A 2mm difference in leg length is not a problem, that is true, but in my case the left tibia was 4mm longer than the right.

In addition there is a slight rotational deformity and lateral deformity which should not bring severe problems, but a normal doctor should have corrected this when the ilizarov was on his feet.


So this is the result of poor post op care? What are the potential long-term effects of a 2mm misalignment? Can physiotherapy help address curvature issues?"

As noted, 2mm is not a problem, but in my case the shorter leg turned into a longer leg. Perhaps the real difference in my legs now will be more than 2 mm due to the difference in foot and other adaptations that have been throughout my previous life.

I point out the differences, not to say I was maimed, but to describe the full result.

In my case I would say I got a questionable result, I don't see any major problems now, but even for that result I needed additional surgeries.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2024, 10:18:06 AM by limon »
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Bob

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2024, 01:12:24 PM »

Greetings, I have had a CT scan and have in fact the final result of the bone structure.

As described before, the left leg has a slight O-curvature (varus) and a little anticurvature, also it has a 1cm lowering of the patella.
The right leg is normal in angles, but has a rotation of about 5 degrees and has become 2mm longer than the left leg, originally it was the other way around.

Information about standards and measurement methods taken from https://library.rniito.org/download/manuals/Opredelenie_referentnykh_liniy.pdf

Anterior perspective before:
.

After:
The left axis can be considered normal, but the tibia itself is 83 degrees and the norm (85-90).
The right axis can even be called the initial X, but the degree of the tibia itself is normal.



Can you please tell me where and with which doctor can I make this very informative measurements of my legs with x-ray/scan?
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limon

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2024, 02:14:15 PM »


Can you please tell me where and with which doctor can I make this very informative measurements of my legs with x-ray/scan?

On my screenshots - computed tomography scan of the lower extremities(CT Lower Extremity).

I think this procedure can be obtained in any country, look for this procedure near you.
They should describe your legs, give you a disk with your scans, you can open the study on a computer with a program like www.radiantviewer.com .
It may be possible to get an EOS procedure (less radiation) in your country.

If you do not have a CT scan in your country, you can have a full legs x-ray in several projections. Talk to your doctors and they will suggest a solution.
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Bob

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Re: LON tibia in Moscow. Bagirov
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2024, 02:51:29 PM »

On my screenshots - computed tomography scan of the lower extremities(CT Lower Extremity).

I think this procedure can be obtained in any country, look for this procedure near you.
They should describe your legs, give you a disk with your scans, you can open the study on a computer with a program like www.radiantviewer.com .
It may be possible to get an EOS procedure (less radiation) in your country.

If you do not have a CT scan in your country, you can have a full legs x-ray in several projections. Talk to your doctors and they will suggest a solution.

Thank limon. Good luck with your legs.
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