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[AnotherLLer]

I can't stress it enough. It simply sucks being 5'5 with masculine frame and pretty (yet manly) face. I look like Johnny Bravo due to my relatively short leg-to-body ratio. Even though my tibia:femur ratio is ideal and my legs in general are perfectly aligned and look very manly, they are just short for my body and I look squarish due to big and wide frame. I have naturally wide shoulders, I don't even work out and still look like a truck.

These combination of traits make me look cartoonish and only thing that I lack is height and only in legs, not in torso. Even 4 inches total will suffice (2 + 2 split in tibia and femur). 5'9 with relatively long legs will be enough for me in order to get past that cartoonish look.

Now, the main topic:

When I wear manly clothes I get tons of attention from women of all ages and I kinda feel awkward because I know that they see me attractive but due to that cartoonish, Johnny Bravo proportions at 5'5, I'm 100% certain that majority of them (at least really good looking ones) see me as a toy, i.e. they would fk with me but avoid serious relationship due to lack of height.

By lack of height I mean just 3 inches, not 6 or 8 inches because if I was at least 5'8 with good leg-to-body ratio, that would be enough for majority of them due to my good looks and I would not be considered as a chadlet at that height with longish legs.

Now, looking like this at 5'5 brings some legit issues for me to form a meaningful relationship and I'll try to explain this in more detail below. What I will say is not something that's in my head only, it's a legit concern, so read below and you'll get an idea of what the problem is.

Basically, every woman I interact with smiles at me all the time during the conversation. Be it in a shop, in a street, in a university or in any kind of setting with any kind of woman imaginable (age, looks level, type, etc.). Their eyes just brighten up when they look at me in the eyes and and they giggle constantly when talking with me. This shiet is very awkward for me when the girl / woman is relatively taller than me (between 5'8-5'11). I feel that they are attracted to me but since I lack just 3 inches of height in order for them not to feel uncomfortable besides me, they won't consider dating me due to that reason alone and it has nothing to do with them, it's just a societal pressure and they are concerned of what other people, especially their family and friends think about it.

Only thing that can save a short man in that situation is status because at least when that kind of man has a status, the girls are less concerned of what their family members and friends think because they know that it won't be negative thoughts due to status halo. In that case, even if a girl is 4 inches taller than a man, she can marry him if she doesn't feel uncomfortable with that kind of height difference. The societal pressure will be less because the man is not some unknown guy and is famous and rich so people will approve her choice (especially her family and friends).

But, when a short guy is nor famous nor rich and even if a girl is attracted to him, her mind will get plagued by the worries of what her family and friends think when they see her with a short guy so they just avoid the relationship due to that reason.

This avoidant behavior due to societal pressure mostly applies to good looking women of any height and tall women of any looks level. Short and not good looking women know that society and her family / friends won't judge her with her choice of a man, even if a man is really short like 5'3 or below. So, they feel more relaxed and open entering in a relationship with someone that short, even if the guy is very plain looking or kinda ugly. But, they feel uncomfortable around good looking guys because of low self esteem, even if such a guy is 5'5 in height. And this brings the most legit concern of why being a so-called chadlet at 5'5 sucks.

Since majority of good looking women of any height avoid entering in a relationship with someone below 5'8, no matter how attracted they are with him, due to societal pressures, and only consider dating such a short guy if he's famous or rich since in that case at least they know that their family, friends and society at large won't judge her choice badly and instead think that she's lucky getting such a famous or rich man, she feels relaxed and if she's attracted to such a short guy, she enters in a relationship in that case.

Since I'm nor famous nor rich, that scenario is not gonna happen in my case so unless I become famous or rich, I'm doomed with good looking women because they won't consider me as a serious relationship material due to said societal pressures I talked above. No matter how attracted she might be towards me, she will force her to move on and find someone who is at least average in height and good looking or famous / rich. The third option besides getting famous or rich is getting LL and fix the root problem which, I think is the best decision and I'll explain it why later.

So, this leaves me with short and not pretty women but here comes the issue I was talking about: they don't expect that such a good looking guy (even if he's short) will become genuinely attracted to them and think that they are not a match for him, so they too will avoid entering in a serious relationship with such a good looking short guy but not because of societal pressures but because of her insecurities. They think that such a guy won't commit with them and cheat, try to find a good looking woman and ditch her or whatever. Even though they very are attracted to him, their insecurities will dictate her that it's not worth it forming a serious relationship with that good looking guy as it's pointless and will fail inevitably due to him being superior in looks to her, thus giving him incentive to cheat with good looking women on the side.

I've experienced both kind of avoidance I explained above. With good looking and even taller than me women who were attracted to me but never explicitly mentioned why they rejected me but everything was clear to me of course and with short, very plain looking women who were also attracted to me but avoided entering in a relationship due to their insecurities and concerns that most probably I would not commit with her for too long. And they also never mentioned that reason when they rejected me but everything was clear to me.

I remember one case when I met this short and plain looking girl who I messaged on Instagram first and she thought that my profile was fake because she didn't expect that I would hit her. It took a couple of days for her to become 100% sure that I was not fake, LOL. She was in doubts all the time while we were chatting and even told me explicitly that she feels insecure meeting with me. I had a very hard time convincing her that I wanted to meet her so she agreed at last, albeit with greater effort on my side (she was in doubts all the time). When I met her she was looking at me with bright eyes and was giggling all the time but was very anxious and insecure when we were walking. I told her that I like beautiful girls with feminine features and she got really upset the moment she heard that and told me: "You only care about looks, don't you see?". I told her that it has nothing to do with us and I found her attractive enough but she rejected me stating that she didn't feel the connection a man and a woman should have.

There was another case with a chubby girl, very plain looking, who also ghosted me after meeting with her. I added her on Instagram too and she was hesitant going out with me at first due to being busy or some bias but eventually met with me. She was meh in terms of looks but at least I tried to see her inner qualities so I talked with her while walking together on various topics and in the midst of nowhere my new neighbour appeared who I saw only once before and talked with her briefly. She was with her man and and at first I didn't recognise her but she identified me and immediately came to me and hugged me in a very awkward manner. Then she tried to kiss me but I avoided her. Her man was standing there as if it was nothing and even asked me to take her phone number to hang out with her periodically. It was very awkward for me and the girl I was hanging out with was standing there silent besides me.

That neighbour girl was hot AF with decent body and face though. After they went, that chubby girl I was hanging out with told me immediately that it looks like she has a thing for you and I replied IDK, maybe, but I don't know her well and I feel sorry of what happened, so let's just forget it, to which she replied that OK, and then we continued walking together briefly and I escorted her to her home. Before I tried to escort her, she asked me, are you going to escort me to home, like she was not expecting I was going to do that or something. Basically, after that meeting, I tried to meet her again but she avoided with reasons like she is busy or something, so I just never tried with her again.

So, these are my experiences with good looking and plain looking women. As you can see, for me, forming a serious relationship is an issue because good looking women are concerned of what her surrounding people will think about her when dating short man so they avoid me (even when it's obvious that she's attracted to me a lot) and plain looking women are insecure dating with me because they see me too good looking for her and I kinda give off a player vibes who never settles with one girl and likes to hang out with different girls all the time.

So, the only real solution for me are the following:

1. Become famous and get a status
2. Get rich
3. Get double LL of at least 4 inches
4. All of the above

1 is kinda easier for me because I'm not hideous but I don't want to do that at this point of my life because deep down I know that I'm going to do LL and I want to keep it as a secret, thus, it's impossible to do so if I become famous before LL.

2 is a bit harder and requires much effort so it's not something I'm striving for ATM.

3 requires money but not millions and at least I can get tibia LL of 2 inches in Russia in about a year or two. For femurs, I will need much more time to get the money but is doable in about 10 years from now.

4 is very hard but after getting double LL, it's possible to become famous and rich so I'm not excluding that possibility.

For me, the most legit and respectable option is getting LL and becoming at least 5'9 with good proportions so I can break this hard barrier of height and good looking women won't feel doubtful of what their surroundings will think about me since I won't be short anymore. I don't want to leverage fame and money in order to get a girl because I don't want her surroundings to be fake around me. I just want to become a better version of myself physically and the only thing I lack is height which is fixable by LL. I know it's a hard path and not necessary for me to enjoy this life if I become famous and rich instead but I'm a vain person and I want to do it for me in the first place and for women in the second. I want to look my best and feel as a complete man and not as a so-called chadlet in order to be confident around women knowing that they won't feel ashamed being with me.

Now, if I was a generic looking short guy with an average body frame, I would get away with forming a serious relationship with a short and plain looking girl but to be honest I don't want to settle with that kind of girl because I want the best and they are right when they think that I won't commit with them because they know that I will always try to get the best the moment I can. I just wanted to form a deep relationship and that's why I tried to settle with plain looking girls but they all rejected me immediately. I just didn't try to pursue them after the rejection, just moved on, not even explaining anything.

I want to feel that deep connection with a girl, even if she's not attractive and plain looking but I'm doomed as you can see. Either I get LL and get a pretty girl or I will be alone till my looks last and enjoy casual encounters only. But, I don't want to remain like this, I wan't to get a wife and since plain looking women feel insecure with me my only option is getting LL, becoming at least 5'9 and getting a really good looking girl as a wife.

[_dearStranger]

I know it sucks.

You seem to have made up your mind already for 3 months.

I see you everywhere in this forum.

At this point you are just looking for validation.

Just do LL already and post your journey not any of this sorry story.
We all know how hurtful it is. Most of us are your size without chad looks going on with you.

[Precise2.2]

Just do it bro, do a lot of stretching on the muscles for the bones that you’re doing. Don’t bulk the muscles. I only did 2 inches because I didn’t prep well prior to surgery and I didn’t want any permanent nerve damage. From 5’7.25 to 5’9.4. If I can go through the pain and prepare better, I would just to get more for my money. Right now I’m already doing my calisthenics work outs and going into my 8month post surgery with 0 issues. I had really fast bone regeneration.

[_dearStranger]

if you don't mind me asking, do you feel the difference of doing 2 inch LL ?
Like was it worth it ? Do you experience better treatment from people around you ?

Asking because i am planning to do only about 6 cm LL as I already have shorter wingspan

[Rellec]

Do you know your sitting height? Or the lenght of your tibias and femurs? I also have very short femurs at 163cm, it looks a bit ridicolous in pictures

[AnotherLLer]

I think that women view good looking, masculine short guys more of a joke compared with regular short dudes because they expect them to be at least average height or a tad below it, not short.

Sometimes, I think that it would have been better if I was a regular short dude with nerdy look because at least in that case I would have gotten in a serious relationship with some other nerdy girl because I see those kind of couples everyday in the streets where a guy is short, narrow framed and with average face. Some of them are even bald on top of being short, narrow framed and not attractive but still, they are with some other nerdy girl in a serious relationship.

It's hitting harder the more I remain single because it's not only about getting laid with random girls but to form a meaningful relationship with someone you are compatible with and when you are unable to do so you feel bad about yourself.

IDK man, I feel I've been cursed the moment I was born.

[Precise2.2]

Two inches for me, made a good difference. I had people around my previous height being able to tell I was taller. I have a 5’9.5-5’10 wingspan with a long torso. My femurs were slightly smaller than my tibias 379/457= 0.8293. I also have a larger head which I think looks better proportioned with my new height. I have a mix of a square body with athletic look and I’m really happy with the outcome. I would even consider tibias to match my wingspan and some change to get to 5’11 if it wasn’t so expensive. My ROM is back and my athletic ability I feel is back to 100% due to only doing 2 inches.

[AnotherLLer]

My brother is 2 inches taller than me and I feel short when he stands besides me. It's a solid height difference and 100% worth it to get at any height below 5'8.

[markr09]

5'8 to 5'9 is the proper average range to target. 5'10 is the ideal average but tbh, most people actually consider 5'9 as average. It depends on where you live and your race. If you're Asian or middle eastern, you can get away with just being 5'8, 175cm in some parts of Asia like Japan, it's considered tall, SK is an exception since there's a lot of cosmetic surgeries there. Even in US, Asian-Americans, basically Asians who grew up in US nutrition, environment, and part of middle-class, 5'8 is considered pretty good, and is actually considered somewhat taller than average of them. Personally, I'm Asian and I can use that excuse myself. My target is 5'8.5~5'9 as well, but only 5'10~5'11 or even 6' if I think I still can do more and want more.

If you're caucasian, then I'd say, 5'8 is not really a bit short, but still slightly under average. People still consider 5'9 as average whether most people in social media say it isn't. Social media, especially from women's perspective skewed that perception hard, that even goes far to saying 5'10 is short. Midwesterners though, if you're compared to them, it's a bit hard since they're mostly of European descent, they're mostly all just taller than average, and 6' being quite common in the midwest. FWIW, Victor, aka Cyborg4Life is slightly over 5'8 afaik, and he looks fantastic.

People who say 5'8 isn't good enough really needs to reevaluate some things. Most of those issues stem from women, and honestly if you're going to be dating a woman who's as shallow as rejecting you due to height, then just don't date them, you just avoided a red flag. 5'8 is good enough, if you want to go 5'9 that's also good as well, but if you want to focus on recovery, don't go past 5'9 unless you think of going quad with this which is another entire topic.

Personally, I'm not wanting this surgery because of women, I mean it's good to look taller than a lot of women, but one reason is that I just don't want to look like a chump with other dudes taller than me that looks like I can be a pushover. Which happens more often than you think especially when you're also muscular. You're intimidating, but not intimating enough. Not like I want to bother people, I just don't want people thinking I'm someone to be bothered.

Two inches for me, made a good difference. I had people around my previous height being able to tell I was taller. I have a 5’9.5-5’10 wingspan with a long torso. My femurs were slightly smaller than my tibias 379/457= 0.8293. I also have a larger head which I think looks better proportioned with my new height. I have a mix of a square body with athletic look and I’m really happy with the outcome. I would even consider tibias to match my wingspan and some change to get to 5’11 if it wasn’t so expensive. My ROM is back and my athletic ability I feel is back to 100% due to only doing 2 inches.

Sameish with femurs and wingspan slightly over 5'10. My femurs are shorter and noticeably so, than my tibias. Which is why my default surgery would definitely be femurs over tibias. Although I'd have to go slightly over 2 inches, around 6 cm to reach 5'9 since I'm slightly over 5'6.

[finertoga]

It sounds like you’re rejecting yourself, a lot of mind reading going on where you try and interpret how women feel based on eye contact and societal standards. Have you actually had women tell you “you’re too short for me?” 5’5” is short but it is actually more essential for less good looking short guys to get LL than good looking short guys. This is due to the “halo effect” which essentially is a psychological effect where someone has one superior trait that makes their negative traits less noticeable. So a pretty girl will have red flags ignored by guys because she’s hot. Or a tall guy who’s abusive or ugly will still be desired by women because he’s tall. The same also applies to face. If a guy is very good looking it can to some extent offset his diminished height. You can take two guys, both 5’5” but one is average facially the other good looking, and the good looking guy will be less rejected on his height because his face is a halo . So to be honest I don’t really feel sorry for you, being a Chadlet doesn’t suck, being an ugly manlet sucks. Count your blessings man, obviously you’re short but being good looking is a gift you should have some gratitude for what you’re given. Get LL for yourself but don’t sit here and complain about the woes of being a good looking short guy when so many people have it far worse.

[AnotherLLer]

It sounds like you’re rejecting yourself, a lot of mind reading going on where you try and interpret how women feel based on eye contact and societal standards. Have you actually had women tell you “you’re too short for me?” 5’5” is short but it is actually more essential for less good looking short guys to get LL than good looking short guys. This is due to the “halo effect” which essentially is a psychological effect where someone has one superior trait that makes their negative traits less noticeable. So a pretty girl will have red flags ignored by guys because she’s hot. Or a tall guy who’s abusive or ugly will still be desired by women because he’s tall. The same also applies to face. If a guy is very good looking it can to some extent offset his diminished height. You can take two guys, both 5’5” but one is average facially the other good looking, and the good looking guy will be less rejected on his height because his face is a halo . So to be honest I don’t really feel sorry for you, being a Chadlet doesn’t suck, being an ugly manlet sucks. Count your blessings man, obviously you’re short but being good looking is a gift you should have some gratitude for what you’re given. Get LL for yourself but don’t sit here and complain about the woes of being a good looking short guy when so many people have it far worse.

First of all, I do appreciate your input.

To be honest, it sucks being a so-called manlet no matter how good or bad looking you are. The prejudice on short men is so bad that no matter how attracted a woman might be towards a good looking short guy, she will feel nervous and awkward with him only because of society's standards and trying to fit in those standards all the time. And, believe me, almost all women are trying to fit in those standards set by modern society so they always have doubts when meeting with short guys and, as I mentioned, no matter how attracted she might be towards a good looking short man, unless he has something tangible other than his good looks (mainly money and status) she won't commit to a relationship and reject the idea of being with him.

Only thing that can save a good looking short man is status and money, that way he can get any woman he wants, even Victoria Secret girls as a wife (of course some of them might still reject him but it won't be the majority of them unlike in the case if such a man had no status and money).

Basically, height is a disqualifier for LTRing but not to a same degree for STRs where if a woman finds a man hot, she can fk him nevertheless (i.e. brake the 6 feet minimum height rule for hot short men). But, the odds of her wishing LTRing that man is very low. She might fk him on side regularly if he's good in bed and maintains his good looks throughout years but unless he gets status and money, she won't LTR or marry him.

Most woman don't want to be seen with a short guy in the public, no matter how hot the guy is in her eyes and how bad she wants to fk him. She will do that   on the side with him but she won't wish to associate with him in the public as a couple unless he's very famous or wealthy. That's how crippling being short as a man is when you don't have a status and millions of money.

To me, that inadequacy of fulfilling average woman's needs of at least average height if not tall rule for LTRing a man is enough reason to get the surgery and become at least 5'9 and wear lifts to appear even tallish if needed. The odds of women rejecting the idea of LTRing me at that height will lower significantly.

Other way is forgetting LL and gaining status to compete with status & good looks halo as a short man but here comes the other side of the coin: I want to do LL not only because of women but because of me believing that I will look much better and proportional, thus improving body image and psychological well-being. If I didn't give a fk about appearance and only wanted to get women, I would forget this surgery and get the women via maxing out status and money instead.

And, regarding your take where you say that being an ugly manlet is worse than being a good looking one: of course it's worse, there's no doubt about it. But, being a good looking manlet is still not enough for most women and in the end it's almost same, a manlet is a manlet no matter how he looks. Only difference is that a hot manlet can get ONS and FWB type relationships with certain types of women who find him hot enough to fk but other than that, both types of manlets are fked up, no matter if he's ugly or hot. With right status and money, even ugly manlet can get a very hot wife, see Henry Cejudo for example who is 5'2 at best and looks repulsive to women on top of that. His wife is not attainable even for good looking tall guys. Even they need something other than height and looks to bring to the table to such kind of women nowadays if they want her to marry them.

The moral of the story is that unless a good looking short man wants to date down significantly and marry someone ugly and short and reproduce with her, he is fked up otherwise. Only thing that saves a short man (no matter how hot he is) is attaining status, getting tons of money and dating up with model-tier women to reproduce with the best genes possible in order to fix his genetic flaw of short height.

But, if I never wanted to marry and reproduce, I would just fk with random women till my looks and hotness would fade and then I would either castrate myself chemically or pay for prostitutes in my elderly years since no sane girl wants to fk for free with grandpas.

That's my take on this subject.

[finertoga]

First of all, I do appreciate your input.

To be honest, it sucks being a so-called manlet no matter how good or bad looking you are. The prejudice on short men is so bad that no matter how attracted a woman might be towards a good looking short guy, she will feel nervous and awkward with him only because of society's standards and trying to fit in those standards all the time. And, believe me, almost all women are trying to fit in those standards set by modern society so they always have doubts when meeting with short guys and, as I mentioned, no matter how attracted she might be towards a good looking short man, unless he has something tangible other than his good looks (mainly money and status) she won't commit to a relationship and reject the idea of being with him.

Only thing that can save a good looking short man is status and money, that way he can get any woman he wants, even Victoria Secret girls as a wife (of course some of them might still reject him but it won't be the majority of them unlike in the case if such a man had no status and money).

Basically, height is a disqualifier for LTRing but not to a same degree for STRs where if a woman finds a man hot, she can fk him nevertheless (i.e. brake the 6 feet minimum height rule for hot short men). But, the odds of her wishing LTRing that man is very low. She might fk him on side regularly if he's good in bed and maintains his good looks throughout years but unless he gets status and money, she won't LTR or marry him.

Most woman don't want to be seen with a short guy in the public, no matter how hot the guy is in her eyes and how bad she wants to fk him. She will do that   on the side with him but she won't wish to associate with him in the public as a couple unless he's very famous or wealthy. That's how crippling being short as a man is when you don't have a status and millions of money.

To me, that inadequacy of fulfilling average woman's needs of at least average height if not tall rule for LTRing a man is enough reason to get the surgery and become at least 5'9 and wear lifts to appear even tallish if needed. The odds of women rejecting the idea of LTRing me at that height will lower significantly.

Other way is forgetting LL and gaining status to compete with status & good looks halo as a short man but here comes the other side of the coin: I want to do LL not only because of women but because of me believing that I will look much better and proportional, thus improving body image and psychological well-being. If I didn't give a fk about appearance and only wanted to get women, I would forget this surgery and get the women via maxing out status and money instead.

And, regarding your take where you say that being an ugly manlet is worse than being a good looking one: of course it's worse, there's no doubt about it. But, being a good looking manlet is still not enough for most women and in the end it's almost same, a manlet is a manlet no matter how he looks. Only difference is that a hot manlet can get ONS and FWB type relationships with certain types of women who find him hot enough to fk but other than that, both types of manlets are fked up, no matter if he's ugly or hot. With right status and money, even ugly manlet can get a very hot wife, see Henry Cejudo for example who is 5'2 at best and looks repulsive to women on top of that. His wife is not attainable even for good looking tall guys. Even they need something other than height and looks to bring to the table to such kind of women nowadays if they want her to marry them.

The moral of the story is that unless a good looking short man wants to date down significantly and marry someone ugly and short and reproduce with her, he is fked up otherwise. Only thing that saves a short man (no matter how hot he is) is attaining status, getting tons of money and dating up with model-tier women to reproduce with the best genes possible in order to fix his genetic flaw of short height.

But, if I never wanted to marry and reproduce, I would just fk with random women till my looks and hotness would fade and then I would either castrate myself chemically or pay for prostitutes in my elderly years since no sane girl wants to fk for free with grandpas.

That's my take on this subject.

Can I ask if you've ever actually been in an LTR? Where are you getting these ideas from? For me, i am about half an inch taller than you id say im handsome but not Chadlet level, and ive been in multiple LTR's. In my experience its actually the exact opposite of what you're saying, short term relationships are more difficult but girls are more understanding on the looks part when it comes to long term commitment. Your ideas do not resonate not only with my own experiences but with scientific evidence. Please read "Evolution of Desire" by David Buss and it will open your eyes on what women really want from an evolutionary perspective. In the book he describes that when it comes to mate selection, women discriminate highly on looks for STR's, and much less so for LTR's. This scientific information directly confirms my own personal experience. The exact opposite is true for men, men discriminate more highly for LTR's but drop their looks standards for short term flings. If you are getting these ideas not from your own experience but from the internet I'd encourage you to go offline and actually put yourself out there. Find out for yourself whats true and really not true. I think we can both agree 5'5" is a significant disadvantage, and definitely qualifies you to get CLL, but we shouldn't swing things too far and say nothing else really matters, which is also a lie.

Also I'd like to address one last point directly

 But, being a good looking manlet is still not enough for most women and in the end it's almost same, a manlet is a manlet no matter how he looks. Only difference is that a hot manlet can get ONS and FWB type relationships with certain types of women who find him hot enough to fk but other than that, both types of manlets are fked up, no matter if he's ugly or hot. With right status and money, even ugly manlet can get a very hot wife, see Henry Cejudo for example who is 5'2 at best and looks repulsive to women on top of that. His wife is not attainable even for good looking tall guys. Even they need something other than height and looks to bring to the table to such kind of women nowadays if they want her to marry them.

Getting ONS and FWB relationships is NOT nothing, many guys would kill for this, so you contradict yourself by saying "almost the same". One man getting short term flings and the other not is the difference between a playboy and an incel. Those two aren't even close to the same thing, the fact that you even say that lends me to believe you do in fact have pretty privilege. Usually its tall people who say height doesn't matter or models who say looks don't, or wealthy people who say money doesn't matter. You can live a great life if you have a stellar face even if you're short.

[lucindaris]

I was in Thailand for some time and after having so many ONS (with Asian and some European tourists), I've got bored fast and even after returning to Europe I didnt want to try. You can get easily laid if you are at least confident and have good looking body/face even when you are short in Eastern Europe/SEA. I think if someone is really pathetic in relationships (cuck) and is afraid to talk with women that surgery will not help so much. There are many tall freaks that are still virgins at 30 and some shorter people can get more than 10-15sx partners just by playing cards right.

[AnotherLLer]

finertoga:

Can I ask if you've ever actually been in an LTR? Where are you getting these ideas from? For me, i am about half an inch taller than you id say im handsome but not Chadlet level, and ive been in multiple LTR's. In my experience its actually the exact opposite of what you're saying, short term relationships are more difficult but girls are more understanding on the looks part when it comes to long term commitment. Your ideas do not resonate not only with my own experiences but with scientific evidence. Please read "Evolution of Desire" by David Buss and it will open your eyes on what women really want from an evolutionary perspective. In the book he describes that when it comes to mate selection, women discriminate highly on looks for STR's, and much less so for LTR's. This scientific information directly confirms my own personal experience. The exact opposite is true for men, men discriminate more highly for LTR's but drop their looks standards for short term flings. If you are getting these ideas not from your own experience but from the internet I'd encourage you to go offline and actually put yourself out there. Find out for yourself whats true and really not true. I think we can both agree 5'5" is a significant disadvantage, and definitely qualifies you to get CLL, but we shouldn't swing things too far and say nothing else really matters, which is also a lie.

No, I've never been in a serious relationship with girls ever and it was by my choice, not involuntarily. I'm saying this with certainty because girls were simping to me in school & uni years (I'm in my late 20's now) but I never reciprocated with them not because they were ugly and undesirable but because I was mentally retarded to be honest at that time due to avoiding girls and doing childish stuff like gaming and drinking with male friends. I was too childish mentally and even physically up until 25 years of age. Only inexperienced and very young girls were simping to me, not mature ones who are more attracted to masc type guys who are well established and are serious.

Regarding the idea that STRs are more difficult for short GL men rather than LTRs, it mostly comes down what type of guy we're talking about. There are GL short guys who look high trust and easily manipulative in LTR by a woman and there are low trust GL short guys who look like players and are more sexually attractive in a primal way, i.e. they exude sex appeal instead of high trust domestic kitty appeal most women desire nowadays in a man for LTR to easily manipulate them and being safe knowing that he's not viewed by women as a sexy man but rather soft and delicate guy, so they won't fantasize for him for kinky stuff.

There goes the distinction between GL men: one type is an LTR material for safety and the other is more sexual and player type on the surface and in mannerisms / character too. Women sense this and immediately cut ties with non-conforming and sexually attractive guys unless she wants ONS or STR type relationship with him. They want someone GL but conforming type guy on the surface and in character too in order to feel safe that he never cheats and fulfills her demands by manipulating him 24/7.

So, those women who discriminate against looks for ONS and FWB type flings are discriminating against sexual attractiveness, i.e. they want a guy who they think looks hot, not just GL. That's why I'm saying that if women find a short man attractive in sexual way they will fk him unless he's at least 5'5 (lowest normal male height in terms of standard deviations) and has no visible flaws in appearance that might repulse them.

I see many average looking short guys with GFs and wives in the street but unfortunately I'm not the type they wish to LTR. I only get sexual IOIs on social media and IRL from slutty girls and women, i.e. they initiate sexual talking and sending nudes without my explicit request. They add me on Facebook themselves, not me. I just have that kind of face and build that attracts those kind of slutty women unfortunately and I can't change that.

I've tried getting into LTR with 28 years old single (not married in the past) girl recently who was very plain in terms of appearance and character but she rejected at the end of our meeting stating that she didn't feel connection and even mentioned that she rejected her fiancee in the past because he too had problems. I didn't ask what kind of problems I have but IMO it's related to my character and childish behaviors that is incompatible for a serious relationship to a woman. She didn't see me as a stable mate IMO and I just ghosted her the next day, even though she asked me the next day why didn't I text her how did she went home the day I met her, LOL. I never replied to her and she got upset and sent loads of text which I didn't even open, I just archived the chat and she deleted me after 2 weeks of waiting my response, LOL.

I'm not the type of guy who chases girls, no matter how hot she is, I view them at the same level no matter if she's ugly or hottest girl in the world.

As you can see, there's a problem in me in that they don't view me as a stable relationship guy and think of me as someone who never gets tired of flirting with girls and fks on the side so that particular girl didn't want additional headaches and cut ties with me immediately on the spot even though she was looking at me with bright eyes when she said those words to me.

Getting ONS and FWB relationships is NOT nothing, many guys would kill for this, so you contradict yourself by saying "almost the same". One man getting short term flings and the other not is the difference between a playboy and an incel. Those two aren't even close to the same thing, the fact that you even say that lends me to believe you do in fact have pretty privilege. Usually its tall people who say height doesn't matter or models who say looks don't, or wealthy people who say money doesn't matter. You can live a great life if you have a stellar face even if you're short.

Yes, I understand that it's kinda ironic by my side saying that, I know that playing field is not equal between good looking and bad looking men, even if they're short than average but I wanted to say that in the end, all short men, no matter if he's GL or not have the same fundamental problem being viewed as a less of a man socially by women. They will test them all the time before trying deciding if they enter in an LTR with them and those constant testings won't end even in a formed relationship. Height is something that severely cripples a man in that regard if he wishes to become a serious partner to her, not for STR & FWB.

IMO, it's better being a bit above average height and average looking rather than short and hot as a man because in that case you can enjoy both of worlds, getting in serious relationships with most women not worrying about they reject you because of height and while being in an LTR, enjoy ONS and superficial flings on the side secretly. As a short guy, no matter how hot you are, you're handicapped forming serious relationships with most women you choose and you're forced to either give up on serious relationships and just enjoy casual flings or date up with the help of status and money with some shallow model-tier women and breed with them while giving them everything a woman wants to feel fulfilled in this life, i.e. luxurious and vague lifestyle.

Sometimes I think if it even worth it to have an LTR when knowing that the main reason she's with you as your significant other is because of you possessing status and money. It kinda replaces the lack of height for her in terms that she views you as a trophy like some 6'7 guy in a sense that your SMV is high not because you're tall but you're not a nobody and having you her side is valuable to her, so she doesn't give a fk in that case what other people think about your lack of height. But, if you are a nobody like some random 6'7 guy, you have a significant disadvantage compared to that 6'7 guy because he's at least got height that is seen valuable by most females and some of them might stay with broke 6'7 guy at least temporary until she finds him boring but you can't most of the time. You either increase your SMV through the means of getting status and money or remain doomed in serious relationships, because your acceptance rate for LTR is very low because of not being at least average height.

[AnotherLLer]

I was in Thailand for some time and after having so many ONS (with Asian and some European tourists), I've got bored fast and even after returning to Europe I didnt want to try. You can get easily laid if you are at least confident and have good looking body/face even when you are short in Eastern Europe/SEA. I think if someone is really pathetic in relationships (cuck) and is afraid to talk with women that surgery will not help so much. There are many tall freaks that are still virgins at 30 and some shorter people can get more than 10-15sx partners just by playing cards right.

I know that relocating to SEA is easy mode for most men but it requires that a man should have finances in order. Not everybody can afford tripping and remaining in a foreign country for months while not working there and spending money continuously.

By eastern Europe you mean Slavic countries perhaps. Yeah, as a foreigner they see you something special but unless you're really hot they won't fk with you and won't be around with you. There are some cheap hoes there who will do anything if some foreigner spends money on her by taking her in restaurants, buying her gifts and make her live decent while he remains there but it drains your pocket and, again, requires more money than one needs in cheap SEA countries like in Thai or Vietnam. Also, those girls in SEA are all looking the same, they are mostly short and have no curves and boobs. It's kinda boring there because of lack of variety. At least in eastern Europe you can find all types of women including Asian types, especially in eastern part of Russia.

And, if a woman finds a man hot in eastern Europe and SEA, she will find him hot in west too. It's impossible for such a man to remain sexless in the west as there are loads of hoes there who are partying and fking random guys 10x a day.

But, at least in eastern Europe and SEA you can find a wife material here and there but I believe it's almost impossible nowadays in west. So, in that regard, fishing in the eastern Europe and SEA is a sensible approach at least.

[lucindaris]

I didnt spend any money for sex directly. Thailand depends on the approach if you go to touristy places you will pay no matter if youare ugly short or handsome tall. In general they are attracted to white males more than those in Europe/N.America.

It's possible to have sxx in the west for sure in some places (clubbing, festivals etc)  like you have said but it's not wifre/long term relationship material.

I agree with the last sentence, and I am just saying that even if you lengthen your bones you still need to know how play your cards right with the women. I had sxx with women who asked about my height on the first date, it's doable but obviously i would be more confident to be just average/close to average. Another thing is just to walk on the beach barefoot and not be ashamed to take group photos with other men that's why I am opting to get only one surgery on femurs internals with good doctors and continue my life fater it.

[AnotherLLer]

I didnt spend any money for sex directly. Thailand depends on the approach if you go to touristy places you will pay no matter if youare ugly short or handsome tall. In general they are attracted to white males more than those in Europe/N.America.

It's possible to have sxx in the west for sure in some places (clubbing, festivals etc)  like you have said but it's not wifre/long term relationship material.

I agree with the last sentence, and I am just saying that even if you lengthen your bones you still need to know how play your cards right with the women. I had sxx with women who asked about my height on the first date, it's doable but obviously i would be more confident to be just average/close to average. Another thing is just to walk on the beach barefoot and not be ashamed to take group photos with other men that's why I am opting to get only one surgery on femurs internals with good doctors and continue my life fater it.

That's the issue, you spend the money indirectly in order to get sex from them there. That means you need to take them to restaurants, buy gifts and, in general, make them entertained by taking them to various spots in the city and spending money at those places you go together.

Whereas some men can get away with minimal expenses (mostly coffe and taxi fees) to get the sex from the women they meet. If it's a club setting, it's even possible to get away without spending anything. At most it's about a drink or two vodka and that's it, which is still nothing at all in terms of expenses.

The situation gets bad if a man is forced to spend more money for her other than for those things mentioned above. Taking her to restaurants, buying expensive gifts and treating her like a special person whilst you only want sex from her is not good but I understand that some men can't get away without doing this, because, otherwise, they (women) won't spread their legs at them.

That's the reality unfortunately, some men can get away easier and cheaper whilst others need to constantly spend money to women and walk on tip-toes besides her in order not to make her anxious and at the end get sex from her after all those efforts.

[lucindaris]

Food in thailand costs less than 10 usd for one person at good restaurant and you can get it on first or second date,  if you are not stupid. There is a higher chance lady will be a virgin or had 1 sxx partner max unlike those who had 30 body count and some diseases. Plus you are kinda achieving it by your actions not by paying and not by treating her as a queen, but most guys cant do that of course that's why they whine on this forum and this surgery will not help them so much if it's their only goal. Some of the SEA women like to split bills as well if they see you valuable, but i dont care about cucks because they always fail no matter if it's usa, asia or europe. I dont even how people can get boner with prostitutes but it's the case if you had normal girls before and know it's just a downgrade.