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[tilli]

Hi everyone!

I am a long time lurker on the forum and in recent months I have more and more realized that LL could indeed be a valid option for me. I gotta admit, before that phase, I considered the whole thing crazy, already because of the fact that it seems to really be an option to change something which, for my whole life basically, I thought was not changable. How crazy is that? Behind me are years of me trying to just accept my height, with that 'I can never change it, ever' - and all of a sudden this could be untrue.

Ok, let me just start by introducing myself and telling my background. I am afraid this is gonna be longer but i need to get things off my chest and i need to find answers to many open questions, where you guys and gals maybe can help me. I will highlight and enumerate them to make replying to them easier. Sometimes they are not even phrased as a question, but i will add a (x) marker.

I am in the age range of 30-40, living in middle europe, south of Germany to be more precise. I want to stay anonymous like many people here but there are certain things i am willing to share. My height is 173 in the evening, in certain countries I dont feel short at all, unfortunately in my home country or similar ones I do indeed. Very often i am the shortest guy in a room.

My sitting height is approximately 87.5, which i think is pretty short for my height (pls correct me if i am wrong? (1)) - at least I notice that one or two friends of mine who are only slightly taller are way taller sitting. Also other people are bit shorter when sitting though, so i really cant say.
My wingspan on the other hand is 181, so I am a bit torn between "lengthening will mess with my proportions" vs "no problem at all"? Maybe the truth is in the middle? (2)
I have not meassured my legs yet, i am especially interested in measuring my femur and tibias ratio, can anybody maybe point me to an easy tutorial on how measure things properly? (3)
Right now I can only judge visually, and since it is my own body it is difficult to judge. Sometimes I have the feeling that i have quite long tibias, but maybe I am just making this up in my head. It would at least be a good excuse why i always had zero success putting on muscle on my calves hah.

I have the following pictures (not completely nked but still nsfw). One from the front, one from the side, and then the same again with a small "walking step" each:
https://imgur.com/lkP7bX1
https://imgur.com/8ujbQHT
https://imgur.com/y4WMZcH
https://i.imgur.com/LvcOgB9.jpg
...maybe you can give me some input on my femur/tibias-ratio, based on just visuals? (4)

Also i think the side view pics show that my torso is rather short compared to the legs?

If you are wondering about the censoring, as said, privacy, also on one of my feet i have a scar i wanted to hide.

Speaking of muscles, i have always been quite into gym related stuff, also running (i always sucked at it), but i was never a pro bodybuilder and these recent years i became more and more lazy, i have to be open about it. I would need to get rid of fat in general but i am also not un-athletic. Anyways, since 4 weeks i started to do as much sports and stretching as possible in case i really want to do the surgery - if not, it still benefits my body and my health to be back at sports etc.

Two things you maybe just read between the lines:

First, i am completely undecided whether i will do this. I have that dream that it could resolve that one big thing that always bothers me, sometimes more in the back of my head, sometimes more present. It's never about girls etc btw. - i have always been fairly successful with the ladies. I don't even consider myself super above average looking in the face or something. Girls just always told me they liked my confidence and my manliness. Long story short, if i would do this surgery, i would only do it for myself.

Second, i do already have a rough time plan, IN CASE i do it. I would want to have the surgery somewhere between July and September, since that would fit best with my work schedule. I can work remotely and also pause for a few weeks, so that isn't really a topic i have questions on. The only question is, since i am still in the researching phase and i havent contacted any Dr. yet, if the chosen one will have time in that time window. What is your experience, how much ahead are people here booking their surgeries? Is half a year enough? (5)

Surgery type: i am leaning towards femur (this could completely change based on your input, if you look at my pics and say "hey, your femurs are too long already" or something). And in that case i want a weight bearing nail.

List of doctors I have considered (including why i am thinking they could be a good choice + open questions on them, since i have not contacted any single one of them, yet)
1) Dr. Betz / Dr. Becker
Germany is a big european country and he seems to be THE doctor for limb lengthening. On the one hand he gives me this vibe of being a hundred times better choice than someone in Turkey etc., on the other hand though there is also a LOT of negative feedback on the forum etc. Although i gotta admit, some people here seems to also through certain words like "butchering" around fairly easily, it is hard to judge tbh. I know my surgery would be with Dr. Becker - he has way less negative feedback, but also way less cases of course. The full weight bearing nail sounds awesome for me, although the stories of some patients having immense pain while clicking also scare me a fair bit.
Another thing that confused me a bit was when one user on the forum had the surgery in February i believe and somewhere around September set his goal to get rid of the crutches by the end of the year. Isn't that a fairly long period of time with crutches, for the fact that it is a weight bearing nail? (6) Sorry, i am still learning and reading more and more people's diaries. Unfortunately the thread i just referenced is something i cannot find anymore atm.

2) Dr. Köhne
Another doctor in my home country - in this case by far the closest to my home, which i consider to be a big advantage. What worries me is that there are not so many feedbacks floating around online yet, although everything u can find seems positive overall. I am still wondering about the pricing, since he talks about 2 different precise nails on his website ( https://beinverlaengerungszentrum.de/ablauf-kosten-preis-beinverlaengerung/ ) and the prices are only listed on the first precise nail variant, which is only 20kg-weight-bearing. No prices for the 60kg variant on the website as far as i could see.

3) Dr. Giotikas
He is in Greece, that frightens me a bit, thinking about having Doctors speaking my language in my home country and then choosing to fly to Greece and doing it there instead feels weird to me in certain moments - on the other hand i have the feeling that he has way less negative reputation than Dr. Betz for instance.
Two particular things i am worried about:
Some former patients talked about not being able to click the G-Nail themselves, at all. Is this outdated information in the meantime or is this still relevant, does anybody know? (7)
Second, the user V21 mentioned here ( http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=67810.msg268447#msg268447 ) a complication with the nail and that the Dr had to "drill through the knee" - for me this sounds like a horrible complication but user V21 seems to mentioning it as if it's nothing, haha. Does anybody know more about these kinds of complications? (8 ).
Everything else in user V21's post is very (!) promising though, he speaks of being able to working out very soon afterwards again.. just wow if thats true!

Money is not the biggest (!) issue for me, so weight bearing nail it is. Although I think I cant and/or dont want to afford to going to Dr Paley for instance, since that is yet another new dimension of costs in my eyes.

My lengthening goal would be 7 to 7.5 cm, which is only doable in case of femurs ofc. I would even consider doing quad lengthening in the long run, but only if i need it proportions wise (both aesthetically and/or because of agility) and not because of even more height need.

I want to get as athletic as possible after the lengthening. That could also play a role in maybe indeed getting tibias done somewhere in the further future. I am not a pro athlete, but i would love to continue being 95% agile.

I think that is my summary for now. I am glad to having found this forum which gives me so much knowledge gain on an almost daily basis these recent weeks, thank you all. I am looking forward to your replies and answers!

Greetings from germany
tilli

[piikachu]

Becker for sure. He is a multidisciplinary surgeon and can provide well rounded treatment on all aspects of LL including minimal scarring, psychological (he understands this well due to his expertise in other plastic surgeries as well). No Becker patient has complained about anything so far.

[Russell]

Hey man/ grüß dich

I am doing my limb lengthening with Dr Köhne right now and I can vouch for him. He is very professional and trust him. Although you need to understand that if you go with him you will need to arrange physiotherapy in you town yourself since there is no rehab facility in his clinic. I am living in Hessen, so I need to go to Bavaria for follow ups, in your case it's not a problem. Another point is that, he is doing it only unilaterally, so one leg at a time (I assume before the new Precise Max comes out). That doubles amount of time needed. I don't know about 2 different types of nails, I had only standard Precise 2.2 which is 20kg.
I cannot say anything about Becker, some internal instinct said I shouldn't go with him when I was choosing a doctor myself. One more option you have is Dr Thaller in Berlin. Although he is a bit reluctant to accept cosmetic patients, he is a great guy and very trustworthy as well. I had a consultation with him and for cosmetic surgery he requires also a consultation with a psychiatrist. It was a bit too much of a hassle for me, so I decided to go with Dr Köhne. Never regretted it.

[Marie_Bard]

Hi, I totally get the point of staying in your country and speaking your own language, but if you speak and understand some english, giotikas is far more experiensed in all aspects of cosmetic limb lengthening than any of the German doctors you mention.
Hve you checked this? it's a talk he gave in a congress London recently (the sound is bad but it has english subtitles available):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9iFx1xykMc
i hope this helps

[piikachu]

Becker is the best for cosmetic LL. For other non cosmetic surgeries you can go to these other doctors as well. It's common sense that a surgeon who does many cosmetic LL surgeries every week will give you the best results for cosmetic LL.

Also it is written in his website that he was developing his own nail several years ago but later on decided to collaborate with Betz. So I assume he is also well versed with implant technology. He also speaks several languages.

[tilli]

Hey everyone,

thanks for the fast responses, should have signed in earlier i guess

Becker for sure. He is a multidisciplinary surgeon and can provide well rounded treatment on all aspects of LL including minimal scarring, psychological (he understands this well due to his expertise in other plastic surgeries as well). No Becker patient has complained about anything so far.

Thanks piikachu, i can say u seem to be quite a Becker fan on this forum - what's the exact reason for that? Can you maybe elaborate a bit why you think he is "the best", how you name it also in your second reply here? I am bit confused by the argument of being the "best cosmetic" surgeon. I mean, i hope this includes keeping up all the agilty and stuff too, and not only make it cosmetically the best possible outcome haha. Input would be highly appreciated.

Hey man/ grüß dich

I am doing my limb lengthening with Dr Köhne right now and I can vouch for him. He is very professional and trust him. Although you need to understand that if you go with him you will need to arrange physiotherapy in you town yourself since there is no rehab facility in his clinic. I am living in Hessen, so I need to go to Bavaria for follow ups, in your case it's not a problem. Another point is that, he is doing it only unilaterally, so one leg at a time (I assume before the new Precise Max comes out). That doubles amount of time needed. I don't know about 2 different types of nails, I had only standard Precise 2.2 which is 20kg.
I cannot say anything about Becker, some internal instinct said I shouldn't go with him when I was choosing a doctor myself. One more option you have is Dr Thaller in Berlin. Although he is a bit reluctant to accept cosmetic patients, he is a great guy and very trustworthy as well. I had a consultation with him and for cosmetic surgery he requires also a consultation with a psychiatrist. It was a bit too much of a hassle for me, so I decided to go with Dr Köhne. Never regretted it.

Hey hallo
Thanks for the info of having to arrange the recovery phase on my own, was not yet aware of that. Is it really true that he only does unilaterally or is it "just" his preferred method? On his website he also speaks about alternatives like bilateral etc. Are u doing both femure and tibias? Dr Thaller, I had never heard about him until now, interesting. The psychiatric consultation does not scare me, as said, i am doing it for myself and i am sure i'd get an approval easily.

Hi, I totally get the point of staying in your country and speaking your own language, but if you speak and understand some english, giotikas is far more experiensed in all aspects of cosmetic limb lengthening than any of the German doctors you mention.
Hve you checked this? it's a talk he gave in a congress London recently (the sound is bad but it has english subtitles available):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9iFx1xykMc
i hope this helps

Hey Marie_Bard,
thanks very much for that youtube video, i just watched it and what i especially like about it is that he goes also into the direction of proportions etc., that shows me that he also cares about these kind of things. I have read about others like Betz that they don't even mention proportions sometimes. Maybe someone just made that up, but i indeed read that in the past. And no, English - as you can see by reading my posts - is not really a problem



By the way, does anybody here still have input on my current proportions (femur vs tibias, short sitting height) and maybe also on how to properly measure femur and tibias? Would be awesome to get some input there - thanks everyone so far!

[TheDream]

By the way, does anybody here still have input on my current proportions (femur vs tibias, short sitting height) and maybe also on how to properly measure femur and tibias? Would be awesome to get some input there - thanks everyone so far!

Human sitting height is approximately half the full height: 87.5 cm * 2 = 175 cm. You said you were 173 cm. So this seems to be perfectly normal proportion.

From your images your femurs and tibias look like a normal ratio of the tibias being 0.8 times the length og the femurs. From statistics we know basically all humans have exactly 0.8 times tibia to femur ratio. So this is exactly as expected.

[tilli]

Human sitting height is approximately half the full height: 87.5 cm * 2 = 175 cm. You said you were 173 cm. So this seems to be perfectly normal proportion.

From your images your femurs and tibias look like a normal ratio of the tibias being 0.8 times the length og the femurs. From statistics we know basically all humans have exactly 0.8 times tibia to femur ratio. So this is exactly as expected.

Hey @TheDream,
thanks for the fast response - i wasn't aware of that sitting height formula, so highly appreciated.
So if i lengthened to 180cm to 181cm my sitting height would only be off by 2.5cm which is acceptable.

[Rellec]

your sitting height is a bit on the shorter side, i'm 163cm and mine is around 86,5

[tilli]

your sitting height is a bit on the shorter side, i'm 163cm and mine is around 86,5

Yes it also feels like it for me in certain situations. But it's nothing that worries me since I think it will still be ok after lengthening.

[Russell]

I strongly recommend you having consultations with all three German doctors (Becker, Köhne, Thaller) if you are planning to do it in Germany of course. Speak to them,ask your questions and see if you like their vibes and atmosphere. It is almost as important as the operation itself. It will cost you around 1,5k. Yes it's a lot, though limb lengthening is not something you want to gamble with. Don't try to spare every little euro! If you are willing to invest dozens of thousands euros, what another 1,5k. As for Köhne, I believe doing unilaterally is the only option, but I don't know for sure. If you do it unilaterally it will take double amount of time obviously.
I am personally doing femurs only.

[Marie_Bard]

I strongly recommend you having consultations with all three German doctors (Becker, Köhne, Thaller) if you are planning to do it in Germany of course. Speak to them,ask your questions and see if you like their vibes and atmosphere. It is almost as important as the operation itself. It will cost you around 1,5k. Yes it's a lot, though limb lengthening is not something you want to gamble with. Don't try to spare every little euro! If you are willing to invest dozens of thousands euros, what another 1,5k. As for Köhne, I believe doing unilaterally is the only option, but I don't know for sure. If you do it unilaterally it will take double amount of time obviously.
I am personally doing femurs only.

If a doctor thinks unilaterally ( one leg and then the other) he don't know a   about cosmetic LL imo.
What will happen if there is a complication in the 2nd leg that prevents further lengthening? Will the doctor go back and shorten the first one (which will have probably consolidated already??) doesnt make any sense.
These doctors may be good doctors but they don't do cosmetic LL and they don't know how to deal with short tature patients.

[Russell]

If a doctor thinks unilaterally ( one leg and then the other) he don't know a   about cosmetic LL imo.
What will happen if there is a complication in the 2nd leg that prevents further lengthening? Will the doctor go back and shorten the first one (which will have probably consolidated already??) doesnt make any sense.
These doctors may be good doctors but they don't do cosmetic LL and they don't know how to deal with short tature patients.

You have no idea what you're talking about. All these surgeons have been in the cll field for years. They have more knowledge  than you and I would ever have in our lives. Unilateral lengthening is a justified method which allows the patients to be able to move around, take care of themselves and not be wheelchair bounded. In comparison with bilateral lengthening the complication rate is from minimal to non existent. Saying that those doctors who perform unilaterally don't know cll is completely false.

[tilli]

I strongly recommend you having consultations with all three German doctors (Becker, Köhne, Thaller) if you are planning to do it in Germany of course. Speak to them,ask your questions and see if you like their vibes and atmosphere. It is almost as important as the operation itself. It will cost you around 1,5k. Yes it's a lot, though limb lengthening is not something you want to gamble with. Don't try to spare every little euro! If you are willing to invest dozens of thousands euros, what another 1,5k. As for Köhne, I believe doing unilaterally is the only option, but I don't know for sure. If you do it unilaterally it will take double amount of time obviously.
I am personally doing femurs only.

That is a good idea - are you doing the same or did you already even?
Money is not an issue in that sense, i agree, i dont care about a few thousands more or less, because it is a big investment anyhow. The only thing i dont wanna afford is the Paley thing which would basically multiply the price by about 2. Or at least close to that.

[ax]

One more thing is with Betzbone you can keep the nail in your legs for as long as you want. But with Precice rods you are making a commitment to removing them a few years later. So with these "unilateral" Precice surgeons you are committing to at least 3 surgeries.

I think Betzbone is the way to go. My only concern is whether the doctor is skilled in treating complications of LL. I couldn't ask this during my consultation because I was very excited looking at the nice environment they have over there. @tilli if you consult with him please find out about this.

[Russell]

That is a good idea - are you doing the same or did you already even?
Money is not an issue in that sense, i agree, i dont care about a few thousands more or less, because it is a big investment anyhow. The only thing i dont wanna afford is the Paley thing which would basically multiply the price by about 2. Or at least close to that.

Yeah, I got my surgery done (one leg) with Dr Köhne last year. Right now I am in the consolidation phase. Once the bone is healed I will have my second surgery. I expect get it done in mid spring or so.
US doctors are expensive yes, not only the procedure but the life during rehab there will suck out your finances pretty fast. At least in Germany you are at home

[Rossi46]

After I get the surgery I was thinking why I didn’t come here before to check about doctor staff and city etc…

For me ( for all of us ) that’s will be the biggest day from our life , it’s a life changer .

so if I was you, first of all, not just online appointments go to the person in person and ask they try to feel them and biggest thing say to them you don’t need that they “sell that to you” ( because they will for sure )

But try to take experiences from people here but not just that , try to go yourself and feel yourself. Book 2 days trip to do that. It will not be that expensive I will give you another eye and you get more confidence.( or not )

[ax]

After I get the surgery I was thinking why I didn’t come here before to check about doctor staff and city etc…

For me ( for all of us ) that’s will be the biggest day from our life , it’s a life changer .

so if I was you, first of all, not just online appointments go to the person in person and ask they try to feel them and biggest thing say to them you don’t need that they “sell that to you” ( because they will for sure )

But try to take experiences from people here but not just that , try to go yourself and feel yourself. Book 2 days trip to do that. It will not be that expensive I will give you another eye and you get more confidence.( or not )

I went to Becker's clinic. I am still undecided. Everything looks good over there but I am a bit worried about his ability to handle complications if they arise. I didn't even think about this when I went there, but I was talking to some other guy on DM who said he or she cancelled the surgery because he felt scared about the same thing.