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[Overdozer]

you're saying 10cm is no problem at all

No, what did I say? I said it's not a problem, if you do agressive PT and also noted that it could affect your lower limb proportions. If someone decides he looks fine on a mockup with 10cm, and also understands he'd have to stretch a lot, then what's the reason you're telling him it's 'not safe'? The thing is you're the one that actually spreads nonsense.

5 cm makes quite a noticeable difference between two people standing next to each other

5cm are quite hard to notice for yourself. I'd say you should go at least for 7-7.5cm or 3 inches, that should be something, else you'll most likely regret it. And you don't end up recovering better doing less lengthening, you end up recovering faster - there's a difference.

[TRS]

No, what did I say? I said it's not a problem, if you do agressive PT and also noted that it could affect your lower limb proportions. If someone decides he looks fine on a mockup with 10cm, and also understands he'd have to stretch a lot, then what's the reason you're telling him it's 'not safe'? The thing is you're the one that actually spreads nonsense.
5cm are quite hard to notice for yourself. I'd say you should go at least for 7-7.5cm or 3 inches, that should be something, else you'll most likely regret it. And you don't end up recovering better doing less lengthening, you end up recovering faster - there's a difference.

I hope you do realise that height is subjective. For some people 5 cm can make a huge difference. I useto wear 5cm lifts and i realised how much difference it made and even some people noticed that i appeared taller! I have seen several members who were very satisfied around 5 cm and decided to end distraction.
Another thing is that you should not be over confident that 10 cm in one segment is safe and encourage people to lengthen that much. You don't have any studies to back this up as well. People can face serious complications while trying to achieve this much such as nerve damage,early arthritis and joint stiffness. Some people may lose their athletic ability as well.
Yea some individuals are naturally able to go that distance while others cannot. They can face complications and difficulties even early on their distraction.
It is common sense that the less you lengthen then less chances of complications and faster recovery. This should not be hard to comprehend.
Well you can lengthen as much as you want and no one is stopping you from lengthening 10, 15 , 20 cm in one segment but you should not encourage people to do the same.

[Wannabegiant]

And you don't end up recovering better doing less lengthening, you end up recovering faster - there's a difference.

This statement is most likely completely false, i understand that you want to believe that it is true to justify the ammount you lengthened, but lets get realistic here.

The one source you posted did not mention anything about the actual ammount of cm the patients where lengthening. The claim that they didnt found any correlation of recovered muscle strenght to the ammount lengthened wouldnt be surprising if the patients in the test had a lengthening range of 3-6 cm for example. We dont know if any of them went beyond the mentioned safe limit or how much it varied between patients.

Also this test does not take into account how active or athletic the patients where before the LL process, if they where all average joes who werent active in sports, which is likely for at least some of them considering the age range varied from 13-57, then it wouldnt be that hard to reach their previous ability since they never pushed their limits previously either.

However someone who is very athletic and has pushed his body as much as he/she can before LL surgery would most likely notice that that previous level of athleticism is not reachable after doing LL, at least not if the lengthened ammount is over the safe limit. How much of a difference depends on the individual.

Finally these tests (the dynamometer and the leg extensor) do not test the patients agility and mobility of the legs after LL, which woud certainly be affected since we change the biomechanics of the legs by lengthening them (femur LL changes the mechanical axis, and also the femur-tibia ratio would change unless you lengthened them both specifically to keep the ratio, which would be very hard to do if you did 10 cm on tibias..

[123]

No, what did I say? I said it's not a problem, if you do agressive PT and also noted that it could affect your lower limb proportions. If someone decides he looks fine on a mockup with 10cm, and also understands he'd have to stretch a lot, then what's the reason you're telling him it's 'not safe'? The thing is you're the one that actually spreads nonsense.
5cm are quite hard to notice for yourself. I'd say you should go at least for 7-7.5cm or 3 inches, that should be something, else you'll most likely regret it. And you don't end up recovering better doing less lengthening, you end up recovering faster - there's a difference.

Ahh, you're the guy who claimed that people naturally have shorter wingspan than height without providing source and when you were asked to post one of the many studies who proof that (which is not true, but you claimed that) you went silent.

And it doesn't matter that you say "you should go at least for 7-7.5cm or 3 inches" because you have completely no clue about orthopedics and you are not a doctor. Stop giving false hopes to future LL-patients and stop encouraging them to do dangerous things!

You're definitely a complete retard, if I would be running this forum you would have been banned a long time ago.

[wannabetaller]

It seems to me,no one do 10 cm on tiibas in this forum.Somebody can maybe say we are talkin bs 

[Sweden]

You're definitely a complete retard, if I would be running this forum you would have been banned a long time ago.

That was the best thing about the old "old forum " who went to China.

He banned everyone writing nonsense.
He was also totally against all Indian doctors and everyone else who operated in poor countries.
Today we can see he was right to do it.

[Overdozer]

I hope you do realise that height is subjective. For some people 5 cm can make a huge difference

I did 5cm on tibs and ended up realising it was for nothing. You adapt to such tiny increase very fast and soon you question yourself did you actually even lengthen that 5cm.

You don't have any studies to back this up as well. People can face serious complications while trying to achieve this much such as nerve damage,early arthritis and joint stiffness.

You don't have any studies to back up that it's actually not safe and why it isn't. You're all just speculating all over and that's what I hate. Everyone can make claims - it's not hard, but you actually have to give them some value.

It is common sense that the less you lengthen then less chances of complications and faster recovery. This should not be hard to comprehend.

And where exactly did I try to argue with that? Point me out.

i understand that you want to believe that it is true to justify the ammount you lengthened, but lets get realistic here.

Haha, this has nothing to do with me, I don't need to 'justify' my amount lengthened, as it was completely complications free.

The one source you posted did not mention anything about the actual ammount of cm the patients where lengthening

Here you http://www.archives-pmr.org/article/S0003-9993%2809%2900967-8/pdf
In this series of patients, the range in percentage lengthening was between 5% and 18%

Also this test does not take into account how active or athletic the patients where before the LL process
Finally these tests (the dynamometer and the leg extensor) do not test the patients agility and mobility of the legs after LL

Dude, I don't understand why YOU don't show me a research which shows correlation between amount lengthened and muscle strength/athletic ability. I'm still waiting for it. Or is everyone supposed to take your word for it?

You're definitely a complete retard, if I would be running this forum you would have been banned a long time ago.

Hey Apo, why did you change your nickname?

claimed that people naturally have shorter wingspan than height without providing source

Here you go, np: http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/37/1/157.full

Figure 1–
Bland–Altman comparisons a, b) between measured height (H) and height estimated from arm span (AS) to height fixed ratio calculated from our population data for each sex (1.01 for females (a, c, e) and 1.02 for males (b, d, f)), c, d) between H and height estimated from AS regression equation with correction for age and e, f) between measured height and height estimated from the identity document height (H-ID) regression equation with correction for age. —: bias; bias confidence limits (±2 sem) are not represented on the diagrams because of their very small magnitudes. ---: limits of agreement (±2 sd). Estimated heights calculated from AS and H-ID regression equations, taking age into account, show good correction of bias. Variance for estimation from H-ID is significantly lower than for estimation from arm span (p<0.001).

http://www.josonline.org/pdf/v9i1p19.pdf

Another graph showing clearly that people can have AS shorter than their height.

Kinda funny how I'm the only one who cares to back up statements with actual data, I guess everyone else thinks that anything coming from their mouth is true by default.

[123]

Bland–Altman comparisons a, b) between measured height (H) and height estimated from arm span (AS) to height fixed ratio calculated from our population data for each sex (1.01 for females (a, c, e) and 1.02 for males (b, d, f)), c, d)

Like I said, you are not a very clever man, so you clearly didn't understand this study, you just picked out a few graphs without explaining the context.

Table 1
Various physical measurements of the women in the study (n=505)
Physical measurements Mean Standard deviation Range
Age (Years) 29.66
Sitting height (cm) 79.35
Standing height (cm) 156.88
Leg length (cm) 77.53
Arm span (cm) 159.14

(http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/37/1/157.full)

And maybe you should google what linear regression is because you also didn't understand that and please don't try to make yourself look intelligent with studies because you're clearly not.

There is a reason you were banned from old forum  and the reason was that you talk nonsense.

And finally LL was a waste on you, you are still, lets put kindly, an unlikeable person, your life would be still miserable even if you were 195cm. Once a loser always a loser.

[Overdozer]

Oh, Mr. Clever Man doesn't know difference between average and standart deviation. With the same logic you can tell me that all people are 5'9 tall, because that's the average around the world! Well I'm not trying to seem intelligent, but you definitely don't seem to be either.

And finally LL was a waste on you, you are still, lets put kindly, an unlikeable person, your life would be still miserable even if you were 195cm. Once a loser always a loser.

That actually made me giggle. I'll probably stop right there, as this... 'discussion' isn't going anywhere. If you find studies that confirm correlation between amount lengthened and athletic ability/muscle strength, let me know!

[wannabetaller]

Ok,stop arguin u two.Exclide,so how much u did on your tibs at the end?

[Wannabegiant]

Exclixide, looking at that study, majority of the patients did femur lengthening, and we already established that the safe limit for femur lengthening is higher than for the tibia.

In fact not a single one of the patients did tibia only, and not even one of these patients did over 7 cm on one segment, the highest was 6.6 cm on femurs which one patient did.

[ShortyMcShort]

Let him do what he wants, if he wants to do 10cms let him... Heck do 15cms for all I care 

[IwannaBeTaller]

I did 5cm on tibs and ended up realising it was for nothing. You adapt to such tiny increase very fast and soon you question yourself did you actually even lengthen that 5cm.

This is so much bull . 5 cm is a just a tiny increase according to you, but 7 is totally worth it?

[wannabetaller]

5cm is ok,its noticable for sure.My dream is 8cm tops.So Exclide,u did 5cm?Why didn't you do 10 if u think thats ok to do?

[Overdozer]

5cm is ok,its noticable for sure.My dream is 8cm tops.So Exclide,u did 5cm?Why didn't you do 10 if u think thats ok to do?

I did 5cm and ended up breaking my tibias again and also femur to pull off desired height. 5cm don't cure height neurosis.

This is so much bulls**t. 5 cm is a just a tiny increase according to you, but 7 is totally worth it?

Yeah, that's like 50% increase, it's a good gain.

[IwannaBeTaller]

I did 5cm and ended up breaking my tibias again and also femur to pull off desired height. 5cm don't cure height neurosis.
Yeah, that's like 50% increase, it's a good gain.

It depends on the person. A guy with 1,73 is gonna be 1,78 after lengthening 5, which is perfectly fine, a different person might want more, although 2 cm really is just a tiny difference. That doesn't mean that lengthening 10 cm is easy or advisable though.

[Moubgf]

Exclixide, looking at that study, majority of the patients did femur lengthening, and we already established that the safe limit for femur lengthening is higher than for the tibia.

"""", and not even one of these patients did over 7 cm on one segment, the highest was 6.6 cm on femurs which one patient did.

Wow wow wait.. So you are saying they lengthened both tibia and femur at the same time?

[Wannabegiant]

Wow wow wait.. So you are saying they lengthened both tibia and femur at the same time?

I didnt read the whole study so i dont know if they did cross lengthening, but it clearly said several of the patients lengthened both tibia and femur, while the rest only lengthened femurs. They tested them after 2 years and apparantly they had recovered by then so its likely they did both segments at the same time or in close proximity to each other.

[Moubgf]

I didnt read the whole study so i dont know if they did cross lengthening, but it clearly said several of the patients lengthened both tibia and femur, while the rest only lengthened femurs. They tested them after 2 years and apparantly they had recovered by then so its likely they did both segments at the same time or in close proximity to each other.

Do you think lengthening femurs and tibia at the same time is more difficult than just tibia. Ofcourse it is but i mean is it really that much of a difference. You are still bedridden everything the same.

[Wannabegiant]

Do you think lengthening femurs and tibia at the same time is more difficult than just tibia. Ofcourse it is but i mean is it really that much of a difference. You are still bedridden everything the same.

I think it has to be much much more difficult, considering i dont think you will be able to weight bear at all for the first months (maybe im wrong but i have a hard time imagining anybody walking early with 6 broken bones) also, the bones will heal much slower..

I think it would be to much trauma for the body to take all at once. I dont know but there is a reason why most doctors are against it.

[Moubgf]

But maybe if you do tibia like 1 month before and then femurs and finish still the same at the end. 7.5 tibia an 5-6 on femur ?.

Not that im gonna do this..still got me interested when you mentioned that other people have done it.

[Moubgf]

Also did the time after you left the hospital "done lengthening"

Did the time go quick for recovery.

Like 2 months just flew by and now you are almost walking again?

[G-Man]

10cm is easy, even kids do more

I see that they let you use internet at your institution but they clearly don't supervise the patients!

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

I see that they let you use internet at your institution but they clearly don't supervise the patients!

ROFL!

10 cm is an unrealistic goal. in most cases it will end in a very bad way.

(6cm tibia , then 6 cm femur is a good goal.) (7.5cm if you are only doing 1 segment)(as a max)

if you want more than a little lengthening then you need to do 2 surgeries if for whatever reason you sit there and state reason after reason why you cant do 2 surgeries.........then.............. tuff fking luck  lol be happy with a smaller goal.

if you a poor that does not make more lengthening on 1 segment safer.
if you have not got the time 2 lengthen 2 segments, that does not make more lengthening on 1 segment safer.
stop playing the numbers game because your trying to maximize the return for your investment on 1 surgery.

5 cm is a noticeable gain. and it will seem like less of an achievement if you have a greater psychological issue.
it all has to do with whether your height neurosis is driven by internal or external factors.

[KiloKAHN]

Function over length is something to consider. If you find yourself with complications far before 10 cm then push your goal back to something more realistic for your body. Even if you do get to 10 cm it's going to take an insane amount of time to recover fully.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

very well said kilokahn.

I think 1 point to add which this thread has not mentioned (correct me if it has been mentioned)

is that like tall from old forum  stated.

he got it think it was 11cm on femur and then had to go back and get an additional surgery for tibia because of the disproportional difference which would have resulted in arthritis in old age.

the reason I mention this is because I get the feeling that people who are aiming for 10 cm are doing so to maximize the outcome of 1 surgery because they don't want to get 2 surgeries.

however as I just stated if you lengthen that much in 1 section you HAVE TO then get the second segment lengthened or you will develop arthritis.

so lengthening this much to avoid getting 2 surgeries defeats the purpose because then you have to get a second surgery due to the change in proportions.


TALL FROM old forum

As some of you know I competed my Internal Femur LLing with Dr. Augustine Betz in Fall 2006. Since that time I have enjoyed my current height: 188CM. The height increase has been amazing! During the past few years I have been experiencing minor knee pain & discomfort. During various examinations by orthopedic doctors, I have been advised that in order to avoid future problems with my knees (arthritis) that I needed to correct the discrepancy between my femur/tibia ratio which was caused by my femur legthening. Don't get me wrong, I am very proud of my lengthening with Dr. Betz as I was his first 11CM patient. But, this confirms what I already knew & that was that most individuals should not legthen beyond 7.5 CM. I state this in most cases, as I know everyone's body is different and there are exceptions to the rule.

So I will be legthening both of my tibias separately by 6.5 CM with the new PRECICE nail

[ReadRothbard]

Yes, RGKey looks fantastic. But, he had exceptionally short legs and a very big, broad upper body to begin with.

I have very short legs and an extremely large, broad-shouldered, long upper body (2 inches longer than the average 5'10 man). Here is a picture of me with 10 cm added to both the tibias and femurs (20 cm total).

So I don't think proportions will be a problem (I could care less about arm length); I'm just wondering about athletic ability.

[ReadRothbard]

How are you doing my old forum  friend 

I plan on doing the lengthening with Dr. Guichet using his internals; he claims I can make it to 10 cm, figuring I am very athletic. What do you guys think? Would 7-8 cm be better?

[ReadRothbard]

very well said kilokahn.

I think 1 point to add which this thread has not mentioned (correct me if it has been mentioned)

is that like tall from old forum  stated.

he got it think it was 11cm on femur and then had to go back and get an additional surgery for tibia because of the disproportional difference which would have resulted in arthritis in old age.

the reason I mention this is because I get the feeling that people who are aiming for 10 cm are doing so to maximize the outcome of 1 surgery because they don't want to get 2 surgeries.

however as I just stated if you lengthen that much in 1 section you HAVE TO then get the second segment lengthened or you will develop arthritis.

so lengthening this much to avoid getting 2 surgeries defeats the purpose because then you have to get a second surgery due to the change in proportions.


TALL FROM old forum

I definitely plan on lengthening the femurs 10 cm, too if you guys think it's safe. What do you think?

[Moubgf]

I have very short legs and an extremely large, broad-shouldered, long upper body (2 inches longer than the average 5'10 man). Here is a picture of me with 10 cm added to both the tibias and femurs (20 cm total).

So I don't think proportions will be a problem (I could care less about arm length); I'm just wondering about athletic ability.

No your torso is short and you are not broad shouldered, just fat and stocky. Want proof? stand on a stool and mask your legs..Not so broad now are ya.
Also your wingspan is borderline midget i see a max increase of 6 cm before you start to look unproportional.

[ReadRothbard]

Your muscle will never be explosive again after 10cm.

There is do much more to it than just bones and muscles.

It's frightening to see individuals totaly believe that 10cm is easy or that they wiLL Forumully recover. Christ!!

Being stronger after LL doesn't say more than the actual person can push more weights at the gym. Anyone can do that but jumping high or doing backflips is something different which he will never be able to do again.

To kick fast is also impossible after LL or to do a spinning round kick bc your longer leg breaks up the speed when you're spinning.

Not that you need to be able to do this, but 10cm is devastating for your body. It will also look very weird.

You might be right. My proportions can handle it, but it might be too much to recover from. I think I'll just go for about 7.5 cm on my femurs, then another 7.5 on my tibias to reach just under 6'1.