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Author Topic: Strongly considering LL surgery - been obsessed with height since late teens  (Read 57832 times)

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Overdozer

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definitely seems like max I should be lengthening is 6cm
Please, don't spread nonsense :( :'(

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Should I go 5cm or is 6cm ok?
Are you seriously asking that?

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No idea whether to do it on tibias or femurs.
Do the mockups and see for yourself, it's a matter of preference. It's easier and cheaper to lengthen tibias with externals though.
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Pre-surgery - 167 cm, Post-surgery - 181 cm
Final arm span - 177 cm, Sitting height - 90 cm

Lengthened 7.5 cm in tibias and femurs and 3.5 cm in each humerus. Surgeries performed all external by Dr. Kulesh, in Saint-Petersburg, Russia - http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1671.0

endomorphisme

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@ IwannaBeTaller
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If everyone would do LL, including average and tall people, because "taller is always better", everyone would just be 10 cm taller, the ones who were tall before would still be tall and the short ones still short, and the suffering of the short ones would still be the same. Only now everyone would have damaged, disproportionally long legs. It would change nothing. LL only makes sense if only a little part of the population does it.

LL is too expensive, so most people can't afford it, plus, most men are not self conscious about height like us, they don't even know heightism exist.LL will never become mainstream such as  liposuction or breast augmentation.


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tapemeasure

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Please, don't spread nonsense :( :'(
Are you seriously asking that?
Do the mockups and see for yourself, it's a matter of preference. It's easier and cheaper to lengthen tibias with externals though.

Sorry, I just read on some other threads that more than 5-6cm has many complications.
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Overdozer

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@ IwannaBeTaller
LL is too expensive, so most people can't afford it, plus, most men are not self conscious about height like us, they don't even know heightism exist.LL will never become mainstream such as  liposuction or breast augmentation.
It's true. Also the surgery itself is very brutal and rehab is very long, it wont ever become mainstream, BUT using hormones to boost children's height will quite soon.

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more than 5-6cm has many complications.
This is pure speculation, as it's totally individual. You can lengthen 3cm and get screwed and you can lengthen 10 and be alright.
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Pre-surgery - 167 cm, Post-surgery - 181 cm
Final arm span - 177 cm, Sitting height - 90 cm

Lengthened 7.5 cm in tibias and femurs and 3.5 cm in each humerus. Surgeries performed all external by Dr. Kulesh, in Saint-Petersburg, Russia - http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1671.0

Wannabegiant

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It's true. Also the surgery itself is very brutal and rehab is very long, it wont ever become mainstream, BUT using hormones to boost children's height will quite soon.
This is pure speculation, as it's totally individual. You can lengthen 3cm and get screwed and you can lengthen 10 and be alright.

It isnt speculation though, many doctors claim 15% of original bone length as the limit, also we have doctors like Franz here on the forum saying that over 5 cm you increase the risk substantially of getting complications and long term negative effects. Same with Dr lee if you read walk6:s diary on the old forum, the doctor told him that patients of his who lengthened 5 cm or less returned close to 100% pre LL athletism, while those who did 6-7 cm recovered to ca 60% of previous athleticism on average. Normal activities where not affected so im assuming they mean individuals who did high level sports like Sweden, otherwise you might not notice the loss of athleticism.

Now its true that some patients can recover better than others, but its not speculation that its much safer to lengthen 5 cm or less, an that you will reach a higher level of recovery compared to if you did 6 cm or more.
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Overdozer

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They can claim anything. There is zero scientific data to support such claims. Listen, I've been through two surgeries and I've seen a lot of people lengthening. What do you think happens, when you go over 5cm? So you have no ballerina, no muscule contracture and then BOOM, you're at 5.1 cm and everything goes poof, right? That number is so random, dude, you can't dumbify it so much. Like I said, everything is highly individual.
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Pre-surgery - 167 cm, Post-surgery - 181 cm
Final arm span - 177 cm, Sitting height - 90 cm

Lengthened 7.5 cm in tibias and femurs and 3.5 cm in each humerus. Surgeries performed all external by Dr. Kulesh, in Saint-Petersburg, Russia - http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1671.0

Wannabegiant

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They can claim anything. There is zero scientific data to support such claims. Listen, I've been through two surgeries and I've seen a lot of people lengthening. What do you think happens, when you go over 5cm? So you have no ballerina, no muscule contracture and then BOOM, you're at 5.1 cm and everything goes poof, right? That number is so random, dude, you can't dumbify it so much. Like I said, everything is highly individual.

Im sure there are patient records and other studies which the doctors have access to which they make their assessment from. The figure they state is not coming from nowhere.

And you are still lengthening so what happens in this period isnt that important, its your recovery which will more than likely not be as good as it would be if you did less. You might recover better compared to a few cases of patients who did under 5 cm, but majority of people lengthening 5 cm will recover better than majority of people lengthening 7 cm or more.
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Overdozer

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Im sure there are patient records and other studies which the doctors have access to which they make their assessment from. The figure they state is not coming from nowhere.
If there are studies, then link them. Until then, I claim the magic 5 cm to be no more, than speculation.
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Pre-surgery - 167 cm, Post-surgery - 181 cm
Final arm span - 177 cm, Sitting height - 90 cm

Lengthened 7.5 cm in tibias and femurs and 3.5 cm in each humerus. Surgeries performed all external by Dr. Kulesh, in Saint-Petersburg, Russia - http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1671.0

TRS

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If there are studies, then link them. Until then, I claim the magic 5 cm to be no more, than speculation.
Common sense is that the less you lengthen then the chances of better recovery and lower complications is higher. In terms of safe distance lengthening i will quote the study i posted a while ago.
Effects of bone lengthening on surrounding tissues
Gradual bone lengthening has a negative impact on the surrounding muscles through stretch, impalement by pins and wires, pain and inflammation. The speed of the gain in length during callotasis with a 1-mm/day rate is about four to eight times faster than during the adolescent growth spurt with its temporary muscle shortenings [8]. No wonder that the clinical challenges of muscle distraction and subsequent decrease of adjacent joint range of motion go in parallel with the amount of lengthening. This is reflected by histological changes after lengthening of more than 30 % of its original length [22, 116–119], as the whole muscle from origin to insertion is stretched [81]. The elastic limit of stretched muscles (strength–strain curve) is 10–15 % of the length at rest. Excessive stretch leads to plastic deformation and subsequent contractures, which commonly affect muscles spanning two joints (rectus femoris, hamstrings). There are only few data about the loss of muscle power during the distraction–consolidation process and the speed and amount of recovery thereafter. There is a small residual decrease in muscle strength and power after surgical lengthening without any impact on the activities of daily living [120]. Pre-operative muscle training as a preventive measure and a post-operative intense rehabilitation programme including continuous passive motion, extension splint, strengthening and stretching exercises, as well as proprioceptive training, are mandatory until the pre-operative level is reached [66]. Nerves and vessels adapt in length during the distraction process and recover from temporary degenerative changes within 2 months after the halting of distraction [104]. Excessive gradual (>20–30 %) or acute distraction (>15 %) may both lead to partial or complete loss of nerve potentials [121, 122].

Joint cartilage may be exposed to reactive forces which increase linearly with distraction [123]. In addition, non-weight-bearing and decreased range of motion diminishes nutrition of the cartilage and may support histological changes which appear after 30 % lengthening in animal experiments [124, 125].

Physeal cartilage shows experimental histopathological changes secondary to increased axial load [124]. However, alterations of the growth rate were never observed in a clinical setting [126].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3364349/
This means that people with longer legs are able to lenghten more. But then if you lengthen lower then 15% of the original bone length then it is much more safer. Simple common sense!

Here is another study by paley that shows that for each 1cm gained by lengthening along the femur anatomical axis (internal nailing) then there is a shift of 1mm in the mechanical axis. This could increase the chance of arthritis in the future.
The effect on mechanical axis deviation of femoral lengthening with an intramedullary telescopic nail.

Authors
Burghardt RD, Paley D, Specht SC, Herzenberg JE.
Journal
J Bone Joint Surg Br. 2012 Sep;94(9):1241-5. doi: 10.1302/0301-620X.94B9.28672.

Affiliation
Abstract
Internal lengthening devices in the femur lengthen along the anatomical axis, potentially creating lateral shift of the mechanical axis. We aimed to determine whether femoral lengthening along the anatomical axis has an inadvertent effect on lower limb alignment. Isolated femoral lengthening using the Intramedullary Skeletal Kinetic Distractor was performed in 27 femora in 24 patients (mean age 32 years (16 to 57)). Patients who underwent simultaneous realignment procedures or concurrent tibial lengthening, or who developed mal- or nonunion, were excluded. Pre-operative and six-month post-operative radiographs were used to measure lower limb alignment. The mean lengthening achieved was 4.4 cm (1.5 to 8.0). In 26 of 27 limbs, the mechanical axis shifted laterally by a mean of 1.0 mm/cm of lengthening (0 to 3.5). In one femur that was initially in varus, a 3 mm medial shift occurred during a lengthening of 2.2 cm. In a normally aligned limb, intramedullary lengthening along the anatomical axis of the femur results in a lateral shift of the mechanical axis by approximately 1 mm for each 1 cm of lengthening.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22933497/

So the conclusion is very simple, the lower you lengthen the higher chance of safe recovery and a lower risk of long term complications.
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theuprising

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If there are studies, then link them. Until then, I claim the magic 5 cm to be no more, than speculation.

I swear there is a guy like this every month or two that gets on this site trying to convince everyone
that they won't look disproportionate after their lengthening.

Info gets posted proving them wrong and they disappear. Should sticky the safe lengthening limit
information so they can just be directed to that thread.
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123

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If there are studies, then link them. Until then, I claim the magic 5 cm to be no more, than speculation.

It's not speculation, most orthopedic surgeons won't lengthen over 6cm. And btw your "claim" means nothing, you are just completely wrong. 
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KiloKAHN

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I understand having taller family members can drive one for surgery. I hated being 5'5 at gatherings where I'd often have to convince others that i'm really the brother of two guys who are around 6'2 and 6'4 and a woman who's 5'10 :/
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Initial height: 164 cm / ~5'5" (Surgery on 6/25/2014)
Current height: 170 cm / 5'7" (Frames removed 6/29/2015)
External Tibia lengthening performed by Dr Mangal Parihar in Mumbai, India.
My Cosmetic Leg Lengthening Experience

IwannaBeTaller

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I understand having taller family members can drive one for surgery. I hated being 5'5 at gatherings where I'd often have to convince others that i'm really the brother of two guys who are around 6'2 and 6'4 and a woman who's 5'10 :/

And that was really natural? It surprises me how nature works sometimes. Did you see doctors during your growth and did they confirm everything was alright?
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It's a long way to find peace of mind, peace of mind
It's a long way to find peace of mind, peace of mind.

KiloKAHN

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And that was really natural? It surprises me how nature works sometimes. Did you see doctors during your growth and did they confirm everything was alright?

Yes, health wise everything was fine. I was just naturally short. Reason for the big height difference is that I have a different mother from them. Their mother was 5'10 and their maternal grandfather was 6'3. My mother is 5'0 and my maternal grandfather was 5'3. At least I ended up with a stocky physique and wasn't frail, though the last time me and my siblings were together at a party one person described me as "the thumb in a room full of fingers".
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Initial height: 164 cm / ~5'5" (Surgery on 6/25/2014)
Current height: 170 cm / 5'7" (Frames removed 6/29/2015)
External Tibia lengthening performed by Dr Mangal Parihar in Mumbai, India.
My Cosmetic Leg Lengthening Experience

tapemeasure

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Wow, so if I lengthen 5cm, I will be fine and recover to 100% of my athletic ability. But 1 extra centimetre and suddenly there will be complications and I will only recover to 60% of my athletic ability?

That doesn't make much sense. My ideal aim was to lengthen 3 inches (7.5cm) but I might have to settle for 2 inches (5cm).
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Taller

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Obviously that isn't going to be exactly the case for you. That's more of a general trend,many the complications appear around 5-6CM, not the second you cross the 5CM mark.

Lengthen to 5CM, see how your body handles it, and, if you're fairly complication free and flexible, go for one extra centimeter. Don't go for 7.5 though. I wouldn't personally recommend over 6 for the tibiae. Your chances of full recovery are just too low.

On the femurs, you can get away with up to 8CM and fully recover if you do vigorous physical therapy. Look at Shyshy's patient experience as an example.
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shortkid

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So what about lengthening 8cm with paley?
That's a bad idea?
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Taller

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So what about lengthening 8cm with paley?
That's a bad idea?

I think you'd probably recover decently from it, as I've never heard of a bad result with Dr. Paley, and Dr. Paley probably wouldn't let you lengthen to 8CM if he didn't foresee you making a full recovery. However, your proportions could possibly look terrible and freakish afterwards, so proceed with caution. It will take a very very long time too.
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Overdozer

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On the femurs, you can get away with up to 8CM and fully recover
This is so random, lol, you guys seem to have no idea what you're talking about. I've lengthened my tibia 7.5cm and I had zero complications, imagine that, no ballerina, no knee contracture, nothing, while when I lengthened my femur at 3cm a nice knee contracture has apperead, now I got to 8cm anyways, obviously it got worse there, but I worked it out TWO weeks after stopping lengthening, so what's your point with your magic 5cm, I should have stopped there to save a week of PT? Seriously, stop talking nonsense, I'm getting really mad now!


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I swear there is a guy like this every month or two that gets on this site trying to convince everyone
that they won't look disproportionate after their lengthening.
Surely they won't. Most of guys obsessed with proportions are clearly delusional and possibly have paranoid personality disorder. They don't understand a simple fact that proportions do NOT come in just one, as they think in their delusional world, like 50% torso, 50% legs, 1:1 height/arm span! Nah, imagine what? It's all different! They've come to being so ignorant to think that lengthening 5cm can actually hurt your proportions. It's not like people have arm spans both shorter and longer, than their height, or legs, taking up from 45% to 55% of the body. I'm tired arguing with you guys, you're all very stubborn, just do some research seriously, what's with all this empty talk?
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Pre-surgery - 167 cm, Post-surgery - 181 cm
Final arm span - 177 cm, Sitting height - 90 cm

Lengthened 7.5 cm in tibias and femurs and 3.5 cm in each humerus. Surgeries performed all external by Dr. Kulesh, in Saint-Petersburg, Russia - http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1671.0

Taller

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Very, very few men have armspans naturally shorter than their heights. On average, males have armspans 5-6CM more than their heights and women have armspans 2-4CM more than their heights. In normal growth patterns, both genders' armspans will exceed their height around mid puberty.

This is a discussion. Why are you coming off so angry, to the point of accusing us of having personality disorders?
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Overdozer

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Very, very few men have armspans naturally shorter than their heights. On average, males have armspans 5-6CM more than their heights and women have armspans 2-4CM more than their heights. In normal growth patterns, both genders' armspans will exceed their heigh around mid puberty.
Look: when you make a claim, you want to support it with scientific data, because I can do that too:
Very, very few men have armspans naturally longer than their heights. On average, males have armspans 5-6CM less than their heights and women have armspans 2-4CM less than their heights.

And please, don't link me data with african people.
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Pre-surgery - 167 cm, Post-surgery - 181 cm
Final arm span - 177 cm, Sitting height - 90 cm

Lengthened 7.5 cm in tibias and femurs and 3.5 cm in each humerus. Surgeries performed all external by Dr. Kulesh, in Saint-Petersburg, Russia - http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1671.0

123

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Look: when you make a claim, you want to support it with scientific data, because I can do that too:
Very, very few men have armspans naturally longer than their heights. On average, males have armspans 5-6CM less than their heights and women have armspans 2-4CM less than their heights.

And please, don't link me data with african people.

Wtf, either you're trolling or you are retarted.

A simple google search and you find this:

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/bodyproportions.crapml
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=averages


So you're just wrong.
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Overdozer

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You gotta be kidding me. Link me data from a reliable source, they don't even state where all of the data comes from. Try searching here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov I wont accept any other source.
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Pre-surgery - 167 cm, Post-surgery - 181 cm
Final arm span - 177 cm, Sitting height - 90 cm

Lengthened 7.5 cm in tibias and femurs and 3.5 cm in each humerus. Surgeries performed all external by Dr. Kulesh, in Saint-Petersburg, Russia - http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1671.0

123

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You gotta be kidding me. Link me data from a reliable source, they don't even state where all of the data comes from. Try searching here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov I wont accept any other source.

Lol, like anybody cares what you accept or don't and btw you want to tell me that NBA measurements are not reliable? Based on those measurements people make million dollar choices. So you're just wrong. Go out and measure 10 people or 1000 and tell me the results most of them will have wingspan>height.

Or try to prove me wrong or even better don't even try, because you're wrong anyway.
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Overdozer

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NBA measurements
Ok, I see that you're the one trolling. Or do you seriously don't understand that having huge arm span is #1 attribute in basketball? You might as well tell me that I should be seeing NBA measurements to determine average height.
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Pre-surgery - 167 cm, Post-surgery - 181 cm
Final arm span - 177 cm, Sitting height - 90 cm

Lengthened 7.5 cm in tibias and femurs and 3.5 cm in each humerus. Surgeries performed all external by Dr. Kulesh, in Saint-Petersburg, Russia - http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1671.0

123

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Ok, I see that you're the one trolling. Or do you seriously don't understand that having huge arm span is #1 attribute in basketball? You might as well tell me that I should be seeing NBA measurements to determine average height.

Ok genius, why don't you show any of your many studies that proof your statement. Still waiting.
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Orlando

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This is pure speculation, as it's totally individual. You can lengthen 3cm and get screwed and you can lengthen 10 and be alright.

I agree there is no magical benchmark for everyone, the 5-6cm rule is a general guideline. The higher you cross that the more you risk complications.  It's up to individual recovery.   

There is a study about this topic here
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=768.msg12944#msg12944

Dr Donghoon Lee on lengthening amount
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=145.0

Limb lengthening is a process that involves not only the bone but also the soft tissue surrounding the bone. Especially when muscle is lengthened, even after recovery, sports ability (especially when playing vigorous sports) might not return 100%. The more the bone is lengthened, the more probability sports ability will not fully recover.

According to  Park's report (Park HW et al, JBJS,2008 ) , 25% of the people who lengthen the tibia(6cm in average) was found to have some difficulties in persuing vigorous activity

If both Tibia and Femur are lengthened sequentially, the maximum to be 10cm in total. But, one more important thing is to consider body ratio. So, I recommend to decide the target considering the safety, recovery of sports activity and body ratio.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 07:47:13 PM by Orlando »
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tapemeasure

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Very, very few men have armspans naturally shorter than their heights. On average, males have armspans 5-6CM more than their heights and women have armspans 2-4CM more than their heights. In normal growth patterns, both genders' armspans will exceed their height around mid puberty.

This is a discussion. Why are you coming off so angry, to the point of accusing us of having personality disorders?

Just measured my armspan and it was 1-1.5 inches shorter than my height. Guess I am an anomoly?
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IwannaBeTaller

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Just measured my armspan and it was 1-1.5 inches shorter than my height. Guess I am an anomoly?

It's just not as common, but still perfectly natural and normal.
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It's a long way to find peace of mind, peace of mind
It's a long way to find peace of mind, peace of mind.

Sweden

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Just measured my armspan and it was 1-1.5 inches shorter than my height. Guess I am an anomoly?

Or maybe you just don't know how to measure yourself.
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173cm before LL with Sarin, jan -13. Now 180cm tall. Considering 5cm on femurs.

tapemeasure

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Or maybe you just don't know how to measure yourself.

Why do you think I don't know how to measure myself? Would you like me to take another measurement of height and arm span just to make sure?
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