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[maxheight35]

Got it, that makes more sense. What is so different with Betz post surgery?

I know with most other docs, you get sent home a few days later with some instructions etc. Paley Institute I know makes you stay local during the whole duration of the lengthening process.

With Becker post surgery, he’s told me that moving forward it’s recommended for patients to stay at least 30 days post-op to get in a good routine. And tbh this place is amazing, I’m still mind blown at how luxury the hotel and clinic is. The staff here are very cool as well.

[maxheight35]

Great!! Only 169*30=5040 Euros per month

How long does the doctor recommend staying in the room? And how much in total do you plan to spend for the entire thing (surgery, room, food, etc)?

The first 12 days are included in the price. So I’m only paying for the 16 days extra, plus the food from hotel etc. Overall with total cost I’m not sure yet because I flew first class from the US. That was like $9k, and tbh on the way home I will probably do that again. Having the extra leg room is nice.

I’m estimating total cost for me personally will be around $80-$90k. Totally worth it considering the circumstances with extra CM, mobility, the whole experience etc.

[maxheight35]

@maxheight35

So the resort is called "Parkhotel Weiskirchen"? Do you have a perosnal care taker? Do they deliver the breakfast, lunch and dinner to your room?

What are your daily activities there?

It’s called Dorint hotel. Here’s the link:

https://hotel-freiburg.dorint.com/de/

No personal caretaker, but everyone here is super helpful and anything I’ve needed I’ve gotten.

Food can get delivered to the room via room service, but it’s kinda nice to go down and talk to the people. Helps time pass lol.

Daily activities are pretty routine now, here’s mine:

8am wake up
shower, meditate, stretch

9am
go down for breakfast buffet, hang there and chat with people for about an hour

10am
hit the clinic, 1 hour massage on legs, train

12pm noon
Lunch at clinic side, hang out with the other LL patients

1pm
back to the room, stretch, ice my legs 20 min rotation for 1 hour

3pm
back to the gym, train upper body, cardio bike session

5pm
dinner at hotel or clinic, I rotate

6pm
back to the room for an ice session

730pm
back to the gym for more stretching and exercise

830pm
back to room. if hungry I do room service

1030pm
read my books, sleep


It’s a cycle but it’s chill. This is my first week here as well so the routine might change up as time goes on but I feel busy and peace of mind with this current flow.

[maxheight35]

Really appreciate you documenting the process.  I have surgery with him in January myself.  Would you mind posting the incision wounds?  Really curious about that.  Thanks.

For sure man. I was on this forum lurking for 3 years so it feels good to finally have the opportunity to share my experience.

Excited for your surgery in January. My advice is to do a lot of cardio in the meantime, and start doing yoga 2-3x a week. It will help you massively and give you a good advantage!

New story / highlight posted to the IG… the stockings finally came off and you can see my legs and the tape over the incisions!

[SpeedDialer]

The first 12 days are included in the price. So I’m only paying for the 16 days extra, plus the food from hotel etc. Overall with total cost I’m not sure yet because I flew first class from the US. That was like $9k, and tbh on the way home I will probably do that again. Having the extra leg room is nice.

I’m estimating total cost for me personally will be around $80-$90k. Totally worth it considering the circumstances with extra CM, mobility, the whole experience etc.

That's awesome, I wonder if more patients will consider weight bearing clicking tibia nails if you have continue to have a great experience

I have a feeling that especially for certain high income individuals (like apotheosis of the old forum and probably you too based on the below quote), 90k USD could be totally worth it if it means they can get to work again faster --so weight bearing clicking tibia nails could be a great option for those kind of people

"because I flew first class from the US"

It feels like for the next few years, the forum users will have to make a decision (weight bearing clicking tibia nails vs precise for tibias) depending on what happens when the next precise nail comes out I guess. My fingers are crossed I'll be able to lose enough weight that I can weight bear with precise 2's biggest nail (heard a rumor that it might even be able to support 68 kg, not sure) but its not certain and there are dangers

I wonder if the USA did not allow clicking nails because of the risk of a patient doing too many clicks / disobeying the doctor. But then again, even externals patients can do that. I'm assuming with precise (vaguely remember Dr. Parihar mentioning this) that the doctor can pre-program a hard limit to stop a patient from going past 6cm or 7cm or something

[EndGame]

For sure man. I was on this forum lurking for 3 years so it feels good to finally have the opportunity to share my experience.

Excited for your surgery in January. My advice is to do a lot of cardio in the meantime, and start doing yoga 2-3x a week. It will help you massively and give you a good advantage!

New story / highlight posted to the IG… the stockings finally came off and you can see my legs and the tape over the incisions!

Great journal and IG. Much appreciated. Is there more than the 3 stories? See week 1, week 2, and therapy clinic but not new one showing legs no stockings. Good luck with the rest of your LL journey.

[maxheight35]

Yes my cost is higher due to personal adjustments like first class but you don’t need to spend that much. The surgery itself for tibias is only 56k euro and everything else you can budget along the way.

If you want to do tibia I would recommend contacting Becker and doing a call with him. It’s fully weight bearing and you actually can’t do too many clicks because you’re maxed out 12cm with this nail and if the patient did aggressive clicking you would definitely feel the pain.

I start clicking tomorrow so will share my experience on this as well.

That's awesome, I wonder if more patients will consider weight bearing clicking tibia nails if you have continue to have a great experience

I have a feeling that especially for certain high income individuals (like apotheosis of the old forum and probably you too based on the below quote), 90k USD could be totally worth it if it means they can get to work again faster --so weight bearing clicking tibia nails could be a great option for those kind of people

"because I flew first class from the US"

It feels like for the next few years, the forum users will have to make a decision (weight bearing clicking tibia nails vs precise for tibias) depending on what happens when the next precise nail comes out I guess. My fingers are crossed I'll be able to lose enough weight that I can weight bear with precise 2's biggest nail (heard a rumor that it might even be able to support 68 kg, not sure) but its not certain and there are dangers

I wonder if the USA did not allow clicking nails because of the risk of a patient doing too many clicks / disobeying the doctor. But then again, even externals patients can do that. I'm assuming with precise (vaguely remember Dr. Parihar mentioning this) that the doctor can pre-program a hard limit to stop a patient from going past 6cm or 7cm or something

[maxheight35]

Great journal and IG. Much appreciated. Is there more than the 3 stories? See week 1, week 2, and therapy clinic but not new one showing legs no stockings. Good luck with the rest of your LL journey.

Thank you man. I just posted an hour ago my legs without the stockings, it’s currently live on the main story. It’s also added to the week 2 highlights.

[SpeedDialer]

if the patient did aggressive clicking you would definitely feel the pain.

Yeah I'm doing clicking with gnail femurs now and you're right for certain. For gnail femurs, 15 clicks = 1mm ish but it might be different for betzbone. I'm down to 10 clicks per day (about 0.66 mm per day for gnail) and my quality of life (less tightness, less pain) is muuuch better than when I had to do 15 clicks per day. I'm gonna ask Dr. Giotikas to let me go down to 9 clicks per day (0.6 mm per day) this week but I hope I'm not making an error (ex: premature consolidation risk) by wishing for something like this. I'm staying in Athens extra long. My bone growth has been pretty slow and I'm trying to do more crutches walking to improve it.

I've heard that clicking for tibias is not so bad so I have a feeling you'll have a good experience

Its nice you had this diary, I almost forgot about Betz and clicking weight bearing tibia nails before you posted but I actually wonder if betzbone tibias might be the least miserable/most enjoyable version of LL in terms of pain now that stryde is gone

I'm not sure what Guichet in France does for internal tibias

[hippo60]

I know with most other docs, you get sent home a few days later with some instructions etc. Paley Institute I know makes you stay local during the whole duration of the lengthening process.

With Becker post surgery, he’s told me that moving forward it’s recommended for patients to stay at least 30 days post-op to get in a good routine. And tbh this place is amazing, I’m still mind blown at how luxury the hotel and clinic is. The staff here are very cool as well.

Honestly it's still unclear to me what is so different with Becker but sounds like you made the right decision for you so that's great!

[lessthanavg8300]

Absolutely stretching and cardio daily right now.  Thanks!  Im excited.  Rooting for you man.

[SpeedDialer]

Yes my cost is higher due to personal adjustments like first class but you don’t need to spend that much. The surgery itself for tibias is only 56k euro and everything else you can budget along the way.

If you want to do tibia I would recommend contacting Becker and doing a call with him. It’s fully weight bearing and you actually can’t do too many clicks because you’re maxed out 12cm with this nail and if the patient did aggressive clicking you would definitely feel the pain.

I start clicking tomorrow so will share my experience on this as well.

When you were researching doctors, what are some factors that made you choose Betz over Guichet for internal clicking tibia nails? I'm assuming Guichet using the old albizzia or something for tibia, not sure but I'm assuming from the diary that you calculated that Betz should be cheaper overall?

I ask because it seems like once someone decides on a weight bearing clicking nail, betz vs Guichet is their natural next question

People have had issues w/ both I think (unicorn on this forum had problems w/ Guichet, there were more problems w/ Betz in the old forum)

[maxheight35]

Absolutely stretching and cardio daily right now.  Thanks!  Im excited.  Rooting for you man.

Awesome man, and thank you 🙏

[leonazul99]

Love it

It’s called Dorint hotel. Here’s the link:

https://hotel-freiburg.dorint.com/de/

No personal caretaker, but everyone here is super helpful and anything I’ve needed I’ve gotten.

Food can get delivered to the room via room service, but it’s kinda nice to go down and talk to the people. Helps time pass lol.

Daily activities are pretty routine now, here’s mine:

8am wake up
shower, meditate, stretch

9am
go down for breakfast buffet, hang there and chat with people for about an hour

10am
hit the clinic, 1 hour massage on legs, train

12pm noon
Lunch at clinic side, hang out with the other LL patients

1pm
back to the room, stretch, ice my legs 20 min rotation for 1 hour

3pm
back to the gym, train upper body, cardio bike session

5pm
dinner at hotel or clinic, I rotate

6pm
back to the room for an ice session

730pm
back to the gym for more stretching and exercise

830pm
back to room. if hungry I do room service

1030pm
read my books, sleep


It’s a cycle but it’s chill. This is my first week here as well so the routine might change up as time goes on but I feel busy and peace of mind with this current flow.

[Bagga]

It’s called Dorint hotel. Here’s the link:

https://hotel-freiburg.dorint.com/de/

No personal caretaker, but everyone here is super helpful and anything I’ve needed I’ve gotten.

Food can get delivered to the room via room service, but it’s kinda nice to go down and talk to the people. Helps time pass lol.

Daily activities are pretty routine now, here’s mine:

8am wake up
shower, meditate, stretch

9am
go down for breakfast buffet, hang there and chat with people for about an hour

10am
hit the clinic, 1 hour massage on legs, train

12pm noon
Lunch at clinic side, hang out with the other LL patients

1pm
back to the room, stretch, ice my legs 20 min rotation for 1 hour

3pm
back to the gym, train upper body, cardio bike session

5pm
dinner at hotel or clinic, I rotate

6pm
back to the room for an ice session

730pm
back to the gym for more stretching and exercise

830pm
back to room. if hungry I do room service

1030pm
read my books, sleep


It’s a cycle but it’s chill. This is my first week here as well so the routine might change up as time goes on but I feel busy and peace of mind with this current flow.

How can you get your buffet breakfast as you cant walk without support?

[maxheight35]

How can you get your buffet breakfast as you cant walk without support?

The hotel staff instantly offers to help which is really great!


Also, started clicking and wow it’s very weird and feels crazy lol. I setup a timer and will record every few days on each leg. Check the new IG story / highlight!

[lessthanavg8300]

The hotel looks awesome.  I wasnt sure what to expect, now I'm really excited.  Im doing the same as you with first class tickets.  The process is intense, might as well make the whole experience as comfortable as possible.

[SpeedDialer]

I was thinking for people who can afford first class tickets and want to do internal tibias, basically the decision is sort of between

Guichet vs Betz(Becker) vs Paley vs a doctor closest to you

And the issue with Paley is that your option is Precise 2 and the 5 cm limit that Dr. Paley recommends (unless you want to do 4 then rebreak and do 4 later) and the long amount of time in being in a wheelchair. Not sure if Paley lets people do more than 5cm on tibias in one go?

If you go with Guichet, well I don't know what option he does for internal tibias. The thing really confusing me is that in Athens, they told us that the G- nail cannot be used on tibias and they don't let us do that here.

However, on guichet's website, it says he uses G-nail on tibias
https://drguichet.com/article/11071/guichetr-nail/?lan=en
"The femur, tibia and humerus are the bones in which it is possible to use the nail Guichet®"

If you go with tibias Betzbone in Germany, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) its cheaper than Paley tibias or Guichet  tibias and you can do more than 5cm on tibias on in one go if you want to attempt that. And you still get the ability to walk sooner and less pain than femurs probably.

And then there is the question of "should I even want to do more than 5-6 cm?" People using the clicking tibia nails seem to do more than 5 cm more often, but I do not understand the medical/biomechanical reasons why this is achieved more often with clicking tibia nails. I wonder if the ability to walk more early for them helps with ballerina foot alot ---but I wonder if that guess is incorrect and if there is a totally different reason

I sort see why Apotheosis of the old forum went with Betz. I can't remember what the controversy over Betz was years ago though

[maxheight35]

The hotel looks awesome.  I wasnt sure what to expect, now I'm really excited.  Im doing the same as you with first class tickets.  The process is intense, might as well make the whole experience as comfortable as possible.

Nice man. Yeah the hotel is great. And yes it’s very intense lol. You have to actually work to get the results you want!

[leonazul99]

The hotel looks awesome.  I wasnt sure what to expect, now I'm really excited.  Im doing the same as you with first class tickets.  The process is intense, might as well make the whole experience as comfortable as possible.

First class here as well, love it! My friend got drunk on champagne 🥂

[maxheight35]

Yeah it’s the whole experience with Becker:

- up to 12cm although most tibia guys do only 10cm

- clicking mechanism

- full weight bearing nail

- luxury hotel / physical therapy clinic

- best price on the market! (56k euro for tibia)

- amazing post-op support.

Tanja is so cool, she comes by every few days and talks with me for like 30 minutes and just puts me in such a good positive mood.

I’d say if you have the time and can allocate 30 days in Germany for surgery and physical therapy, Becker is definitely the way to go!

I was thinking for people who can afford first class tickets and want to do internal tibias, basically the decision is sort of between

Guichet vs Betz(Becker) vs Paley vs a doctor closest to you

And the issue with Paley is that your option is Precise 2 and the 5 cm limit that Dr. Paley recommends (unless you want to do 4 then rebreak and do 4 later) and the long amount of time in being in a wheelchair. Not sure if Paley lets people do more than 5cm on tibias in one go?

If you go with Guichet, well I don't know what option he does for internal tibias. The thing really confusing me is that in Athens, they told us that the G- nail cannot be used on tibias and they don't let us do that here.

However, on guichet's website, it says he uses G-nail on tibias
https://drguichet.com/article/11071/guichetr-nail/?lan=en
"The femur, tibia and humerus are the bones in which it is possible to use the nail Guichet®"

If you go with tibias Betzbone in Germany, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) its cheaper than Paley tibias or Guichet  tibias and you can do more than 5cm on tibias on in one go if you want to attempt that. And you still get the ability to walk sooner and less pain than femurs probably.

And then there is the question of "should I even want to do more than 5-6 cm?" People using the clicking tibia nails seem to do more than 5 cm more often, but I do not understand the medical/biomechanical reasons why this is achieved more often with clicking tibia nails. I wonder if the ability to walk more early for them helps with ballerina foot alot ---but I wonder if that guess is incorrect and if there is a totally different reason

I sort see why Apotheosis of the old forum went with Betz. I can't remember what the controversy over Betz was years ago though

[leonazul99]

The hotel staff instantly offers to help which is really great!


Also, started clicking and wow it’s very weird and feels crazy lol. I setup a timer and will record every few days on each leg. Check the new IG story / highlight!

You’re very lucky with the hotel and physio.  I was at the Krankenhaus hospital (with terrible food and grumpy staff, I had to hide my friend in the bathroom at times because they were nazis with visiting hours) and had to escape the hospital during the day and stay at the holiday inn because of the intense heat and lack of ac.  Since I was already better and just sitting at the hospital one weekend  (day 11 post op) where physio wasn’t coming neither betz or his assistant, I decided to just escape for one night to holiday inn and spend the night there entirely.  I don’t think nursing noticed I was gone, came back the next day at noon, lol.  It seems like their operation and support staff got way better in Freiburg.  I never met Tanja or most of the names on here.  My physio was a guy coming for 15 min to my hospital bed and that’s it.  Half the time no one came.  Freiburg seems to be a dream compared to st ingbert.  No extra fisio outside the hospital was included in my price.

[lessthanavg8300]

What made you do tibias over femurs?  Proportions?  Are you doing both segments?

Nevermind I just read your intro, you're doing both.  Thats going to be so wild (in a good way).  Like standing on a ladder lol.  Im just doing femurs.

[maxheight35]

Oh man that sucks! Yeah Becker definitely has a proper setup! You ever think about doing another surgery? I might do femurs next year after I finish tibias.

You’re very lucky with the hotel and physio.  I was at the Krankenhaus hospital (with terrible food and grumpy staff) and had to escape the hospital during the day and stay at the holiday inn because of the intense heat and lack of ac.  Since I was already better and just sitting at the hospital one weekend  (day 11 post op) where physio wasn’t coming neither betz or his assistant, I decided to just escape for one night to holiday inn and spend the night there entirely.  I don’t think nursing noticed I was gone, came back the next day at noon, lol.  It seems like their operation and support staff got way better in Freiburg.  I never met Tanja or most of the names on here.  My physio was a guy coming for 15 min to my hospital bed and that’s it.  Half the time no one came.  Freiburg seems to be a dream compared to st ingbert.  No extra fisio outside the hospital was included in my price.

[maxheight35]

What made you do tibias over femurs?  Proportions?  Are you doing both segments?

Nevermind I just read your intro, you're doing both.  Thats going to be so wild (in a good way).  Like standing on a ladder lol.  Im just doing femurs.

LOL… yeah man. 5,3” is just too small for a guy in todays world and now that I feel comfortable with the doc, surgery, post op, etc I might as well get the max gains!

[lessthanavg8300]

I hear you, 5'3 is a tough life.  You're making the right decision.

[hippo60]

- up to 12cm although most tibia guys do only 10cm

Did you meet people who have done 10cm on tibia? How's their recovery?

[SpeedDialer]

Now I am really curious about the LL doctors who limit 5-6 on tibias cm, I'm curious what they think of people doing 7+ cm on tibias with clicking tibia nails + walking after 1 month. And vice versa, I wonder what Guichet and Becker think of precise patients usually doing 5-6 cm limits. What I don't understand is in Athens why they offer a clicking femur nail but not a weight bearing clicking tibia nail

I hope cyborg4life asks Dr. Paley or Dr. Giotikas or Dr. Becker etc about this in a future interview

Actually you know what, let's PM cyborg4life to ask if he can interview Dr. Becker, I'm gonna do that right now, I feel like he would do it if enough of us PM him

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=7753

[maxheight35]

Did you meet people who have done 10cm on tibia? How's their recovery?

Haven’t met anyone yet. I’ve seen before and after pics and a long tibia looks really good.

[maxheight35]

Yeah man you make a good point. Maybe the Betz nail has a specific design and mechanism that no other “clicking nail” has. I know he has patents and Becker said he will continue to use Betz nail.

Either way, I still believe it comes down to one’s own personal situation. Some people will work hard, stretch many hours, and really focus on the lengthening while others might be less motivated to do so which would limit the physicalities of the max CM possible.

Now I am really curious about the LL doctors who limit 5-6 on tibias cm, I'm curious what they think of people doing 7+ cm on tibias with clicking tibia nails + walking after 1 month. And vice versa, I wonder what Guichet and Becker think of precise patients usually doing 5-6 cm limits. What I don't understand is in Athens why they offer a clicking femur nail but not a weight bearing clicking tibia nail

I hope cyborg4life asks Dr. Paley or Dr. Giotikas or Dr. Becker etc about this in a future interview

Actually you know what, let's PM cyborg4life to ask if he can interview Dr. Becker, I'm gonna do that right now, I feel like he would do it if enough of us PM him

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=7753

[SpeedDialer]

- up to 12cm although most tibia guys do only 10cm

So right these numbers.. idk should we as a forum discuss this?

How do you @ someone in this forum, uh lets see, where are our fearless leaders? 

@mediumdrinkofwater

@cyborg4life

idk should I not be trying to raise a discussion about 10cm tibias? Or more generally 6.5-10 cm tibias , some kind of discussion about that

It kinda feels like the elephant in the room, I kinda feel like we should talk about it