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[LimbExtender]

Hi OzBoy39
First off, I've really enjoyed your diary and appreciate the information provided! This information is extremely valuable to some of the us who will be doing this procedure or are considering it.

I found out about CLL back in 2014/2015 and have now decided it's now or never.  I've booked my surgery bi-lateral femurs using G-nails with Dr Giotikas in December 2022!!

I understand you stayed in Athens for 2 months, then went back home.  I'm considering staying in Athens for 6 weeks then going back home. I live alone and I'm very independent.  When you were at 6 weeks how was your mobility and ability to be self sufficient?  If you lived alone do you feel like you would be self sufficient at 6 weeks or would you need assistants?  I'm really curious about driving. Do you think you would be able to drive at 6 weeks?  I'm thinking I may need to drive to PT when I'm back home. Any circumstances you think may be a problem at 6 weeks?  If at 6 weeks you don't think you'd be self sufficient, at what point do you think you would be?  Sorry for all the questions  , I'm just trying to get an idea on how independent I will be at 6 weeks. I would really appreciate you input and response!     

If anyone else who has been through the process has any input, I'd appreciate that as well.

[SpeedDialer]

Hi OzBoy39
First off, I've really enjoyed your diary and appreciate the information provided! This information is extremely valuable to some of the us who will be doing this procedure or are considering it.

I found out about CLL back in 2014/2015 and have now decided it's now or never.  I've booked my surgery bi-lateral femurs using G-nails with Dr Giotikas in December 2022!!

I understand you stayed in Athens for 2 months, then went back home.  I'm considering staying in Athens for 6 weeks then going back home. I live alone and I'm very independent.  When you were at 6 weeks how was your mobility and ability to be self sufficient?  If you lived alone do you feel like you would be self sufficient at 6 weeks or would you need assistants?  I'm really curious about driving. Do you think you would be able to drive at 6 weeks?  I'm thinking I may need to drive to PT when I'm back home. Any circumstances you think may be a problem at 6 weeks?  If at 6 weeks you don't think you'd be self sufficient, at what point do you think you would be?  Sorry for all the questions  , I'm just trying to get an idea on how independent I will be at 6 weeks. I would really appreciate you input and response!     

If anyone else who has been through the process has any input, I'd appreciate that as well.

I did gnail femur surgery in early to mid September so I actually think right now I'm roughly around 6 weeks

Right now here are the issues I'm bumping into:

- sometimes hip pain maybe 5-6 out of 10 sometimes but more often 2-3 pain will kick in (? maybe from the nail inside pushing against insides?) and sometimes that pain spreads to the rest of the leg sometimes and I gotta sorta ice pack it/wait it out for a while. Seems to be (not sure though?) related when I sit down too fast or take a step a bit too far forward. I also wonder if it is related to lying on the side, not sure though

- knee pain (3-4ish out of 10 pain)/thigh stiffness waking me up a few times each night -> I stretch/then ice pack it for a while each time

- lower leg nerve pain, sharp pain, goes from low pain to high real fast when one of my hip flexors is stretched more

- Although I think I might technically be physically able drive now, I'm a bit afraid of certain pains (like above) kicking in in the middle of driving and I wouldn't feel that comfortable doing it

- I am able to shower with the crutches, go the bathroom with the walker, and go to the taxi to PT with my crutches. I have not attempted stairs and am scared of them but I think I am technically probably able to do them with a rail to hold onto but would not feel safe doing it tbh. I will say that ordinary tasks tire me out alot more than they would normally though so that's a consideration.

- I can't really bend down to pick something off the floor that easily, I think I might technically be able to do it but don't feel safe doing it (lack of hamstring range of motion) and I just use the grabber

- Walking normally ish with crutches for me feels like a light hamstring stretch and sometimes that deep inside hip pain mentioned above kicks in after certain kinds of steps, not sure what triggers it

I'm not sure when I'd feel self sufficient, like I feel I am physically capable of alot of tasks with the assistance of crutches/walker but don't feel quite safe doing them. I feel like another month I'd feel alot better but then again my legs will also be tighter/more lengthened by then. I can see why they tell patients 6 weeks though, like I do feel so much stronger than before

If this deep hip pain would stop kicking it at various times, I'd feel alot closer to normal/more independent

Now then again, ozboy seems like his recovery has been better than mine so his input could be valuable. He has also walked alot more than me.

When are you coming to Athens?

[Bagga]

Hi OzBoy39
First off, I've really enjoyed your diary and appreciate the information provided! This information is extremely valuable to some of the us who will be doing this procedure or are considering it.

I found out about CLL back in 2014/2015 and have now decided it's now or never.  I've booked my surgery bi-lateral femurs using G-nails with Dr Giotikas in December 2022!!

I understand you stayed in Athens for 2 months, then went back home.  I'm considering staying in Athens for 6 weeks then going back home. I live alone and I'm very independent.  When you were at 6 weeks how was your mobility and ability to be self sufficient?  If you lived alone do you feel like you would be self sufficient at 6 weeks or would you need assistants?  I'm really curious about driving. Do you think you would be able to drive at 6 weeks?  I'm thinking I may need to drive to PT when I'm back home. Any circumstances you think may be a problem at 6 weeks?  If at 6 weeks you don't think you'd be self sufficient, at what point do you think you would be?  Sorry for all the questions  , I'm just trying to get an idea on how independent I will be at 6 weeks. I would really appreciate you input and response!     

If anyone else who has been through the process has any input, I'd appreciate that as well.

Hi Bro

The first two weeks - you will need some help in mobility even though Gnail is weight bearing
Your muscles are weak, and thus u need a walker to walk.
It is not advisable to go outside alone until you are able to move with crutches.
Athens Road and Buildings are not wheelchairs or handicapped friendly.

I stayed in Athens for 9weeks, completed 85% lengthening before flying home.
You can do physio yourself by using Yoga Band for stretching and station bicycle for strength.
It is exactly what you will be doing at Athens for 4 times per week.

I drive when home, it should not be a problem.
You may experience some muscle stiffness and numbness - so jus take it easy, do massage and rest or do less clicks.
Once you stop clicking, your legs will improve day by day.

FYI...I was walking independently within 3 weeks consolidation.
No duck ass or wide legs, my walking gait was good but slow.
Now, i can do brisk walking and jog.

Do take this forum as a reference and consult the doctor before decide what to do.
After all, it is jus an experience sharing and none of us here is the LL doctor.

Good luck !

[leonazul99]

You’ll be able to drive at 6 weeks. Gmail is similar to betzbone which I had done

[OzBoy39]

Hi OzBoy39
First off, I've really enjoyed your diary and appreciate the information provided! This information is extremely valuable to some of the us who will be doing this procedure or are considering it.

I found out about CLL back in 2014/2015 and have now decided it's now or never.  I've booked my surgery bi-lateral femurs using G-nails with Dr Giotikas in December 2022!!

I understand you stayed in Athens for 2 months, then went back home.  I'm considering staying in Athens for 6 weeks then going back home. I live alone and I'm very independent.  When you were at 6 weeks how was your mobility and ability to be self sufficient?  If you lived alone do you feel like you would be self sufficient at 6 weeks or would you need assistants?  I'm really curious about driving. Do you think you would be able to drive at 6 weeks?  I'm thinking I may need to drive to PT when I'm back home. Any circumstances you think may be a problem at 6 weeks?  If at 6 weeks you don't think you'd be self sufficient, at what point do you think you would be?  Sorry for all the questions  , I'm just trying to get an idea on how independent I will be at 6 weeks. I would really appreciate you input and response!     

If anyone else who has been through the process has any input, I'd appreciate that as well.

Hi Limbextender,
My reply is along the lines of the ones above.

Technically I believe you could be able to drive unless there's some strange complications. Im at exactly 60days post op today and drove home from airport. No problems (and I do have complications in my right leg,).

Re independence, you are indeed, but withal a very limited outlook of what you can and cant do. You can adjust your life to your limitations, but everything is kinda hard to do.

Nonetheless, if you have a "can do" approach, you'll be independent by then.

[OzBoy39]

Update at 60days post-op and 50mm distraction AND a question for some veterans (if any around)

Finally landed back home in Australia. So good to see my family again.
I'm sure they'll be of great help in the second half of lengthening.

Question re nerve pain/skin sensitivity and swell of lower leg
I slowed down to 10 clicks per day 2 weeks ago and I actually stopped for the last 48 hours. Still the same pain, uncomfortable feeling which started at around 3cm distraction. Anyone who's had similar symptoms that feels like sharing their experience (I guess I'm trying to sort of prepare myself for the next two months leveraging the past experiences of other fellow LLers)

My right leg is also considerably more swollen then the left.
And my right knee hurts when i put or remove weight on/from it.

Doctor at last appointment said that knee pain is due to muscle weakness so that I should walk more. And in regards to nerve pain and swell, he assessed the mobility, feelings and status of my foot, ankle, calf and shin and concluded that there's nothing concerning. I'm happy with that.but...
And he decided to slow me down to 10clicks.

Problem is that because of my right leg issues, I feel I'm damaging my training  / stretching and general life quality (intended as in life quality for us crippled LLers) that instead, my left leg would allow me to have.

My left leg feels like I could start training for a marathon and unfortunately what that does is that anytime I'm on my feet I tend to shift most of my weight on that leg which I'm sure is not the right thing to do.

Sometimes I consciously realign myself....but then that hurts my right knee. It feels like a losing battle sometimes. You do 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

So, that's my update/request for information for this time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the rest, my last few weeks were quite uneventful. Clicks continue to be super easy and i understand all 4 current patients here on G-nail don't have major issues either (thx God).

PT had become hard as in painful (always on my right leg only). I regain strength on my quad and I can manage to actually push some "speed" on the bike (like doing a 1km at 90watts... Which is nothing in normal circumstances but it feels strong right now). Hip and glutes strengthening excercises worked really well to help me with my hip pains and get me a bit more mobile when in a laying position.

I also came to realise that "personally" I would never ever do Precice and be wheelchair bound (or with the constant thought of bending the nail) for 3-4-5 months. But that's me and my "need" to move around and be independent.

My friends still in Greece who are on Precice ain't having a super good time with that and I wonder how much longer they'll need Walker and crutches during consolidation. Nope... not for me.

BUT, I must say that the majority of them are doing this solo. One guy especially is doing quadrilateral precice, all by himself in a Airbnb.
And we managed to hang out together quite a few times (him on a wheelchair) and myself behind with crutches pushing him around Athens.

Not safe, but good fun.

[leonazul99]

Post in error, mods delete.

[lessthanavg8300]

"And we managed to hang out together quite a few times (him on a wheelchair) and myself behind with crutches pushing him around Athens"

LOL This must have been a sight to see.  Thats great.

[SpeedDialer]

Ozboy was great to meet in Athens, one of the most chill and helpful patients to talk to in person

Hope things go well, hope you keep in touch on the forum and tell us how the journey goes after coming home

[OzBoy39]

Thank you for the kind words man.
I'll definitely stay on the forum at least until this ordeal ends.

Things are going ok here and I'm in the process of booking GP appointment, finding physio, restarting gym... Basically returning to life as much as I can.

[leonazul99]

Is anyone still in Athens? I'm arriving next week

[SpeedDialer]

Is anyone still in Athens? I'm arriving next week

I'll PM you, a bunch of us here

[LimbExtender]

SpeedDialer, Bagga, Leonazula99, and OzBoy39,

I really appreciate you all responding to my questions!  You all provided some great information and helped provide some insight on potential mobility and independence around 6 weeks post op!

Knowing what you know now, is there anything you would have done different or wish you had known prior?  Are there any "must haves" you would recommend while in Athens during lengthening?

SpeedDialer - I'll be in Athens sometime around December 11.

[OzBoy39]

A few points that I could have done better

-Do not bring any work with you. Leave any commitment at home.
-Get an esim greek card with plenty of data.
-Workout your upper body as much as you can.
-Don't stress about the surgery. That's the easiest part. Not painful, not stressful, you just gotta sleep.
-After the surgery and wehn back to the hotel, do NOT overdo it. Basically if you doing G-nail, you might be tempted to start walking on your own, or do very long stints with Walker or crutches. DON'T. Follow the doc's advice. I torn my quad because I'm an idiot and I'm still paying for that.
- Make friends when you arrive and stick together. You're gonna need somebody to vent with when this thing hits you in your head (and it will...).
-get yourself those medical ice pack that can be somewhat flexed or bent to shape

That's all I can think of at the moment. Best of luck and again, don't stress about "the day". It's gonna come and be gone in a heartbeat. Then the fun begins.

[LimbExtender]

A few points that I could have done better

-Do not bring any work with you. Leave any commitment at home.
-Get an esim greek card with plenty of data.
-Workout your upper body as much as you can.
-Don't stress about the surgery. That's the easiest part. Not painful, not stressful, you just gotta sleep.
-After the surgery and wehn back to the hotel, do NOT overdo it. Basically if you doing G-nail, you might be tempted to start walking on your own, or do very long stints with Walker or crutches. DON'T. Follow the doc's advice. I torn my quad because I'm an idiot and I'm still paying for that.
- Make friends when you arrive and stick together. You're gonna need somebody to vent with when this thing hits you in your head (and it will...).
-get yourself those medical ice pack that can be somewhat flexed or bent to shape

That's all I can think of at the moment. Best of luck and again, don't stress about "the day". It's gonna come and be gone in a heartbeat. Then the fun begins.

I really appreciate the response! Some great information and advice!!

It's ALL fun right !?!?  It's like a vacation ! 

[Mini0510]

A few points that I could have done better

-Do not bring any work with you. Leave any commitment at home.
-Get an esim greek card with plenty of data.
-Workout your upper body as much as you can.
-Don't stress about the surgery. That's the easiest part. Not painful, not stressful, you just gotta sleep.
-After the surgery and wehn back to the hotel, do NOT overdo it. Basically if you doing G-nail, you might be tempted to start walking on your own, or do very long stints with Walker or crutches. DON'T. Follow the doc's advice. I torn my quad because I'm an idiot and I'm still paying for that.
- Make friends when you arrive and stick together. You're gonna need somebody to vent with when this thing hits you in your head (and it will...).
-get yourself those medical ice pack that can be somewhat flexed or bent to shape

That's all I can think of at the moment. Best of luck and again, don't stress about "the day". It's gonna come and be gone in a heartbeat. Then the fun begins.

Do you feel that you should have done maybe a cm less in lengthening? What's your opinion on going beyond 8cm on the femur?

[OzBoy39]

I really appreciate the response! Some great information and advice!!

It's ALL fun right !?!?  It's like a vacation ! 

yeah man...trying to stay positive, but let me tell ya. the distraction phase is really really tough. Or at least for me that is.
that's why i believe that being comfortable as much as possible during this phase will maximise the chance of you not quitting.
I am at just 5.1cm today, kid you not I'm having strong mood swings because of the constant nerve painand sometimes the thought of calling it quit has gone through my head

[OzBoy39]

yeah man...trying to stay positive, but let me tell ya. the distraction phase is really really tough. Or at least for me that is.
that's why i believe that being comfortable as much as possible during this phase will maximise the chance of you not quitting.
I am at just 5.1cm today, kid you not I'm having strong mood swings because of the constant nerve painand sometimes the thought of calling it quit has gone through my head

well, i haven't reached 8cm yet, i'm barely past 5 right now.
my thought right now is that I'd be super stoked if I can even reach 8cm before giving up. I don't really know about complications going past 8cm. I know the likelihood grows exponentially past that.
if it was now.. i would stop at 8cm.

I'm back home and I'm re-starting all activities related to work, social, family. although it's great to be busy...it is absolutely exhausting.
I'll try to stay strong though and perhaps slow down the lengthening even further

[SpeedDialer]

-get yourself those medical ice pack that can be somewhat flexed or bent to shape

100%

[JamesBrown]

Hey guys,

How is Dr. Giotikas handling your painkiller/opiod usage?

I'm really afraid of getting addicted to them (since the last several years in Canada they have very serious warnings about using them so the medical professionals here basically never hand them out anymore).

I'm looking for your advice and experiences regarding this topic.


Thank you!

[OzBoy39]

Hey guys,

How is Dr. Giotikas handling your painkiller/opiod usage?

I'm really afraid of getting addicted to them (since the last several years in Canada they have very serious warnings about using them so the medical professionals here basically never hand them out anymore).

I'm looking for your advice and experiences regarding this topic.


Thank you!

Hey James,
Giotikas is on the same line l. As in he'll try to give you the least amount of painkillers necessary to keep your pain level at a touch less than kiserable. When o asked about it he mentioned these meds l, on top of addiction, they cause all sorts of problems to the liver, kidneys, and in general they aren't any good..

But at the end it comes down to you and to 2 factors

1- the painkillers (like in my case) may not work against the type of pain you are experiencing.

2- how much pain you experience. Trust me, when there's intense pain for a prolonged amount of time, you would wanna inject those pills in your stomach yourself if you could.

The last warning I feel I can comment on is... Once you're in, do not try olto cut them off cold turkey. I mistakenly did it once and ai kid you not, worst weirdest experience I had.... Depression in full swing.

[SpeedDialer]

Hey guys,

How is Dr. Giotikas handling your painkiller/opiod usage?

I'm really afraid of getting addicted to them (since the last several years in Canada they have very serious warnings about using them so the medical professionals here basically never hand them out anymore).

I'm looking for your advice and experiences regarding this topic.


Thank you!

Hey man, when are you coming to Athens?

[JamesBrown]

Hey James,
Giotikas is on the same line l. As in he'll try to give you the least amount of painkillers necessary to keep your pain level at a touch less than kiserable. When o asked about it he mentioned these meds l, on top of addiction, they cause all sorts of problems to the liver, kidneys, and in general they aren't any good..

But at the end it comes down to you and to 2 factors

1- the painkillers (like in my case) may not work against the type of pain you are experiencing.

2- how much pain you experience. Trust me, when there's intense pain for a prolonged amount of time, you would wanna inject those pills in your stomach yourself if you could.

The last warning I feel I can comment on is... Once you're in, do not try olto cut them off cold turkey. I mistakenly did it once and ai kid you not, worst weirdest experience I had.... Depression in full swing.

Thank you for this information, it is appreciated. I'm glad that Dr. Giotikas is taking the potential for addiction (as well as other health issues) very seriously.

Does he or his nurse assistants strictly monitor your usage? Or is it just like "this guy is in pain, give him more", etc.?

[JamesBrown]

Hey man, when are you coming to Athens?

I'm 22 years old and still in university (graduating Dec. 2022) so currently don't have the finances for the surgery.

When I do it in several years you guys will have already left Athens, sucks that I wasn't able to join your group, you guys seem very nice and chill.

[OzBoy39]

Well its more like, they're really stingy with handing you the meds.
Everytime I asked for more tramadol I used to get just like 3 or 4 days worth of.

So I guess that's how..., But now, other than asking about how many I'm taking, there's no special protocol to monitor your intake.

[OzBoy39]

I'm 22 years old and still in university (graduating Dec. 2022) so currently don't have the finances for the surgery.

When I do it in several years you guys will have already left Athens, sucks that I wasn't able to join your group, you guys seem very nice and chill.

No worries you'll find your group when the time comes. Just concentrate on making/saving as much money as possible. Work 2 jobs if you can. I can't even begin to think what it would be like if I had this done at 25. Go man, try your best.

[SpeedDialer]

SpeedDialer, Bagga, Leonazula99, and OzBoy39,

Knowing what you know now, is there anything you would have done different or wish you had known prior?  Are there any "must haves" you would recommend while in Athens during lengthening?

SpeedDialer - I'll be in Athens sometime around December 11.

If I were to do it again, I would bring:

- very large soft ice pads for legs (well I ended up ordering them from the German amazon which was expensive and took a while)

- regular slippers

- warm fuzzy slippers as well

- running shoes

- oversized fanny pack, like way oversized like the male nurse's waist fanny pack

- foldable grabber device

- optional and only helpful very very briefly: a very soft and comfortable vest, not too warm with large arm holes. Reason: avoids shirt arm sleeves, at one point I ended up with one IV needle in each hand and they asked me to put on a shirt when they wanted me to walk in the halls of the hotel

- for the vast majority of patients I think, post surgery pants (pants that have buttons can be torn off that way) are not as useful as I thought because you very very quickly get strong enough to put on regular pants normally

- if you're from the USA: probably good to get the schwab debit card (reimburse ATM fees, there is an ATM at the hospital, don't use the ripoff airport currency exchange) and/or transferwise or revolut debit card (good exchange rates). I don't use them, I use travel credit cards for rewards but the above might be good as a backup. The wealthfront cash management account might be good too for parking cash because it has high APY and doesn't need a phone number to login, only requires you to have authy or google authenticator on your phone/tablet if you set it up that way

- a light jacket might not be enough for december, might want to also bring a heavier jacket or at least use layers. When you go the hospital, the seats outside the doctor's office are very hard and some people lose alot of their glute mass, good to have something soft to sit on like a soft jacket or something

I know that HeightJourney on this forum recommends getting a toilet seat riser (you can buy it from the exercise bike people in Athens for like 45 euros ish, just message them on whatsapp). However, if you're in a handicap room then you can probably just easily transfer via the wheelchair without a toilet seat riser. If you do get the toilet seat riser, I know HeightJourney recommends a little stool for the feet (otherwise feet will hang in air and depending on your legs that can be uncomfortable or no problem)-> however, I have found that I can just use two rolls of toilet paper to rest my feet on when I feel uncomfortable from the legs dangling in the air after sitting on the toilet seat riser

Hey, see you in December! Are you going to be at Montaza hotel?

[SpeedDialer]

Reason: avoids shirt arm sleeves, at one point I ended up with one IV needle in each hand and they asked me to put on a shirt when they wanted me to walk in the halls of the hotel

typo I meant hospital

[OzBoy39]

Update at 79 days post surgery. 6.3cm distraction

A few practical notes for people from down under.

- x-rays are covered by Medicare
- my GP managed to get 5 sessions of physio bulk billed.
- usual meds (tramadol, Lyrica) are dirt cheap.

First thing to notice is that the.main daily focus isn't the lengthening anymore, but it's gone back to things like work, kids , chores. This is both good and bad. Time management is tricky because of how crippled I am (by that inkeam... Slow).

I drive normally and without any issue whatsoever and that is a massive plus.

I can walk kinda long distances with crutches (as in walking to and into the mall and back) and i do walk unaided occasionally in the house but without exaggerating.

My sleep is getting worse. For some reason I'm restless at night. I get 4 or 5 hours max of sleep and then I have to get up. I then also collapse super tired around lunch time.

My duckass is becoming annoying. It is not painful but I really make an effort to try and control it while I'm walking. Not easy.

My strongest desire is now to finish the lengthening process and start consolidating (basically I'm sick of the crutches, I'm sick of not being able to stand from a low sitting position and of all other movements I can't do).

This last 2 cm are going to be another mental battle. Not against pain , but just wanting to end it all.

Forgot to mention, my nerve pain on my.right leg....still there. Never goes away, but I guess I got numbed to it. We can just coexist together.

My biggest wins since coming back have been

Starting strengthening excercises
Starting hydrotherapy and sauna regularly.

Strengthening you can just feel...it makes you more and more mobile. It is hard because it makes your muscles painful af, but after that phase...you gain back some ROM.

Hydrotherapy and sauna are just "feel good" activities to me. I'll keep doing them until I finish lengthening I guess.

How does the new height feel?
Guess... F.....g great!  Not thinking about it anymore when I go out .
With friends and acquaintances, I've been super careful in wearing thin and flat shoes and also I tried to slouch as much as I could on my crutches.

Nobody of the close friends have made weird comments about it.

My wardrobe has officially been retired. Soon I'll have to spend some money and get meself some decent looking suits and clothing in general.

I can already tell that pants are gonna look great.

What else? Despite what many people say here on the forum, I believe the G-nail to be a far superior option than the precice. The weight bearing aspect of it makes the process so much more tolerable.

Every single precice patient in Athens at the time has agreed with that.
Athens... I so miss the weather, I miss the huge buffet breakfast i used to get at Novotel and in a way I miss the "focus" I had at the time towards this process. I  was way more  diligent with stretching and everything there than I am now. But I guess I'm close to the end and hopefully I can still stick.to it and avoid complications.

That's pretty much it. I better go stretching now.
See y'all past 7cm.

[SpeedDialer]

Update at 79 days post surgery. 6.3cm distraction

A few practical notes for people from down under.

- x-rays are covered by Medicare
- my GP managed to get 5 sessions of physio bulk billed.
- usual meds (tramadol, Lyrica) are dirt cheap.

That's awesome! So you explained to your GP you did LL in Greece and then he helped you get these subscriptions/therapy partially covered?

[OzBoy39]

Yes I did. And he's helping me squeeze as much as I can from what I'm allowed to.

He's been very curious about it. Not judgemental at all.

Same for the people who did my x-rays (all young guys and girls). They asked me so many questions (maybe they laughed at my back later, but who cares). One of them was actually genuinely interested. Shortish type of guy, I'm pretty sure he'll be on the forum soon.