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Author Topic: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014  (Read 6014 times)

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englad

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Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« on: June 04, 2014, 11:33:57 AM »

Hello all,


I've stumbled upon this forum through Google and it seems to be a nice forum to pose a few questions:

a) What is the approximate cost for an operation in continental Europe (i.e. non-Russian)?
b) Duration of recovery
c) Main complications
d) Limitations (e.g. is 7cm too much? Is 5cm safer etc.)
e) Method (what is the current 'optimal' recommended method)



Kind regards,

E
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gettingtaller

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2014, 11:53:53 AM »

all these questions are answered, you just need to do a shallow browse of this site, however....

a) cost about £50k all in
b) depends how much you lengthe, according to betz is (rule of thumb) 40 days per CM
c) depends on technique, tibias can give rise to compartment syndrome using internals. lowest risk proposition is internals on femurs.
d) this is not very well known and depends on the individual. i'm currnently recovering from doing 9cm in my femurs. others have struggled at 4cm and given up. depends on you and how much you're genetically prone to pain or if you're a wuss. the people that have gone to 10cm on one segment will tell you this is fine, the ones that struggled at 4 or 5cm will tell you that this is the safe limit. depends on your body and NOT how much prep you do. Some bodies are naturally better at being stretched, some bodies will quickly resort to debilitating  nerve pain - you won't know until you do it.
e) depends on what you can afford in terms of time, money and based on professional consultation.
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Did internal femurs with Prof. Betz in February 2014.
Goal 9cm, but ended up doing 10 (whoohoo). Now off crutches and walking funny, but getting better quickly.

englad

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2014, 12:12:03 PM »

all these questions are answered, you just need to do a shallow browse of this site, however....

a) cost about £50k all in
b) depends how much you lengthe, according to betz is (rule of thumb) 40 days per CM
c) depends on technique, tibias can give rise to compartment syndrome using internals. lowest risk proposition is internals on femurs.
d) this is not very well known and depends on the individual. i'm currnently recovering from doing 9cm in my femurs. others have struggled at 4cm and given up. depends on you and how much you're genetically prone to pain or if you're a wuss. the people that have gone to 10cm on one segment will tell you this is fine, the ones that struggled at 4 or 5cm will tell you that this is the safe limit. depends on your body and NOT how much prep you do. Some bodies are naturally better at being stretched, some bodies will quickly resort to debilitating  nerve pain - you won't know until you do it.
e) depends on what you can afford in terms of time, money and based on professional consultation.

Thanks for your reply. Wow that's pretty impressive... 9cm?! Hopefully you'll recover fast then, is your surgeon based in Europe?
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Wannabegiant

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2014, 02:04:29 PM »

While its true that some individuals handle longer lengthenings than others, its safe to say that anyone would recover better if they did 4 or 5 cm compared to 6 or 7(not comparing to other individuals), it might be a minimal difference or a big one, but lengthening less is always better for the body for obvious reasons.
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DREAM

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2014, 04:15:49 PM »

Don't be stupid go for 9 cm for one segment, its much safer go for 6-7.5cm.
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gettingtaller

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 04:58:27 PM »

Don't be stupid go for 9 cm for one segment, its much safer go for 6-7.5cm.

Based on your personal experience? What's the danger specifically?
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Did internal femurs with Prof. Betz in February 2014.
Goal 9cm, but ended up doing 10 (whoohoo). Now off crutches and walking funny, but getting better quickly.

GeTs

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 05:14:27 PM »

Based on your personal experience? What's the danger specifically?
one of them is:u change the mecanics and put even more pressure on your anckle joints
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gettingtaller

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 05:28:31 PM »

one of them is:u change the mecanics and put even more pressure on your anckle joints

You change your body even doing 3cm. What is the actual danger of putting more pressure on at 10cm?

The most experienced ll surgeons in the world have no problem with long lengthening. The only ones that are concerned are those  with little experience and those that don't have access to the nails that allow long lengths.

I've met ll patients that went to 10 and they report no issues. On the other hand one of my ll friends did much less than me and he's really struggling right now. There is no rule here, I think it depends on the individual.
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Did internal femurs with Prof. Betz in February 2014.
Goal 9cm, but ended up doing 10 (whoohoo). Now off crutches and walking funny, but getting better quickly.

GeTs

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 08:09:48 PM »

You change your body even doing 3cm. What is the actual danger of putting more pressure on at 10cm?

The most experienced ll surgeons in the world have no problem with long lengthening. The only ones that are concerned are those  with little experience and those that don't have access to the nails that allow long lengths.

I've met ll patients that went to 10 and they report no issues. On the other hand one of my ll friends did much less than me and he's really struggling right now. There is no rule here, I think it depends on the individual.
Paley says <5 low risk, 5-8 medium, 8+ high risk of problems If I'm not mistaken
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gettingtaller

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2014, 02:29:38 PM »

Thanks for your reply. Wow that's pretty impressive... 9cm?! Hopefully you'll recover fast then, is your surgeon based in Europe?

Yes, prof betz.
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Did internal femurs with Prof. Betz in February 2014.
Goal 9cm, but ended up doing 10 (whoohoo). Now off crutches and walking funny, but getting better quickly.

Hanna84

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2014, 09:45:42 PM »

Paley says <5 low risk, 5-8 medium, 8+ high risk of problems If I'm not mistaken

Yes, because his device can only lengthen up to 8cm.
When he used precice 1 his "safe limit" was 6,5cm... Strange....
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Starting height: 1,58m
Goal: 1,65m
OP: 31.10.2013

Finished lengthening: 28.02.2014 Achieved: 9cm :-)  New height: 1,67cm :-)

theuprising

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2014, 09:54:11 PM »

Based on your personal experience? What's the danger specifically?

Gettingtaller you seem to try and justify your over lengthening. You already asked about the dangers of over lengthening and got a doctors response. To the OP please read this thread
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=641.0

No doctors recommend doing 8,9,10cm lengthening's its very short patients that demand it and they have to take the higher long term risks that go with it.
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theuprising

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2014, 10:02:55 PM »

Yes, because his device can only lengthen up to 8cm.
When he used precice 1 his "safe limit" was 6,5cm... Strange....

His safe limit is still 6.5cm. Not strange.
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gettingtaller

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2014, 09:40:15 AM »

Gettingtaller you seem to try and justify your over lengthening. You already asked about the dangers of over lengthening and got a doctors response. To the OP please read this thread
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=641.0

No doctors recommend doing 8,9,10cm lengthening's its very short patients that demand it and they have to take the higher long term risks that go with it.

I appreciate the response uprising. I'm not trying to justify my length, or as you call it "overlengthening". I'm quite comfortable with it and I hope to recover as healthily as some of the other longer length patients that I have met pre and post op. What I'm trying to get to (selfishly for my benefit - if my legs are going to genuinely fall off in 10 years it would be good to know), is "what are these risks and dangers that everyone speaks of"? Nobody actually itemises what they are with any tangible evidence. I have the opinion of prof betz and I also spoke to my uk LL surgeon about it, but this forum is international so affords (in theory) the opportunity to get a wider perspective.

Yes, the South African doctor (sorry, I forget his name - franz?) did reply to my question about this, but did you see the reply? I did not want to appear rude so I did not follow up but his answer was superficial and without any information. I guess he's busy and wanted to reply quickly, but maybe he doesn't really know the answer? Maybe to cover his own ass (insurance, liabilities) he just recommends a very short length because  as long as he gets the business, as long as the patient is safe and the patient is happy, then the patients length doesn't really matter to him. I could be wrong about this, but it's a possibility. Guichet and betz on the other hand have decades of experience and know for a fact that longer lengths are quite practical (within the context of a procedure that is inherently risky irrespective of length).

There's a lot of hearsay and assumption around this topic, I'm simply very curious.
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Did internal femurs with Prof. Betz in February 2014.
Goal 9cm, but ended up doing 10 (whoohoo). Now off crutches and walking funny, but getting better quickly.

Europa

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2014, 12:16:18 AM »

Isn't it common physics? The more you will pull your nerves, blood vessels and muscles, the more you have chances to provoke permanent body damage in these extended regions - part or subpart. The body is only extensible to a certain point, which is different for everyone. By lengthening longer you're just trying your luck harder. If you need any other reason you're likely hoping for something that isn't there.
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Franz

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2014, 06:58:57 PM »

I appreciate the response uprising. I'm not trying to justify my length, or as you call it "overlengthening". I'm quite comfortable with it and I hope to recover as healthily as some of the other longer length patients that I have met pre and post op. What I'm trying to get to (selfishly for my benefit - if my legs are going to genuinely fall off in 10 years it would be good to know), is "what are these risks and dangers that everyone speaks of"? Nobody actually itemises what they are with any tangible evidence. I have the opinion of prof betz and I also spoke to my uk LL surgeon about it, but this forum is international so affords (in theory) the opportunity to get a wider perspective.

Yes, the South African doctor (sorry, I forget his name - franz?) did reply to my question about this, but did you see the reply? I did not want to appear rude so I did not follow up but his answer was superficial and without any information. I guess he's busy and wanted to reply quickly, but maybe he doesn't really know the answer? Maybe to cover his own ass (insurance, liabilities) he just recommends a very short length because  as long as he gets the business, as long as the patient is safe and the patient is happy, then the patients length doesn't really matter to him. I could be wrong about this, but it's a possibility. Guichet and betz on the other hand have decades of experience and know for a fact that longer lengths are quite practical (within the context of a procedure that is inherently risky irrespective of length).

There's a lot of hearsay and assumption around this topic, I'm simply very curious.

Of course you are entitled to your opinions. My primary goal is patient safety and this is why I make the statements about safe lengths. Yes it is technically possible to lengthen longer distances, but we need to be able to provide consistent and safe results, both short term and long term. If you read my thread, the risks like malalignment, contractures, instrumentation failures, delayed consolidation, arthritis are mentioned and explained. All of these risks rise almost exponentially for every cm beyond 5. I am glad you didn't have these complications, but for every patient that 'gets away' without complications at this length, there will be some with significant problems. With regards to your statement regarding medicolegal risk: I am sorry, but that does not play into my calculations. My philosophy is that sticking with sound principles and doing the best for the patient mitigates medicolegal risk. In other words, if I treat you properly and based on good principles, I can defend myself should the need arise.
I am sorry if you felt my previous response did not have substance. I felt that the question had been addressed in the thread already. I am indeed very busy, but if you feel my response is not complete enough at any point, either email or PM me, or post that in the thread and i will try to be more complete.
Lastly, please do not assume that i am offering this surgery purely for financial gain. My practice is busy enough. This is an additional service to my prospective patients. See my response re the ethics of CLL.
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GeTs

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Re: Considering European operation in Autumn/Winter 2014
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2014, 09:32:58 PM »

By going beyong 5cm do you mean any mm beyond that or like 6 cm +, because most doctors advice to lengthen a further 0.3mm more so that will be beyond 5 cm, at 5.3 cm
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