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[zaozari]

Paley never had a death , just giotikas and guichet with a 13 mm thick albizza nail .
Giotikas is no one in this field and had several misalignments while guichet was a famous doctor but turned out not to be a  good one .
I read that sarin was very popular in old forum , this does not make him automatically a good choiche ( making an example that "famous" does not equal good) .

Crippled people ,as I said, were all with BAD doctors in bad countries (as far as I know/its reported here) .
Complications and underperformance can be a thing but it's up to age /amount of lengthening and so on .
A healthy 20 to 30 yo person with <6cm femur and <5 cm tibia , will hardly have bad outcomes with a good doctor .
Things can happen because its life , but this was my point .
People still to this day go to betz ( who is 70yo +) and do 10cm ..is it that LL it's not safe or that they are stupid ?

By no mean go and do it for bo reason , but I believe that if u follow those steps , you will eventually trade some athletic ability but you will be x10 times happier which to me , it's worth the trade .
Basketball players will have later in life joints problems ,same with soccer players of NFL players who had brain problems etc.
There is always a trade off in this life ,but if you do it for the right reasons , that trade off might be very worth it .

Ok, you just can't get out of some dogmatic wishful thinking. It's a pitty because you won't learn or contribute much here if you stick too much to that.
Yes, there were crippled persons with top doctors, for example "Unicorn" with Dr. Guichet (altough some people prefer to blame her).
Yes there was at least a death with Dr. Paley (thrombosis).
And 99% of LLers I suppose don't use this forum to know more about.
It seems to me you're imprisoned in wishful thinking. It's simply not true unfortunately that those 20/30 old with 6 cm extension in both segments are almost always ok. And just to remind, I will probably do LL. It's true that we can minimise risks to a certain extent (eg an experienced and ethical doctor) and you are right that there are tradeoffs and some of us may be happier being taller albeit with lower performance, so we should be more realistic to be able to plan ideally our LL process and to be tottally prepared for the possible outcomes.

[Masteryourlife]

Ok, you just can't get out of some dogmatic wishful thinking. It's a pitty because you won't learn or contribute much here if you stick too much to that.
Yes, there were crippled persons with top doctors, for example "Unicorn" with Dr. Guichet (altough some people prefer to blame her).
Yes there was at least a death with Dr. Paley (thrombosis).
And 99% of LLers I suppose don't use this forum to know more about.
It seems to me you're imprisoned in wishful thinking. It's simply not true unfortunately that those 20/30 old with 6 cm extension in both segments are almost always ok. And just to remind, I will probably do LL. It's true that we can minimise risks to a certain extent (eg an experienced and ethical doctor) and you are right that there are tradeoffs and some of us may be happier being taller albeit with lower performance, so we should be more realistic to be able to plan ideally our LL process and to be tottally prepared for the possible outcomes.

The problem with you rigt now is that you are not even Reading my texts but just going on your own .
Paley had NO death reported ,what are you talking about?

I already talked about guichet n there have been MANY mistakes there ;AGAIN,guichet was a famous doctor not a good one , just like sarin .

There is no wishful thinking because I m years in ,and probably will never be ok with this surgery .
I will do it , but will never dive into it happy and glad I'm breaking my legs because I'm fearless .
You saying yes or no to my statments but yet have to see a bad outcome from a person that followed the steps I mentioned before ; if you can link a diary or something I would be intrested to read .

[zaozari]

Yes it's true I may have not a global view of your posts, I was some time away from the forum and only now was revieweing some of it and seeing your important contributions.
But you seem too radical sometimes when not minimising risks or not accepting some facts.
I keep insisting there was at least one death with Paley,  altough I cannot rerence it here right now. And on the other hand, Guichet, together with him, is one of the most experienced and better surgeons in the world. I know that none of them report any serious complications or deaths ever, but it isn't even logical after decades of practice and complex surgeries.
If I misunderstood something else, I'm sorry.

[zaozari]

The problem with you rigt now is that you are not even Reading my texts but just going on your own .
Paley had NO death reported ,what are you talking about?

I already talked about guichet n there have been MANY mistakes there ;AGAIN,guichet was a famous doctor not a good one , just like sarin .

There is no wishful thinking because I m years in ,and probably will never be ok with this surgery .
I will do it , but will never dive into it happy and glad I'm breaking my legs because I'm fearless .
You saying yes or no to my statments but yet have to see a bad outcome from a person that followed the steps I mentioned before ; if you can link a diary or something I would be intrested to read .

I am furthermore totally with you and your realism, your natural perspective of it and "fear" in period 3....

[Masteryourlife]

Yes it's true I may have not a global view of your posts, I was some time away from the forum and only now was revieweing some of it and seeing your important contributions.
But you seem too radical sometimes when not minimising risks or not accepting some facts.
I keep insisting there was at least one death with Paley,  altough I cannot rerence it here right now. And on the other hand, Guichet, together with him, is one of the most experienced and better surgeons in the world. I know that none of them report any serious complications or deaths ever, but it isn't even logical after decades of practice and complex surgeries.
If I misunderstood something else, I'm sorry.

I respect your opinion and I think we displayed each other position enough .

The only thing I would like to correct is that Paley has the biggest CLL center in the world and no death reported or patients/familiar who claimed such an outcome .
It is always full of CLL patients there so a death would never go unnoticed at such an institute !
U might be mistaking it with giotikas because I never ever heard of this .
I read a topic of a person complaining for Paley s service back in the 90s and kept trash talking him .
He might have made a bad decision and this is not a good thing ..but he is human and it wasn't a cosmetic case .
I invite you to rethink your position on Paley because it's never been a thing on those forums that Paley had a death
and it is written in his online page very clearly  and no one ever contradicted that .
This is also why we compare him to other doctors because he had tons of cases and no deaths/serious complications like crippled people etc while others with less loads and years they happened to have poor outcomes .
This underlines that bad luck can be a thing but it's a lot about surgical skills and proper follow ups .

[HateLAPELoveSTEM]

Yes it's true I may have not a global view of your posts, I was some time away from the forum and only now was revieweing some of it and seeing your important contributions.
But you seem too radical sometimes when not minimising risks or not accepting some facts.
I keep insisting there was at least one death with Paley,  altough I cannot rerence it here right now. And on the other hand, Guichet, together with him, is one of the most experienced and better surgeons in the world. I know that none of them report any serious complications or deaths ever, but it isn't even logical after decades of practice and complex surgeries.
If I misunderstood something else, I'm sorry.

Speaking of death if you can recall one guy that back then you had much hatreds of cuz he addressed thaat having Parkinson or Leukemia is better than being short then I'd tell you that guy is me and rn I am still stuck with this kind of thought and I think if there were 2 options death or living an under 5'5 life then I'd choose the former so death is not a problem for me at all.
Dunno since you can't prove yourself with a death case under Paley's hands why you are spouting Paley's caused at least 1 death case cuz Paley is just the surgeon what I am aiming for so I cannot let go of your unlogical statements sorry.

[HateLAPELoveSTEM]

I respect your opinion and I think we displayed each other position enough .

The only thing I would like to correct is that Paley has the biggest CLL center in the world and no death reported or patients/familiar who claimed such an outcome .
It is always full of CLL patients there so a death would never go unnoticed at such an institute !
U might be mistaking it with giotikas because I never ever heard of this .
I read a topic of a person complaining for Paley s service back in the 90s and kept trash talking him .
He might have made a bad decision and this is not a good thing ..but he is human and it wasn't a cosmetic case .
I invite you to rethink your position on Paley because it's never been a thing on those forums that Paley had a death
and it is written in his online page very clearly  and no one ever contradicted that .
This is also why we compare him to other doctors because he had tons of cases and no deaths/serious complications like crippled people etc while others with less loads and years they happened to have poor outcomes .
This underlines that bad luck can be a thing but it's a lot about surgical skills and proper follow ups .

No need to dispute over an unfalsifiable case if you 2 don't mind me to say like that but if it would be death then I would accept if it would be disability then I couldn' although I still think being disabled is better than being short. Just don't wanna become disabled with my money and that is the reason why I don't hesitate to do LL not like common ppl. But you got it right and surgery outcomes comprise lucks, caregiving, skills and etc., instead of just either one of them.
BTW I am fixated on Paley's Option 3 and I was glad to have seen there are some cases of Option 3 on this website so I see hopes in my life rn.

[Polvorón]

Most of tall people won't get this procedure done, so that problem will not exist.

Let people be free, if a tall person wants to be even taller, we should accept it.

[HateLAPELoveSTEM]

Most of tall people won't get this procedure done, so that problem will not exist.

Let people be free, if a tall person wants to be even taller, we should accept it.

I changed my thoughts and I confess my stupidities. I think it should be covered by medical insurance just for short patients and the shorter patients are the more the prices must be covered.

[sphenopetroclival]

I have to agree—not to mention tall people have even less motivation to undergo this kind of procedure.

perhaps some people enjoy living life as a spectacle. if this is indeed so, it may be natural to assume that if LL helped one achieve this distinction they'd view it as a rational decision.

[zaozari]

Speaking of death if you can recall one guy that back then you had much hatreds of cuz he addressed thaat having Parkinson or Leukemia is better than being short then I'd tell you that guy is me and rn I am still stuck with this kind of thought and I think if there were 2 options death or living an under 5'5 life then I'd choose the former so death is not a problem for me at all.
Dunno since you can't prove yourself with a death case under Paley's hands why you are spouting Paley's caused at least 1 death case cuz Paley is just the surgeon what I am aiming for so I cannot let go of your unlogical statements sorry.

Yes, I was shocked as I interpreted it as a general position towards every not tall people (as if all people shorther than X cm had worse lives than having dementias and so on).
But if it's your personal feeling of course I respect that and I'm sorry for your feelings.
Just let me say, though, that you seem to have fallen in an exaggerated situation of height neurosis. I don't think in general that psychotherapy can cure height neurosis but I would humbly suggest you tried to "balance" and get some support for better decisions having some counselling. I say that because of own experience, having height neurosis and because I find similarities in our feelings except reaching that point of comparison to Parkinson and cancer, so don't get offended, please.

Regarding at least one death with Paley  (I say this "at least" because a minimal number of LL ers come here and surgeons themselves don't admit it (like Guichet) on their web pages), I read it here in this forum from a patient that was hospitalised at the same time. That's why it's not general knowledge, the patient who died never reached the "recover center" in Palm Beach where everybody is.
But it was due to thrombosis, and that can be minimised but not avoided by any surgeon, so it's part of the risks, I was not blamming the surgeon.

[HateLAPELoveSTEM]

Yes, I was shocked as I interpreted it as a general position towards every not tall people (as if all people shorther than X cm had worse lives than having dementias and so on).
But if it's your personal feeling of course I respect that and I'm sorry for your feelings.
Just let me say, though, that you seem to have fallen in an exaggerated situation of height neurosis. I don't think in general that psychotherapy can cure height neurosis but I would humbly suggest you tried to "balance" and get some support for better decisions having some counselling. I say that because of own experience, having height neurosis and because I find similarities in our feelings except reaching that point of comparison to Parkinson and cancer, so don't get offended, please.

Regarding at least one death with Paley  (I say this "at least" because a minimal number of LL ers come here and surgeons themselves don't admit it (like Guichet) on their web pages), I read it here in this forum from a patient that was hospitalised at the same time. That's why it's not general knowledge, the patient who died never reached the "recover center" in Palm Beach where everybody is.
But it was due to thrombosis, and that can be minimised but not avoided by any surgeon, so it's part of the risks, I was not blamming the surgeon.

Alright thx for your sympathy from my bad feelings but for death, some extreme incels on this forum are plugging away with crazy statements like you don't deserve to live cuz you are short, height takes everything from us besides happiness, if I can't lengthen my tibias by 8cm I will kill myself and etc., so your revelation of Paley's death case doesn't make sense in their shoes cuz they would rather lose their lives than going on being short, let alone you yourself already think that was not Paley's fault.
But we can juxtapose CLL with plastic surgery, which also can lead to death accidentally, and even bad news about plastic surgeries are spread out on Internet at times, but patients are still managing to change theie faces through this surgery cuz they have been give lessons by the society about how important one's appearance is and that being said those who are really striving for getting taller also ignore bad news about CLL to do CLL to get taller.
So this world is mistreating ppl to this extent and we gotta have sympathy from those who wanna change their physical features running the risks caused by various surgeries.

[zaozari]

Alright thx for your sympathy from my bad feelings but for death, some extreme incels on this forum are plugging away with crazy statements like you don't deserve to live cuz you are short, height takes everything from us besides happiness, if I can't lengthen my tibias by 8cm I will kill myself and etc., so your revelation of Paley's death case doesn't make sense in their shoes cuz they would rather lose their lives than going on being short, let alone you yourself already think that was not Paley's fault.
But we can juxtapose CLL with plastic surgery, which also can lead to death accidentally, and even bad news about plastic surgeries are spread out on Internet at times, but patients are still managing to change theie faces through this surgery cuz they have been give lessons by the society about how important one's appearance is and that being said those who are really striving for getting taller also ignore bad news about CLL to do CLL to get taller.
So this world is mistreating ppl to this extent and we gotta have sympathy from those who wanna change their physical features running the risks caused by various surgeries.

Yes, that's the general picture.
But I think we and doctors must be attentive to different kinds of height or other body dysphorias. What I mean is that there are cases, for example one person in Brazil that did around 40 (its true!!!) plastic surgeries (nothing to do with CLL) with certainly non ethical doctors and she never stops, she never gets "satisfied". These are cases for psychiatrists and psychologists, not for plastic NOR  orthopaedic surgeons. That's why I respect but makes me think (like many doctors) why a man over, let's say 1,70 m tall  or specially around average like around 1,76 m, wants LL surgery. I always think he may have a kind of neurosis that nobody can be sure to disappear after LL. But this is me thinking, not judging.

[HateLAPELoveSTEM]

Yes, that's the general picture.
But I think we and doctors must be attentive to different kinds of dysphoria. What I mean is that there are cases, for example one person in Brazil that did around of 40 (its true!!!) plastic surgeries (nothing to do with CLL) with certainly non ethical doctors and she never stops, she never gets "satified". These are cases for psychiatrists and psychologists, not for plastic NOR  orthopaedic surgeons. That's why I respect but makes me think why a man over, let's say 1,70 m tall  or specially eround average like around 1,76 m wants LL surgery. I always think he may have a kind of neurosis that nobody can be sure to disappear after LL. But this is me thinking, not judging.

Agree on every word you say.
Surgeries that can change patients' physical features are very addictive and charming and if patients with dysphorias that can glue them onto this kind of surgeries forever then surgeries are way dangerous for them than for normal patients and I am really convinced that human is very difficult to be satisfied so that's another reason why I posted my methodology here to forbid average or even beyond average patients to achieve this surgery cuz the situations are essentially different for them from those patients who are really short and deserve this surgery.
Fortunately the benefits from height are capped and beyond a certain threshold, growing any taller cannot make sense like growing taller than 2m, unlike plastic surgery. The appearance has no threshold and of course the more beautiful/handsomer you are, the more benefits you can achieve from your apppearance, the main reason why patients are addicted to them, not to mention some unethnical web writers/surgeons are 'fearmongering' here and there and for sure we can figure out why some women are going mad about changing their appearances.