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[heelsunderhead]

People looking for LL in Greece have rights to know what can happens.  Ask the doctor giotikas how to prevent this from happening to you.  Knowledge is power. I don't say who is to blame but my dear friend had LL surgery in September in Greece and has been unconscious for many days since physical therapy and possible infarction. You hear the risks but you do not believe it will be you. Maybe just chance but may be needs a change in protocol. They will soon remove life support. He has GNail. He was strong person.  30 years. Everyone is too afraid to talk. Don't go alone.

[karin123]

a? what do you mean? is your friend fine now? anything irretrievable?

[two]

Did Dr Giotikas make any comments about the incident? Does everything continue as per usual? Are there any concerns about the Guichet nail? Does the ratcheting mechanism cause increase in swelling and chance of PE? I am a bit scared as I was making plans to get Guichet nail.

[tallmen]

a? what do you mean? is your friend fine now? anything irretrievable?

They are brain dead. It happened in the 6th week of lengthening and he was only given 2 weeks of Xeralto (blood thinner). So far I've seen maybe 4 deaths from LL and all of them were from DVT/PE.  One this, another that indian guy whose sister wrote the blog about it and another 2 were in India (1 African girl and 1 indian girl). Maybe there are more that are not public.

[taller2023]

People looking for LL in Greece have rights to know what can happens.  Ask the doctor giotikas how to prevent this from happening to you.  Knowledge is power. I don't say who is to blame but my dear friend had LL surgery in September in Greece and has been unconscious for many days since physical therapy and possible infarction. You hear the risks but you do not believe it will be you. Maybe just chance but may be needs a change in protocol. They will soon remove life support. He has GNail. He was strong person.  30 years. Everyone is too afraid to talk. Don't go alone.

Can you provide us proof?  I in contact with a few current patients in Athens, no one heard of this guy. Is this fake news? Look like this is you first post.

[limbcllnea]

Can you provide us proof? I in contact with a few current patients in Athens, no one heard of this guy.

All patients in Athens know this. If they don't know, they are not patients or they are really ignorant.

[thankscience]

Can somebody clarify what exactly happened to this patient? People seem to be implying the reason he had DVT/PE is due to not being prescribed Xarelto more than 2 weeks. Someone said he had it after a PT session and the taxi driver drove off which made matters worse...

Just curious because Giotikas is currently at the top of my list for future LL'ing and it would be helpful to know exactly what happened.

[limbcllnea]

Can somebody clarify what exactly happened to this patient?

How can other patients know "exactly" what happened? Of course, it's all anecdotes. It's not like every patient knows what exactly happened to everyone.

Email them and ask them yourself.

info@athensbjr.com   

[thankscience]

How can other patients know "exactly" what happened? Of course, it's all anecdotes. It's not like every patient knows what exactly happened to everyone.

Email them and ask them yourself.

info@athensbjr.com

Some people have implied they were close with the patient, so I assumed we'd have more information than hearsay.

[Arcon]

How can other patients know "exactly" what happened? Of course, it's all anecdotes. It's not like every patient knows what exactly happened to everyone.

Email them and ask them yourself.

info@athensbjr.com

Agree. I would ask them directly if i were to have my surgery there and needed responsible answers. You can't really expect to find anything but gossip here

[two]

Agree. I would ask them directly if i were to have my surgery there and needed responsible answers. You can't really expect to find anything but gossip here

It would not be right for them to disclose what happened to a patient. They can generally explain how they can save you from PE but not go into the details of any particular patient.

Remember, if not for some of the patients writing about it here, we would have never found out. It's not like their team would proactively write "Hi, your surgery is scheduled for next month so we are writing to you to inform you about a recent mishap for full transparency......."

[LLSouthAmerica]

The decision to prescribe blood thinners depends not only on the surgery but also on the patient's own risk factors. Taking blood thinners does not reduce the risk of DVP/ PTE to zero. Everyone should know that having LL surgery comes with a risk of death / permanent impairment.

[tallmen]

The decision to prescribe blood thinners depends not only on the surgery but also on the patient's own risk factors. Taking blood thinners does not reduce the risk of DVP/ PTE to zero. Everyone should know that having LL surgery comes with a risk of death / permanent impairment.

It reduces the chances by 99%. No patient died by blood clots where surgeons give blood thinners. Don't buy into this bs. Blood thinners are very important.

[LLSouthAmerica]

You don't know what you are talking about. I've seen plenty of patients die of blood clots even using blood thinners. Are you a doctor?

[Arcon]

@overandover and @LLSouthAmerica you are oth right. Blood thinners do reduce the risk of thrombosis significantly but it can still happen and patients have indeed died from PE whilst on blood thinner. i.e. the risk is reduced a lot but nover eliminated.

[two]

You don't know what you are talking about. I've seen plenty of patients die of blood clots even using blood thinners. Are you a doctor?

Plenty?  What are the odds according to you?

[tallmen]

You don't know what you are talking about. I've seen plenty of patients die of blood clots even using blood thinners. Are you a doctor?

Any source to claim your comment? any link? or is it just your imagination?

[LLSouthAmerica]

Any source to claim your comment? any link? or is it just your imagination?

Seriously? Just enter Pubmed and search any direct oral anticoagulant, warfarin or heparin. Every trial comparing these agents has patients who were treated and developed DVT and PTE. If the risk were zero and blood thinners were perfect, we would not have so many treatments for the same disease.

Plenty?  What are the odds according to you?

I don't make the odds haha. It is not a matter of opinion. You should search for a randomized double-blind trial comparing anticoagulant vs no anticoagulant in LL. To my knowledge, there isn't one. Probably because of the difficulty in having enough samples and different techniques by different doctors. You could look for femoral nailing and maybe extrapolate the overall risk for this surgery.

However, my point was that you have to know that everybody has a risk of having a DVT and PTE. This risk may increase if you are obese, a smoker. It also depends on the surgical technique and if you are weight bearing or not. Blood thinners may reduce this risk but there are pros and cons of using them. It is not for us to decide but for the specialists.

[two]

Seriously? Just enter Pubmed and search any direct oral anticoagulant, warfarin or heparin. Every trial comparing these agents has patients who were treated and developed DVT and PTE. If the risk were zero and blood thinners were perfect, we would not have so many treatments for the same disease.

I don't make the odds haha. It is not a matter of opinion. You should search for a randomized double-blind trial comparing anticoagulant vs no anticoagulant in LL. To my knowledge, there isn't one. Probably because of the difficulty in having enough samples and different techniques by different doctors. You could look for femoral nailing and maybe extrapolate the overall risk for this surgery.

However, my point was that you have to know that everybody has a risk of having a DVT and PTE. This risk may increase if you are obese, a smoker. It also depends on the surgical technique and if you are weight bearing or not. Blood thinners may reduce this risk but there are pros and cons of using them. It is not for us to decide but for the specialists.

It is hard for us laypeople to find such papers. Could you find some research when you have a moment (for fracture nailing) as you are a medical professional?
I really am not able to decide without knowing the chances of pulmonary embolism. If there is a 5% chance after taking blood thinners then I won't do this procedure. If there is a 1% chance after taking blood thinners then I might. Pulmonary embolism is horrible. You can be left with searious health problems even if you survive.
Thank you sir

[tallmen]

Seriously? Just enter Pubmed and search any direct oral anticoagulant, warfarin or heparin. Every trial comparing these agents has patients who were treated and developed DVT and PTE. If the risk were zero and blood thinners were perfect, we would not have so many treatments for the same disease.

I don't make the odds haha. It is not a matter of opinion. You should search for a randomized double-blind trial comparing anticoagulant vs no anticoagulant in LL. To my knowledge, there isn't one. Probably because of the difficulty in having enough samples and different techniques by different doctors. You could look for femoral nailing and maybe extrapolate the overall risk for this surgery.

However, my point was that you have to know that everybody has a risk of having a DVT and PTE. This risk may increase if you are obese, a smoker. It also depends on the surgical technique and if you are weight bearing or not. Blood thinners may reduce this risk but there are pros and cons of using them. It is not for us to decide but for the specialists.

1. source of claim that LL patients who received Blood thinner died not in general.
2. I never said it's 100% effective.

[Highest]

Any updates on this case?

[LU213]

The patient in Greece has passed.

[Masteryourlife]

Wow....this is seriously so bad ,poor guy..

I wonder if the doctor has a responsibility in this .
Paley has 0 deaths in his very very long career and we would know if that happened.
Same with Rozbruch etc.

Does weightbearing makes a difference ?

Anyway this is a really sad outcome and thanks to the person who opened this topic .

[LLSouthAmerica]

He has had multiple lawsuits though... in America it is common.

[Masteryourlife]

He has had multiple lawsuits though... in America it is common.

What is common ?

[LLSouthAmerica]

It is normal for any surgeon to have complications, even death... even if he performed a close to perfect surgery. In America, patients sue doctors a lot more frequently than in other countries when they have bad results.

[Masteryourlife]

Common to be sued ok..but In US I believe a death in a good surgeon record would really be mainstream .
Maybe I am wrong but if any of the top US cll surgeons had a death in the records by now we would certainly know .
Some things can't be (maybe) avoided , but I am sure there is a correlation between india/Greece--> deaths as it is with best surgeons --> 0 deaths reported in a long career .
Anyway idk...rn it's just sad about the guy ... hope we will have more infos

[Arcon]

He has had multiple lawsuits though... in America it is common.

A good surgeon doesn't have many lawsuits against him even in the US, period!
"Many lawsuits" is not something to be taken lightly because(regardless of whose fault it was) it definitely indicates unhappy patients/complications/negligence/ outcomes below expections etc... I mean, certainly something must have gone wrong for someone to sue his doctor...and if this has happened repeatedly, it certainly shows something, doesnt it?. Do we know what percentage of these lawsuits Paley eventually lost? or what were they related too? I don't belong to those who believe that Paley is the closest thing to God..quite the opposite from what I read here.

[Masteryourlife]

A good surgeon doesn't have many lawsuits against him even in the US, period!
"Many lawsuits" is not something to be taken lightly because(regardless of whose fault it was) it definitely indicates unhappy patients/complications/negligence/ outcomes below expections etc... I mean, certainly something must have gone wrong for someone to sue his doctor...and if this has happened repeatedly, it certainly shows something, doesnt it?. Do we know what percentage of these lawsuits Paley eventually lost? or what were they related too? I don't belong to those who believe that Paley is the closest thing to God..quite the opposite from what I read here.

I don't believe in anyone to be God as well .
As probably prespective patients ,we have to see what doctor has his own interests+ours by his heart.
Paley has made an era and we cannot deny that.
Maybe without him we would not be here talking about CLL as an actuall thing;who knows .
But that said , he is a phenomenal surgeon and a phenomenal entrepreneur, which gets in conflict with our porpuse !
He most likely haven't been performing the surgeries itself since several years but in the field he is the n1 ,due to his experience and skill .
I believe that his bad outcomes (I never heard in this forum of crippled CLL patients by him but correct me if I am wrong) are due to his 0 personal care for the patient and the patient greed itself .
If you stick to the safe zones probably 80% of the ones who had a bad outcome like pains/decreased abilities/not regained full ROM would be way better .
Then you can complain and sue , sure ..but within yourself you know why that happened ...this forum is here to help us /each other not only to share experiences and lucky who gets trough it safely . We are not a Russian roulette.

That's why I would suggest and avoid doctors like betz,guichet,giotikas and many others ; because they dgaf about your outcome .And they barely try to hold u on something but rather agree on your lengthening goal..no matter if its 8 tibia or 10 femurs .
And this is also way I "trust" Dr.Lee more !
I am not by any chance promoting him , he is just my first choiche for this ,and it is because 1) he is skilled like Rozbruch or Paley and 2) he warns you that 8 cm is possible but NOT recommended. He will not shoot you if u aim at 8 but AT LEAST he tells you that , then up to you .
Those nails are for LLD not for CLL therefore LLD patient will benefit from 8 cm but not a CLL .
I went of topic as usual ahahah but point is that according to me , those doctors ,like the one mentioned in this topic ,should ne avoided ..because he performs in a country where you can't do s*** if something goes wrong and they barely care if it does .
10 or 20 k less doesen't worth the risk to me .
So you can sue your doctor , but I doubt that in best hands like Paley and co . The fault is entirely of the surgeon... because if it was he would not be performing by now if he had "multiple" bad cases caused by his poor skill .

Idk but hearing someone died chasing their dreams it's just so sad. Please save up and go to doctors who lower the chances to the maximum possible !
And go to a 1st world country so in case something happens out of your control , at least you can be somehow backed up!

[thankscience]

Based on another post it seems the patient already had a rare underlying condition. I think there was already high risk, irrespective of the doctor.

[Humanoid]

Based on another post it seems the patient already had a rare underlying condition. I think there was already high risk, irrespective of the doctor.

I think it isn't wise to conclude the patien already had a rare underlying condition after s*** happened. A good surgeron with a good protocol should had performed comprehensive pre op tests so that the patient wouldn't qualify for the surgery.