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[ub40]

Can we get back to the original topic? Is there ways for doctors to mitigate this or has there been any new techniques?

[kieran19801980]

That's an interesting post. It would be great to hear from people who had internal femurs done and if they have any complications say from two years onwards. The operation is costly both financially and in time. Considering the "cheapest" for internals in Europe is 48,000 euros not including accommodation/physio/food which is possibly another 8000 euros if one decides to stay for the entire lengthening period. ( say three months for 7.5cm) As well the person is out of work which I'm guessing for five months before walking "normally", that is nearly three months for lengthening and two months for consolidation (on crutches). That's five months out of your life and work ( if your job entails walking a lot or doing community work). It's a big sacrifice.

[abo]

http://www.childrenshospital.org/centers-and-services/anterior-cruciate-ligament-program/bridge-enhanced-acl-repair-trial

What do you guys think about this?! if the problem with this operation will be the knee? is it possible to recover 100% from this operation?

[Antonio]

New study shows that increasing Tibia/Femur ratio beyond 0.8 is correlated with long-term arthritis.

Copy paste from link https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26398436:

The Association of Tibia Femur Ratio and Degenerative Disease of the Spine, Hips, and Knees.
Weinberg DS1, Liu RW.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

When individuals with asymmetric lower extremities present for evaluation of limb-length inequality, correction can occur at the tibia, femur, or in both bones; however, there are limited data available to justify either technique. The aim of this study is to examine the normal ratio of tibia length/femur length (T/F), and to explore the relationship between T/F ratio and osteoarthritis of the spine, hips, and knees.
METHODS:

Bone lengths of 1152 cadaveric femora and tibiae from the Hamann-Todd osteological collection were measured. Degenerative joint disease was graded in the hip, knee, and spine. Correlations between the ratio of T/F and osteoarthritis were evaluated with multiple regression analysis.
RESULTS:

The average ratio of T/F was 0.80±0.03. There was a strong correlation between age and arthritis at all sites, with standardized β ranging from 0.44 to 0.57 (P<0.0005 for all). There was a significant correlation between increasing T/F and hip arthritis (standardized β=0.08, P=0.006), and knee arthritis (standardized β=0.08, P=0.008).
DISCUSSION:

Increasing tibia length relative to femur length was found to be a significant predictor of ipsilateral hip and knee arthritis. Therefore, we recommend that when performing limb lengthening, surgical planning should lean toward recreating the normal ratio of 0.80. In circumstances where one bone is to be overlengthened relative to the other, bias should be toward overlengthening the femur. This same principle can be applied to limb-reduction surgery, where in certain circumstances, one may choose to preferentially shorten the tibia.
CLINICAL RELEVANCE:

This is the first study to report long-term consequences of lower extremity segment disproportion.

[OverrideYourGenetics]

I have:

-Altered sensation in my knees when kneeling or touching them, around the IM nail insertion sites and around the osteotomy sites
-Stiffness in my knees unless I exercise regularly
-Hypersensitivity in my knees when kneeling on a hard surface
-Worse balance than before
-A left ostoetomy scar that's thin and weak, that I have to protect from getting bumped or it'll break and bleed
-Altered mechanics in my legs which led to exertional compartment syndrome when walking, requiring fasciotomy

I hope my posts and diary here don't whitewash the issues I've dealt with and continue to deal with as an LLer.  I did it and got my 3 inches without getting crippled.  Those 3 inches changed my life, but sacrifices were made.  LL is a tradeoff and there are consequences I'll have to live with from now on.

3 inches in the tibias is a lot, and more than what most doctors would recommend. I know LL is costly, but if you're concerned about complications, split the increase in height across the tibias and femurs. That way you can get 2 + 2 inches with far less risk.

how do you suggest we end our own lives?

You can go all high-tech about it

No, seriously, get the money for a top doctor and you'll be fine.

Fat embolism, for example, isn’t a theoretical complication, but a very real risk which is usually silenced in the forum and however happens. And there are patients from the best surgeons in the world who die from it. I’ve been told this by a very reliable source from a medical point of view.

Where did that happen and why wasn't the surgeon sued for malpractice?

Can we do anything to avoid these risks? [...] It’s better not doing more than one segment at once and even avoiding CLL if possible.

Exactly. Paley advises against doing both segments at once. I'll be doing them three weeks apart.

tibia lenghtening seems to have a lot of correlation when it comes to knee problems. I was wondering if the same applies to femur lenghtening.

I've asked Dr. Paley about knee pain following insertion of nail in the tibias. His reply:

Very little if any knee pin in our patients with CLL after tibial lengthening. I think it has to do with the minimally invasive we we insert the rod and avoid damage or irritation to the patellar tendon.

So honestly If you want max gain of 8-10 and keep good recovery (we have no idea if we can get back to 100%; 90% seems close so far but who knows) then splitting the surgeries would be the most advantageous.

Exactly. That's my research too so far after spending weeks reading a ton of patient diaries. Keep your lengthening to 5-6 cm in the femur and 5 in the tibias, and pay attention to when physical therapy during the lengthening phase become suddenly more difficult - and stop there. The extra 1 or 2cm is NOT worth the pain and complications. Think 2 years to return to normal function instead of 6 months. Do you want that? In that year and a half you might as well earn the money to pay the difference between just femurs and femurs+tibias. This is the route I'm taking.

[backrandom]

Where did that happen and why wasn't the surgeon sued for malpractice?

I don't know what doctor MM talks about. All I can say is patients sign a medical consent form where it says that fat embolism is a possible side effect of this surgery. When you get this surgery you must assume that death is a possible, if highly unlikely, risk. Doctors can't be sued if you die from fat embolism since it's a well known, though highly unlikely, side effect of this surgery.

[7231]

reviving the thread since  I also want onions on pitfalls on lon/latn vs complete external. In pm many people  advised me against latn/lon, but going full external woyld mean 9 months out of job.

[Android]

reviving the thread since  I also want onions on pitfalls on lon/latn vs complete external. In pm many people  advised me against latn/lon, but going full external woyld mean 9 months out of job.

LATN was the method of choice by Dr. Rozbruch for many years and he was quite the evangelist, before the advent of Precice of course.

As a reminder Precice was cleared by the FDA in 2011, the improved 2.0 version in 2014, so LATN is relatively contemporary. Here's some research by Dr. Rozbruch, you can read the Abstract and Discussion sections for the pros and cons compared directly against classic Ilizarov.

[myloginacct]

LATN was the method of choice by Dr. Rozbruch for many years and he was quite the evangelist, before the advent of Precice of course.

As a reminder Precice was cleared by the FDA in 2011, the improved 2.0 version in 2014, so LATN is relatively contemporary. Here's some research by Dr. Rozbruch, you can read the Abstract and Discussion sections for the pros and cons compared directly against classic Ilizarov.

Thanks for the links.

[7231]

LATN was the method of choice by Dr. Rozbruch for many years and he was quite the evangelist, before the advent of Precice of course.

As a reminder Precice was cleared by the FDA in 2011, the improved 2.0 version in 2014, so LATN is relatively contemporary. Here's some research by Dr. Rozbruch, you can read the Abstract and Discussion sections for the pros and cons compared directly against classic Ilizarov.

Thanks man

[419]

The patellar tendon is split and pulled apart to make a path for the nail to go into the tibia.  Studies have shown 25% of patients who've had this done end up with permanent discomfort in their knees.

then why you did LON?

[AlphaX]

Good question ! If there is a risk of permanent pain or discomfort with LON/LATN why people still do that ?

[myloginacc]

Good question ! If there is a risk of permanent pain or discomfort with LON/LATN why people still do that ?

They don't want to spend a year with frames on their legs, but don't have money for internal femurs.

[Sanity]

I think if u keep the lengthening in moderation everything will be fine

[Hamiltonzac]

All you people think 5 cm guarantees you safety, lol. That is stupid. Take APO the god for example, lengthened 20 cm and now runs, plays sports and recovered completely to the extent that he can function like he did before. Then there are many people who did 5 cm and got fked up. Its about how dedicated you are and physical therapy along with the safe precautions. At the end of the day its also about luck. Lengthening is individual for everyone so stop posting this crap about how 5 cm is safer than 6 cm.

Taller in Kiev is another perfect example of someone who lengthened 11cm in his femur and Im sure hes doing better than most people here who haven't even underwent the surgery yet. If anyone cares to notice what Taller in Kiev and APO had in common was they were both motivated and had belief and of course didn't go to butchers. CLL is a different experience for everyone.

[wants2growtaller]

Yea and we are going to take some medical advice over some loser on here. You are not a doctor.

[raku]

All you people think 5 cm guarantees you safety, lol. That is stupid. Take APO the god for example, lengthened 20 cm and now runs, plays sports and recovered completely to the extent that he can function like he did before. Then there are many people who did 5 cm and got fked up. Its about how dedicated you are and physical therapy along with the safe precautions. At the end of the day its also about luck. Lengthening is individual for everyone so stop posting this crap about how 5 cm is safer than 6 cm.

Taller in Kiev is another perfect example of someone who lengthened 11cm in his femur and Im sure hes doing better than most people here who haven't even underwent the surgery yet. If anyone cares to notice what Taller in Kiev and APO had in common was they were both motivated and had belief and of course didn't go to butchers. CLL is a different experience for everyone.

Hey man you say Apo. Do you read the Dr. Betz Asian patients  lengthening from170to 179 in makemetaller forum? He said if stop 7cm everything would be better and you could see what he suffer after 2years for the surgery.

Do you read tall' dairy (Dr. Betz patients)? He would not advise anyone over 7.5cm in femur form his experience. The risk and time losing is over the gain.

Do you read many 8cm Precice femur patients in this forum? Most of them just do not satisfied with the result.

 7.5cm patients in South Africa and 7.5cm up Penguin said 7.5cm in femur is fxcking dangerous.

Do you read crazy+6 diary(external tibia and femur) Do you see his picture?

Do you read Jim, android, pope dairy? They are all Dr. Solomin's patients in Russia.
Why do you think they stop 9-10cm totally in femur and tibia or 6cm in femur?
They are close to your height. Do they want more cm? I think sure but they are smart to stop.
Do you think your are so special and different from others that you can handle 13 cm in femur and tibia with Lon?

[loud]

All you people think 5 cm guarantees you safety, lol

people say it's less risky, not guaranteed safatey (unfortunately)

[dreamingtobetaller]

Why does everyone on here hate Dr M? He was one of my considerations, and now after reading this forum I'm having second thoughts!

[MrJames]

All people says, max 5cm for tibia but doctors in Turkey says
No problem 7-8 cm for tibia.

I dont understand who is telling the truth.
Why would these doctors say that?

[dreamingtall]

 I am a 23 year old male planning my LL experience for the near future. I became aware of my neurosis and discovered this site at the age of 16.

No disrespect to anyone who has used methods that may seem outdated now, but the newer technology (stryde) appears to have a different set of risks than that of the old. I'm not saying people who have had surgery done in 2007 with LON shouldn't be forewarning new users and new prospective patients, however, I think when listing risks it is important to understand more modern technologies are continuing to develop that allow for a smoother experience - and possibly a different set of long term medical complications or drawbacks.

I am also of the mind that none of us would be on this website if we didn't think that the benefits outweigh the negatives. All we have is hope and educated decisions to make with respect to doctors and techniques. My goal is to go with Conway or Paley using stryde. I plan to use all supplements vitamins, pre-stretching, and I've even read some interesting topics on stem cells. Bottom Line is if you are warning others to not undergo this surgery while at the same time enjoying the aspects of your gained height - the message is always going to be distorted.

[sakmadik]

I am a 23 year old male planning my LL experience for the near future. I became aware of my neurosis and discovered this site at the age of 16.

No disrespect to anyone who has used methods that may seem outdated now, but the newer technology (stryde) appears to have a different set of risks than that of the old. I'm not saying people who have had surgery done in 2007 with LON shouldn't be forewarning new users and new prospective patients, however, I think when listing risks it is important to understand more modern technologies are continuing to develop that allow for a smoother experience - and possibly a different set of long term medical complications or drawbacks.

I am also of the mind that none of us would be on this website if we didn't think that the benefits outweigh the negatives. All we have is hope and educated decisions to make with respect to doctors and techniques. My goal is to go with Conway or Paley using stryde. I plan to use all supplements vitamins, pre-stretching, and I've even read some interesting topics on stem cells. Bottom Line is if you are warning others to not undergo this surgery while at the same time enjoying the aspects of your gained height - the message is always going to be distorted.

I completely agree with what you say. It's like putting candy in front of a child and telling him that if he eats it he can have cavities haha Anyone who is informed a little (I for example a few months alone) knows perfectly the risks it has and what complications it can have from the non-union of the bones to thrombosis or permanent damage.

[LLSouthAmerica]

I think what we all should keep in mind is that we are sacrificing athletism, money, potential permanent risks, and time in order to gain height. The only one who can decide if it is worth it is yourself!

However, regardless of the method, so long as you are breaking bones. It WILL hurt. If you don't have support, it WILL be very dificult. Everything depends on your mental fortitude and being aware that you could lose everything in any moment.

[donnyrick]

What you are saying is quite terrible but sadly most LL patients probabely feel this way. To be at a place in your life where you are willing to do this means you probabely have height neurosis and are suicidal. However I am very blackpilled on life and believe genetics is destiny and height is tied to success.

[ghkid2019]

The one's that actually go through it in the states at least are in my opinion, much more reasonable than just thinking "height is everything" They just have a neurosis and insecurity and complex that lowers their quality of life, but the ones that are suicidal in my opinion are not the ones who actually can afford LL, at least not in the USA. These are too busy in their head. The ones who simply have a big neurosis but otherwise are competent in life (and successful sometime) are the ones who can afford to throw 100 grand at a surgeon. I'm sure they have had a deep depression sometime in their life though regarding height, im sure all of us on this forum has had. However The ones in their basement continually weeping sadly and believe they are unemployed due to height, are a NEET solely because of their stature, unfortunately have a very miscontrued mentality, are probably never going to even have the money for LL. I feel for everyone though, neurosis can be very serious or minor and there was certainly moments where I have thought height means the entire world and I'm sure I'll feel that way too in the future.

it comes to the point where people are just tired of living their life with neurosis- not necessarily suicidal. but definitely something close to a depression which is really not that much better. some people do have minor neurosis and get this also.

a few months or a year of suffering and pain is worth it to cure a neurosis. anyone who thinks LL has no negatives is in their head and confused. the ones who do LL realize that it does have negatives, but it is worth it. the journey of LL is a hard one not just physically but mentally and more than enough diaries i have read where the person was isolated in a foreign country and depressed during lengthening. It is tough. It is sad. But I commend everyone who has to courage to go through this if they think they need this to just kill that neurosis and sound in their head. i respect all of you guys. i dont respect the people who think certain peoples don't have a valid neurosis simply because of their height though. I would be confused at a 5'5 women getting LL, but I will not judge. Because I know they also have suffered similar, just by virtue of being on this limblengtheningforum site you have suffered enough and want to change

i love all of u guises and take it easy on urself. you will come out of this one day. and be neurosis free if you tunnel vision into getting a balanced life with good savings and enough money.

[Vibes]

The one's that actually go through it in the states at least are in my opinion, much more reasonable than just thinking "height is everything" They just have a neurosis and insecurity and complex that lowers their quality of life, but the ones that are suicidal in my opinion are not the ones who actually can afford LL, at least not in the USA. These are too busy in their head. The ones who simply have a big neurosis but otherwise are competent in life (and successful sometime) are the ones who can afford to throw 100 grand at a surgeon. I'm sure they have had a deep depression sometime in their life though regarding height, im sure all of us on this forum has had. However The ones in their basement continually weeping sadly and believe they are unemployed due to height, are a NEET solely because of their stature, unfortunately have a very miscontrued mentality, are probably never going to even have the money for LL. I feel for everyone though, neurosis can be very serious or minor and there was certainly moments where I have thought height means the entire world and I'm sure I'll feel that way too in the future.

it comes to the point where people are just tired of living their life with neurosis- not necessarily suicidal. but definitely something close to a depression which is really not that much better. some people do have minor neurosis and get this also.

a few months or a year of suffering and pain is worth it to cure a neurosis. anyone who thinks LL has no negatives is in their head and confused. the ones who do LL realize that it does have negatives, but it is worth it. the journey of LL is a hard one not just physically but mentally and more than enough diaries i have read where the person was isolated in a foreign country and depressed during lengthening. It is tough. It is sad. But I commend everyone who has to courage to go through this if they think they need this to just kill that neurosis and sound in their head. i respect all of you guys. i dont respect the people who think certain peoples don't have a valid neurosis simply because of their height though. I would be confused at a 5'5 women getting LL, but I will not judge. Because I know they also have suffered similar, just by virtue of being on this limblengtheningforum site you have suffered enough and want to change

i love all of u guises and take it easy on urself. you will come out of this one day. and be neurosis free if you tunnel vision into getting a balanced life with good savings and enough money.

Right on the money and spot on with everyone I've talked to at Paley who actually went through with it.

For many (including myself) it just comes down to wanting to improve this one nagging area in an otherwise amazing, fulfilling life.

[HateLAPELoveSTEM]

Is it a piece of true news that one Korean patient died of improper LL skills?

I heard for once from domestic news that a Korean youngster set out for LL and died of surgeon's fatal

manipulations(also he is not sure to be Dr.Lee).

[Shatter. Gee. 11]

This is scary af.

[Waiting4stryde2.0]

All people says, max 5cm for tibia but doctors in Turkey says
No problem 7-8 cm for tibia.

I dont understand who is telling the truth.
Why would these doctors say that?

Everyone thinks they're telling the truth....it's very, very subjective on how much you can lengthen safely. I'd normally say listen to what Paley says on lengthening amounts since he has the most experience, but the what determines how much you can lengthen depends on how well distraction goes (some factors: dedication to pt, no infections, surgery went well, mental well being to get through pt and isolation, fixation device used, and more).

For example, someone I knew personally did combined tibia and femur 3 weeks apart and gained over 12cm total when Paley only suggests 10cm total for this surgery option. This person was stretching 5-8 hrs a day like it was their full time job and because so, the dr's let them lengthen more than normal since their ROM and other vitals checked out.

Dr's in india aren't as wise and may let tight patients lengthen more than they should....which in turn, creates more risks.

[alwayslucky]

I am really afraid of these complications, even if they have only a small chance. ButI noticed that everyone said that Dr. Paley was the safest doctor, and that 5cm of femur seemed to be a safe extension. so if I go to Dr. Paley for this operation and only do 4-5cm of femur, can this guarantee that I will be safe and sound?

[Waiting4stryde2.0]

I am really afraid of these complications, even if they have only a small chance. ButI noticed that everyone said that Dr. Paley was the safest doctor, and that 5cm of femur seemed to be a safe extension. so if I go to Dr. Paley for this operation and only do 4-5cm of femur, can this guarantee that I will be safe and sound?

Sorry for the delay, but unfortunately not. Nothing is guaranteed, not even with femurs which IS A SAFER OPTION. Look at programdudes diary, he went to paley, had it removed by dr R, and his leg still snapped 4 months after rod removal.

Yet, you will increase your chances of a successful surgery and recovery by going with better doctors. Much of it after a successful surgery is your determination to stretch and trust in the process while in more pain than you've ever been in before.

You have 2 options. Do it and take what lottery ticket you get, or don't and try to come to terms with your height. Not trying to be harsh, js...it surely is a difficult decision.