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[Muse]

What Tall says is true. The very first thing I came to terms with was accepting/expecting this to be the most painful experience ever. If it isn't, then great, but you should be expecting it to be bad. Remember there are some who pay for the operation and quiet after a CM due to pain.

You are destroying your body and building it anew. Safety should be a concern, but pain, while a factor, will not be avoided.

Some people think that's it's just a pain thing and then that's it, increased height.  But unfortunately, it is not.

I communicated with too many people who learned so the hard way.   This is a combination of feedback I received from a few people who has already done limb lengthening via both internal and external methods:

"Pain during this procedure should be the least of ones concerns....it's the lingering after effects of doing limb lengthening that people should be concerned about.

Whether that be

- nerve damage (numbness, altered sensation, painful supersensitivity (from neuromas formations),
- paralysis, or reduced motor function or response times, especially in high level sports);
- pain and stiffness from internal trauma and scarring;
- bio mechanical load changes and it's added load stresses on joints (back, hip, knees, and ankles) leading to pain and possible early Arthritis
- reduced Athletic response time and abilities;
- permanent muscle / adipose tissue damage / atrophy; mobility issues; reduced agility;
- osteoporosis and increased chances of osteochonral lesions;
- lingering aches and pains months or years, or even a lifetime after the lengthening is complete and you say Good Bye to your CLL doctor.etc."

One may or may not notice or realize it at the beginning, but long term, it's a different story.

This is not simply working out and building anew like some people put it....if it was, then there would be a whole lot less lasting complications since people would recover completely from it...

But unfortunately, Limb lengthening surgery is not like working out like how some people think it is...it's not just going through some pain and then rebuilding back stronger.

Instead, this is more like how a healthy athlete/person who gets in a serious injury, such as in a sporting accident or car accident, and has to undergoes traumatic surgery which cuts open, damages, scars (internally and externally) and alters the natural body...sure they may recover to a point...but they will never be like their PRE-surgical / PRE-injured self.

If physical pain during the lengthening procedure, as well as the cost and time; were the only things one has to deal with when undergoing Limb Lengthening, then this would be heaven....but unfortunately, it is not.

Countless patients in the past, who lengthened various amounts with various Doctors (From the some of the best, to some of the worst) and various techniques (internal, external, or both) have found out.

This is the reality, and even though people may not want to hear, I feel it's something people need to know beforehand because it's critically important for their lives, before making this life-altering decision.

Of course, if the mental anguish of height neurosis is so bad, and if you feel that you will miss out more in life due to height prejudice / height neurosis even though you would be at peak physical healthiness / abilities, then maybe it's worth sacrificing some (or a lot) of physical freedom / health to open one's life up to the increased benefits from the increased height.

Height increase does have its benefits, but there will always be a cost, and it's not just temporary Lengthening pain, money, or time...a lot of times, it's more.

But then again, physical abilities go down overtime anyway, but the life you have with the increased in height, well that may be worth it...in the end, one must decide which possible path is the best for them to live the fullest life possible with the least amount of restrictions ...if it has to be with the height then maybe height increase is worth it.

But if the height is not really something that's worth permanently damaging yourself or losing a portion of your athletic / everyday freedom, as well as being symptom-free from ongoing aches, pains, nerve damages, and increased risk of other physical consequences in the future, then maybe one should work on their mental state and other physical attributes like working out, rather then their height."

[BilateralDamage]

Dameon, that was a fantastic post.  You should sticky that somewhere on the forums.  Too many users here are unaware that there's permanent side effects to LL and that this is something that's unavoidable.  When I read that people want to run faster with longer legs or start a professional sports career, I just shake my head.  You cannot stretch and build muscle through these problems, they will definitely affect you regardless of your PT.  Your body is not at a naturally increased height, you are the product of artificial lengthening.  Saying you can run faster after LL is like saying muscle implants in your arms will make you lift more weights. 

[Moubgf]

Some people think that's it's just a pain thing and then that's it, increased height.  But unfortunately, it is not.

I communicated with too many people who learned so the hard way.   This is a combination of feedback I received from a few people who has already done limb lengthening via both internal and external methods:

"Pain during this procedure should be the least of ones concerns....it's the lingering after effects of doing limb lengthening that people should be concerned about.

Whether that be

- nerve damage (numbness, altered sensation, painful supersensitivity (from neuromas formations),
- paralysis, or reduced motor function or response times, especially in high level sports);
- pain and stiffness from internal trauma and scarring;
- bio mechanical load changes and it's added load stresses on joints (back, hip, knees, and ankles) leading to pain and possible early Arthritis
- reduced Athletic response time and abilities;
- permanent muscle / adipose tissue damage / atrophy; mobility issues; reduced agility;
- osteoporosis and increased chances of osteochonral lesions;
- lingering aches and pains months or years, or even a lifetime after the lengthening is complete and you say Good Bye to your CLL doctor.etc."

One may or may not notice or realize it at the beginning, but long term, it's a different story.

This is not simply working out and building anew like some people put it....if it was, then there would be a whole lot less lasting complications since people would recover completely from it...

But unfortunately, Limb lengthening surgery is not like working out like how some people think it is...it's not just going through some pain and then rebuilding back stronger.

Instead, this is more like how a healthy athlete/person who gets in a serious injury, such as in a sporting accident or car accident, and has to undergoes traumatic surgery which cuts open, damages, scars (internally and externally) and alters the natural body...sure they may recover to a point...but they will never be like their PRE-surgical / PRE-injured self.

If physical pain during the lengthening procedure, as well as the cost and time; were the only things one has to deal with when undergoing Limb Lengthening, then this would be heaven....but unfortunately, it is not.

Countless patients in the past, who lengthened various amounts with various Doctors (From the some of the best, to some of the worst) and various techniques (internal, external, or both) have found out.

This is the reality, and even though people may not want to hear, I feel it's something people need to know beforehand because it's critically important for their lives, before making this life-altering decision.

Of course, if the mental anguish of height neurosis is so bad, and if you feel that you will miss out more in life due to height prejudice / height neurosis even though you would be at peak physical healthiness / abilities, then maybe it's worth sacrificing some (or a lot) of physical freedom / health to open one's life up to the increased benefits from the increased height.

Height increase does have its benefits, but there will always be a cost, and it's not just temporary Lengthening pain, money, or time...a lot of times, it's more.

But then again, physical abilities go down overtime anyway, but the life you have with the increased in height, well that may be worth it...in the end, one must decide which possible path is the best for them to live the fullest life possible with the least amount of restrictions ...if it has to be with the height then maybe height increase is worth it.

But if the height is not really something that's worth permanently damaging yourself or losing a portion of your athletic / everyday freedom, as well as being symptom-free from ongoing aches, pains, nerve damages, and increased risk of other physical consequences in the future, then maybe one should work on their mental state and other physical attributes like working out, rather then their height."

meh...as long as i can run i be straight. Of all the videos i've seen of people they all are running at 80% speed hell i cant even do that now. So the pain and all that bullcrap is overrated. If everything goes as it should. e.g no pin infection no traumatic experience while lengthening all these things.


IF EVERYTHING GOES As IT SHOULD DURING LENGTHENING YOU ARE STRAIGHT. AND CAN MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE.

[Gichelu]

Dameon, that was a fantastic post.  You should sticky that somewhere on the forums.  Too many users here are unaware that there's permanent side effects to LL and that this is something that's unavoidable.  When I read that people want to run faster with longer legs or start a professional sports career, I just shake my head.  You cannot stretch and build muscle through these problems, they will definitely affect you regardless of your PT.  Your body is not at a naturally increased height, you are the product of artificial lengthening.  Saying you can run faster after LL is like saying muscle implants in your arms will make you lift more weights. 

That sounds like the theory of admin of the old forum.

"There has been an ongoing debate about how much athletic ability an LL patient can expect to have after they have fully healed from their lengthening. People like to discuss recovery in percentages. The only way to prove recovery based on a percentage would be to do athletic tests on a patient in elite physical shape before their LL, and then do those same tests on them after they have healed from their lengthening. This has so far never been done in a scientific study.

I would like to posit a theory. An elite athlete can actually become faster after LL than they were before. Here is my reasoning. The average male femur bone is 48 CM long and the average male tibia is 36 CM long. Lengthening the average femur 8 CM would be a 16% increase of that bone, and lengthening the average tibia 7 CM would be a 19% increase in length of that bone. The total increase of 15 CM on both sections would be an 18% increase in total bone length of both sections and thus increase the running stride of that average male by almost 17% (taking into consideration loss from other body parts involved in the stride, namely the feet). Even if that elite level athlete lost 5% or 10% of their maximum muscle strength and capacity because of damage to the tissues from being stretched, that loss would be eclipsed by the increased length of the running stride.

A non-athlete that does LL will most likely not train themselves back to a point of recovery that is beyond where they were physically before LL, or they probably would have been an athlete before LL. But an elite athlete that knows how to train their body to its maximum potential should be able to do LL, train themselves back to a near full recovery, and still make themselves faster than they were before LL because of their increased stride length."

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/11/speed-stride-length-x-stride-frequency.html

meh...as long as i can run i be straight. Of all the videos i've seen of people they all are running at 80% speed hell i cant even do that now. So the pain and all that bullcrap is overrated. If everything goes as it should. e.g no pin infection no traumatic experience while lengthening all these things.


IF EVERYTHING GOES As IT SHOULD DURING LENGTHENING YOU ARE STRAIGHT. AND CAN MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE.

Why are you not even running 80% of what you could normally do? Injury or something? Because after lengthening you might get a reduction in speed from your already reduced speed.

[programdude]

I dont think if you go with a top doctor and follow their protocol, you will have serious issues. Of course there are isolated incidents and you WONT be quite as athletic as previously but you should be able to run, work out, walk. If sports were an important part of my life I don't think I'd consider LL. However unless you consider working out a sport, it isn't.

Also if you are REALLY short, even if you were to have some of the unfortunate side effects like knee pain for the rest of your life, it might be worth it. I know that my height has been somewhat mentally damaging to me at 5 8- I can't imagine the struggle of someone less than that unless they were somehow already set for life.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

Great post by Dameon here.  I have:

-Altered sensation in my knees when kneeling or touching them, around the IM nail insertion sites and around the osteotomy sites
-Stiffness in my knees unless I exercise regularly
-Hypersensitivity in my knees when kneeling on a hard surface
-Worse balance than before
-A left ostoetomy scar that's thin and weak, that I have to protect from getting bumped or it'll break and bleed
-Altered mechanics in my legs which led to exertional compartment syndrome when walking, requiring fasciotomy

I hope my posts and diary here don't whitewash the issues I've dealt with and continue to deal with as an LLer.  I did it and got my 3 inches without getting crippled.  Those 3 inches changed my life, but sacrifices were made.  LL is a tradeoff and there are consequences I'll have to live with from now on.

[Blackhawk]

Hey MDOW,

Can you tell us more about this?

-Altered mechanics in my legs which led to exertional compartment syndrome when walking, requiring fasciotomy

[Medium Drink Of Water]

I haven't gotten to this point in my diary, so here's a brief summary...

LL changed the way I walk.  Because of this, the tibialis anterior muscle had to work harder than it was able to.  I couldn't walk very far without getting tired because walking became a serious workout for that specific muscle.  Pressure would build up because there was too much blood flowing into it.

The solution?  Cut a hole in the outer cover of the muscle so blood can flow out when the pressure gets too high.  The surgery was successful, so it ended up not being a serious complication of my LL in the long run.

What caused the problem?  I don't know for sure.  It could be that I lengthened too much, or it could be because they straightened my feet by rotating the entire leg below the osteotomy.  Possibly a combination of both.

[Franz]

Some people think that's it's just a pain thing and then that's it, increased height.  But unfortunately, it is not.

I communicated with too many people who learned so the hard way.   This is a combination of feedback I received from a few people who has already done limb lengthening via both internal and external methods:

"Pain during this procedure should be the least of ones concerns....it's the lingering after effects of doing limb lengthening that people should be concerned about.

Whether that be

- nerve damage (numbness, altered sensation, painful supersensitivity (from neuromas formations),
- paralysis, or reduced motor function or response times, especially in high level sports);
- pain and stiffness from internal trauma and scarring;
- bio mechanical load changes and it's added load stresses on joints (back, hip, knees, and ankles) leading to pain and possible early Arthritis
- reduced Athletic response time and abilities;
- permanent muscle / adipose tissue damage / atrophy; mobility issues; reduced agility;
- osteoporosis and increased chances of osteochonral lesions;
- lingering aches and pains months or years, or even a lifetime after the lengthening is complete and you say Good Bye to your CLL doctor.etc."

One may or may not notice or realize it at the beginning, but long term, it's a different story.

This is not simply working out and building anew like some people put it....if it was, then there would be a whole lot less lasting complications since people would recover completely from it...

But unfortunately, Limb lengthening surgery is not like working out like how some people think it is...it's not just going through some pain and then rebuilding back stronger.

Instead, this is more like how a healthy athlete/person who gets in a serious injury, such as in a sporting accident or car accident, and has to undergoes traumatic surgery which cuts open, damages, scars (internally and externally) and alters the natural body...sure they may recover to a point...but they will never be like their PRE-surgical / PRE-injured self.

If physical pain during the lengthening procedure, as well as the cost and time; were the only things one has to deal with when undergoing Limb Lengthening, then this would be heaven....but unfortunately, it is not.

Countless patients in the past, who lengthened various amounts with various Doctors (From the some of the best, to some of the worst) and various techniques (internal, external, or both) have found out.

This is the reality, and even though people may not want to hear, I feel it's something people need to know beforehand because it's critically important for their lives, before making this life-altering decision.

Of course, if the mental anguish of height neurosis is so bad, and if you feel that you will miss out more in life due to height prejudice / height neurosis even though you would be at peak physical healthiness / abilities, then maybe it's worth sacrificing some (or a lot) of physical freedom / health to open one's life up to the increased benefits from the increased height.

Height increase does have its benefits, but there will always be a cost, and it's not just temporary Lengthening pain, money, or time...a lot of times, it's more.

But then again, physical abilities go down overtime anyway, but the life you have with the increased in height, well that may be worth it...in the end, one must decide which possible path is the best for them to live the fullest life possible with the least amount of restrictions ...if it has to be with the height then maybe height increase is worth it.

But if the height is not really something that's worth permanently damaging yourself or losing a portion of your athletic / everyday freedom, as well as being symptom-free from ongoing aches, pains, nerve damages, and increased risk of other physical consequences in the future, then maybe one should work on their mental state and other physical attributes like working out, rather then their height."

Great post. This is the type of reality check needed. If you are so unhappy with your height that you are prepared to take the risks described, only then should you consider CLL.

[KiloKAHN]

Dameon, that was a fantastic post.  You should sticky that somewhere on the forums.  Too many users here are unaware that there's permanent side effects to LL and that this is something that's unavoidable.  When I read that people want to run faster with longer legs or start a professional sports career, I just shake my head.  You cannot stretch and build muscle through these problems, they will definitely affect you regardless of your PT.  Your body is not at a naturally increased height, you are the product of artificial lengthening.  Saying you can run faster after LL is like saying muscle implants in your arms will make you lift more weights. 

I agree. Either Dameon's post or this page in particular should be stickied to the top of the Limb Lengthening Discussion and Questions section. It's something that everyone considering this surgery should read.

[shortkid]

This post just made me a little depressed. I thought you could make a full recovery after LL. I know people say they lose a little athletic ability but I thought after a couple years if you work on it everything would get back to normal :/

[crimsontide]

short kid... I'm not done yet, but i  will tell you the most likely longterm complications from ll

i guess early arthritis is possible, but for various reasons,I'm not too worried about it, and won't not show up for a while,.. if it ever did in the future,  I'm confident that i could deal with it, especially with all the medical advances that will happen in next 20-30 years

reduced athletic ability is a given... by that i mean you'll never  be equal to the athlete you were before, but could be 90%,  though it depends

painmaches, i guess its possible, thought i don't think this happens with all/most


what i think is a definite possibility is the numbness,reduced sensations in certain parts of my legs... it does not  hinder the functioning of the leg, but it does feel odd to touch a part of your leg and have  it be numb.... id say this complication appears to be quite frequent... permeant in a lot of cases too...  its wort it to me though... id much rather be taller and deal with numbness than  short and no numbness

[gettingtaller]

I absolutely have some numbness (1 month post ckicking).
I've met lots of patients who are a few years post surgery and they've all been free of any of the scary stuff. It's worth knowing all of the above but I think a lot of it is worst case scenario stuff.

[Wannabegiant]

This post just made me a little depressed. I thought you could make a full recovery after LL. I know people say they lose a little athletic ability but I thought after a couple years if you work on it everything would get back to normal :/

It depends a bit on how much you lengthen, and what method you use. A lot of the the problems with the knees can be avoided if you dont use an internal nail on your tibias, and like doctor Franz (an ortopedic surgeon posting on this forum) confirmed, doing 5 cm or less is significantly safer than doing more. If you stay within that threshold, you should theoretically be able to recover to the point of not noticing the loss of athletic ability in the long run.

Since the mechanics of the legs are always changed, its probably impossible to technically reach 100% of what you where before, but the less you lengthen the less you change the mechanics of your legs, so it will probably not be noticeable at 5 or less cm.

[ReadRothbard]

You can; Dr. Paley and Dr. Guichet say you can themselves.

[Morgenst.]

I've gotten in touch with Dr. Barinovs contact Irene and she informed me that he does can do "external and internal" which I assume means Lon of LATN for 2000 euros more than the listed price. originally I was set on pure external and staying the entire consolidation phase in Russia but if for 2000 more it cuts the time I gotta spend in Russia and is about the same price as if I did externals when factoring in housing and meals after the initial three month coverage. So I wondering in layman's terms if you could what's the so bad about doing LON and LATN on tibias?

[programdude]

To my understanding the main thing, that at least turned me off, is permanent knee pain.

[Morgenst.]

Right we've read that on here but I can't figure out how exactly? Is the nail inserted through the knee?

[programdude]

Yeah it is

[Medium Drink Of Water]

The patellar tendon is split and pulled apart to make a path for the nail to go into the tibia.  Studies have shown 25% of patients who've had this done end up with permanent discomfort in their knees.

[short_outside_tall_inside]

The patellar tendon is split and pulled apart to make a path for the nail to go into the tibia.  Studies have shown 25% of patients who've had this done end up with permanent discomfort in their knees.

does this depend on how much do you lengthen?

[ShortyMcShort]

Hi Herron52, do you happen to know how long a patient can stay in Russia for? Last I heard it was maximum 6 months.
I would probably go to Russia and also stay the entire lengthening and consolidation phase and go home once frames are removed but 6 months is simply not enough time...

Could you ask which visa you'd need and if a patient can get an extension on it?

[Morgenst.]

I plan to yes. She did say six months maximum and then went on to pitch combined internal. I'm curious to see how and if an extension is even possible. Perhaps it depends on your country of origin and their relations with Russia? No idea honestly. I do know that RGkEY stayed for about eight to nine months there til he got his frames off so.. There's got to be a way

[Medium Drink Of Water]

does this depend on how much do you lengthen?

Not one bit.

[KrP1]

Nice to see that. The problem is knee pain

[KrP1]

Why doctor doesnt inser the nail by another way and allways through the knee when is well know that it makes knee pain?

[ShortyMcShort]

I plan to yes. She did say six months maximum and then went on to pitch combined internal. I'm curious to see how and if an extension is even possible. Perhaps it depends on your country of origin and their relations with Russia? No idea honestly. I do know that RGkEY stayed for about eight to nine months there til he got his frames off so.. There's got to be a way

RGKEY IS the reason why you cant stay for more than 6months now lol  They had visa issues with him and got in trouble or something and now they cant offer more than 6 months hence why I was thinking of India which according to Kilokahn you can get a medical visa and stay for 6months and get another 4 months extension once over there? So in total 10 months which is close to enough time for frame removal? Depending on how many cms you lengthen of course 

It works out roughly the same as Dr Barinov for me, its also hospital vs hotel in terms of accommodation

Could you give me more info on what she pitched to you regarding combined internal? Im quite interested on the topic?

[Overdozer]

Dude, you don't need to stay here for your consolidation phase, that's completely uncalled for. It's a very boring phase and requires only patience.

[ShortyMcShort]

Well there are some of us who dont want our parents or friends and family seeing us in these hideous, medieval torture looking fixators and Im one of them. So going back home early to consolidate is a problem for me, especially since I wont be telling anyone, not even my parents lol. Atleast until I get back home after frame removal anyway. It will be a long and boring process no doubt but what can you do but cop it and hopefully get through it 

Plus I really dont want to go through the airport and get through customs with them on...

Do you think a patient can do say 5cms tibias, stay and consolidate and do Precice 2 on femurs for another 6-7cms 7-8 months after the initial tibia surgery while the fixators are still on your tibias and go home once you are done lengthening femurs and frame removal? Or is that a bad idea?

[Overdozer]

Plus I really dont want to go through the airport and get through customs with them on...

??
Are you afraid they're going to strip you and search for guns in your anus, because they can't really use the metal detector machine?

At the very least you can rent an appartment in your country and just hide there instead of staying in Russia, lol.

Do you think a patient can do say 5cms tibias, stay and consolidate and do Precice 2 on femurs for another 6-7cms 7-8 months after the initial tibia surgery while the fixators are still on your tibias and go home once you are done lengthening femurs and frame removal? Or is that a bad idea?

Why not? And 5cm tibias shouldn't require you more than 6 months usually, at least if you're in your 20s.

[ShortyMcShort]

At the very least you can rent an appartment in your country and just hide there instead of staying in Russia, lol.
Why not? And 5cm tibias shouldn't require you more than 6 months usually, at least if you're in your 20s.

Renting an apartment in my home country and go into lockdown seems just as depressing as staying in a hotel for months and months lol. And the likelihood of getting seen on one of those days when I'll go for xrays or doctor visits seems very likely 

I can apply for a one year medical visa in my home country and hopefully that will be enough time to do both segments consecutively, thats the plan so I think I'll be consolidating there(most likely going to be India with Dr Parihar)

If 5cms requires roughly 6 months then that will be great for me, but ofcourse everyone is different.