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[raymond]

What gives confidence to patients and surgeons that during lengthening blood vessels, nerves and muscles regenerate and don't degrade in physical characteristics due to stretching? Are there studies on this? I have not seen a single study anywhere. All studies are about how patients feel after lengthening but not how the nerves, blood vessels and muscles change at a biological and microscopic level.

Let's say after LL you feel normal but your blood vessels have become 20% narrower. In your late 40s you get mild diabetes or cholesterol and because your blood vessels are narrower you are at a risk of blood clots.

[tallmen]

They repair and regenerate themselves over time. In that much time your bone will pretty much replace itself and so does other parts.

[raymond]

They repair and regenerate themselves over time. In that much time your bone will pretty much replace itself and so does other parts.

How do you know? there are no studies on this.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

Doctors have examined the tissues.  They're not stretched out like silly putty over the new bone.

[raymond]

Doctors have examined the tissues.  They're not stretched out like silly putty over the new bone.

Are there studies?
And what about nerves and blood vessels?

[raymond]

I have messaged Michael Assayag, surely he would know and hopefully respond here.

[readyprecisestryde]

Paley told me nerves regenerate 1mm per day and recommends to keep the lengthening 1mm or less per day. I am not sure about the muscles though

[raymond]

Paley told me nerves regenerate 1mm per day and recommends to keep the lengthening 1mm or less per day. I am not sure about the muscles though

Yeah nerves are generally known to heal except around the spine. Still some studies would be nice to have.

What about blood vessels (arteries and veins)?

[readyprecisestryde]

I don't know about blood vessels and please let us know once you hear from Dr. Assayag

[tallmen]

It's basic biology.

[REBORN]

Here's the study
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2910611/

[raymond]

It's basic biology.

  Can you tell me which chapter in 7th grade this was taught in?

[raymond]

Here's the study
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2910611/

This study was performed on canines (okay we might assume that the changes would be similar in humans) and no analysis on blood vessels and nerves is made. The study is focused on tissues.

[tallmen]

people cut their blood vesseles and nerves all the time in accidents and other things. My friend cut his blood vessel in an accident and almost died by bleeding it he recovered and they regenerate. If you'll google enough you'll find some proof.

[raymond]

people cut their blood vesseles and nerves all the time in accidents and other things. My friend cut his blood vessel in an accident and almost died by bleeding it he recovered and they regenerate. If you'll google enough you'll find some proof.

Broken blood vessel is different from a stretched blood vessel. How do you know that the diameter of a blood vessel doesn't reduce with stretching?

[Medium Drink Of Water]

Broken blood vessel is different from a stretched blood vessel. How do you know that the diameter of a blood vessel doesn't reduce with stretching?

Because they're made of cells.

[raymond]

Because they're made of cells.

So stretching any part of the body that has living cells means that it will regenerate and not reduce in width?

Will that apply to the liver and kidneys? Do you think we could surgically break some vertebrae and put a lengthening plate and lengthen them and all the organs in the torso would regenerate and behave normally?

edit = I'm not seriously suggesting torso lengthening, I just brought that up to prove my point that stretching any living body of cells doesn't mean proper regeneration.

[maximize]

Blood vessels you have nothing to worry about. As long as you exercise regularly and are young enough (like <60), don't smoke, your blood vessels will be fine. Even after a heart attack, one of the points of encouraging cardiac rehab (exercise) is that you can still create new blood supplies to compensate for the blocked areas. See: https://symbiosisonlinepublishing.com/cardiology/cardiology46.php

So you should have zero concern about blood vessels. Blood vessels are easy as your body is built to recreate them any time you get a cut or tissue damage. No stress.

Muscles are a bit trickier. I read one study on rabbits who had their muscles stretched (if I recall correctly) and they had not just stretching of the muscle but new muscle tissue development.

I think there are two perspectives on what happens to the muscle when we stretch it in LL. One is that we become permanently weaker to a slight degree because the muscles are permanently stretched past their ideal function length (and thus won't contract as strongly anymore). Another is that we might actually create new muscle tissue like the rabbits so function is preserved. Probably this is different for each person and the truth is somewhere in between.

Humans don't make muscle tissue easily. Eg. If you get a gunshot through your bicep, you're going to get a big scar through the muscle. It won't regenerate as perfect new muscle.

Even worse are nerves. Obviously we can't regrow nerves easily at all. During the stretching nerves can become permanently damaged but the ones that seem most prone to this are the sensory nerves of the shin which most people don't care much about. In theory nerves can grow 1 mm per day but this probably also varies person to person.

When we do flexibility training, many people hypothesize that we aren't actually gaining more stretchability of our muscles but rather just retraining our nervous system to tolerate greater amounts of stretch. Perhaps this is also the nerves stretching a bit.

Either way if you're worried about stretch related damage your best bet is to maximize your flexibility before the surgery. If you're super stretchy already, then the 7 cm of lengthening will just return you to the "normal range" of flexibility and one hopes your nerves and muscles will best tolerate it.

You should also expect not to be as explosively strong after if you care about that sort of thing. Unless you get lucky.

From my perspective none of this is a big concern. I worry more about misalignments of the joints and mechanical axis which could lead to inefficient motion, chronic joint pain and premature osteoarthritis of the knees/hips/ankles. It only takes a very slight error in the surgeon's hand or poor planning to throw this off.

The soft tissue stuff is more minor. Alignment is everything.

[raymond]

Thank you so much maximize.

As for your worry about misalignment, it's a fixable problem. Down the line if you develop problems, fixing alignment is far easier than LL. There are procedures like HTO which have quicker recovery time than LL. No one enjoys surgery but misalignment pertains to bones which can be fixed.

The problems caused due to stretching if any are fundamental and not something reversible even with shortening. With shortening the problem is, blood vessels might have adapted well to the new length but not muscles, so when you shorten, muscles would be happy but blood vessels would not be since they would have grown.

The same way you argue that even if muscles don't regenerate you would be like a less flexible person, I would argue that even if your alignment isn't perfect after LL you would like those people who don't have perfect alignment but get by just fine. Look around and you will see people with bow legs, knock knees, mild length discrepancy and not everyone tries to get them fixed. My alignment is not perfect to begin with, so LL might even make it more theoretically correct for example.

[tallmen]

So stretching any part of the body that has living cells means that it will regenerate and not reduce in width?

Will that apply to the liver and kidneys? Do you think we could surgically break some vertebrae and put a lengthening plate and lengthen them and all the organs in the torso would regenerate and behave normally?

edit = I'm not seriously suggesting torso lengthening, I just brought that up to prove my point that stretching any living body of cells doesn't mean proper regeneration.

If you remove 50% of the liver it'll regenerate fully to 100%. This is a fact.

[maximize]

Thank you so much maximize.

As for your worry about misalignment, it's a fixable problem. Down the line if you develop problems, fixing alignment is far easier than LL. There are procedures like HTO which have quicker recovery time than LL. No one enjoys surgery but misalignment pertains to bones which can be fixed.

The problems caused due to stretching if any are fundamental and not something reversible even with shortening. With shortening the problem is, blood vessels might have adapted well to the new length but not muscles, so when you shorten, muscles would be happy but blood vessels would not be since they would have grown.

The same way you argue that even if muscles don't regenerate you would be like a less flexible person, I would argue that even if your alignment isn't perfect after LL you would like those people who don't have perfect alignment but get by just fine. Look around and you will see people with bow legs, knock knees, mild length discrepancy and not everyone tries to get them fixed. My alignment is not perfect to begin with, so LL might even make it more theoretically correct for example.

Yes that's true people tolerate misalignments but not so easily as they get older and the wear and tear builds. Eventually the joints fall apart for lots of us either way though and we need joint replacements. In theory LL can fix as well as cause misalignments if done correctly.

You really have nothing to worry about with the blood vessels. You can worry about nerve injury from rapid stretching if your flexibility is not exceptional before. You can worry about reduced muscle power from stretching and perhaps not multiplying or truly adapting muscle. Those are minor issues unless you're an athlete though. If you just want to walk and feel normal, in my opinion, getting the alignment right is more important, and it's a game of millimeters.

You ever do any home improvement work or build any furniture? The saws and screws they use in joint surgery aren't really any fancier. Just sterile. When you're building a cabinet or mounting something in your bathroom and it's off on one end by a few mm you won't really care. But if it's your leg you have to stand on every day it's a bit more important you'll find.

Revision surgery is never desirable and won't be pursued unless there's a massive problem. Most small errors you'll just have to live with. Easier when your toilet roll holder isn't perfectly straight. Harder when it's your joint.

[raymond]

I found Donghoon Lee's video on this topic



According to him:

- regenerated bone is identical to original bone and there is no scar tissue
- with muscles, there is scar tissue and the regenerated muscle is not exactly normal. This is where you can lose some abilities
- with nerves, they grow back (not clear if identical to original state) and if you don't create any damage during surgery or during lengthening you should be fine
- with blood vessels, he seems to say that as long as during surgery they are not damaged, they should be fine. He says lengthening does not affect blood vessels

[raymond]

Honestly I'm quite surprised people get this surgery without knowing these basics and that many doctors don't admit these things (like how muscles don't regenerate without scar tissue). Doctors seem to focus on explaining what "could" go wrong and how the doctor would avoid that but not what "would" definitely go wrong even when it's done right. In this case I am referring to how muscles don't fully regenerate.

[pownzorgeek]

I found Donghoon Lee's video on this topic



According to him:

- regenerated bone is identical to original bone and there is no scar tissue
- with muscles, there is scar tissue and the regenerated muscle is not exactly normal. This is where you can lose some abilities
- with nerves, they grow back (not clear if identical to original state) and if you don't create any damage during surgery or during lengthening you should be fine
- with blood vessels, he seems to say that as long as during surgery they are not damaged, they should be fine. He says lengthening does not affect blood vessels

Thanks for the video, addresses a crucial part of limb lengthening surgery. There's life right after the surgery, but also life long term after the surgery. And you better know what happens to your body.

[las vegas baby]

this makes me think leg length surgery is some kinda pseudo science. no one knows what happens but the legs "look ok" after its done so surgeons say its safe.

Its crazy they offer this in America and   no one can answer what happens anatomically when  bone is lengthened.  I have been telling people that every tissue is created as before but from reading this   thread  there is  NO evidence. all a bunch of surveys asking patient satisfaction. I think its safe to say this should be attempted only by people with severe mental illness and even with these unknowns its still better for their overall wellbeing. but for normal people who want a "boost" or enhanchment its not a great idea.

why dont doctors study this stuff? is it that theyre afraid that the results will be unfavorable and they will lose their jobs??

[Arcon]

this makes me think leg length surgery is some kinda pseudo science. no one knows what happens but the legs "look ok" after its done so surgeons say its safe.

Its crazy they offer this in America and   no one can answer what happens anatomically when  bone is lengthened.  I have been telling people that every tissue is created as before but from reading this   thread  there is  NO evidence. all a bunch of surveys asking patient satisfaction. I think its safe to say this should be attempted only by people with severe mental illness and even with these unknowns its still better for their overall wellbeing. but for normal people who want a "boost" or enhanchment its not a great idea.

why dont doctors study this stuff? is it that theyre afraid that the results will be unfavorable and they will lose their jobs??

Limb lengthening has been around since the 50's not only for cosemtic reasons but for all sorts of discrepancies and deformities- There is a lot of research available so stop being paranoid.

[Jamesy998]

this makes me think leg length surgery is some kinda pseudo science. no one knows what happens but the legs "look ok" after its done so surgeons say its safe.

Its crazy they offer this in America and   no one can answer what happens anatomically when  bone is lengthened.  I have been telling people that every tissue is created as before but from reading this   thread  there is  NO evidence. all a bunch of surveys asking patient satisfaction. I think its safe to say this should be attempted only by people with severe mental illness and even with these unknowns its still better for their overall wellbeing. but for normal people who want a "boost" or enhanchment its not a great idea.

why dont doctors study this stuff? is it that theyre afraid that the results will be unfavorable and they will lose their jobs??

I say everyone should stick to modest amounts of lengthening and completely avoid a second surgery altogether unless it's crucial. Does not take a genius to realise that doing 5cm is safer than doing 7cm and it makes the world of a difference.

[Jamesy998]

I found Donghoon Lee's video on this topic



According to him:

- regenerated bone is identical to original bone and there is no scar tissue
- with muscles, there is scar tissue and the regenerated muscle is not exactly normal. This is where you can lose some abilities
- with nerves, they grow back (not clear if identical to original state) and if you don't create any damage during surgery or during lengthening you should be fine
- with blood vessels, he seems to say that as long as during surgery they are not damaged, they should be fine. He says lengthening does not affect blood vessels

One of the few doctors with a no bullcrap toleration attitude, if only everyone was like him and warned future patients about the possible complications then there would be less people getting it done and regretting it later.

[pownzorgeek]

I found Donghoon Lee's video on this topic



According to him:

- regenerated bone is identical to original bone and there is no scar tissue
- with muscles, there is scar tissue and the regenerated muscle is not exactly normal. This is where you can lose some abilities
- with nerves, they grow back (not clear if identical to original state) and if you don't create any damage during surgery or during lengthening you should be fine
- with blood vessels, he seems to say that as long as during surgery they are not damaged, they should be fine. He says lengthening does not affect blood vessels

Do we have some more information on what ramifications there are for the grown muscle to be scar tissue? Does it just mean that it's lesser quality muscle or does it have other ramifications in the future?

[TheDream]

From one of the videos Paley made about a year ago he talked about them focusing a lot on creating smarter and smaller lengthening mechanisms.

It will be interesting to see if they are able to create devices that lengthen at smarter rates whether it will give better results on nerve and muscle tissue in LL.

Like right now when you lengthen, it is in instant steps of ~0.3 mm in one second. Three times a day to achieve ~1 mm per day. This causes an instant large spike of pressure on the muscles / nerves. If we can keep this pressure lower, by lengthening slower but constantly, maybe during sleeping or something similar, it might minimize long term damage to soft tissue.