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[xianeffect]

So much sales tactics from advertisers of clinics in Turkey lately and this is not the first time a new doctors name shows up and suddenly a bunch of new accounts saying how good they are...  Notice that after these doctor associates register here all of the sudden diaries come from them claiming they are good and recommending people go there, like this Buldu guy who is advertising all over just as one example.

Let me say that Doctor Paley said himself to beware of ANY surgeon who is advertising cosmetic services, no matter the country. Your short list should be doctors who feel no need to advertise or do cosmetic clients as a very, very small total percent of their entire work. That is why I personally will cross off Doctors Mahboubian, Debiparshad, Monegal, Sarin, and every doctor in Turkey. An honest and careful doctor would not need to open a separate institute for cosmetic patients or work with a sales team.

[Vibes]

While I agree with you, I think it is important to keep in mind that Dr. Paley is of course incentivized to make comments like that because he knows his reputation will bring him a steady flow of CLL patients and therefore disqualifying other surgeons--especially new ones trying to establish the reputation he already enjoys--ultimately ends up being beneficial for him.

AKA it's easy for him to make statements like that because he benefits financially from those statements.

That is not to say that Dr. Paley does not have every valid point when stating not to go to a surgeon who ONLY does CLL and doesn't handle orthopaedic trauma and specifically limb-lengthening/deformity correction. And it's probably better all around for patients to err on the side of caution.

I don't think it's fair to automatically cross off those doctors you list...but you have to be able to see through the weeds and be discriminate which unfortunately can be difficult when no true, verified body of information exists for this surgery yet.

[Kal el]

Bro u r new here....so u need to do a lot of research and then comment on wht other people say....it's good tht u r here with safety and precautions in mind but still u do need to research a lot abt the doctors and this procedure itself....try reading patient diaries will help u alot....but there is one particular doctor i wld warn u against..Dr. Sarin😅

While I agree with you, I think it is important to keep in mind that Dr. Paley is of course incentivized to make comments like that because he knows his reputation will bring him a steady flow of CLL patients and therefore disqualifying other surgeons--especially new ones trying to establish the reputation he already enjoys--ultimately ends up being beneficial for him.

AKA it's easy for him to make statements like that because he benefits financially from those statements.

That is not to say that Dr. Paley does not have every valid point when stating not to go to a surgeon who ONLY does CLL and doesn't handle orthopaedic trauma and specifically limb-lengthening/deformity correction. And it's probably better all around for patients to err on the side of caution.

I don't think it's fair to automatically cross off those doctors you list...but you have to be able to see through the weeds and be discriminate which unfortunately can be difficult when no true, verified body of information exists for this surgery yet.

. Completely agreed👍🏼

[ghkid2019]

just do your own due diligence. just because a doc advertise doesnt really mean much. they are in this to make money yeah, so they would advertise. doctors with bad track record like sarin, monegal, we can cross out not due to them advertising but simply because they are poor results. but doctors like mahboubian who have done shady advertising with bad members collaboration with apotheosis same dude that essentially ran a propaganda speech limiting forum used to bait dozens of people to sarin- doesnt mean much when plenty of people have gone to dr. mahboubian and have had great results. obviously one can never really know, maybe those diaries of dr. m are faked. that could be a possibility.

I have a dream that my orthopedic surgeons will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their advertising methods but by the content of their results.

if we were to cross out mahboubian due to advertising, many more people would not be able to afford it in the states.

just do own research. plenty of bad doctors who dont advertise. plenty of good doctors who do advertise.

[Vibes]

Bro u r new here....so u need to do a lot of research and then comment on wht other people say....it's good tht u r here with safety and precautions in mind but still u do need to research a lot abt the doctors and this procedure itself....try reading patient diaries will help u alot....but there is one particular doctor i wld warn u against..Dr. Sarin😅. Completely agreed👍🏼

Thank-you for the kind words of advice Kal el  I am definitely new here but I have been researching for many months, speaking to patients, I even had a consultation with Dr. Paley and Dr. Rozbruch as well. But I am still deciding on the surgery...I'm just not sure what to believe it's hard to know truly how long recovery will take.

[Vibes]

just do your own due diligence. just because a doc advertise doesnt really mean much. they are in this to make money yeah, so they would advertise. doctors with bad track record like sarin, monegal, we can cross out not due to them advertising but simply because they are poor results. but doctors like mahboubian who have done shady advertising with bad members collaboration with apotheosis same dude that essentially ran a propaganda speech limiting forum used to bait dozens of people to sarin- doesnt mean much when plenty of people have gone to dr. mahboubian and have had great results. obviously one can never really know, maybe those diaries of dr. m are faked. that could be a possibility.

I have a dream that my orthopedic surgeons will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their advertising methods but by the content of their results.

if we were to cross out mahboubian due to advertising, many more people would not be able to afford it in the states.

just do own research. plenty of bad doctors who dont advertise. plenty of good doctors who do advertise.

Wow that is so concerning I had no idea about Dr. Mahboubian...I even considered getting a consult from him but this changes my mind completely.

But you are also right--what are we to do when he is such a good price option and he has produced some good results.

[ghkid2019]

Wow that is so concerning I had no idea about Dr. Mahboubian...I even considered getting a consult from him but this changes my mind completely.

But you are also right--what are we to do when he is such a good price option and he has produced some good results.

I wouldn't worry about it. I have my reasons to believe Dr. M is very competent. He was just starting out and wanted to advertise his job, and unfortunately met with a psychopath... I don't think you should cross him out. This was years ago.

Obviously don't blindly trust me. I could be payed by Dr. M after all. Do ur due diligence research

[Body Builder]

Well said.
Turkey is a place full of merchant who do LL like India before (with the horror stories of Sarin, Sach, Dhawan etc we all know from that and the old forum).

Also, usa has its own merchant, Derbipashad, who is advertising LL even in unilad.
These are the worst kind of doctors to do LL.
Stay away from them.

[Kal el]

I dnt know wht is wrong with u bro....but ever since i joined this forum i never found anything optimistic abt ur comments....not even a tad bit....i know u present the facts but there are better ways to do it man.

[Tartar]

Well said.
Turkey is a place full of merchant who do LL like India before (with the horror stories of Sarin, Sach, Dhawan etc we all know from that and the old forum).

Also, usa has its own merchant, Derbipashad, who is advertising LL even in unilad.
These are the worst kind of doctors to do LL.
Stay away from them.

I can understand the others but, even if you don't like that people could know about LL, Debiparshad has shown to be a good and honest doctor, I don't think there should be any reason to avoid and disparage him

[Body Builder]

I can understand the others but, even if you don't like that people could know about LL, Debiparshad has shown to be a good and honest doctor, I don't think there should be any reason to avoid and disparage him

Any salesmen can't be a good doctor imo. LL, even a cosmetic surgery, is something massive and very risky that canct be advertised as something easy and usual.
It is the most extreme cosmetic surgery and anyone who advertise it is a moneyhungry merchant that can't be trusted.
Of course Derbipashad is not like the turkish doctors who are more close Indian ones but if you are in the usa there are far more serious doctors like Paley, Rozbruch or Mahboubuan who don't advertise LL even on Unilad so I can't find any readon for someone to go to him.
Unless he wants to be the next topic on Unilad or 9gag, something weirdos like Apotheosis would dream of.

[Activatedxx]

So much sales tactics from advertisers of clinics in Turkey lately and this is not the first time a new doctors name shows up and suddenly a bunch of new accounts saying how good they are...  Notice that after these doctor associates register here all of the sudden diaries come from them claiming they are good and recommending people go there, like this Buldu guy who is advertising all over just as one example.

Let me say that Doctor Paley said himself to beware of ANY surgeon who is advertising cosmetic services, no matter the country. Your short list should be doctors who feel no need to advertise or do cosmetic clients as a very, very small total percent of their entire work. That is why I personally will cross off Doctors Mahboubian, Debiparshad, Monegal, Sarin, and every doctor in Turkey. An honest and careful doctor would not need to open a separate institute for cosmetic patients or work with a sales team.

Eh, you’re partially right but just because a doctor advertises does not diminish their degree of skill and success

I personally hate how mahboubin advertises and his disrespectful billboard with the short guy and woman with heels but I have to admit he’s a good doctor, not from opinion but from the successful diaries of multiple people like infullstryde or movie, just like some of the other doctors you listed. Some of the other ones you listed I would stay away from

[Activatedxx]

Any salesmen can't be a good doctor imo. LL, even a cosmetic surgery, is something massive and very risky that canct be advertised as something easy and usual.
It is the most extreme cosmetic surgery and anyone who advertise it is a moneyhungry merchant that can't be trusted.
Of course Derbipashad is not like the turkish doctors who are more close Indian ones but if you are in the usa there are far more serious doctors like Paley, Rozbruch or Mahboubuan who don't advertise LL even on Unilad so I can't find any readon for someone to go to him.
Unless he wants to be the next topic on Unilad or 9gag, something weirdos like Apotheosis would dream of.

Just like the other member pointed out, your comments are always 99% pessimistic. This is a major surgery, but none the less you can’t just be negative about every single thing about it.

[Body Builder]

Just like the other member pointed out, your comments are always 99% pessimistic. This is a major surgery, but none the less you can’t just be negative about every single thing about it.

I am negative because I say that some doctors behave like merchants and that kind of doctors are the ones future LLers should avoid?

In contrast to you and most of the people who write here, I did LL and I know what I am talking about and I am not talking theoretical.
If you find the truth pessimistic (at least my truth), you can go to Turkey, you can lengthen 10cm with external femurs etc and feel optimistic and happy with crippled legs.
I am here to tell what I believe and I know as a veteran, not to tell lies or delusions that some of you may want to read.


And on that topic I agreed with the creator who mentioned some LL merchants like most turkish doctors, what is the pessimistic about it?
Anyway, thats the way I write and I am honest and fair I believe. But I am and I will always be very strict with merchants or butcher doctors.

[ghkid2019]

I think body builder is just a blunt person and is just wanting to tell the truth and leave out the bullshiet. It may come off as negative but I think the good intentions are there, advising people of the reality of LL. Fine for LL discussions but I can see why if someone is mid-LL and he's going off on them negative it is bad but thankfully I don't think Body builder does that

[Activatedxx]

I am negative because I say that some doctors behave like merchants and that kind of doctors are the ones future LLers should avoid?

In contrast to you and most of the people who write here, I did LL and I know what I am talking about and I am not talking theoretical.
If you find the truth pessimistic (at least my truth), you can go to Turkey, you can lengthen 10cm with external femurs etc and feel optimistic and happy with crippled legs.
I am here to tell what I believe and I know as a veteran, not to tell lies or delusions that some of you may want to read.


And on that topic I agreed with the creator who mentioned some LL merchants like most turkish doctors, what is the pessimistic about it?
Anyway, thats the way I write and I am honest and fair I believe. But I am and I will always be very strict with merchants or butcher doctors.

I think you misunderstood, it’s not that you’re negative, it’s that you’re negative about every single comment and post

I have not seen 1 LL comment that was positive. I’m not challenging your opinion, just trying to understand why you are so pessimistic of every single aspect of it

[Kal el]

Heavily agreed....one shan't be pessimistic in life to tht extent..otherwise it gets carried over ur work ethic including everthing else.

[Body Builder]

I think you misunderstood, it’s not that you’re negative, it’s that you’re negative about every single comment and post

I have not seen 1 LL comment that was positive. I’m not challenging your opinion, just trying to understand why you are so pessimistic of every single aspect of it

How can I be negative about every single comment while I totally agree with the first one of the creator of that topic (I even begun my post with well said)?
Anyway I won't continue that argument, after all if someone doesn't like the way I write its up to him, no hard feelings.
I just write what I've seen from my personal experience and generally from the LL world which I watch closely for more than 10 years and like turkish doctors now we used to have Indians one, before them Chinese ones (till LL was almost banned on China) etc.
But so much advertisement of LL as I've seen on Turkey the last years I have never seen before and this is not only unethical but I truly believe that it is dangerous as that kind of doctors talk about LL like merchants and not true orthopaedic doctors and most of the times, that kind of doctor just wants as much patients as he can without trully supporting them or do everyrhing right to assist them and that leads to horror stories.

Its up to you to focus on what I am writing or if that sounds pessimistic. For me though what matters is the truth.

[Arcon]

@BodyBuilder is not pessimistic but rather realistic in most of his comments. Thank you @Bodybuilder, your experience and contribution are well appreciated.

[Body Builder]

@BodyBuilder is not pessimistic but rather realistic in most of his comments. Thank you @Bodybuilder, your experience and contribution are well appreciated.

Thank you too for the kind words.
It is positive that many people here can understand that what I am writing is not to sound pessimistic or aggressive most of the times but to make future LLers think better before they make their choices.

[BelowTheMean]

Bodybuilder is just mad that Dr. D. has worked with popular mainstream social media sites to publish articles on CLL. If you actually read the FB comments on those articles though, it's clear that the general public still has no idea about the details of the procedure and thinks it's ridiculous. I doubt the average person on there will remember what LL is 15 minutes later...

[Vibes]

Bodybuilder is not being pessimistic. It's called "cold, hard" truth for a reason. It isn't pretty.

In fact, we all owe him and anyone else who carried this community forward (and continues to do so) a huge debt. Without them, our knowledge of limb lengthening would either a) not exist or b) include large areas of ignorance.

I don't see it as being negative at all. In fact, I would much rather have this matter-of-fact talk with something so life-alteringly dangerous as CLL.

[Body Builder]

Bodybuilder is just mad that Dr. D. has worked with popular mainstream social media sites to publish articles on CLL. If you actually read the FB comments on those articles though, it's clear that the general public still has no idea about the details of the procedure and thinks it's ridiculous. I doubt the average person on there will remember what LL is 15 minutes later...

Yes I am mad of merchant doctors like him and promoters like you.
Also, they'll remember for sure the next time they will see someone struggling to walk for some months and then becoming that he did something that has being ridiculed in pages like unilad and they will ridicule the person who did it while if they never knew about it probably they would never thought that this person did LL.

Dr D and all other merchant dotors are responsible for less and less LLers able to keep their surgery hidden and it is a disgrace someone like you to defend them for that.

@vibes
Thank you for the kind words. You are truly on point of the reason why I am so harsh some times. I really want the best of every LLer.

[azaghul]

Yes I am mad of merchant doctors like him and promoters like you.
Also, they'll remember for sure the next time they will see someone struggling to walk for some months and then becoming that he did something that has being ridiculed in pages like unilad and they will ridicule the person who did it while if they never knew about it probably they would never thought that this person did LL.

Dr D and all other merchant dotors are responsible for less and less LLers able to keep their surgery hidden and it is a disgrace someone like you to defend them for that.

@vibes
Thank you for the kind words. You are truly on point of the reason why I am so harsh some times. I really want the best of every LLer.

Is cll really that life altering dangerous if you’re with a good surgeon, do ur pt and set realistic goals such as 6-7cm for femurs?

[Body Builder]

Is cll really that life altering dangerous if you’re with a good surgeon, do ur pt and set realistic goals such as 6-7cm for femurs?

If you are with an experienced and honest doctor that is first of all an orthopedist and you do what he tells you exactly (from the amount and speed of lengthening to pt etc) chances are that you'll be very good after LL.
But lets stay on topic.

[Vibes]

Is cll really that life altering dangerous if you’re with a good surgeon, do ur pt and set realistic goals such as 6-7cm for femurs?

You missed the point. The entire reason it is now, currently, not life-threatening is because of people precisely like Body Builder who have lived the experience and provide that evidence to the larger body of knowledge.

AKA from him we now know ATL is bad, bad and yes--causes life-altering complications. That doesn't mean those complications need to be "threatening" your life.

[azaghul]

You missed the point. The entire reason it is now, currently, not life-threatening is because of people precisely like Body Builder who have lived the experience and provide that evidence to the larger body of knowledge.

AKA from him we now know ATL is bad, bad and yes--causes life-altering complications. That doesn't mean those complications need to be "threatening" your life.

I wasnt referring to atl just cll in general: even with stryde non-union can occur.

[BelowTheMean]

Yes I am mad of merchant doctors like him and promoters like you.
Also, they'll remember for sure the next time they will see someone struggling to walk for some months and then becoming that he did something that has being ridiculed in pages like unilad and they will ridicule the person who did it while if they never knew about it probably they would never thought that this person did LL.

Dr D and all other merchant dotors are responsible for less and less LLers able to keep their surgery hidden and it is a disgrace someone like you to defend them for that.

@vibes
Thank you for the kind words. You are truly on point of the reason why I am so harsh some times. I really want the best of every LLer.

How am I a promoter? Show me one post of mine where I tell anyone to get surgery with Dr. D. Just because I picked him to do my surgery and I'm writing a journal doesn't make me a promoter. If that makes me a promoter, then everyone who has a journal on here is a promoter then...

I'm not for or against publicizing this surgery. I don't believe it will ever become mainstream and I can't control if other people decide to talk about it publicly, so it's not something that I care about.

You are clearly obsessed with LL since you are still here many years after surgery, so your mind works differently than a normal person. A normal person on the Internet who sees a post about LL isn't going to think about doing it or even put 5 minutes of thought into it. You are greatly overestimating how much the average person cares about the concept of LL. They'll treat it like any other piece of weird news that they read and forget about it quickly. Even if they see a friend who suddenly became taller, they most likely wouldn't put 2 and 2 together and figure out that the guy did LL, let alone someone on the street who is walking with crutches or something.

[Body Builder]

How am I a promoter? Show me one post of mine where I tell anyone to get surgery with Dr. D. Just because I picked him to do my surgery and I'm writing a journal doesn't make me a promoter. If that makes me a promoter, then everyone who has a journal on here is a promoter then...

I'm not for or against publicizing this surgery. I don't believe it will ever become mainstream and I can't control if other people decide to talk about it publicly, so it's not something that I care about.

You are clearly obsessed with LL since you are still here many years after surgery, so your mind works differently than a normal person. A normal person on the Internet who sees a post about LL isn't going to think about doing it or even put 5 minutes of thought into it. You are greatly overestimating how much the average person cares about the concept of LL. They'll treat it like any other piece of weird news that they read and forget about it quickly. Even if they see a friend who suddenly became taller, they most likely wouldn't put 2 and 2 together and figure out that the guy did LL, let alone someone on the street who is walking with crutches or something.

Someone who supports a doctor that much, especially when he is clearly a salesman, most of the times is a promoter, otherwise he does not have a clear view.
Maybe you simply support your doctor without taking on account what I've said, about how bad is for LLers to people know a lot aboit this surgery and promote it even on pages like unilad with million members.

And that noone would care about LL is just your opinion.
Most.of us known how suspicious  can people become if they see you suddenly with fixators or even without walking properly (with internals only where nothing is visible) after some surgery and then becoming taller.
With internals though, most people could keep that surgery easily confidential, but if someone promotes everywhere that something invisible can make you taller, then more and more people will suspect it.

Maybe you are ok with that. But you'll see the reactions of people, especially women, if they knew what you did and trust me, they will never feel the same about you again.
Most will think of you as a weirdo or  too insecure to want you as a mate.
If thats ok for you, for me it is not.
And after all, if a doctor is careful, experienced and a true professional, people will come to him much kore than being a merchant showman who promotes everywhere LL with even lies, as Paley saif about D.

So I don't know if you are a promoter. What I know is that D's tactics are bad for LLers.

[BelowTheMean]

Someone who supports a doctor that much, especially when he is clearly a salesman, most of the times is a promoter, otherwise he does not have a clear view.
Maybe you simply support your doctor without taking on account what I've said, about how bad is for LLers to people know a lot aboit this surgery and promote it even on pages like unilad with million members.

And that noone would care about LL is just your opinion.
Most.of us known how suspicious  can people become if they see you suddenly with fixators or even without walking properly (with internals only where nothing is visible) after some surgery and then becoming taller.
With internals though, most people could keep that surgery easily confidential, but if someone promotes everywhere that something invisible can make you taller, then more and more people will suspect it.

Maybe you are ok with that. But you'll see the reactions of people, especially women, if they knew what you did and trust me, they will never feel the same about you again.
Most will think of you as a weirdo or  too insecure to want you as a mate.
If thats ok for you, for me it is not.
And after all, if a doctor is careful, experienced and a true professional, people will come to him much kore than being a merchant showman who promotes everywhere LL with even lies, as Paley saif about D.

So I don't know if you are a promoter. What I know is that D's tactics are bad for LLers.

I think you should be careful who you call a promoter. Does it look like I made this account to only talk about Dr. D and how great he is? Have I tried to convince anyone on here to get this surgery at all, let alone specifically with Dr. D? This account is older than yours, you know. I never said I disagree with all your points. We agree on some things and disagree on others.

• I agree with you that it would be easier to keep LL a secret if no one was promoting it.
• I agree with you that many people would treat you differently (especially women you plan on dating) if they know you got cosmetic LL. I don't plan on telling anyone that I did it.
• I strongly disagree with the magnitude to which promoting LL will impact any of us personally. Because it is such an invasive procedure that will never become mainstream, there will never be enough people doing it that it would be considered common knowledge. There are probably only thousands or maybe tens of thousands of people doing it every year in the western world. There are billions of men on the planet. Most people hardly even look up from their phones when they're talking to other people. You greatly overestimate how much other random people care about you, especially on stuff like this. The people on this forum are not representative of the normal population. We are the tiny few that actually bothered to look into this and/or are getting it done. Most people that finish their LL get off the forums and go back to living normal lives. Even if an LL article gets 1 million page views on a site like Unilad, it's not within the realm of realism for most people, so they'll read the article like we might read about someone getting surgery to look like Elvis and then forget about it 10 minutes later. No one is going to suddenly start suspecting that other people got LL.
• As for Dr. D promoting the procedure, he's building a business and a brand around it so it's natural for him to do so. Every surgeon promotes themselves, it's really just a question of how much and in what fashion. I'm personally not going to blame him for trying to make money, but I can see what makes you upset about it. I'm sure in the long run he'll find which avenues actually help him get real patients and focus on those. (I doubt anyone reading about it on Facebook or Snapchat can actually afford it in the US.) I'm sure he's not going to throw away marketing dollars if he's not getting a good return on it.
• Besides, just look at the comments for any of the LL articles you mentioned, that are going to a wide audience. Almost all of it is mockery and jokes, like you might see on an article about people getting cosmetic surgery to look like Elvis or Kim Jong Un. When you have actual male models, celebrities, or politicians getting LL and going public about it, that's the day I'll believe that it can be considered mainstream and be worried about people knowing. In the meantime, anyone that sees a guy limping around is just going to assume he had a sports accident.

[Vibes]

I wasnt referring to atl just cll in general: even with stryde non-union can occur.

You aren't wrong, but with STRYDE non-unions are much less likely given the rate control and ability to shorten the nail in these cases.