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[Ascending]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23896855

[Medium Drink Of Water]

Very few people are malnourished enough for it to affect their height these days.

[Ascending]

Very few people are malnourished enough for it to affect their height these days.

As the maps in the following article show this is not true.  There are many countries where poor sanitation and poor diet are still restricting height.  Furthermore, as shown in the same article a number of developed nations have been dipping in height since the 70s because of the availability of cheaply produced poorer quality food - processed and fast food.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/the-tallest-and-shortest-countries-in-the-world/

Even now we see north south divide in the UK with Scottish men now shorter than their English counterparts - previously they were taller.  More details in the following book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Changing-Body-Nutrition-Development-Approaches/dp/0521879752

[ghkid2019]

Genetics is the key factor. Those are secondary and can help only so much. But with a 5'0 non stunted dad and a 5'0 non stunted mom, good luck getting to 6'2 by 'optimizing nutrition and disease'

[..]

Genetics is the key factor. Those are secondary and can help only so much. But with a 5'0 non stunted dad and a 5'0 non stunted mom, good luck getting to 6'2 by 'optimizing nutrition and disease'

Kid, stop pretending to be an expert.

[ghkid2019]

Kid, stop pretending to be an expert.

You don't want to do LL but stick on this forum? May I ask why? It's okay if you don't want to answer

[NotSoBigBadBruin]

Kid, stop pretending to be an expert.

He’s right, though.

Heritability allows us to examine how genetics directly impact an individual's height. For example, a population of white men has a heritability of 80 percent and an average height of 178 centimeters (roughly five feet, 10 inches). If we meet a white man in the street who is 183 cm (six feet) tall, the heritability tells us what fraction of his extra height is caused by genetic variants and what fraction is due to his environment (dietary habit and lifestyle). The man is five centimeters taller than the average. Thus, 80 percent of the extra five centimeters, or four centimeters, is due to genetic variants, whereas one centimeter is due to environmental effects, such as nutrition.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-much-of-human-height/

[..]

He’s right, though.

Heritability allows us to examine how genetics directly impact an individual's height. For example, a population of white men has a heritability of 80 percent and an average height of 178 centimeters (roughly five feet, 10 inches). If we meet a white man in the street who is 183 cm (six feet) tall, the heritability tells us what fraction of his extra height is caused by genetic variants and what fraction is due to his environment (dietary habit and lifestyle). The man is five centimeters taller than the average. Thus, 80 percent of the extra five centimeters, or four centimeters, is due to genetic variants, whereas one centimeter is due to environmental effects, such as nutrition.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-much-of-human-height/

Any idiot would know genetics is the number 1 factor. Nobody's talking about 5'0 non stunted dad and a 5'0 non stunted mom producing a 6'2 kid by 'optimizing nutrition and disease'. 2"-4" make a significant impact on someone's life.

[NotSoBigBadBruin]

2"-4" make a significant impact on someone's life.

I agree, but did you read the example included in my previous post? 1 centimeter!

There’s no way you can gain 2 to 4 inches just by optimizing your nutrition.

[a]

LOL nutrition is t r a s h compared to GENETICS.

[..]

I agree, but did you read the example included in my previous post? 1 centimeter!

There’s no way you can gain 2 to 4 inches just by optimizing your nutrition.

I'm not really convinced that that calculation is accurate or reliable. It looks like a wild estimation.

Also it says for non-white people, the environmental impact is bigger.

Nutrition is not even the only factor here.

I think sleep deprivation and depression play bigger roles  as long as you didn't starve

I knew a guy. Father is 5'6", mother is 4'11". Since he was young, he never missed drinking milk and went to bed at 8PM every night. Now he's about 5'11" or taller.

I knew another guy. Father is 5'9". Mother is 4'11". He left school at 8th grade. I imagined since he left school, he lived stress-free and slept like a baby every single day. Now, 6'.

Sometimes I find it difficult to attribute their cases to coincidence.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

The problem with stuff like this is that people who were picky eaters as kids blame themselves for not gorging themselves on all the available food or not eating enough vegetables, thinking that's why they're short now and considering LL.  It's unlikely that affected you much.  Your brother or father or whoever is taller than you because families and races have genetic variability.

You don't need to justify LL by convincing yourself you somehow didn't get the height you should've been entitled to at birth.  If you want to be taller than you are now, go for the surgery without the guilt or wondering.

A fellow Beijing LL'er I met lived in a refugee camp as a kid before his family was granted asylum in Canada.  He was significantly shorter than his non-refugee younger brother; had some other health issues too since he was a kid.  Living in conditions like that obviously did have something to do with his height.  Probably your upbringing wasn't as deprived and didn't change your height much.

[precice strider]

I'm not really convinced that that calculation is accurate or reliable. It looks like a wild estimation.

Also it says for non-white people, the environmental impact is bigger.

Nutrition is not even the only factor here.

I think sleep deprivation and depression play bigger roles  as long as you didn't starve

I knew a guy. Father is 5'6", mother is 4'11". Since he was young, he never missed drinking milk and went to bed at 8PM every night. Now he's about 5'11" or taller.

I knew another guy. Father is 5'9". Mother is 4'11". He left school at 8th grade. I imagined since he left school, he lived stress-free and slept like a baby every single day. Now, 6'.

Sometimes I find it difficult to attribute their cases to coincidence.

5'4" (?) mom, 5'6" dad.

I drank 3 cups of milk until 11 or 12, ate healthy, exercised, and was forced to go to bed at 8:30 until maybe 12 (so early I would get bored while trying to fall asleep). I remained abnormally short until 13 or 14 and at this point I'm not even sure if I can reach the lowest theoretical height of 5'6" (at night).

[F_99]

Found this one. Possibly inadequate supply of oxygen?

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/08/25/altitude-stunted-growth-children-born-study/

(Direct) https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2769778

[NotSoBigBadBruin]

The problem with stuff like this is that people who were picky eaters as kids blame themselves for not gorging themselves on all the available food or not eating enough vegetables, thinking that's why they're short now and considering LL.  It's unlikely that affected you much.  Your brother or father or whoever is taller than you because families and races have genetic variability.

I totally agree! My father is 176 cm, while his brother is 188 cm. They ate the same food and had pretty much the same lifestyle while growing up.

Of course, environmental factors can play a bigger role in extreme circumstances (severe malnutrition in your childhood, certain diseases, etc.), but you won’t end up being 2 to 4 inches shorter just because you didn’t drink your milk as a kid.

[..]

5'4" (?) mom, 5'6" dad.

I drank 3 cups of milk until 11 or 12, ate healthy, exercised, and was forced to go to bed at 8:30 until maybe 12 (so early I would get bored while trying to fall asleep). I remained abnormally short until 13 or 14 and at this point I'm not even sure if I can reach the lowest theoretical height of 5'6" (at night).

Damn, you're saying you're the same height as your mom?

But at least you have no regret now because you've done everything you could to maximize your height. Meanwhile, I did every single thing that could possibly stunt growth.

So you're 163cm and 17 now. You can still reach 165cm if you're lucky.

The problem with stuff like this is that people who were picky eaters as kids blame themselves for not gorging themselves on all the available food or not eating enough vegetables, thinking that's why they're short now and considering LL.  It's unlikely that affected you much.  Your brother or father or whoever is taller than you because families and races have genetic variability.

You don't need to justify LL by convincing yourself you somehow didn't get the height you should've been entitled to at birth.  If you want to be taller than you are now, go for the surgery without the guilt or wondering.

A fellow Beijing LL'er I met lived in a refugee camp as a kid before his family was granted asylum in Canada.  He was significantly shorter than his non-refugee younger brother; had some other health issues too since he was a kid.  Living in conditions like that obviously did have something to do with his height.  Probably your upbringing wasn't as deprived and didn't change your height much.

Isn't this already a clear example that height can be significantly affected by poor upbringing?

By the way, I read somewhere that Lionel Messi would have been 4'10 or so if he hadn't been given HGH.

[precice strider]

Damn, you're saying you're the same height as your mom?

But at least you have no regret now because you've done everything you could to maximize your height. Meanwhile, I did every single thing that could possibly stunt growth.

So you're 163cm and 17 now. You can still reach 165cm if you're lucky.

Well I've noticed I've been taller than my mom for maybe a year, hence the question mark. For a while she made all the "typical jokes that every mom makes" (according to her) about how I wasn't actually taller than her. Not a good "joke" for someone who has suffered from height dysphoria for 12 years.

[NotSoBigBadBruin]

Isn't this already a clear example that height can be significantly affected by poor upbringing?

As mentioned in my previous post, things like severe malnutrition and certain diseases can of course have a bigger impact. But it seems like you really want to believe that you could be as tall as your brother had you slept more as a teenager. I’m pretty sure you didn’t lose more than 1 or 2 cm due to sleep deprivation, but if it makes you feel better ... 🤷🏼‍♂️

[..]

As mentioned in my previous post, things like severe malnutrition and certain diseases can of course have a bigger impact. But it seems like you really want to believe that you could be as tall as your brother had you slept more as a teenager. I’m pretty sure you didn’t lose more than 1 or 2 cm due to sleep deprivation, but if it makes you feel better ... 🤷🏼‍♂️

I don't have a brother lol

My sleep deprivation and depression were extreme cases.

Kids growing up in a refugee camp most likely sleep better than me.

[NotSoBigBadBruin]

I don't have a brother lol

My sleep deprivation and depression were extreme cases.

Kids growing up in a refugee camp most likely sleep better than me.

Sorry, I confused you with another user whose profile pic looks similar to yours.

So you seriously think that going to bed late is comparable to growing up in a refugee camp? That’s ridiculous! But again, if it makes you feel better ... 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Ascending]

Whilst genetics is clearly a key factor if we look at trends in height in the last century alone there have been some staggering increase in heights and this cannot be due to genetics as genetic effects are made in tiny steps and take a much much larger timescale to be evident.  For example in the past 100 years Korean women have increased in height by 20cm, Iranian men by 16.5cm.

However, these are general trends and they don't necessarily explain why a particular individual is shorter or taller.  So there is no point getting depressed about our heights - after all the reason we are on this forum is to do something about it.  So stay positive.  The reason I have posted this information is for education.

https://ourworldindata.org/human-height#increase-of-human-height-over-two-centuries

[football_not_soccer]

so the moral is get LL and feed your children properly so that no one suspects that you had LL done lol  otherwise they would ask if the dad is average why is the child short? 

[Ascending]

so the moral is get LL and feed your children properly so that no one suspects that you had LL done lol  otherwise they would ask if the dad is average why is the child short? 

Yes that's the spirit.  And pay particular attention to your children's growth spurts and ensure that diet, exercise and sleep is optimal during those periods.  Take a look at:
https://ourworldindata.org/human-height#how-do-expected-growth-trends-differ-for-boys-and-girls
Note the significance of nutrition in the first two years.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

Whilst genetics is clearly a key factor if we look at trends in height in the last century alone there have been some staggering increase in heights and this cannot be due to genetics as genetic effects are made in tiny steps and take a much much larger timescale to be evident.  For example in the past 100 years Korean women have increased in height by 20cm, Iranian men by 16.5cm./quote]

The people in those countries 100 years ago, like my Beijing LL friend who grew up in a Cambodian refugee camp, underwent severe deprivation the likes of which would have been noticed and acted upon by authorities in prosperous countries in modern times like most people here grew up in.

[a]

Nobody is seriously going to think like "Hmm his son is shorter than him, I bet he did an unnatural height increase by limb lengthening surgery!" LOL!

nobody even would assume that.

[IwannaBeTaller]

Whilst genetics is clearly a key factor if we look at trends in height in the last century alone there have been some staggering increase in heights and this cannot be due to genetics as genetic effects are made in tiny steps and take a much much larger timescale to be evident.  For example in the past 100 years Korean women have increased in height by 20cm, Iranian men by 16.5cm.

However, these are general trends and they don't necessarily explain why a particular individual is shorter or taller.  So there is no point getting depressed about our heights - after all the reason we are on this forum is to do something about it.  So stay positive.  The reason I have posted this information is for education.

https://ourworldindata.org/human-height#increase-of-human-height-over-two-centuries

Height has increased this much over the last century mainly two reasons. The first is epigenetics. Simply speaking, your lifestyle including nutrition and health will have an effect on your children even if their upbringing will be completely different. So several generations being able to grow up in good conditions, as was the case post 1945, will increase the average height (up to the genetic plateau, which is probably reached in some European countries). For an individual person, the effect of your lifestyle on your growth might be minimal. I think brothers with a lot of height difference are a great indication that this might be true.

The second is nutrition and diseases during your early childhood. If you are going hungry or have a lot of infectious diseases during your childhood, if can affect your height much more than during puberty. Seeing as most kids grow up healthy and won't go to bed hungry in the Western hemisphere, I doubt much growth can be stunted for a typical Westerner (unless you become anorexic as teenager).

[F_99]

Height has increased this much over the last century mainly two reasons. The first is epigenetics. Simply speaking, your lifestyle including nutrition and health will have an effect on your children even if their upbringing will be completely different. So several generations being able to grow up in good conditions, as was the case post 1945, will increase the average height (up to the genetic plateau, which is probably reached in some European countries). For an individual person, the effect of your lifestyle on your growth might be minimal. I think brothers with a lot of height difference are a great indication that this might be true.

The second is nutrition and diseases during your early childhood. If you are going hungry or have a lot of infectious diseases during your childhood, if can affect your height much more than during puberty. Seeing as most kids grow up healthy and won't go to bed hungry in the Western hemisphere, I doubt much growth can be stunted for a typical Westerner (unless you become anorexic as teenager).

Are you a biologist/related field?

[IwannaBeTaller]

Are you a biologist/related field?

Nope, just wrote what I gathered from reading studies/articles about studies over the years.

[..]

Height has increased this much over the last century mainly two reasons. The first is epigenetics. Simply speaking, your lifestyle including nutrition and health will have an effect on your children even if their upbringing will be completely different. So several generations being able to grow up in good conditions, as was the case post 1945, will increase the average height (up to the genetic plateau, which is probably reached in some European countries). For an individual person, the effect of your lifestyle on your growth might be minimal. I think brothers with a lot of height difference are a great indication that this might be true.

The second is nutrition and diseases during your early childhood. If you are going hungry or have a lot of infectious diseases during your childhood, if can affect your height much more than during puberty. Seeing as most kids grow up healthy and won't go to bed hungry in the Western hemisphere, I doubt much growth can be stunted for a typical Westerner (unless you become anorexic as teenager).

Sleep and depression?

[IwannaBeTaller]

Sleep and depression?

You yourself have searched for studies linking sleep to height and have found little evidence that it can truly stunt growth. Depression is an interesting topic, there are things like psychosocial short stature that can happen with extreme stress, abuse or trauma.