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[Futureller]

Wanted to know if it's a viable option out of curiosity, if after doing 8cm in femurs if it's possible to get surgery on my tibias at a later date.  I would not push my tibias like my femurs, probably just 5cm in tibias. 

Reason for so much gain in femurs (8cm) instead of something safer like 6cm, is because if I decide not to do tibias after femurs for whatever reason, I'll be happy enough having done 8cm as opposed to 6cm in femurs.  I'm 5'7.5" and 8cm in femurs would put me at 5'10.5" which will make me happy enough.

But back to my original question is tibias a possibility (5cm) to bring me to 6ft+ or is it not recommended to do tibias at all if you did 8cm femurs?

This is a hypothetical scenario and wanted to hear opinions of people who have been on these forums longer than me. 

I wouldnt just do 6cm in my femurs and stop (unless my body told me to) because in my mind anything less than 5'10.5 after LL I feel that I will be dissatisfied, IMO.  I know everyone is different and has their different heights but I feel 5'10.5" is the minimum for me personally to feel happy with my height. 

[Skyisthelimit]

Of course is possible, and your goal is considered to be in the safe limits.

[cyborg4life]

Hey Futurella yeah you could definitely do the additional 5cm as my doctor said that anything under 2inches (5cm) is safe on tibias with minimal complications. How much later were you thinking to get them done? A year or 2 years later or more?

Best of luck!

[Futureller]

I was thinking maybe doing it to be over 6'0"-6'1" after fully recovering from femurs so i guess 2 years....

But rethinking it, I did the math, and 8cm femurs would put me at 5'10 3/4" which I think will make me more tha  happy since I won't be berated for my height anymore at that height, or have a girl think I'm short. 

Plus after being am acceptable height and going through the time and money loss with the first surgery I don't think I'll wanna do another surgery.  Also I feel like I'll probably look really out of proportion being 6'1" with a 5'7 wingspan.  Plus only benefit would be i'll just attract a few more shallow girls at 6'1" as opposed to 5'11" lol, which I won't care about at that point. 

I don't think I'm gonna do it since I feel 5'10 3/4" will make me more than satisfied.  I'll say I'm 6'0" and everyone will believe me because everyone lies about their height. 

[cyborg4life]

Lol yeah man I agree if you would feel content at nearly 5'11" your desire to get an additional surgery will drop off big time. And over 5'10" and you should have no issues especially with shoes on etc. Not to mention you can also do things like build up muscle which will further decrease any potential height comments.

[cam007]

Wanted to know if it's a viable option out of curiosity, if after doing 8cm in femurs if it's possible to get surgery on my tibias at a later date.  I would not push my tibias like my femurs, probably just 5cm in tibias. 

Reason for so much gain in femurs (8cm) instead of something safer like 6cm, is because if I decide not to do tibias after femurs for whatever reason, I'll be happy enough having done 8cm as opposed to 6cm in femurs.  I'm 5'7.5" and 8cm in femurs would put me at 5'10.5" which will make me happy enough.

But back to my original question is tibias a possibility (5cm) to bring me to 6ft+ or is it not recommended to do tibias at all if you did 8cm femurs?

This is a hypothetical scenario and wanted to hear opinions of people who have been on these forums longer than me. 

I wouldnt just do 6cm in my femurs and stop (unless my body told me to) because in my mind anything less than 5'10.5 after LL I feel that I will be dissatisfied, IMO.  I know everyone is different and has their different heights but I feel 5'10.5" is the minimum for me personally to feel happy with my height.

Bro I HIGHLY disagree with your last comment.  If you go in with an “anything less” is dissatisfaction. You’re looking at it wrong.  It should be looked at - basically what cyborg stated.

What’s the most gain with MINIMAL complications.  And it seems the majority TOP doctors who are well respected and in ANY country , state 7cm femurs and 6 tibia as MAX.  Which means it’s pushing it. Regardless of how far the nail can go.

So if you want that 3 in height. An internal rod on femurs technically goes to 8.  You do the 7.5cm there and you’d be okay BUT the safest distance area apparently based on studies was 6.5cm on femurs and 5cm on tibia.  It doesn’t make sense to get a height just to be crippled and disabled.

Pay attn to a lot of REAL diaries on here. Everyone past 7cm has BIG issues. Under 6cm had issues but was EASILY rectified/restore to within 90% or more of pre -ll.

I think you need to focus on how to get to 5’10.5 SAFELY. And not let these forums hype you up. B/c a lot of ppl hyping you ain’t even done a consult yet lol.

Be easy. And hope you safely get what you want

[Futureller]

I agree with your above warning and will look more into doing less cm on my femur for better recovery.  I need to be as healthy as possibly realistically anyway since I make money with construction.  Not having a full recovery will hurt me more than anyone else here since my job is extremely physical and i'm not sitting at a desk all day. 

[cam007]

I agree with your above warning and will look more into doing less cm on my femur for better recovery.  I need to be as healthy as possibly realistically anyway since I make money with construction.  Not having a full recovery will hurt me more than anyone else here since my job is extremely physical and i'm not sitting at a desk all day.

Yea, At the end of the day it’s up to you. But I think people really over look the “soft tissue  and muscle” part of lengthening.   That’s why I’m trying to see the studies now.  The bone will  definitely grow. But it seems the reason people are hurt after lengthening isn’t likely  the bones, it’s the elongating of tissues and stretching something beyond its limits.

The top doctors put limits and almost all of them agree and within that limit there are VERY LITTLE complications and when there is , it is handled.
Almost everyone On this forum decides to go over that limit then claim if they get to 80% that’s successful. - no the fck it’s not lol. 

I think it’s smarter to say The goal is to get taller while still being able to do everything you did before at or near the same level.

And most top doctors will say that is attainable within the safe limits/zone based on the convos I’ve had.

But like I said it’s a personal choice and I’m not trying to scare you. I’m saying , don’t just rush for the maximum or let people who haven’t done even a consult tell you , you’re gonna be fine.

Shoot, I just made this account last week ( long time lurker- but made an account since I have a date planned to do the surgery). - so even listening to me , double check the facts to see if I’m lying you know.

[BetzLandLiberator]

Yea, At the end of the day it’s up to you. But I think people really over look the “soft tissue  and muscle” part of lengthening.   That’s why I’m trying to see the studies now.  The bone will  definitely grow. But it seems the reason people are hurt after lengthening isn’t likely  the bones, it’s the elongating of tissues and stretching something beyond its limits.

You need to read more studies - the body grows extra soft issues, it doesn't just elongate what you have. It's similar to weight lifting, where you break the muscle fibers and then new ones grow. Otherwise even 6cm on the femurs would be too much.

Remember that some dwarfs do 15-20cm on one limb - that would be impossible without growing new soft tissue.

[short]

muscles aren't the problem, tendons are!

[cyborg4life]

muscles aren't the problem, tendons are!

I second that! Tendons get much tighter than muscles. Stretching will be your best friend as well as staying within safe limits according to the doctor's consult recommendations

[cam007]

You need to read more studies - the body grows extra soft issues, it doesn't just elongate what you have. It's similar to weight lifting, where you break the muscle fibers and then new ones grow. Otherwise even 6cm on the femurs would be too much.

Remember that some dwarfs do 15-20cm on one limb - that would be impossible without growing new soft tissue.

Ummm NO dwarf does 20cm in one segment and functions even remotely close to normal. And also I’ve looked at a ton of studies and I’ve never heard of anyone doing 20cm on a segment wtf That’s a lie.

It’s not impossible you’re simply stretching the body past its limits that’s why people be in pain.

Also soft tissue is NOT naturally grown . Any extra soft tissue that is produced usually brings fear of cancerous becuase that’s what happens majority of time.

What studies can you provide that more soft tissue is created as we lengthen. Enlighten me. Becuase as I stated I’m reading studies and not just shooting out large numbers of cm just becuase I want to be taller.

I want to be taller , and functioning at the most normal level there is. And world class doctors provided the range for that already and the safest seems to be under 7cm femurs  under 6cm tibias regardless of how long nails stretch.

Now people can and WILL go over the limit. And I guess they’ll either disappear or become one of the posters of knee and leg pain and unable to do half the things they could before.

No thanks to that.

[BetzLandLiberator]

Also soft tissue is NOT naturally grown . Any extra soft tissue that is produced usually brings fear of cancerous becuase that’s what happens majority of time.

You're absolutely wrong. The body produces new muscle. Otherwise we (people that actually did LL) would be crippled. It takes some time, that's why it takes months to recover our athletic ability.

What studies can you provide that more soft tissue is created as we lengthen. Enlighten me. Becuase as I stated I’m reading studies and not just shooting out large numbers of cm just becuase I want to be taller.

I won't do your homework for you. Enough to say that there is plenty of academic papers about this online. Check some studies done in dogs and rabbits.

I would have NEVER done LL if that wasn't the case (that LL produces new muscle tissue). Before I did my LL in 2012 I read almost every single academic paper from the most well known LL specialists at the time. LL creates new muscle, period.

[cam007]

You're absolutely wrong. The body produces new muscle. Otherwise we (people that actually did LL) would be crippled. It takes some time, that's why it takes months to recover our athletic ability.

I won't do your homework for you. Enough to say that there is plenty of academic papers about this online. Check some studies done in dogs and rabbits.

I would have NEVER done LL if that wasn't the case (that LL produces new muscle tissue). Before I did my LL in 2012 I read almost every single academic paper from the most well known LL specialists at the time. LL creates new muscle, period.

I hate people who are ignorant and quick to try to reply  . YOU’RE making a claim To MY comment. I asked you to prove your theory. I didn’t ask you to do any hw for me. I literally stated I read studies.  So Congrats I also did my “hw” .  Nonetheless I stated soft tissue does not grow, and I’m not particularly wrong as the majority doesnt.  Most soft tissue expansions shone in studies have been declared as mass / or cancerous in almost all that I’ve seen.
NONETHELESS You focused on muscles In your reply . I never even mentioned muscles as being an issue  but everything else.   And it seems others have mention muscles not even being a real problem ( and I haven’t heard of that being a problem either) outside of waste from externals.

So idk what point you’re trying to make. But if you want to go hard and then tell others to “do their hw” you probably shouldn’t reply.

[Polvorón]

So... If I stretch my ears they will become cancerous? 

[cam007]

So... If I stretch my ears they will become cancerous? 

Idk dude last I check (depending on area ) the ear is cartilage. :shrugS:

You are always welcome to try on yourself and come back with reports if you want lol.

[TheAlchemist]

Bro I HIGHLY disagree with your last comment.  If you go in with an “anything less” is dissatisfaction. You’re looking at it wrong.  It should be looked at - basically what cyborg stated.

What’s the most gain with MINIMAL complications.  And it seems the majority TOP doctors who are well respected and in ANY country , state 7cm femurs and 6 tibia as MAX.  Which means it’s pushing it. Regardless of how far the nail can go.

So if you want that 3 in height. An internal rod on femurs technically goes to 8.  You do the 7.5cm there and you’d be okay BUT the safest distance area apparently based on studies was 6.5cm on femurs and 5cm on tibia.  It doesn’t make sense to get a height just to be crippled and disabled.

Pay attn to a lot of REAL diaries on here. Everyone past 7cm has BIG issues. Under 6cm had issues but was EASILY rectified/restore to within 90% or more of pre -ll.

I think you need to focus on how to get to 5’10.5 SAFELY. And not let these forums hype you up. B/c a lot of ppl hyping you ain’t even done a consult yet lol.

Be easy. And hope you safely get what you want

Can you share the data around femur > 7 cm is high risk of big issues? I recently did 8 cm on femurs at Paley, and met several other patients who did the same, and I think 8 cm on femur with a healthy recovery (at or near pre LL athletic ability) is very much possible. This is in the context of the average adult, not individuals who are world class athletes who make a living off of competitive sports......the average guy or gal who walks daily, may go for a casual jog or run, may play a light pickup game of b ball every so often, etc.......

There are a lot of other factors at play, for example, the patients starting height. I would argue that a taller guy like myself (starting height 5'9) doing 8 cm, has the same, or even less risk, than a shorter guy (e.g. starting height 5'4) who is doing 7 cm femurs simply based on relative length %.

Overall, I agree with your message that LLers should balance and optimize height gains and functionality, but I don't think its as simple as saying > 7 cm = big issues, there are many variables at play (e.g. starting height, age, muscle mass, natural flexibility, lifestyle, etc.)

[BetzLandLiberator]

I hate people who are ignorant and quick to try to reply  . YOU’RE making a claim To MY comment. I asked you to prove your theory.

Don't be retarded. it's not my theory. It's something well observed in different studies. It's not my fault that you are so dumb that you can't find those studies with google. You can literally find them in the FIRST page of google search if you search correctly.

I didn’t ask you to do any hw for me. I literally stated I read studies.  So Congrats I also did my “hw” .  Nonetheless I stated soft tissue does not grow, and I’m not particularly wrong as the majority doesnt.  Most soft tissue expansions shone in studies have been declared as mass / or cancerous in almost all that I’ve seen.

Nops, again you are TOTALLY wrong. Stop spreading this nonsense here.

[California2]

Getting back to your original question--is it possible to do one segment (tibias or femurs) at some point in time after you lengthen the other segment.

Of course.

Please note that when persons talk about "centimeters" for safe lengthening, these people are generally misguided.  There is no set "centimeters" of lengthening considered safe because each person's leg segment length is not the same.

Consequently, the correct way to talk about lengthening is as a percentage of segment length.  It is almost universally considered that lengthening 10% of the length of the segment is safe. 

If your tibia is 40 cm; then, it is generally considered safe to lengthen it by 4 cm. 

That is not to say that a greater percentage of lengthening cannot be successfully achieved; however, the risk rate for complications also increases.  Most reputable surgeons are OK with 15% if 10% is achieved without complications.

After 15%; then, you are into a case-by-case scenario.

Like you, I did not want to lengthen another segment if I could get enough length in one segment.  I was able to get to 24% and feel that I hit an absolute maximum for my segment.  However, because I pushed things this way, my recovery time was long and the process is slow but I am getting it done without any significant complications.

If you decide to do a second segment; then, you should know that your ability to lengthen the second segment is diminished because the first lengthening stretches your entire leg.  Consequently, the same amount of stretch is not available for the second segment.  Waiting in time for the second segment can help you get some of your stretch back but your second surgery cannot ever be as stretchy as your first surgery.

[cam007]

Getting back to your original question--is it possible to do one segment (tibias or femurs) at some point in time after you lengthen the other segment.

Of course.

Please note that when persons talk about "centimeters" for safe lengthening, these people are generally misguided.  There is no set "centimeters" of lengthening considered safe because each person's leg segment length is not the same.

Consequently, the correct way to talk about lengthening is as a percentage of segment length.  It is almost universally considered that lengthening 10% of the length of the segment is safe. 

If your tibia is 40 cm; then, it is generally considered safe to lengthen it by 4 cm. 

That is not to say that a greater percentage of lengthening cannot be successfully achieved; however, the risk rate for complications also increases.  Most reputable surgeons are OK with 15% if 10% is achieved without complications.

After 15%; then, you are into a case-by-case scenario.

Like you, I did not want to lengthen another segment if I could get enough length in one segment.  I was able to get to 24% and feel that I hit an absolute maximum for my segment.  However, because I pushed things this way, my recovery time was long and the process is slow but I am getting it done without any significant complications.

If you decide to do a second segment; then, you should know that your ability to lengthen the second segment is diminished because the first lengthening stretches your entire leg.  Consequently, the same amount of stretch is not available for the second segment.  Waiting in time for the second segment can help you get some of your stretch back but your second surgery cannot ever be as stretchy as your first surgery.

Exactly .
10% to be about the safest and 15% at the most. Universally.
Majority of people in the forum are under 5’8 so it’s
Imposible thst a 7-8cm per seg is within safe limits .


But as you said a lot of people go over that and say becuase we can. On the outer we can. And the body will heal it as much as it can. But the LTR are evident.


My question to you (whether you want to or not or care to ) -  can you do everything pre LL within 85-95 range of what you could do before.
That’s what I want to know , Becuase all studies say athletic ability significantly drops when past the 15% upper limit of safe zone and persistent complications exist after.   

Have you healed differently?

[tiggy]

Exactly .
10% to be about the safest and 15% at the most. Universally.
Majority of people in the forum are under 5’8 so it’s
Imposible thst a 7-8cm per seg is within safe limits .


But as you said a lot of people go over that and say becuase we can. On the outer we can. And the body will heal it as much as it can. But the LTR are evident.

Cam007,

I am not one to argue with ignorant people on this forum, because well, it's really hard to kill stupidity, but seeing how you are really spreading false information all over this thread, I have decided to give you a piece of my mind.  You appear as someone who hasnt done LL and yet you make statements as if you know first hand what it's like to lengthen above 7 cm. As the Alchemist said (he, unlike you, has actually done LL) and myself included have done above 7cm with the most reputable doctors in the world. And dr Paley and dr Rozbruch have allowed us to go beyond 7 cm. I have lengthened 8cm on femurs. I have had absolutely no complications, except for some numbness in my shins that I predict will take a while to heal for me personally. There are guys who have lengthened 8cm and their numbness has gone away even faster than mine. I haven't tried running or jumping yet because my dr hasn't cleared me for this but I am sure I will be able to do so soon enough because I'm feeling more and more normal with each passing day. Yes, this surgery isn't easy to recover from and that's a fact. But saying it's "impossible" to heal normally if you go past 7cm is an asinine statement to make when there are legitimate diaries on this forum proving otherwise. For you to sit there and argue with guys who have actually done it and try to convince all others reading that you are correct and we are wrong is just plain ignorant.  So perhaps before advising others to do their homework and read "REAL" diaries on this forum, you should heed that same advice. Good luck to you in your journey should you ever actually get this surgery done instead of "educating" others. Take care

[Kal el]

Futurecaller check taller in kievs diary....you will be very happy to know something.

[Movie]

cam007: you need to further educate yourself in this matter.

Futureller: I myself was thinking of doing the same thing and mind you I'm able to afford the second surgery with out hurting my pockets a lot, but I opted to just heal from the 8 CMs gained in femurs and call it a day, the extra surgery gains seem like more of a burden/bad investment now than a gain in my eyes, both physically and economically. but at 5'7.5 you're in the height bracket that I think has the max benefit of a 3 inch gain in height the 5'6, 5'7 guys go from short to average or just above average, that's HUGE honestly! and if you're overall a healthy happy guy then LL will enhance that granting you don't have any major complications and heal well. I'm happy with my results and I'm a happy height dysphoria survivor, it's night and day bro from feeling like one of the shortest if not the shortest guy everywhere you go to suddenly looking at most guys eye to eye level, the 6ft guys don't seem so far apart now and taller and 95% of females everywhere now (at least for me 5'6-5'9)... I can say securely it was all worth it.

[cyborg4life]

Hey Movie, how did you like doing the surgery with Dr. M? Also I agree, I always wanted to be taller but after I balanced my height discrepancy a lot of my "personal pain" was fixed. Will I go for another round in the future? Possibly. But it will be after I finish my natural bodybuilding career as there's no rush my itch was scratched if you will. I feel after you get sufficient length on surgery 1 take your time, reassess your quality of life and make an honest decision with yourself

[Movie]

It was great, at the time he was the best priced Strydes and local to me so I was healing at the comfort of my home with friends and family surrounding me and supporting me, I know that was a huge contributing factor to my successful rehabilitation. Yes, Dr. M told me the same thing, I was ready to drop the 140K for both surgeries but he when he said I can only get 6 cms in femur and 4 cm tibia max if we do them 3 weeks apart, I was like no man I want 8 and 6 ... so he said, "ok let's do femurs first, see how you feel, then if you want to do tibias after we'll do them in 6 months once you heal", but now I feel good with the 8 cm's gained I don't feel inferior physically to ANYBODY now at 5'9 people can't call me short really anymore, I'm happy where I'm at now.

[determination]

Wanted to know if it's a viable option out of curiosity, if after doing 8cm in femurs if it's possible to get surgery on my tibias at a later date.  I would not push my tibias like my femurs, probably just 5cm in tibias. 

Yes it is possible and I met a few patients having had more than 1 segment.
Those I met had tibia done first with externals and having femur with nails after but as far as I understand it is possible to do the femur first and tibia later either with nail or externals.
 
Under Dr Pili I met achondroplasia patient having had Femur, Tibia reaching up to 40 cm and having also Upper Arms done.
https://drpiliortopedico.it/en/trattamento-acondroplasia-achondroplasia-surgery/
Consider achondroplasia patients are very "stretchable".
Don't get me wrong, it does not mean you should aim to have 40 cm as it is not advisable if you are doing it for aesthetic reasons.