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[iwontallow]

There's a concerning trend among users in this forum. You're so desperate to get taller that you ignore the negative and focus on the positive. Of course there are more or less positive outcomes in LL but there are people who die, people who won't walk again and people with life-long complications. You are so desperate to get taller that you ignore them but they exist and they orm a LARGE group. Beware.

[amigos]

People are reluctant to admit that   happens because they think   won't happen to them that way. Human mind is so stupid.

[iwontallow]

People are reluctant to admit that   happens because they think   won't happen to them that way. Human mind is so stupid.

You see this very often. They won't admit they can be the unlucky one until it happens. STUPID.

[lemonade311]

There's a concerning trend among users in this forum. You're so desperate to get taller that you ignore the negative and focus on the positive. Of course there are more or less positive outcomes in LL but there are people who die, people who won't walk again and people with life-long complications. You are so desperate to get taller that you ignore them but they exist and they orm a LARGE group. Beware.

Post evidence then. There have been 0 deaths/amputations from the top doctors.

[zakika]

I was thinking, if it is a real trend, or just CLL coming into the scope of many people (mainly after internal, safer approach - precise - is available). However I don't think, and would never call anyone STUPID, because of being - overly - dedicated to this type of surgery, only would be necessary a psychological assessment before IMO to filter out unrealistic, not objective decisions. Usually when someone spares money (mainly for long-long) years, sacrifices private life, family temporarily and makes thoughts for long months, reads diaries, understands the possible consequences, plus before the operation (in an ideal case) there is a serious anatomical, physiological assessment of candidacy from the medical part. I'm an MD as well, and considering it in the near future and I can see quite objectives the cons and pros. It is still a matter of bilateral personal decision considering both sides are using their best mind (normally the doctor won't risks his 20+ years for 10-20k, but the patients side should be supported with psych in my opinion). Long story short I wouldn't think there is a trend, only with the technical advancements people realise, they could change a deeply consuming (otherwise a clear mind wouldn't consider an invasive operation as LL) psychological burden. I think the main aim of a forum like this should be to inform each other objectively, and give support, not to panic, or frighten anyone. There are already statistics of the relative- and absolute contraindications, plus %-chances of PE, nerve sheat inflexibility, direct nerve damage, superficial- or intramedullary infection, possible joint destruction (however this one seems quite rare if done correctly), anaesthesia-induced complications etc... People should measure all these, and make an objective decision, this forum is here to easy it out, or warn against. And one more thing: trying to filter people, who are present for some possible benefit from an emerging industry..

[Johnson1111]

Pathetic societal standards are to blame for every single complication anyone receives during their time getting the surgery. This is what everything stems from. This is what causes the people to take 2 years off of work and sitting in a chair in India getting their legs butchered because they cannot afford to go anywhere else.

[ZUCC420]

@johnson1111 Biological too, don't blame everything on societal standards, those didn't come from nowhere.

[zakika]

Indeed. From the technical aspect the surgery itself isn't a complicated one (not only because broken femur surgery -even if it is usually unilateral - is not very uncommon), the hard part comes after that, when your own biological response capacity comes into play (with a meticulous rehab, and close following from the doctors side of course paying attention not to "overshoot" in any aspect). If the doctor has done a lot of limb lengthening (not CLL, as they are far the minority for all doctors, maybe except from Paley recently) intervention before, and you follow a conservative (not overdone) approach, your own body is the key for optimal timed healing. You can and should stop, if your body gives signs for a long period (temporary pain is part of the game). According to this, everyone undergoing this type of surgery has to have a stamina plus a good understanding of his/hers own body.

[Johnson1111]

@johnson1111 Biological too, don't blame everything on societal standards, those didn't come from nowhere.

Society reinforces them despite the fact that they're outdated. There are alot of biological things people think that society tries to reprogram peoples minds against. Height and stature is a last priority despite impacting a larger number of people.

I'm not begging and pleading for society to suddenly change i'm just calling a spade a spade.

[zakika]

Ok, I misinterpreted your conversation, the origins are there, and are far deeper, than societal drive. This is the reason, why psychology alone is usually not effective (depending on each case).

[ZUCC420]

@zakika Exactly, and yes society reinforces them, but there is an innateness to it. When I interact with people taller than me, I subconsciously consider them superior, physically that is. That feeling was there before my neurosis but now it's more noticeable, and I realize that no therapy will change my perspective other than growing taller to at least an average height where I'm not too tall and neither too short.

[zakika]

These are evolutionary core motivs, however societal (I would rather call them economical) influences won't help either . But the main origin is definitely not explicable with societal provocation. It is important to understand to be able to analyse a person's motivation, and not to judge immediately (all the media can be judged though . It is also essential to distinguish between inner and outer drive (real imbalance between how someone sees him/herself, and feels in his body and the pressure from society, environment), and to measure the ratio between these factors. That's partly the reason why I would find important to evaluate a patient psychologically (and it all comes down to aesthetic/plastic interventions). Not an easy q, won't be a solution for that soon I think, a forum could at least warn, if someone doesn't measure the risks, and has no realistic standpoint.

[Johnson1111]

@zakika Exactly, and yes society reinforces them, but there is an innateness to it. When I interact with people taller than me, I subconsciously consider them superior, physically that is. That feeling was there before my neurosis but now it's more noticeable, and I realize that no therapy will change my perspective other than growing taller to at least an average height where I'm not too tall and neither too short.

When I interact with most people taller than me, I know that they are weaker both physically and mentally than me, but biologically they're going to be considered the opposite and also subconsciously think the opposite as well. It creates resentment and envy in my mind for inferior people that I should never think twice about.

The fact that society reinforces those inaccurate, outdated beliefs is infuriating. And don't us dare say anything obligatory towards homosxxuals when biologically most of us are geared to think it's gross and not be into it. But society has proven that these things being overlooked can become mainstream.

Therefor LL levels the playing field. To go through LL it's tons of money, time wasted and risk factors.

So large feelings of resentment set in either way regardless of the decision made.

We all have our own psychological problems as it pertains to wanting to get LL knowing the risks. It usually depends on our life experiences which problems we develop first. ALL of them are justified if you're below 5'9"-5'10" whereas NONE of them are if you're above.


The fact that someone in the Netherlands can bxtch and complain about how they're 6'1" when everyone else is 6'4" there is absolutely ridiculous. Boo hoo. It's the equivalent to being born in Beverly Hills from a family who only owns 3 Ferraris instead of the 5 all of your friends have. It is not justified get LL from an objective prospective if statistics and logic are used for a 6'1" person.

[ZUCC420]

@johnson1111 Do you think if tons of men congregate and start protesting against heightism initially starting a movement, society will acknowledge the problems? Media starts pushing shortmen into protagonist roles, twitter starts hash tagging #short&proud, #proudmanlet etc. Will this hypothetical situation ameliorate the problems short men face or will it tend to do the opposite? IMO it will exacerbate the situation even more, but you have to start somewhere right?

[Johnson1111]

@johnson1111 Do you think if tons of men congregate and start protesting against heightism initially starting a movement, society will acknowledge the problems? Media starts pushing shortmen into protagonist roles, twitter starts hash tagging #short&proud, #proudmanlet etc. Will this hypothetical situation ameliorate the problems short men face or will it tend to do the opposite? IMO it will exacerbate the situation even more, but you have to start somewhere right?

Sadly I agree with the outlined scenario and it may be even worse. The mocking would be unbearable and hypocritical, incompetent snarky remarks like "Short men are mad when X (Whatever psychological problem is trending more at the time trans, pansxxual etc) are going through X, Y, Z,  "

My point here is just to point out that the risks don't matter to most of us and we've accepted them. It's not that we don't understand them...It's that they're not enough to deter us.

Psychological rumination about how our height is going to continue to negatively effect our life to the point where it takes people to the brink of insanity is essentially burning in hell long before any FE or blood clot from an incompetent surgeon could possibly take you there.

I sound extreme but am I really? Everyone reading is willing to butcher their legs for a few inches or less. I shouldn't be judged for saying the reality..

But I do think an eventual conclusion in the future that things like height don't matter (Especially since we don't hunt anymore for our food or do any of the things that made height valuable in the first place) would make more room and time for worthwhile pursuits from worthy men of shorter stature. That could only be a positive.

I also do think the learning curve of the movement would be harsh on shorter men but something like that would actually eventually work. Things get engrained into peoples's heads very quickly once they're told these things over and over again by society and on social media. Especially if it's logical and reasonable like this is. Whether it's the best method to go about doing it, is another question entirely.

[zakika]

#Proudmanlet - LMFAO. Guys, the whole mindset has a complex drive (even if in Holland avg height is 6,1), but if one's own motivation is mainly inner (mainly, not fully), our physical, mental, and financial background is optimal, we just have to support each other on the way. fk society 

[zakika]

Johnson, sorry for being the d..head, but evolutionary patterns can't just be changed, because it would be right or fair. Maybe I'm redpilling, but I think it sounds like to change on the situation more feminine women should be considered as average feminine, so there wouldn't be inequality in this manner. It is not a coincidence men look at women differently according to specific traits and vice versa.

But the risks should be ruled out finally by professionals (doctors, psychologists) in an ideal case, period.

[ZUCC420]

Proud manlet is a manlet that is 5'5" with a 9" penor believe it or not, and in the distant future I believe genetic engineering will resolve most if not all of the issues humans face today that are purely biological. 

[zakika]

Tissue engineering is already a viable approach nowadays, I'm not sure in Chinese labs there is no current solution for it, it is not a utopia in 2050 there will be running people 6,5 feet tall with an IQ of 200. But the current reality is a long, painful way to increase couple of inches, only along realistic goals.

[Johnson1111]

Yes but we fight against biological instincts every single day to conform to societal standards and ways of living through indirect or direct forms of programming. It's just become the norm.

People should be convinced that they should feel guilty for their biological beliefs even if they cannot control them as it pertains to heightism. THEY should become depressed about that, not us for being shorter when we cannot control it. In that scenario, it's actually more morally correct than what's going on now. The perpetrator now feels guilty/depressed, rather than the victim.

Anyway, it's alot of speculation and will probably never happen. LL is the only option or a lucky growth spurt.

[ZUCC420]

@zakika You mean limited goals, I think LL is a single piece of the puzzle, in order for it to be complete we need the other 2 pieces. That is arm lengthening including both the forearm and humerus and torso lengthening. But I think by then we would presumably be able to reopen the growth plates.

[iwontallow]

Post evidence then. There have been 0 deaths/amputations from the top doctors.

FYI


http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3922.0

Who died after LL? These are the examples I have found in the boards.

- Catagni's patient died from fat embolism.

- MasterHY is probably dead according to his friends. He had his surgery with Betz and then went home with the best doctors in the world and he died after his 4th surgery.

- Guy in Barcelona guesthouse died after femur fracture (not Monegal's patient)

- Young girl died in OR after LL and plaster removal and her organs disappeared in Barcelona so the authopsia couldn't be conducted.

- African Girl died in India after LL.

You can add Monegal patient who committed suicide (6) and the Korean star who died after surgery (7).


About 1)

I don't know of any stats, but I did come across a report where Dr Catagni reported a patient death during an Achilles tendon lengthening.

About 2)

There is no final proof that he died, however there is no reason to believe he is still alive either. As already mentioned i was in contact with him and there was no reason for him to stop answering me. He wanted to sue Betz and i promised to help him.
In his 4th surgery he got his 4th nail plus a bone graft for his left leg. The bone was taken from his hip. It was a big surgery because they had to fill a 10cm gap. He wrote to me :“ I am recovering from the surgery, it was pretty intense, I had a lot of pain and my leg seemed to be reacting a bit strange to the bone graft.  I also have a lot of discomfort in the hip area where the bone graft was done, and I think it will be awhile before get somewhere with all of this.”

There was much more in his email. Shortly afterwards he stopped replying to me. That was in May 2015. So i'm quite convinced he died.

About 3)

Not LL patient it seem.

2) I said there was a patient who died in the guesthouse and MM had a complication again. Was it false? No. No defamation then. It's true there was a guy in the guesthouse who died from a femur fracture and that Musicmaker had a new complication. When people said the guy who died was not a Monegal patient I accepted that because I don't know more details than that but I cannot accept new lies about Musicmaker because I know she is having complications and went to hospital because people from the guesthouse confirmed this.

About 4)

I talked with this girl's family and I can tell this casw is real, BUT she didn't die because of the LL procedure itself. There was a negligence measuring the dose of anesthesia, and she died from a heart attack (she was 11 y.o.). And no, Monegal was never involved into this incident since he stopped working with that medical team before.

About 5)

Some people die after LL surgery or become crippled because they are mislead by unethical doctors.

Young people whose lives have been destroyed

https://www.naij.com/655056-indian-doctors-killed-nigerian-girl-india.html

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2016/01/they-let-my-daughter-die-as-i-watched-in-horror-mother-of-uniabuja-graduate/

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/Appoint-JNAFAU-VC-by-June/articleshow/51917509.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/Doctors-in-dock-over-Hyderabad-techies-height-surgery/articleshow/51721493.cms

About 6)

It's a hard pill to swallow. My doctor told me it would be easy but he lied. If I had known, I'd have never done it. I didn't get complications but the pain was so strong I couldn't imagine. The wheelchair makes you feel stagnant and useless. I used it for months but some patients have used it for years. Life as a cripple is sad. I don't know how those patients managed to keep suicidal thoughts away (one of them commited suicide though)

This is so incredibly sad. Dr. Monegal causes the problems with his horrible surgical technique, then he can't fix the problems, so the patient feels helpless and takes their own life.

About 7)

Today I saw a news. A Korean wanted to be a star but had surgery because of height restrictions. He had a high fever shortly after the operation, but the hospital gave him only a few pills. He was taken to hospital the next day. The treatment was declared dead after five days.
The autopsy results were caused by the stenosis of pulmonary valve. The location of the operation was in Seoul. No specific hospitals or doctors were announced.

I only have Chinese news links. Because I'm not Korean. I just asked Dr. Li’s assistant. It was determined that this tragedy is true. It happened in July 2016. It was exposed by the media a few days ago.

Note: The accident doctor is not Dr Li

http://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1600511972162017723&wfr=spider&for=pc

YOU HAVE ALSO PATIENTS WITH TERRIBLE COMPLICATIONS THAT LAST YEARS LIKE MUSICMAKER (MONEGAL) OR UNICORN888 (GUICHET). MUSICMAKER WAS ABOUT TO DIE TOO,

I heard that Musicmaker was about to die too in one of the surgeries. She had a very bad reaction to anesthesia and blood loss. Other people developped blood clots. They are very dangerous. These patients didn't die but death is a risk you have to face with this surgery. Doctors who underplay risks should be discarded as options for LL.

[zakika]

Yes, tissue engineering (genetically, or else) will solve all these issues. Currently arm lengthening, and torso lengthening theoretically - for reaching ideal body ratio - would be neccessary, not to mention femur/tibia-fibula ratio. This is the reason every patient has to be considered differently according to unique antropometric measures. According to the recent, logical standpoint (taking a caucasian body  inside an average range in body ratio) above 10 cm (femur) lengthening there is no need to to tibias, over it tibia has to be touched (however Dr Pili thinks differently, what I don't consider a good standpoint). What humerus+radius-ulna concerns Russian surgeons did it in extreme lengthening processes, I personally wouldn't do it.

[zakika]

It would be good to see the big picture: gender, age, nail, MD, physical, mental stage etc...These datas are a bit blurry to me, don't get me wrong, I don't intend to mitigate the risk of such an intervention, but the list as itself is only able to create a false picture. I would prefer to see the cases more detailed. I can bring an example to clear it: there was a study with over 200 patient who underwent limb lengthening in the last years (exact number I can't bring). They measured the exact number of infections (as the most common complication), and intramedullary infection (the more serious trait). There was 4 of these complications, and all 4 hat originated from external approach (however people would think it is usually caused by intramedullary nails). With precise nails (that is in use for years) not in 3rd world countries there was no death as I know of, please correct me, if I'm mistaken. Just to be able to draw some conclusion.

[amigos]

FYI


http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3922.0

You can add Monegal patient who committed suicide (6) and the Korean star who died after surgery (7).


About 1)

About 2)

About 3)

Not LL patient it seem.

About 4)


About 5)

About 6)

About 7)

YOU HAVE ALSO PATIENTS WITH TERRIBLE COMPLICATIONS THAT LAST YEARS LIKE MUSICMAKER (MONEGAL) OR UNICORN888 (GUICHET). MUSICMAKER WAS ABOUT TO DIE TOO,

It would be good to see the big picture: gender, age, nail, MD, physical, mental stage etc...These datas are a bit blurry to me, don't get me wrong, I don't intend to mitigate the risk of such an intervention, but the list as itself is only able to create a false picture. I would prefer to see the cases more detailed. I can bring an example to clear it: there was a study with over 200 patient who underwent limb lengthening in the last years (exact number I can't bring). They measured the exact number of infections (as the most common complication), and intramedullary infection (the more serious trait). There was 4 of these complications, and all 4 hat originated from external approach (however people would think it is usually caused by intramedullary nails). With precise nails (that is in use for years) not in 3rd world countries there was no death as I know of, please correct me, if I'm mistaken. Just to be able to draw some conclusion.

Complications happen. I know some cases. The list doesn't give a false picture. Doctors create a false picture when they say they don't have complications or blame poor patients.

[zakika]

You're right, it doesn't give any picture. We should see exact numbers, and details. Who claimed complications doesn't happen (even for a local anaesthesia intervention as well)? I'm out for now, I think anyone should use his/hers common sense, and read real papers (pubmed) as well. Do your own research, and talk to doctors with good reputation. At the end it comes down to your gut feeling (based on evidence, and well based knowledge).

[Android]

I don't recall much sugarcoating, plenty of people chime in on new user threads about how it's an arduous process. We sometimes share filmed operations, and those definitely get the message across that it's no walk in the park.

[notatroll]

I don't recall much sugarcoating, plenty of people chime in on new user threads about how it's an arduous process. We sometimes share filmed operations, and those definitely get the message across that it's no walk in the park.

Doctors sugarcoat very often.  My doctor was a good example. He said it was an easy process. He said if his patients got complications it was the patient's fault. When you get the surgery you realize it isn't like that. If you're lucky you will get knee pain and arthritis like me. If you're unlucky you will die, commit suicide in despair or suffer inmensely in your wheelchair for years and having countless surgeries like my friends.

[myloginacct]

We all have our own psychological problems as it pertains to wanting to get LL knowing the risks. It usually depends on our life experiences which problems we develop first. ALL of them are justified if you're below 5'9"-5'10" whereas NONE of them are if you're above.

The fact that someone in the Netherlands can bxtch and complain about how they're 6'1" when everyone else is 6'4" there is absolutely ridiculous. Boo hoo. It's the equivalent to being born in Beverly Hills from a family who only owns 3 Ferraris instead of the 5 all of your friends have. It is not justified get LL from an objective prospective if statistics and logic are used for a 6'1" person.

To be fair, that's how it feels to me when I see anyone 5'10 complaining about their height.

Anything from 177cm and up (just under 5'10) is tall to me... I don't really care if it feels short in the tallest country in the world (though I understand it). 175cm (5'9) is also in no way short. At 177cm, your proportions matter way more than your height. To be a 177cm wide-shouldered guy with naturally high body mass and athletic proportions (i.e. good shoulder-to-waist ratio), or be 3cm taller (5'11) but have weak, narrow shoulders, trouble putting on weight, and be a slenderman? The choice to me is obvious.

[Johnson1111]

If you're lucky you will get knee pain and arthritis like me. If you're unlucky you will die, commit suicide in despair or suffer inmensely in your wheelchair for years and having countless surgeries like my friends.

Scare tactics. The worst case scenario's are very real however the best case scenarios are far better than having arthritis and constant knee pain. Having a higher risk of arthritis is realistic and not too uncommon, but GETTING and HAVING rapidly accelerated arthritis as a result of LL is rare.

I wouldn't question you if you just posted proof.

[zakika]

Totally agree.