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First off. I know that height neurosis isn't 100% curable. If you are short or even average height in some cases, and pedisposed to neuroticism, negative thoughts will constantly cross your mind, but I think that there is a way to overcome the fear mode survival instinct by laughing at shortcomings.

I used to freak out about my tiny 7" girl hands but once I though that it is hilarious that I have small hands, my neuroticism is basically gone.

I have used the same approach with height, and notice that a lot more girls look at me and smile because I don't look like I take myself seriously anymore. That bitter angry look as a short guy will repel girls 10x more than the height.

Also, as my shrink told me, morbid curiosity should be avoided at all costs. This has helped my confidence greatly. No searches for:

"Would you date a short guy?"
"Do women prefer tall guys"
"What's the average height for a man?"
"Has height increased over time?"...

Keep the amygdala at Bay dammit.

Just some food for thought.

Namaste

[Honore]

but I think that there is a way to overcome the fear mode survival instinct by laughing at shortcomings  nice phrasing... whatever works for you my friend..

But I advice people(man) to stop the use of the word neurosis if you are considerably shorter than the average in your country(<170cm). Because in that case you have no neurosis! You just have been dealt a bad hand. It sucks to be short. That does not mean that you cannot be happy... The other way around is almost always true.. Wherever you live, if you are 180cm+ and still obsessed with your height, than most probably CLL will not cure your obsession

[myloginacct]

but I think that there is a way to overcome the fear mode survival instinct by laughing at shortcomings  nice phrasing... whatever works for you my friend..

But I advice people(man) to stop the use of the word neurosis if you are considerably shorter than the average in your country(<170cm). Because in that case you have no neurosis! You just have been dealt a bad hand. It sucks to be short. That does not mean that you cannot be happy... The other way around is almost always true.. Wherever you live, if you are 180cm+ and still obsessed with your height, than most probably CLL will not cure your obsession

Not to totally derail the thread, but that's one of the more interesting debates that I haven't seen more discussed in these forums. Height, if you speak in general terms, is both subjective and objective. It was funny, but I saw a member here who was 180cm+ arguing 168cm isn't "short", giving the example of life in the Philippines. He was using that viewpoint to defend his own height neurosis and his own search for CLL, as the shortest member of a tall family in a tall country. He was arguing against a shorter member of the forums who was saying he couldn't truly understand what life for short men was due to his objectively way above world average height. Both of the posts contained true statements, though... Most men in these forums seem to be around 5'5 (165cm), give or take an inch, so technically this is a forum full of people who aren't "short", and actually above average, if we restricted the argument to the country of Laos. Honore, I think you were 167cm, so 7cm over the average for men in Laos. Tall guy! However, height is also an objective measurement, so Laos is also the country with the shortest average height for men in the whole world. That's objectively short in our own species. However, that taller member of the forums was measurably tall, if you go by the world average, but shortish in his main social circle (his family). Was he "wrong" to feel the way he did, despite his subjective experience of life? Should he accept he is tall in comparison to the rest of the world, and forget his own height neurosis?

Anyway, the way I see it, there's many types of short:

Objectively short: below the worldwide average for your gender.

Short relative to your country: short or below average for the country you live in.

Short relative to your own ethnic group: maybe average or above average compared to most of the population around you, but below average of that of your own ethnic group, maybe even decently so. Generally happens only in some multi-ethnic SEA countries and certain cities of the Americas.

Short relative to your family: only short within their own family, generally average or slightly above average in their own society.

While I think all can trigger height dysphoria and neurosis, the posters in the last group (granted they're also not member of some other one) seem to be more able to quickly forget about the existence of this forum and stop their posting here.

[Honore]

my dear myloginacct,

You have your way with words, but I specified the margins deliberately..under 170cm(even in Laos) you're short... 180cm and above and you are tall enough(even in Holland). Compare it with wealth... if you do not have enough money to buy food you're poor and gonna starve... if you have enough money to buy food, pay rent and drive a car you are rich enough... but of course relative to someone else you are always poorer or richer... and the same goes for height..I can fully sympathize with someone of 180cm who is obsessed with height because all his brothers are 195cm.. someone like that has a mental problem triggered by his height(call it a height neurosis of whatever DSM diagnosis you want), but his problem might be solved with therapy only... on the other hand, a male <170cm can be happy or can have a neurosis but objectively he is a short person and that can cause a severe mental problem which can only partially cured through therapy... he can learn to cope with the situation as a maximum achievement but he will stay a short man... generally speaking, any man below 170cm, anywhere in the world will be confronted with his vertical  limitations several times a day in a not nice way and acknowledging/feeling that pain has little to do with a semi-scientific qualification like neurosis... although you can develop many such "DSM-things" being preoccupied with cms/inches

[myloginacct]

my dear myloginacct,

You have your way with words, but I specified the margins deliberately..under 170cm(even in Laos) you're short... 180cm and above and you are tall enough(even in Holland). Compare it with wealth... if you do not have enough money to buy food you're poor and gonna starve... if you have enough money to buy food, pay rent and drive a car you are rich enough... but of course relative to someone else you are always poorer or richer... and the same goes for height..I can fully sympathize with someone of 180cm who is obsessed with height because all his brothers are 195cm.. someone like that has a mental problem triggered by his height(call it a height neurosis of whatever DSM diagnosis you want), but his problem might be solved with therapy only... on the other hand, a male <170cm can be happy or can have a neurosis but objectively he is a short person and that can cause a severe mental problem which can only partially cured through therapy... he can learn to cope with the situation as a maximum achievement but he will stay a short man... generally speaking, any man below 170cm, anywhere in the world will be confronted with his vertical  limitations several times a day in a not nice way and acknowledging/feeling that pain has little to do with a semi-scientific qualification like neurosis... although you can develop many such "DSM-things" being preoccupied with cms/inches

Sorry if it came across as preachy in any way; I was just pondering about it. I agree with everything you said but the point that someone under 170cm (but, say, above 165cm) would be considered short in Laos. He's still short, as you said, as that is under the worldwide average for males. That was my point with "objectively short". However, I don't think he'd be seen or considered short within Laos itself.

Just adapt it to any other society (average height + 5~7cm). If the average in Japan is 170cm, there's no way someone who's 175cm~177cm is considered short there.

[Honore]

I didn't felt you were preaching at all my dear friend, I like your reasoning.. A famous 19th century Dutch writer once wrote: "seen from the moon all people are of equal height".. So yes, 165cm compared to a "dwarf" is tall, and so on and on... But as I mentioned before in our DM, 175cm is a safe height even in Holland... Somehow there is an aesthetic/subconscious underline and it is somewhere around 175cm-177cm... but also an equal maximum which is between 185-188cm...

So subjectively speaking we can debate about height till eternity, but practically speaking, many of us LL-aspirant would greatly benefit from CLL with in most cases the "neurosis" cured... But I keep saying that this operation is a very risky one and should only be done if staying short is absolutely no option anymore... That's why, although I acknowledge the sincere pain a 180cm man feel amongst his taller siblings, I would never advise him CLL at this point in time...

[myloginacct]

I didn't felt you were preaching at all my dear friend, I like your reasoning.. A famous 19th century Dutch writer once wrote: "seen from the moon all people are of equal height".. So yes, 165cm compared to a "dwarf" is tall, and so on and on... But as I mentioned before in our DM, 175cm is a safe height even in Holland... Somehow there is an aesthetic/subconscious underline and it is somewhere around 175cm-177cm... but also an equal maximum which is between 185-188cm...

So subjectively speaking we can debate about height till eternity, but practically speaking, many of us LL-aspirant would greatly benefit from CLL with in most cases the "neurosis" cured... But I keep saying that this operation is a very risky one and should only be done if staying short is absolutely no option anymore... That's why, although I acknowledge the sincere pain a 180cm man feel amongst his taller siblings, I would never advise him CLL at this point in time...

Yep, I totally get that last part of your message. Those are the type of people who get focused on the thought "getting taller is possible", and not the whole losing months of your life, cutting bones in half, shxtty sleep for months, intense physical therapy sessions, etc. No wonder they all disappear without ever getting their CLL done. Simple cost-benefit analysis, in most cases.

[Knik]

Asian people, you should stop to increase average in your countries

[extremis]

First off. I know that height neurosis isn't 100% curable. If you are short or even average height in some cases, and pedisposed to neuroticism, negative thoughts will constantly cross your mind, but I think that there is a way to overcome the fear mode survival instinct by laughing at shortcomings.

I used to freak out about my tiny 7" girl hands but once I though that it is hilarious that I have small hands, my neuroticism is basically gone.

In other words, just become a self-deprecating loser who makes his entire existence a punch line based on his height like Kevin Hart and you'll be golden. Great advice.

I have used the same approach with height, and notice that a lot more girls look at me and smile because I don't look like I take myself seriously anymore. That bitter angry look as a short guy will repel girls 10x more than the height.

Even if this were true (it isn't), it's redundant and trite to say it because losing the "bitter angry look" won't make women who would reject you based on your short stature (i.e. the majority of them) suddenly attracted to you. To say otherwise is nothing short of a cope and just a rephrased "work on your personality/confidence", which I think anyone who found this forum has heard more than enough of by now.

Also, as my shrink told me, morbid curiosity should be avoided at all costs. This has helped my confidence greatly. No searches for:

"Would you date a short guy?"
"Do women prefer tall guys"
"What's the average height for a man?"
"Has height increased over time?"...

Keep the amygdala at Bay dammit.

So in order to address your neurosis, your "shrink" is teaching you to develop an avoidant personality. Problem solved! The wonders of "therapy".

Just some food for thought.

Maybe you ought to eat it yourself. Looks like you really need it.

[CaptainAmerica]

The laughing is going to stop eventually. After you get rejected by 10 girls in a row for example, and you feel bottomlessly lonely and hopeless. You will stop laughing and put the barrel in your mouth. There is no such thing as reaching internal "happiness" or "fulfillment" it doesn't exist, you can delude yourself for a moment, by laughing or by taking drugs, but soon the feelings will return. You have to change the world or yourself externally for you to feel truly different. Which is why we're here.

[Bon_Voyage]

The laughing is going to stop eventually. After you get rejected by 10 girls in a row for example, and you feel bottomlessly lonely and hopeless. You will stop laughing and put the barrel in your mouth. There is no such thing as reaching internal "happiness" or "fulfillment" it doesn't exist, you can delude yourself for a moment, by laughing or by taking drugs, but soon the feelings will return. You have to change the world or yourself externally for you to feel truly different. Which is why we're here.

Very well said!