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[psilocybe]

After a long hiatus I decided to give online dating a try. I'm 5'3/163cm, white, in my late 20's and live in the US.

I joined Match.com about a week ago. As I expected, not many girls are interested in me. The first girl who messaged me said "Hey cutie!". She's quite attractive. The problem? She's 5'10 and skipped over my stats. I had to remind her of my height, to which she replied "Oh, yeah, dang". I've had about 4 other women do the same thing. They send a flirty message, then realize I'm short and disappear immediately.

The conclusion I draw from this is that I'm generally decent/good looking but women simply cannot look past height. What's frustrating is shorter women are no less shallow. In fact, I see more girls under 5'0 with height requirements above 5'9 than I do with women between 5'0 - 5'5. It becomes humorous finding profiles of short, extremely unattractive women who demand no less than ~5'9. They'd be lucky if anyone was willing to date them let alone someone that tall.

The ultra-religious women are also quite interesting. They exude this sense of pureness and humbleness for being so attached to their faith and yet they are so shallow. For example, one woman's profile reads in part "When I think of what I want in a mate, it is most important that he has a commitment to continually pursue God" "I am most thankful in my life for a God who loves me, guides me, motivates me, and forgives me." I want to ask her questions such as "Is God guiding you only to tall men? Can you ask God what he thinks of you only willing to date Christians above 5'10?" IIRC she's only 5'1 and probably a 5/10 as far as looks go. Literally no different than a devout Christian man saying he'll only date women with a D cup.

The conundrum I have with leg lengthening is two fold.

First, I'm attracted to women with humility. I wouldn't want to date a women so shallow that at 4'11 she'd be completely unwilling to even consider dating someone 5'3. That's just a huge turn off for me. I just read an article about guys above 6'0 responding to women who list off 6'0+ as a requirement and it just turns them off. It's no different for me - if you can't date a guy who's 5 inches taller than you because he's still "short" then "shallow" isn't a strong enough word to describe who you are as a person.

Second, leg lengthening is just that. Leg lengthening. Taller men are bigger. Larger frames, hands, feet, dcks (probably), torsos, etc. I would think a woman dating you would start noticing those things. It will start with little comments. "You have small hands". "You're only a size 7.5?" Stuff like that. Then what? I'm not saying this is an absolute or anything it just seems like leg lengthening wouldn't be a cure-all for being short.

Lastly, I have high income. I make high 6 figures a year. Someone asked in another thread if this helps. I don't think it does. Why? Because 99% of men out there are not abnormally short. If income is what they're after they have the same luxury of finding a taller rich guy if they want to. Ironically, the only girl that matched my desired description (personality, looks, etc) had a desired income for her partner as UNDER $50,000. Seems like she would be intimidated by a "rich" guy.

The solution to all of this:
Everyone considering leg lengthening should instead donate their money to a shady European doctor who will do research in order to figure out some ingenious way to make an adult growth supplement so we can just grow our bodies pain free until we're all 6'4 professional athletes.

[myloginacct]

I completely understand where you are coming from by not wanting to date shallow women.

I've seen one flame war in these forums because of a short woman who registered here and said she wouldn't date men under 5'9. While I think she lacked the awareness to understand where she was posting that, and lacked it further by not apologizing, remember it's also a two fold thing for them. We may personally feel short women should be the last ones to be so picky about height, and that they should be the ones who are the most comfortable with short men, but remember a lot of women aren't simply looking for flings, but possible long term partners. Think of everything very short men have to go through in life. It's very shxtty for them to vocalize their preferences, but they may be just wanting to avoid a fate like that for their sons (having very short sons, being short woman + short man). I'd say to still date short men and just do in-vitro fertilization if it becomes something serious, so you don't risk having sons, but this is not something that crosses the mind of most normal people.

Also, I'd recommend trying to meet other people in places where you share a hobby or a passion. Or look into older women who want to marry, not to date. General, unspecific online dating is probably not ideal for shorter men.

Second, leg lengthening is just that. Leg lengthening. Taller men are bigger. Larger frames, hands, feet, dcks (probably), torsos, etc. I would think a woman dating you would start noticing those things. It will start with little comments. "You have small hands". "You're only a size 7.5?" Stuff like that. Then what? I'm not saying this is an absolute or anything it just seems like leg lengthening wouldn't be a cure-all for being short.

This is mostly in your mind. Look at Trump with his hands. Henry Cavill with his short arms. Look at the amount of short users here with big feet. Torso length does depend on height, but most other things can be a stretch of your imagination. There are a lot of taller guys who look like twigs, with thin frames (despite the torso length), and you can see all these very wide, but shorter people, with wide clavicles, in places like Turkey.

I'm not saying this is an absolute or anything it just seems like leg lengthening wouldn't be a cure-all for being short.

It depends on what you want out of it. You need to examine that within yourself. I see the optimal use of LL, in regards to dating, as being something to get over the initial hurdle of persons you're interested in not even giving you a chance because of your height. But there are also a lot of other factors we can't control that make other people not give us a chance; height is just one of them. Either way, ideally, after LL, they'd stay for who you are, after having given you the chance and getting to know you enough. Most people can't even fathom someone used to be shorter in their adulthood. Looks are very biological in nature, and it's probably more about feeling than logic. Just imagine a tall woman who underwent limb shortening to get smaller than you are, in the opposite scenario. I think most people wouldn't give it much thought, as long as they feel attracted. It's obviously a problem, however, if you got someone interested in you mostly/only because of your height, and it could even ruin a marriage in the long term because they might feel they were cheated, if they learn about it much later.

I think LL is very extreme and I'm not trying to convince anyone to do it. It's a last resort, as people say. You break your legs, it's risky, and you spend a lot of time out of work; you need to be sure this will give you peace of mind and quality of life. I think you can find someone for you who won't care about your height if you keep looking and selling yourself well. We've all seen people in rougher conditions managing to find significant others. I'm just offering my thoughts.

[YellowSpike]

I know all too well how you feel, OP. I actually never really struggled with women before LL, even though I was 5'5" ish (I said 5'7" online, got caught a few times, but for the most part, I pulled it off). Some women are more/less shallow than others, but almost all women do not want to date a man below 5'7" (more often, it's 5'9" and up these days). Height is the closest thing we have to an almost universal dealbreaker in dating. You can have literally everything going for you, but if you're below 5'7", you're gonna struggle. It's as simple as that, and I don't ever see this changing because it's such a primitive thing. For instance, even though we have the fat women acceptance movement, most men still aren't attracted to fat women. We can all band together and start a "#MeToo #ShortLivesMatter #StopShortShaming #ShortMenAreSexy" movement, but it will not change the fact that women (actually, all of us, men and women) are mammals and are always going to be attracted to/worship height. End of.

However, I will say...don't do LL for women. Do it for yourself. I know that seems contradictory to what I just said, but LL is such an extreme surgery that you're going to need to look deep inside yourself for the motivation to get through the entire process, and I don't believe a hypothetical woman or women in general are worth it enough to get anyone through the entire process. I know it wouldn't have been for me. I did LL because I hated being short, always did, even before I was dating. I'm still only a bit over 5'8" now, but I have to say...the difference is like night and day. Sad comment on society how just a few inches makes that big of a difference, but I'm living proof that it does.

[tallertree]

Well i definitely understand what you are saying. Im not an attractive guy but i do however have a interesting personality wich attracts women but it never leads anywere because of my height. Im about the same age as you and during all these years i have only met two girls with slightly-above-average-looks who looked past my short height. And just like you pointed out, short girls are the worst when it comes to requiring a tall guy, but i think it has to do with them being insecure themselves. And since guys rarely denies women because of their height, they take advantage of this and thus feel more "normal". You cant really blame them. 

[Android]

Very good replies that I agree to.

Adding to that, about these shallow women. Let's face it, men can be shallow too. For instance, you're rating them aren't you? Surely you won't date someone that doesn't meet your minimum number just because they have a nicely written profile. Men are much more sensitive when it comes to the face and body type (including weight) while women are generally interested in height and profession (status, financial security).

It's a give and take for both sides, but at the same time these requirements can be bent if they talk and hit it off. Online dating is brutal for short men and overweight women, so this works better offline; there's just too much choice online, too many signals that say that the next profile is even better.

[Zeo]

Wow this is like the first thread on this forum talking about height in a reasonable non-obsessive non-deterministic way

I forget that there are normal rational people on this forum too

You definitely need to do LL for yourself

[myloginacct]

Very good replies that I agree to.

Adding to that, about these shallow women. Let's face it, men can be shallow too. For instance, you're rating them aren't you? Surely you won't date someone that doesn't meet your minimum number just because they have a nicely written profile. Men are much more sensitive when it comes to the face and body type (including weight) while women are generally interested in height and profession (status, financial security).

It's a give and take for both sides, but at the same time these requirements can be bent if they talk and hit it off. Online dating is brutal for short men and overweight women, so this works better offline; there's just too much choice online, too many signals that say that the next profile is even better.

Your post hits the nail on the head, even if short men have it much harder.

Wheelchair-bound and third-degree burn victims get married and live happily. If you are reasonable about your standards, you can find someone for you. Height and your success is not a fatalistic matter unless you allow it to be. 

Also, no one should expect to care so much about appearance and not have it done to them.

[Zeo]

Your post hits the nail on the head, even if short men have it much harder.

Wheelchair-bound and third-degree burn victims get married and live happily. If you are reasonable about your standards, you can find someone for you. Height and your success is not a fatalistic matter unless you allow it to be. 

Also, no one should expect to care so much about appearance and not have it done to them.

This exactly ^

[psilocybe]

Thanks for all of the interesting responses.

I wouldn't be doing LL for someone else per se. My argument is mainly this: It's hard enough for normal height people to find people they're truly compatible with and connect to. When you take away 95% of women, it doesn't look good statistically. I feel like short of a miracle (no pun intended), my options are 1) Be alone 2) Be with someone who isn't what I'm really looking for but happen to be one of the few who can look past my height (probably because of their own shortcomings) 3) Move to the Philippines (average male height 5'3 IIRC).

The other benefit is obviously not being discriminated against by other adults. The first thing everyone notices about you when you're 5'3 is that you're 5'3. So, when you're around a bunch of tall(er) people you feel out of place. Even around exceptionally nice people it's awkward when their 13 year old kids come down the stairs and you're only as tall as they are.

I don't want children (I don't say that in my dating profiles). I don't buy the "but our kids will be short" argument. Plenty of guys I grew up with ended up very tall - much taller than their parents. Many of them had very short parents to begin with. Clearly, you're not going to be short simply because your parents are. On that note, my parents wanted to give me growth hormone growing up. They kept a letter from a doctor I later read recently for the first time. He said I was normal so (but short) so I shouldn't get any. GRRR! It's hard not to feel like I didn't get a fair shake in life. I would much rather be less attractive and taller, then have a decent looking face/build and be this short.

I have the money and the time but what's holding me back is the downtime and fear of complications. I had a heart problem when I was 24 (undiagnosed) and have palpitations occasionally. I'm worried off my feet for so long could lead to problems, if not the surgery itself possibly killing me. I'm paranoid about anesthesia. However in another thread I read about that new nail that's supposed to be a weight bearing nail - POSSIBLY for cosmetic LL in the coming years?

BTW could a moderator approve this thread, please?
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=5096.0

[Android]

You don't need to wait for a miracle. I mean sure, the odds are worse, but it happens. And hey, money is a great equalizer. Since you mentioned the Philippines, you could be 4'11" and still find plenty of dates if you've got the resources to provide for them (and their family).

If you really don't want kids, I recommend that you list it in your profile. It's like religion, you don't want it to be a dealbreaker later because you can't (and shouldn't) change their mind on the subject. Many good relationships have ended because one person definitely wants kids. You're also effectively turning away women that don't want kids by being deceptive about your decision as well.

There are multiple methods for anesthesia for the procedure: general and regional (spinal and epidural). I'd consult with a doctor on which is right for you and your condition.

[psilocybe]

You don't need to wait for a miracle. I mean sure, the odds are worse, but it happens. And hey, money is a great equalizer. Since you mentioned the Philippines, you could be 4'11" and still find plenty of dates if you've got the resources to provide for them (and their family).

If you really don't want kids, I recommend that you list it in your profile. It's like religion, you don't want it to be a dealbreaker later because you can't (and shouldn't) change their mind on the subject. Many good relationships have ended because one person definitely wants kids. You're also effectively turning away women that don't want kids by being deceptive about your decision as well.

There are multiple methods for anesthesia for the procedure: general and regional (spinal and epidural). I'd consult with a doctor on which is right for you and your condition.

Good info, thank you.

I mean I don't list it in my profile. It's listed either as "I'll tell you later" or "No answer". I'm not/wouldn't lie about it. A woman who wants kids would not dive into a serious relationship without knowing my thoughts on it, and I'd be comfortable talking about it prior to that. Honestly not as bad as the short guys who add several inches then "surprise" them in person lol. Although, I would find it funny if I changed my height to 6'3, then met up in person and said "Oh, wow, I must have clicked the wrong number, yeah, it's 5'3 obviously".

PlentyOfFish seems to have the most members, and there are literally 4 pages of girls within a 75 mile radius (15 per page) of women 5'3 and under who don't want children. Half of them have no profile pictures and most haven't been active in ages. All other "Wants children" answers yields 29 pages. So, you can imagine how finding someone not only compatible but also willing to date someone really short seems statistically unlikely.

I dated a girl for ~4 years in my early 20's who was significantly more attractive than myself. 9/10. Perfect face/body, cute personality (had psychological issues holding her back). I remember my height came up (she was probably an inch taller) and she said she wouldn't want to marry someone short/er. When I asked why her answer was "tradition". I think women are capable of being attracted to shorter men but there's definitely a stigma attached to it that turns them off. So it is an attraction issue, just that it's in part influenced by society's views of shorter men. She was the type of girl who cared about what her friends think of her partner's attraction (or at least did at the time). She ended up marrying a guy who's very unattractive. But, he's like 5'11 probably so there's the attraction. As long as women have a taller/bigger man I think many will work with what's there.

The Philippines thing was a joke but on a serious note you could move there and have no problems snagging a really attractive girl. As long as you're not dirt poor, being a foreigner there would feel like being 6' tall. The point is you'd be living in a country where all the other guys are short, too. A Filipino girl in the US would be redundant -- she'd have all the same opportunities as the other girls here to find (and constantly see) taller men. I'd rather be bitter than go through all the trouble to do that, though lol

[Body Builder]

Psillocybe you seem like a sensible person but there is no reason to think so much about it.
Your height is an unsuroassed obstacle for all your life and especially for dating.
So your choices are to live as an outcast or do LL, and even 2 LLs. For any sensible and a little brave person the second is the only choice.

So imo, do some climical exams to see if you have any problems with anaesthesia and if you are ok, do 2 LLs and live completely normal, as a selfcomplete person.

[IwannaBeTaller]

So your choices are to live as an outcast or do LL, and even 2 LLs. For any sensible and a little brave person the second is the only choice.

This is just ridiculous.

Yes there are drawbacks, from smaller ones to major ones, depending on what kind of life he wants to live, but they don't transition into living like an "outcast".

[The Dreamer]

This is just ridiculous.

Yes there are drawbacks, from smaller ones to major ones, depending on what kind of life he wants to live, but they don't transition into living like an "outcast".

In all of his posts he is always saying the same thing but substantially he is saying the truth
We are all here for a reason
Outcast is the wrong word but the concept behind height is right
Wish to all of you a Happy New Year hoping all of us will do leg lengthening and will move on with our lifes.

[TIBIKE200]

In all of his posts he is always saying the same thing but substantially he is saying the truth
We are all here for a reason
Outcast is the wrong word but the concept behind height is right
Wish to all of you a Happy New Year hoping all of us will do leg lengthening and will move on with our lifes.

He immensly exaggerates the setbacks for people who are not 5'10+... I can agree that at below 170 it gets harder and harder, but to say that it is extremely difficult to have a normal dating life at 170+ is insane and couldn't be farther from the truth

[backrandom]

Having a dating life below 170 is more difficult but quite possible

[Body Builder]

He immensly exaggerates the setbacks for people who are not 5'10+... I can agree that at below 170 it gets harder and harder, but to say that it is extremely difficult to have a normal dating life at 170+ is insane and couldn't be farther from the truth

The  op is 1.60.
So yes, for that height you are completely invisible for women so you live as an outcast.
And yes, at 1.70 you can date some women but still things are way harder compared to 1.78+.

If someone thinks that I exaggerate then it is ok. My experiences from 1.68 and 1.75 are the ones I mention.
With 1.68 you are invisible, with 1.75 you are ok but nothing more. Many women still think you as not tall enough for them and if someone is not excellent in all other aspects even 1.75 won't be enough to have a good dating life.
Things change dramatically after 1.80.
1.60 means no erotic life for a man and many other social problems and the only exit from that is LL. And one is not enough.
Thats the harsh truth and I am not here to tell lies but what I see from my experience.

[myloginacct]

Thanks for all of the interesting responses.

I wouldn't be doing LL for someone else per se. My argument is mainly this: It's hard enough for normal height people to find people they're truly compatible with and connect to. When you take away 95% of women, it doesn't look good statistically. I feel like short of a miracle (no pun intended), my options are 1) Be alone 2) Be with someone who isn't what I'm really looking for but happen to be one of the few who can look past my height (probably because of their own shortcomings) 3) Move to the Philippines (average male height 5'3 IIRC).

Do you mind sharing what you're looking for? I'm not gonna judge.

I have the money and the time but what's holding me back is the downtime and fear of complications. I had a heart problem when I was 24 (undiagnosed) and have palpitations occasionally. I'm worried off my feet for so long could lead to problems, if not the surgery itself possibly killing me. I'm paranoid about anesthesia. However in another thread I read about that new nail that's supposed to be a weight bearing nail - POSSIBLY for cosmetic LL in the coming years?

I assume you're from the US, right?

Then first you need to see whether you're doing tibias or femurs. You also need to be aware that even after one LL, it still won't be easy for you, but your mobility will have suffered. If you're doing tibias, you probably won't go over 6cm, so you need to analyze whether being 166cm without your old mobility is better than being 160cm with your normal mobility.

[psilocybe]

Do you mind sharing what you're looking for? I'm not gonna judge.

I assume you're from the US, right?

Then first you need to see whether you're doing tibias or femurs. You also need to be aware that even after one LL, it still won't be easy for you, but your mobility will have suffered. If you're doing tibias, you probably won't go over 6cm, so you need to analyze whether being 166cm without your old mobility is better than being 160cm with your normal mobility.

Yes, from the US. I'm looking for shyness, introversion, humility. Someone who's a deep thinker, intellectual. I have to assume that girls dating online have more extroverted personalities. Most of them are very outgoing -- or at least think they need to give off the "I'm the most outgoing person in the world" vibe.

I can do both femurs and tibias, no? I'd have to do a mock up but I would assume femurs as from my perspective in a mirror my femurs look much more on the short side than my tibias.

Thats the harsh truth and I am not here to tell lies but what I see from my experience.

Based on comments you've made in other threads regarding clubbing I have to imagine your personal experience is skewed. If you want to stand out at a club then yes, you're going to need to be a lot taller. That is the truth. But, what I also see as an objective truth is that glamorous women in tight dresses aren't the standard that represents women in general. At 5'7, you can make a dating profile right now and have absolutely no problem finding hundreds of attractive women who'd be interested in you (assuming you're not Quasimodo). Barring living in a Scandinavian country, I personally find it absolutely insane to consider LL at 5'7. I don't just say that because I'm way down here, and you're where I'd want to end up -- I just think that the 99.9999999% of 5'7 men in our countries do not feel short, insecure with their height or think that it affects their life in any negative way. There are much more women who wouldn't even think twice about a guy's 5'7 height than there are that want much taller. Outside of this forum I've never seen a guy that tall feel this way. I've seen plenty of them living completely normal lives with attractive girlfriends, etc.


QUESTION: Are you supposed to measure your height in the morning, night (or both then average?).

[Body Builder]

Yes, from the US. I'm looking for shyness, introversion, humility. Someone who's a deep thinker, intellectual. I have to assume that girls dating online have more extroverted personalities. Most of them are very outgoing -- or at least think they need to give off the "I'm the most outgoing person in the world" vibe.

I can do both femurs and tibias, no? I'd have to do a mock up but I would assume femurs as from my perspective in a mirror my femurs look much more on the short side than my tibias.


Based on comments you've made in other threads regarding clubbing I have to imagine your personal experience is skewed. If you want to stand out at a club then yes, you're going to need to be a lot taller. That is the truth. But, what I also see as an objective truth is that glamorous women in tight dresses aren't the standard that represents women in general. At 5'7, you can make a dating profile right now and have absolutely no problem finding hundreds of attractive women who'd be interested in you (assuming you're not Quasimodo). Barring living in a Scandinavian country, I personally find it absolutely insane to consider LL at 5'7. I don't just say that because I'm way down here, and you're where I'd want to end up -- I just think that the 99.9999999% of 5'7 men in our countries do not feel short, insecure with their height or think that it affects their life in any negative way. There are much more women who wouldn't even think twice about a guy's 5'7 height than there are that want much taller. Outside of this forum I've never seen a guy that tall feel this way. I've seen plenty of them living completely normal lives with attractive girlfriends, etc.


QUESTION: Are you supposed to measure your height in the morning, night (or both then average?).

I am not 5.7 (1.70), I've written to you before that I am 5.9 (1.75,5) morning height and 1.74 (5.85) evening height.
And no, the majority of 5.7 people in the west, where average height is about 5.10, feel short(er) and they are as 3 inches from completely average is not a short amount.
But still at my height I feel a big drawback. And if clubs and all these places that people meet each other to flirt is not a place where you can see how attractive you are to the opposite gender then what is it, a library?
Sorry but I want to have a good appearance to be able to talk and attract women everywhere, and that contains clubs, bars and all these. I don't plan to be an intellectual to attract a girl not faithful to meet a girl in church and all these.
I just want to attract a girl with my appearance and then win her with my character, this is the most sensible think imo.
Anyway, maybe at your country 5.7 is a respectable height but for my country it is nothing more than the last border between average and short.
My height, 5.9, is way better than 5.7 and even 2 inches at that heights can really change a lot but still, you are so close to women with heels that still you don't have the benefit to appear tall when you talk to them, unless they are shorter than 5.4 but most women nowadays aren't.

Most people don't even know that they have a different height between morning and night as they have enough height to not care about if they lose 2cm-1 inch from day to night.
I don't know what is our real height, morning or evening but I've measured them both and I have a difference of 1.5-2 cm. However, even now I think this difference is not so few when I hit 1.81 height (which is my after second LL target) I won't care about that at all.

[myloginacct]

I am not 5.7 (1.70), I've written to you before that I am 5.9 (1.75,5) morning height and 1.74 (5.85) evening height.
And no, the majority of 5.7 people in the west, where average height is about 5.10, feel short(er) and they are as 3 inches from completely average is not a short amount.
But still at my height I feel a big drawback. And if clubs and all these places that people meet each other to flirt is not a place where you can see how attractive you are to the opposite gender then what is it, a library?
Sorry but I want to have a good appearance to be able to talk and attract women everywhere, and that contains clubs, bars and all these. I don't plan to be an intellectual to attract a girl not faithful to meet a girl in church and all these.
I just want to attract a girl with my appearance and then win her with my character, this is the most sensible think imo.
Anyway, maybe at your country 5.7 is a respectable height but for my country it is nothing more than the last border between average and short.
My height, 5.9, is way better than 5.7 and even 2 inches at that heights can really change a lot but still, you are so close to women with heels that still you don't have the benefit to appear tall when you talk to them, unless they are shorter than 5.4 but most women nowadays aren't.

Most people don't even know that they have a different height between morning and night as they have enough height to not care about if they lose 2cm-1 inch from day to night.
I don't know what is our real height, morning or evening but I've measured them both and I have a difference of 1.5-2 cm. However, even now I think this difference is not so few when I hit 1.81 height (which is my after second LL target) I won't care about that at all.

You are both right.

You can live happily at 5'7 (specially coming from anything under 5'6), and every centimeter increase around that range (164~174cm) does increase your options a lot, simply in terms of the bell curve and percentiles, depending on where you live. Being above 5'7 (170cm) in places like Japan doesn't increase your options much (ignoring the appearance benefits), because it's like being over 180cm (5'11) in Norway. Girls 170cm and over in Japan are like girls 180cm and over in Norway. They're used to dating same height or a bit lower. Whereas going over 5'7 in most Western countries makes sense, but it's also true you don't need that to be happy. Most women are still 170cm or under, so you'll be in the playing field, at least. Not that it's impossible to find anyone if you're under that, as we've discussed, but we're also in a CLL forum - we know it helps.

I can do both femurs and tibias, no? I'd have to do a mock up but I would assume femurs as from my perspective in a mirror my femurs look much more on the short side than my tibias.

QUESTION: Are you supposed to measure your height in the morning, night (or both then average?).

Regarding the first: you can do both. However, I have never been looking into something like that, so I don't know much about it. The risk of embolism is higher when you do more than one bone at once, but I'm not sure all cross-lengthening does the lengthening in tibias and femurs simultaneously.

Regarding the second question: most people here list their morning height (just after waking up, their max height), and also their bed height (just before bed, their minimum height). Check out stretching exercises if you want to increase your height naturally too. It's not much, but it's something. I've gained a bit over 1cm of height with them, and I'm still doing them everyday to keep track if it will increase more.

[psilocybe]

I am not 5.7 (1.70), I've written to you before that I am 5.9 (1.75,5) morning height and 1.74 (5.85) evening height.
And no, the majority of 5.7 people in the west, where average height is about 5.10, feel short(er) and they are as 3 inches from completely average is not a short amount.
But still at my height I feel a big drawback. And if clubs and all these places that people meet each other to flirt is not a place where you can see how attractive you are to the opposite gender then what is it, a library?
Sorry but I want to have a good appearance to be able to talk and attract women everywhere, and that contains clubs, bars and all these. I don't plan to be an intellectual to attract a girl not faithful to meet a girl in church and all these.
I just want to attract a girl with my appearance and then win her with my character, this is the most sensible think imo.
Anyway, maybe at your country 5.7 is a respectable height but for my country it is nothing more than the last border between average and short.
My height, 5.9, is way better than 5.7 and even 2 inches at that heights can really change a lot but still, you are so close to women with heels that still you don't have the benefit to appear tall when you talk to them, unless they are shorter than 5.4 but most women nowadays aren't.

Most people don't even know that they have a different height between morning and night as they have enough height to not care about if they lose 2cm-1 inch from day to night.
I don't know what is our real height, morning or evening but I've measured them both and I have a difference of 1.5-2 cm. However, even now I think this difference is not so few when I hit 1.81 height (which is my after second LL target) I won't care about that at all.

5'9, even better. I'm happy for you! Sorry, I thought average height in US was 5'7. Maybe it used to be? Years ago when I was looking into this it was - so I'm assuming people are getting taller (noooo!). Anyway, if you're 5'9 and the average height in the US/UK is 5'9 then what's the problem? Ok, I get it -- you want to be better than average. I don't blame you (what guy wouldn't want to be?), but I do think there's some psychological issues if an "average" height man is insecure about his height.

The disconnect is trying to understand why club/bar scene is your preferred place to find a partner. Are we talking flings or for serious dating/relationships? I don't think there's anything wrong with clubbing I just think you're walking into a beauty contest on both sides. The type of people that go there are primarily concerned with looks -- isn't that the point? In other words, there's going to be more than plenty very attractive women who will be into you outside of that scene, that aren't concerned with you not being as tall as the next guy, who are just as attractive... Just my 2 cents.

[myloginacct]

Psilocybe, have you already used lifts/insoles and shoes for height? That's what most members here do. It seems to be an important part of letting people get to know you first for many here. It can also help give you perspective to ponder on whether LL is for you.

[IwannaBeTaller]

5'9, even better. I'm happy for you! Sorry, I thought average height in US was 5'7. Maybe it used to be? Years ago when I was looking into this it was - so I'm assuming people are getting taller (noooo!). Anyway, if you're 5'9 and the average height in the US/UK is 5'9 then what's the problem? Ok, I get it -- you want to be better than average. I don't blame you (what guy wouldn't want to be?), but I do think there's some psychological issues if an "average" height man is insecure about his height.

The disconnect is trying to understand why club/bar scene is your preferred place to find a partner. Are we talking flings or for serious dating/relationships? I don't think there's anything wrong with clubbing I just think you're walking into a beauty contest on both sides. The type of people that go there are primarily concerned with looks -- isn't that the point? In other words, there's going to be more than plenty very attractive women who will be into you outside of that scene, that aren't concerned with you not being as tall as the next guy, who are just as attractive... Just my 2 cents.

Average height has been about 5'9'' to 5'10'' in the US for the past 30-40 years. The good news is that is has almost stopped increasing, so at least you won't have to worry about that.

What Body Builder says is his personal opinion, his personal worldview. It doesn't have to be yours. Don't let other people tell you that you cannot possibly be happy or satifsied at X height, that would be a very crippling worldview. I know it sounds like a dumb phrase, but you have to look for happiness in your own, very personal way. LL can be a part of that process, but be aware of the costs, limitations and possible consequences. There's also tons of short girls out there, even a lot who are at 5'3'' or even below. One of my classmates from university had his first kid with his girlfriend a couple months ago, at only around 25 years, and he's definitely not taller than about 5'7''-5'8'' from what I estimate. Don't give up hope. 

[psilocybe]

5'7 - 5'8 is perfectly normal IMO. It might be below average but being 5 - 10 pounds more than "average weight" or something isn't going to ruin anyone's life. As I mentioned, almost all women on these dating sites are looking for 5'7+. Girls 5'3 and below aren't any less demanding in their height preferences. In fact, they seem even more demanding. It's far more common to find 4'10 - 5'2 girls that want at least 5'10 than it is to find 5'6 girls that want at least 5'10. I'm repeating myself here but it's not height difference that matters. In other words, a 4'11 girl DOES have a problem with a 5'3 guy (4 inch difference) but a 5'5 girl doesn't have a problem with 5'9.

[psilocybe]

Psilocybe, have you already used lifts/insoles and shoes for height? That's what most members here do. It seems to be an important part of letting people get to know you first for many here. It can also help give you perspective to ponder on whether LL is for you.

Tried this in my early 20's and felt really stupid. Aside from feeling like a woman walking around in high heels, it never really did anything for me. Here in the winter everyone's house you go into they're going to want you to take your shoes off anyway. To my mind these types of shoes are more appropriate for people who when taking them off people aren't going to think "wow you're REALLY short"

[myloginacct]

Tried this in my early 20's and felt really stupid. Aside from feeling like a woman walking around in high heels, it never really did anything for me. Here in the winter everyone's house you go into they're going to want you to take your shoes off anyway. To my mind these types of shoes are more appropriate for people who when taking them off people aren't going to think "wow you're REALLY short"

Yeah, taking them off is always terrible. I was thinking more about whether a 6/8cm (around 2.3 / 3 inches) increase total with a combination of shoe + lifts would make you feel satisfied enough, when out in the crowds, that considering LL with those targets could really be something to think about. It could also do the opposite: maybe you'd feel it still wasn't enough, and it could help taking LL off your mind.

And I know we joked about moving to another country here, but maybe some holidays in a much shorter country like the Philippines or any of the Pacific Islands (Polynesia/Micronesia) wouldn't be such a bad idea. Who knows who could you meet there? Will certainly be a more pleasant experience than LL with the money.

[psilocybe]

Yeah, taking them off is always terrible. I was thinking more about whether a 6/8cm (around 2.3 / 3 inches) increase total with a combination of shoe + lifts would make you feel satisfied enough, when out in the crowds, that considering LL with those targets could really be something to think about. It could also do the opposite: maybe you'd feel it still wasn't enough, and it could help taking LL off your mind.

And I know we joked about moving to another country here, but maybe some holidays in a much shorter country like the Philippines or any of the Pacific Islands (Polynesia/Micronesia) wouldn't be such a bad idea. Who knows who could you meet there? Will certainly be a more pleasant experience than LL with the money.

I don't think that's a bad idea. But, as I mentioned you'd have to pretty much remain in that country. The girls here from those countries aren't any less shallow (I've seen plenty that want tall men specifically). The benefit is not the girls per se - but living in a country where tall men aren't really around to begin with...

I wouldn't do LL just for dating though. The first thing anyone notices about me is my height. Being judged/treated differently for it sucks. I'd want LL to feel (more) normal, too. I wouldn't do it unless I could get to 5'6, though. Preferably 5'7. That's 3 - 4 inches.

[myloginacct]

The girls here from those countries aren't any less shallow (I've seen plenty that want tall men specifically).

Heightism is cultural. It's better in the countries their families came from.

I wouldn't do LL just for dating though. The first thing anyone notices about me is my height. Being judged/treated differently for it sucks. I'd want LL to feel (more) normal, too. I wouldn't do it unless I could get to 5'6, though. Preferably 5'7. That's 3 - 4 inches.

You can get 3 inches or very close to it if you do femurs. It's just more expensive. If you are aware of the risks, consequences, have tried to overcome height neurosis in all other ways (e.g. therapy), then I see LL as an option. I'm 100% sure you don't need it to find someone for you, but to feel good about yourself is a whole other subject. Only you can know the answer to that.

[psilocybe]

Heightism is cultural. It's better in the countries their families came from.

You can get 3 inches or very close to it if you do femurs. It's just more expensive. If you are aware of the risks, consequences, have tried to overcome height neurosis in all other ways (e.g. therapy), then I see LL as an option. I'm 100% sure you don't need it to find someone for you, but to feel good about yourself is a whole other subject. Only you can know the answer to that.

I'm about 15% sure, based on the last couple weeks of online dating. Girls I'm attracted to skip over me. The way I see it is that no matter what I have to offer, there's always a whole pool of guys with the same things and taller. The girls who message me are generally less attractive and there's almost a recognition of "I'm ugly, you're short". Ugly isn't the right word but you get the point I'm trying to make.

Maybe if Body Builder and I throw down on a Groupon we can get some freestyle dance lessons and girls at the club will start to notice us

[7231]

After a long hiatus I decided to give online dating a try. I'm 5'3/163cm, white, in my late 20's and live in the US.

I joined Match.com about a week ago. As I expected, not many girls are interested in me. The first girl who messaged me said "Hey cutie!". She's quite attractive. The problem? She's 5'10 and skipped over my stats. I had to remind her of my height, to which she replied "Oh, yeah, dang". I've had about 4 other women do the same thing. They send a flirty message, then realize I'm short and disappear immediately.

The conclusion I draw from this is that I'm generally decent/good looking but women simply cannot look past height. What's frustrating is shorter women are no less shallow. In fact, I see more girls under 5'0 with height requirements above 5'9 than I do with women between 5'0 - 5'5. It becomes humorous finding profiles of short, extremely unattractive women who demand no less than ~5'9. They'd be lucky if anyone was willing to date them let alone someone that tall.

The ultra-religious women are also quite interesting. They exude this sense of pureness and humbleness for being so attached to their faith and yet they are so shallow. For example, one woman's profile reads in part "When I think of what I want in a mate, it is most important that he has a commitment to continually pursue God" "I am most thankful in my life for a God who loves me, guides me, motivates me, and forgives me." I want to ask her questions such as "Is God guiding you only to tall men? Can you ask God what he thinks of you only willing to date Christians above 5'10?" IIRC she's only 5'1 and probably a 5/10 as far as looks go. Literally no different than a devout Christian man saying he'll only date women with a D cup.

The conundrum I have with leg lengthening is two fold.

First, I'm attracted to women with humility. I wouldn't want to date a women so shallow that at 4'11 she'd be completely unwilling to even consider dating someone 5'3. That's just a huge turn off for me. I just read an article about guys above 6'0 responding to women who list off 6'0+ as a requirement and it just turns them off. It's no different for me - if you can't date a guy who's 5 inches taller than you because he's still "short" then "shallow" isn't a strong enough word to describe who you are as a person.

Second, leg lengthening is just that. Leg lengthening. Taller men are bigger. Larger frames, hands, feet, dcks (probably), torsos, etc. I would think a woman dating you would start noticing those things. It will start with little comments. "You have small hands". "You're only a size 7.5?" Stuff like that. Then what? I'm not saying this is an absolute or anything it just seems like leg lengthening wouldn't be a cure-all for being short.

Lastly, I have high income. I make high 6 figures a year. Someone asked in another thread if this helps. I don't think it does. Why? Because 99% of men out there are not abnormally short. If income is what they're after they have the same luxury of finding a taller rich guy if they want to. Ironically, the only girl that matched my desired description (personality, looks, etc) had a desired income for her partner as UNDER $50,000. Seems like she would be intimidated by a "rich" guy.

The solution to all of this:
Everyone considering leg lengthening should instead donate their money to a shady European doctor who will do research in order to figure out some ingenious way to make an adult growth supplement so we can just grow our bodies pain free until we're all 6'4 professional athletes.

LOL, ROFL, LMAO - reading this and visualize my experiences, 100% similar. each everything you said - I experienced m noticed same, everything. And moreover - I am similar height as yours (5 years older than you) , make six figures like you. One thing I completely disagree with you is - even if you can't make rest of the body bigger, doing LL is worth it - most tall men have taller legs (of course they have bigger other limbs as well) and if you do LL and get 4-5 inches you will be far better off in dating market - I have noticed this by wearing 3 inches lift shoes. 5 inches LL would make wonders.