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[TemakiSushi]

However I’ve seen some living evidences also,  I am not yet a total believer of CLL nor Donghoon so I keep researching, although I have already reservations 

Think whatever you think
I’m only sharing my opinions whenever I encounter dangerous information here
So that people once stop and think very carefully to protect their future, time, health and money

Who doesn’t say “watch out” when someone is about to fall into a pond unintentionally

[Nestor]

This is the first negative post I've read about Dr Giotikas, can anyone else back up these claims? I have Stryde surgery booked with Dr G, I'd rather not be going into it with any doubts.

[daikioni]

Its better to ask the people that had the surgery with him imo.
ill definitely go with him this year or the next but if you are not sure yet make a good research and pick the best suitable surgeon for you. i hope the best for your future ll!

[Nestor]

Thanks man, best of luck to you too. I've researched him and his credentials seem solid, he also works for the NHS which is the main reason I chose him. I've read the diaries of his patients and they seem to be reasonably positive, although more diaries would be helpful. Always difficult to tell on these forums what is genuine and what isn't so who knows.

[Kenda]

.

[limewalk]

This is the first negative post I've read about Dr Giotikas, can anyone else back up these claims? I have Stryde surgery booked with Dr G, I'd rather not be going into it with any doubts.

Ask him TemakiSushi's concerns in previous posts. Does he take 3D x-ray? How does he prevent rotational deformity? Has his previous patients healed? Or you can have a consultation with Dr. Lee also and compare. I have not done so much research as you or Temaki have, but it maybe logical to do this.

[Andy]

Thanks man, best of luck to you too. I've researched him and his credentials seem solid, he also works for the NHS which is the main reason I chose him. I've read the diaries of his patients and they seem to be reasonably positive, although more diaries would be helpful. Always difficult to tell on these forums what is genuine and what isn't so who knows.

Hi Nestor, I agree with Daikioni, if you need more info,  better ask real patients who have been or are in Athens now, like Azman. Even then, I might add, filter out what is just their subjective perception of things.
They are certainly a better source of info compared to any unknown and potentially sinister mind here (with no expertise and no consequences to their advice). Don't let them poison your mind, especially if you are already on your way to the real thing. Many of them just envy and can be toxic, Zakika has already mentioned these things in the past and he was absolutely right imo.

[TwinMusicom]

For choosing a doctor, I've always wondered about something. There was a point in history where Dr. Paley or Mahoubian had less experience early in their careers. Eventually, a doctor gets enough experience and becomes a "safe" doctor in people's eyes, or at least one would hope. Its tough. The patients a young doctor takes early in his years have to know they are going with a less experienced doctor, though him being less experienced doesn't exactly mean he is malicious or unscrupulous.

I wish Dr. Paley would publish a book (maybe he already has) of a giant flowchart of things that a doctor should consider in every situation/how to handle or prevent various complications. He seems to go over alot of common mistakes/situations here (making too big of an incision, how to remove a broken nail quickly, etc ) though I imagine experienced LL doctors may have learned almost all of this during residencies already.

[Nestor]

Yeah that's true every surgeon starts off with little experience but then builds a name for himself/herself, the only downside is you'd rather not be one of the guinea pigs for them to make mistakes on 😄

Ive watched some of that video before Paley makes some great points, like you mentioned you would imagine if we're aware of such things from a YouTube video then so would a practicing surgeon, or at least I'd hope!

I've spoken with Dr Giotikas, he comes across as very intelligent and ethical, I'm hoping he's a good choice.

[TwinMusicom]

Yeah that's true every surgeon starts off with little experience but then builds a name for himself/herself, the only downside is you'd rather not be one of the guinea pigs for them to make mistakes on 😄

Ive watched some of that video before Paley makes some great points, like you mentioned you would imagine if we're aware of such things from a YouTube video then so would a practicing surgeon, or at least I'd hope!

I've spoken with Dr Giotikas, he comes across as very intelligent and ethical, I'm hoping he's a good choice.

Tell us how it goes if you go with him! He seems to have left good impressions on people.

[dreamingtall]

I just pray this man does not raise his prices

[SpeedDialer]

I’ve had my consultation with Dr. Giotikas. Here are my thoughts about my experience in Athens in general before:

So to do surgery with Dr. Giotikas, someone would typically fly to his office in Greece to do the a consultation, and then a few months later would schedule a surgery and fly there again?

[SpeedDialer]

It's a real face to face consultation, which will last approximately 45 minutes and it's here in London.

Oh? I hadn't thought about this at all. Is it typically cheaper in terms of flights/hotel the night before the consultation for say an American to do the consultation in London as opposed to Athens?

[cobalt]

TemakiSushi, I hope you know Dr. Donghoon Lee also had pts with complications but they are posted in another language. A few comments was translated by a forum member, there were some pts with nerve damage and unable to feel their toes after removing fixators and problems still unresolved. He also forgot to do release surgery with another overseas patient who flied over again and wasted 10,000 more for surgery and flight. In Korea, countless pts died from operation related mistakes like wrong dosage of anesthesia and unqualified shadow doctors/nursing operating on others. Korea is adept at hiding their bad outcome data because of "face" and scaring away prospective cosmetic tourism. While I'm not saying it was at Dr. Donghoon's clinic but what is stopping these same types of workers/helpers coming from bad clinics and slipping into others? My point is having surgery in Korea with Dr. Donghoon is not some guaranteed outcome for everyone either.

And Dr. Donghoon has won surgeon awards by the way and I do think he is more legit than others operating in Asia but this shows alot can still go wrong regardless of anyone's reputation. It is up to each person to do their own research and make a personal choice. Your research is not necessarily better than somebody else's so let people make their own decision instead of bringing down this one doctor everywhere. You seem to have confirmational bias yourself with Donghoon being the only choice for others and an ax to grind with Giotikas. You are even bothered about where the man lives, which has nothing to do with whether he is a good surgeon or not. THAT is borderline obsessive. You have not done surgery with him and should not be giving advice contradicting his own pts satisfied postings about their OWN outcome and progress.

Btw, suddenurge's situation is unfortunate but remember it was another surgeon's mistakes another doctor is given to work with. We don't know extent of damage already from the delayed response from first doctor in Turkey. Giotikas likely did not want to put patient through more trauma with reinsertion of another device. The pt reported the grafting and result is not done yet so we are unclear of his situation. What Giotikas should of done in my opinion was offer the patient two options to choose from: TSF and the other option that he did instead. Patient should of demanded TSF for its track record in fixing misalignment and go to the Dr who will do it. If Dr. Giotikas refused, then he should not go to him, which is not the case that any of this occurred. There is no x-rays or followup from poster, we don't know what went on exactly to judge. To be fair to Dr. Giotikas.

In a surgery like this, alot can go wrong, even a great surgeon may not have 100% perfect results, on the contrary you want to choose a dr that takes precautions and mitigate any undesirable outcome. That is why I listed those Drs from their respective regions as the top, this is in comparison to the others/peers that do not have their varied experience and trauma surgery credentials.

[TemakiSushi]

Hi Cobalt
Thanks for complications info about Dr Lee
Could you give me the site URL of the nerve damage case, toes numbness?, you are taking about
I know Dystonia like case in which one toe is keep moving but never immobile, Dr Lee himself explained about the case

Anesthesia accidents most happened at small cosmetic clinics where anesthesiologist is not present at surgery and only surgeon and nurses are in charge of monitoring anesthesia while doing surgery
On contrary, Dr Lee’s hospital has resident anesthesiologist

According to the patients I’ve contacted, yes superficial Skin numbness is quite common especially among external and last like a year in some case.  This skin numbness, I don’t  worry much as long as it’s not making damage like a dropfoot

Release not done case, could you also refer me to the site, if it’s not the case in the forum?
From what I’ve known, some years ago Dr Lee didn’t do IT band release in some cases
Now it’s confirmed for femurs he does IT band release routinely
Bicep tendons only in cases hamstrings are extremely tight
Gastrocnemius fascia release, only in some cases it’s done
it seems it doesn’t need to be done if ankles aren’t too tight
These practices are just like Paley
I’ve never heard of preventive nerve decompression cases with Donghoon
It was done on OYG by Paley

BTW I never expect any CLL doctor to be 100% safe
Still certainly some doctors have much higher rate of complications than others
Also most patients never write a thing about their experience here.
If there are already quite a bit of complications or dangerous treatments are revealed here, that means there are lot more complications hidden behind this forum
Even those who write diaries here, many hide crucial facts

There are too many readers who only rely on this forum and have too optimistic views of certain doctors, especially those doctors who newly entered into CLL field

There have been guiniepigs, then after some cases there are stories of devastating experiences
This kind of history is repeated  just too many times here
Look at what’s been happening in India, China, Armenia, Russia, Uklaina,Germany, Spain, Italy etc etc
People don’t need to hide negative information
Why you wanna hear only good things about the doctor you are interested in?
It’s way better to estimate the risks before the surgery is done
Some do surgery without having extra funds
If they’ve known the risks they could have prepared for it
How much will they loose if they cannot walk normally for two years, living without income
Some come from the country which doesn’t provide enough health welfare

Also, many CLL doctors or their staff are reading this site
It should be good for them to learn here to provide better treatments

[cobalt]

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=9941.0

from a korean forum website NAVER and translated by another member

This is his outcome of patients using his cafe
-Able to exercise and extert force like before. Practically same without surgery.(6.5cm/femur PRECICE2). He said that he is the best recovered patient amongst all that he saw including other femur PRECICE2 patients.
-Able to exercise and extert force. Hasn't tried to exercise intensely but he can't see why it wouldn't work.(5.5cm/PRECICE femur)
-Able to exercise and extert force. Has been going to the gym for a while. There are no problems with his legs and it practically doesn't feel any different. Fast movement(very intense running) is slower than before. His speed has gone down slower and his leg stamina has also gone down. It's not painful, he explained as a heavyness on his leg like you would be after walking/running for a long time. Albeit it comes faster than before.(LON tibia 6.3cm)
-Able to exercise and extert force. He has about 90% of his previous ability. Nothing really changed for him and very satisfied with his surgery.(LON 6cm tibia)
-Everything is same as before surgery other than crossing legs and intense exercise. Roughly 85% recovery as stated by her. Still hasn't gotten nail removed, 2 years after initial surgery.(7cm tibia LON/Asian female patient)
-6 years since surgery. Is able to dance/walk/run/heavy lifting. Practically same as before. However, he is unable to run as fast as before. (7cm tibia LON)
-7 years since surgery. Is able to function normally in life and can lift/walk. Unable to run like before and heavy exercise is still too exhausting. He said that if a robber hit him and run, he wouldn't be able to catch up to him. Said that his tibia still does not feel strong. If he gets hit in his tibia, it hurts very much so. One of the worst cases seen in the forums.(7cm tibia LON. 170cm->177cm)
-7 years since surgery. He says that he is infact faster and stronger than his before-surgery state. He loves soccer and plays it everyday, he says that he is even better at it than before surgery. He has been one of the best results for the surgery. Many patients and himself says it is because he did recovery exercises for 14 hours every day and only took breaks while eating and sleeping.(5.7cm LON tibia 166cm->171~172cm)
-Hasn't talked about running but seems to be functioning well. 1.5 year since surgery and hasn't gotten nail removed yet. Last post was asking Dr.Donghoon Lee if he could leg press more than he is doing currently.(80kg/roughly 180 pounds).(6.4cm LON tibia/hasn't gotten nail removed).
-Worst case yet in Dr.Donghoon Lee's cafe. Is unable to function well in society. Cannot move his foot muscles properly(pain and freezes up). It is in a constant state of pain even without moving. He is able to walk but cannot run properly. No problems with his bones but his muscles have been diagnosed as a disease.(Involuntary movement) Dr.Donghoon Lee has been attempting to take care of him and used his name as a reference him to Severence Hospital for a diagnosis. Still has NOT been resolved. It has been 2 years since surgery. Says it started after removing his external fixator and putting the nail in(2nd surgery). He thinks it may have to do with his broken pin that happened in his first surgery. Still has not been solved.(posted less than a month ago)

There are more but most of them are incomplete without updates.(Only posts about the first few months of surgery.)

[cobalt]

I am not looking to hear only good things about any surgeon. In a serious surgery like this, you would want to have all the information in front of you whether good or bad to make the right decision for yourselves. Leave no rock unturned in researching the surgery itself and your surgeon choice.

Please stick with objective and deep information, not lazy statements such as "I don't like so and so. He's this and that bc I just think so."

[TemakiSushi]

Oh yes I have this patients video of his toe moving involuntarily.
I’ve also chatted with the guy who posted this here.
His symptom is like dystonia.  he was diagnosed by a university neurologist that this is not caused by the LL surgical mistakes.
If the nerve is damaged then it won’t move, just like a dropfoot that makes impossible to lift a toe
Dystonia is a condition of brain dysfunction and can be caused by a trauma.  Since external LL is such an invasive surgery, actually anyone who are susceptible to a traumatic experience can get this Dystonia like condition
This is very rare case though, and still Donghoon meets my criteria of less than 5 % complication rate
Giotikas, there are just too many red signs,  reading what’s been reported here.

[TemakiSushi]

OK here we go the list of red signs, the reasons not to choose Giotikas

A guy wasn’t happy with Giotikas Reoperation, couldn’t fix misalignment
Check Giotikas X-rays of tibia cases at least on this forum
He doesn’t put thick screws to hold fibulas
It’s well known that the tibia surgery without these screws will leave some troubles with joints
If Giotikas isn’t good at aligning bones then he may produce some troubles with femurs with prospective patients
Misalignments actually could be the cause of very delayed consolidation.  Pure externals should get faster consolidation but taking more than a year with less than 5 cm lengthening.
Giotikas telling patients that he put extra screws into heels for ballerina foot
Giotikas did extra surgery of foot flextor muscle extension to Zakika
Those surgeries should be avoided at any cost to protect soft tissues, ligaments and cartilages
These facts mean that he doesn’t pay much attention to PT to provide better prevention of contractures
With a femur case, it seems he doesn’t prescribe oxycodone to releave severe pains
For some people without strong pain meds, LL process can be unnecessarily extremely stressful and may cause a risk of mental trauma

[IwannaBeTaller]

TemakiSushi,

where actually do you have the data on surgeons' complication rates from? How did you draw conclusions like Dr. Lee having a <5% complication rate, or doctor XY an x% complication rate? Did you just count complications in patient diaries and self-reports, take the doctor's own statements, or use science papers?

Cheers.

[cobalt]

Each person's genetics, gender, and their body's response to the surgery and their ability to heal is different. Asians(Indian, Chinese, etc) have slower consolidation due to genetics and possibly diet regardless if its external only, nail or not. Paley's women tibia and Asian patients were also reported to need more time to consolidate.

Maybe we are not coming across the same information about Giotikas? Azman, zakika, great123, Jolien, the others who did Stryde including a Chinese girl and also an American guy, went to him and satisfied with their outcome? They can't be that unhappy, one even tried to the use the opportunity to market her diary to others, albeit with exagerration. Giotikas did not leave anyone crippled?

Azman's diary mentioned that there are alot more doing Stryde with Giotikas and that they are also doing fine? I recall a complaint about his therapy facility, not to one person's liking, but please differentiate between functionality and luxury. Some are fine with functionality of facility, whether it is resort-like to others don't matter. Others contradicted this person on this and azman's diary mentioned the current ones there are happy with the rehabilitation they got and there is nothing amiss. To each, their own I guess?

I did not read or see anywhere that Giotikas initiated their own cascade of problems unlike the ones who went to India, Serbia, China, Turkey, and god knows where else they ended up because they did not choose safety and credibility. You think NHS would hire some goon off the streets with no credentials as their consultant trauma surgeon? He is the clinical director of a orthopedic facility in which he founded and was also recruited by a university located in Cambridge as their honorable senior clinical lecturer. If he was not respected, they would not even bother to seek him out for any of these positions.

[cobalt]

I also don't see whats wrong with his technique? They can all walk from what is in zakika and great123 videos. You made a claim about someone's foot in the last page, you do know that some people are born with flat foot, and it might not be caused by surgery itself, nobody knows with certainty unless we personally have their information and close up photos before surgery, which none of us do. A surgeon has his own techniques and what size pins they want to use is up to them, not you. I think he is trying to minimize the size of the scar created with the smaller pins, as smaller holes do heal better, and having more of it creates stability and position of bone aligned with frame so ppl won't end up with rotatational deformity.

You definitely are injecting your opinion that Giotikas is a horrible choice for others, not because any credible evidence that shows that he is. You need to be fair in your assessment of others. You can choose whoever as your surgeon but remain respectful to others. I am not telling anyone that they have to go to Giotikas either, go do your own research, and go where you feel comfortable and have enough information on.

[cobalt]

One of the downsides to Greece that I agree with is their pain management is unlike that of the US. So just be aware and prepared mentally when you go overseas in other countries esp Asia and Europe for this surgery, they are more wary and hesitant of prescribing stronger meds such as opiods for pain. These other countries want to curtail opiod addiction and have less of an opiod epidemic than the US. In the US, normally surgeons prescribe Percocet(oxycodone) or Vicodin(hydrocodone) for those who undergo orthopedic procedures to take every 4-6 hours to effectively manage their pain after surgery. This helps patient sleep. Downside to pain med is constipation, slower bone healing, vomiting, and potential of addiction. Tramadol, ibuprofen, aspirin for pain and neurontin, lyrica for nerve is what you see more often in some of the overseas diaries out there reporting to have available for their pain management.

[TemakiSushi]

TemakiSushi,

where actually do you have the data on surgeons' complication rates from? How did you draw conclusions like Dr. Lee having a <5% complication rate, or doctor XY an x% complication rate? Did you just count complications in patient diaries and self-reports, take the doctor's own statements, or use science papers?

Cheers.

If I were only counting data from diaries or whatever doctor says?
The rate will be too gooood to believe 
Luckily since I’m not native English speaker I have my own sources

[IwannaBeTaller]

Are there Korean government sources published on cosmetic surgeons' records? It wouldn't surprise me seeing Korea is the cosmetic surgery capital of the world.

But how can you Korean language skills help you when it comes to the complication rates of people like Giotikas or Paley? How can you know their complication rates?

[TemakiSushi]

Oh no connections are not limited to Asian hospitals

[IwannaBeTaller]

Keep being so vague, I'm sure it will make your words more credible.

[TemakiSushi]

If you are such a data oriented person then why don’t you get interested in a few years long veterans of Giotikas?
How can you feel safe with a doctor like Giotikas who doesn’t have that long enough history of CLL
CLL journey doesn’t end really until a few years after surgery
Many develop joint problems a year or two years after surgery

[azman]

If you are such a data oriented person then why don’t you get interested in a few years long veterans of Giotikas?
How can you feel safe with a doctor like Giotikas who doesn’t have that long enough history of CLL
CLL journey doesn’t end really until a few years after surgery
Many develop joint problems a year or two years after surgery

TemakiSushi,

Stop with all the negativity on Dr. Giotikas.  I too considered Dr. Donghoon of Korea and Dr. R, Dr. P, Dr. M & Dr. D of the US before finally choosing Dr. G after all my research and Thank God I did.  Not sure what the outcome will be if I didn’t choose Dr. G, but I’m more than HAPPY with my results and recovery and so are all the patients I met in Athens.  In fact a few of us still keep in contact by WhatsApp since we are international patients.
Before leaving Athens, I have met 3 patients that did Stryde on their TIBIAS and they are walking and recovering nicely.  Reading information on this forum is one thing but meeting patients face to face is another.  So before bashing a doctor, go meet that doctor and their patients and your worries and whole view will change.
Dr. Donghoon is a good doctor also and good luck with your planned surgery when he get Stryde.  Start a dairy when you finally actually get the surgery, anything before the surgery are just talk.

Azman

[Andy]

If you are such a data oriented person then why don’t you get interested in a few years long veterans of Giotikas?
How can you feel safe with a doctor like Giotikas who doesn’t have that long enough history of CLL
CLL journey doesn’t end really until a few years after surgery
Many develop joint problems a year or two years after surgery

Temaki Sushi had you ever contacted Dr Giotikas before contacting Dr Dongoon? Did he reject you because of BDD or something else? I am only asking because I do know that Dr Giotikas has specific selection criteria for his patients and I cannot think of any other explanation of your obsession with him except for revenge because of bitterness of rejection.

[Ghostfish]

One of the downsides to Greece that I agree with is their pain management is unlike that of the US. So just be aware and prepared mentally when you go overseas in other countries esp Asia and Europe for this surgery, they are more wary and hesitant of prescribing stronger meds such as opiods for pain. These other countries want to curtail opiod addiction and have less of an opiod epidemic than the US. In the US, normally surgeons prescribe Percocet(oxycodone) or Vicodin(hydrocodone) for those who undergo orthopedic procedures to take every 4-6 hours to effectively manage their pain after surgery. This helps patient sleep. Downside to pain med is constipation, slower bone healing, vomiting, and potential of addiction. Tramadol, ibuprofen, aspirin for pain and neurontin, lyrica for nerve is what you see more often in some of the overseas diaries out there reporting to have available for their pain management.

Hi cobalt
I don't really know how Europe or Greece controls the pain management.  But I can tell you that in US, docs are very hesitant of prescribing oxycodone, even tramadol.  When I was in Paley institute, I received oxy only for about 2 weeks after surgery.  After that, there was no more pain prescription.  I wish I would have got more oxy, but was refused to get more oxys not even tramadol.  That was one of my complaints about Paley institute.