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[fivefootthree]

Hi everyone,

I'm very new to this. Until a couple of years ago I had never heard of this procedure, and until a couple of months ago I thought it was not a viable option for most people who value their mobility.
But at 5'3" (22 yo) I'd really like to think I have the option to get to 5'6"- 5'7". I'm doing alright with regards to dating as well as my job. I'm physically fit for my height and decent looking so height only detracts so much. I honestly don't know why I want this surgery, I think I'm just tired of being perceived as somehow being physically inferior to people who are taller than me but less fit and with no martial arts training. At 5'6"-5'7" this surgery would put me in good company with world renown MMA fighters and boxers, so I wouldn't mind my height as much. For whaetevr reason I feel 5'7" is my ideal height and I wouldn't really want to be any taller.

The way I found out about this surgery is kind of interesting. I was working in a chiropractor's office when I was 19 and we had this Persian lady as a patient. She just passably mentioned this surgery to me and told me her son performs it, she mentioned his name and I remembered it somehow (I'm usually bad with names). At the time I thought it was presumptuous of her to think I'd even want to undergo such a procedure but I retained the memory of this conversation and moved on with my life. Years later, I decided to look up LL and turns out she was talking about Dr. Mahboubian who seems to be one of the leading names in the field (correct me if I'm wrong). Small world...

Anyways, I have a few questions to get me started on this journey. First of all, I'm planning to get LL done after I'm 26. By that time I reckon I'd have enough saved up (my parents are willing to help as well financially, though they're understandably concerned about the procedure). I don't want to gamble with my health, so I see Paley as the only choice (again, correct me if I'm wrong). Assuming cost is not a factor, which doctor would you recommend? And how much would the total cost be for the procedure with this doctor?
How long a time to recover for a 3"-4" increase and how soon, if ever, can I be back at the gym or in the ring?
Is this procedure really a thing or is it mostly wishful thinking for shorter guys and girls?
How would you rank LL in terms of risk/reward compared to other surgeries that people routinely get?
I was watching a video by Dr. Mahboubian and he mentioned how LL is a "minimally invasive" surgery. What does that mean? Was he just downplaying the risks associated with LL or is it really tame compared to some other surgeries.
What are some must read threads for all newcomers? Verified success stories? Verified complications?
How would you look for the best doctor, what are some of the things you'd consider?

I'll likely have more questions as I read your answers, but I'll try to keep them at a minimum and read the existing material here first.

Thanks in advance!

[LLSouthAmerica]

Hey 5'3! Imagine this, you are the shortest male I've seen interested in the surgery. I think unlike the other guys who are average in their countries, you could really benefit from the surgery and almost nobody would disagree. First of all I recommend if you have the money to do the surgery as soon as possible (before you are compromised with work and family), and go to Paley or Rozbruch for internal femurs. Cost is around 100k - 130k USD all included excluding complications. Precise 2 can lengthen up to 8 cm (convert it to nonsense units). Time to recovery is patient dependent ( you can get back to work as early as 3 months post op with Guichet, with Precise it is around 5-6 months). This is the time patient usually leave crutches, but that doesn't mean you will walk normally. It can take up to a year or more for recovery of sport ability and normal gait.

Finally, LL surgery is a clean, not extremely delicate procedure (I mean intramedullary nailing) and a lot of doctors have done it for years. The surgery in itself have risks as any other. However, to reduce the complications to the surgery is naive. There are many complications either from the surgery, from the lengthening itself, and from the fracture healing. The results are sometimes unpredictable.

PS. If you can avoid doing the surgery and you can be happy without it, don't do it

[fivefootthree]

Hey 5'3! Imagine this, you are the shortest male I've seen interested in the surgery. I think unlike the other guys who are average in their countries, you could really benefit from the surgery and almost nobody would disagree. First of all I recommend if you have the money to do the surgery as soon as possible (before you are compromised with work and family), and go to Paley or Rozbruch for internal femurs. Cost is around 100k - 130k USD all included excluding complications. Precise 2 can lengthen up to 8 cm (convert it to nonsense units). Time to recovery is patient dependent ( you can get back to work as early as 3 months post op with Guichet, with Precise it is around 5-6 months). This is the time patient usually leave crutches, but that doesn't mean you will walk normally. It can take up to a year or more for recovery of sport ability and normal gait.

Finally, LL surgery is a clean, not extremely delicate procedure (I mean intramedullary nailing) and a lot of doctors have done it for years. The surgery in itself have risks as any other. However, to reduce the complications to the surgery is naive. There are many complications either from the surgery, from the lengthening itself, and from the fracture healing. The results are sometimes unpredictable.

PS. If you can avoid doing the surgery and you can be happy without it, don't do it

That's really informative. Which method does Giuchet use? An external fixator? I mean I'd imagine a 3 month recovery period would be a major selling point for this method. Why is Precise 2 the recommended option? Because of few external scars? Or is there more to it?
Also, regarding Rozbruch, is he as safe an option as Paley? I just looked him up and he's in LA so he'd be a great choice for me.
What percentage of patients would you say experience a net loss of sport ability even after a year of recovery? Do these things happen with Paley's and Rozbruch's patients as well?

[LLSouthAmerica]

Also internal lengthening but with a weightbearing rod like Betz. It is indeed. However, I would recommend Precise because it has a few features which really make a difference such as the reverse function that allows compressing the bone in cases of delayed or non-healing. This is not the case with the older Albizzia nails. However, in my experience young males heal very well. Still I see as an end point being back to normal (no matter if it takes longer) and with Precise which is FDA approved and a US doctor where there are many laws regarding patient safety, you are in good hands.

[LLSouthAmerica]

That's really informative. Which method does Giuchet use? An external fixator? I mean I'd imagine a 3 month recovery period would be a major selling point for this method. Why is Precise 2 the recommended option? Because of few external scars? Or is there more to it?
Also, regarding Rozbruch, is he as safe an option as Paley? I just looked him up and he's in LA so he'd be a great choice for me.
What percentage of patients would you say experience a net loss of sport ability even after a year of recovery? Do these things happen with Paley's and Rozbruch's patients as well?

Try to read more about LL, as the last questions made me realize you are not fully aware of the scale of this procedure.

[Alu]

Aiming for 8-10 CM (3-4 inches) is reasonable if done properly. I believe that is if you do quadrilateral LL for max gain and max recovery. Which means procedures in both the tibia and the femurs; it doesn't have to me simultaneous too. For you, and me, the best patients to look at are Paley patients.

You can follow Iamready and DoingItForMe. Iamready did quadrilateral (all segments really close together) for a gain of 11 CM; which is a very big gain tbh. DoingItForMe did 8 CM all on the femurs. Both seem to have done relatively great and best of all, their diaries are jam packed with information (be warned Iamready did video diaries at one point so if it becomes vague or lacking that's why).

I tell you to read up on their diaries because it can be motivational to do so, and more than anything, reading diaries is the best way to form your opinion on the matter. This leads into my final and most important advice here: read the diaries only. You'll see some crazy talk here and there about absolutes, generalizations, etc. You seem like a smart enough person not to fall for that, but I found at one point the longer I was here the more mad I became. My final advice, get what you need and bail. If you have any other questions just feel free to PM me (I get the notification on email so I can check).

[fivefootthree]

Try to read more about LL, as the last questions made me realize you are not fully aware of the scale of this procedure.

Thank you!
I most definitely intend to do so, I'm only now taking the first steps.
By the way, do you have a diary of your experience I can read?

[fivefootthree]

Aiming for 8-10 CM (3-4 inches) is reasonable if done properly. I believe that is if you do quadrilateral LL for max gain and max recovery. Which means procedures in both the tibia and the femurs; it doesn't have to me simultaneous too. For you, and me, the best patients to look at are Paley patients.

You can follow Iamready and DoingItForMe. Iamready did quadrilateral (all segments really close together) for a gain of 11 CM; which is a very big gain tbh. DoingItForMe did 8 CM all on the femurs. Both seem to have done relatively great and best of all, their diaries are jam packed with information (be warned Iamready did video diaries at one point so if it becomes vague or lacking that's why).

I tell you to read up on their diaries because it can be motivational to do so, and more than anything, reading diaries is the best way to form your opinion on the matter. This leads into my final and most important advice here: read the diaries only. You'll see some crazy talk here and there about absolutes, generalizations, etc. You seem like a smart enough person not to fall for that, but I found at one point the longer I was here the more mad I became. My final advice, get what you need and bail. If you have any other questions just feel free to PM me (I get the notification on email so I can check).

These are some great leads, and sound advise. I don't think I'll do quadrilateral because I'm deathly afraid of fat embolism. If 8 cm is the max per segment I'll settle for that on my femus, which I hear is a simpler procedure than tibia lengthening. Plus I suspect my femurs are disproportionately small anyway, so this wouldn't mess up my proportions much.
(Speaking of proportions, is there a good thread for instructions in creating a mockup for your post-surgery proportions?)

Also, if I may ask, have you done the procedure yourself? If not when are you planning to do it?

[Alu]

These are some great leads, and sound advise. I don't think I'll do quadrilateral because I'm deathly afraid of fat embolism. If 8 cm is the max per segment I'll settle for that on my femus, which I hear is a simpler procedure than tibia lengthening. Plus I suspect my femurs are disproportionately small anyway, so this wouldn't mess up my proportions much.
(Speaking of proportions, is there a good thread for instructions in creating a mockup for your post-surgery proportions?)

Also, if I may ask, have you done the procedure yourself? If not when are you planning to do it?

No not yet, probably in the next 2-3 years at this point, life's been well so I'm not rushing it. You can ask Kilo and TIBIKE for mock-up help if you so need it (I've lost the thread that talks about it). I'm planning on doing Quads like Iamready because I can get 4-5 CM on each segment for max gain, better proportionality in my legs, and better recovery for each segment. Is it going to be hard, costly, and time consuming? Yes, which is why I'm planning this out. Also with Quad you don't have to do it all in the same time, you could do one segment, consolidate and return; or wait like 1 month between one surgery and the other. Another great source of information is Paley's website (paleyinstitute) on quadrilateral.

Also, I didn't mention it, but wow you met Mahboubian's mom? Haha, like son like mother it seems getting people interested in LL. See if you can talk about it with him, he might give you a discount lol. He's a competent doctor after all.

[1683131665]

Your wingspan support you for 12CM Lengthening?

[fivefootthree]

No not yet, probably in the next 2-3 years at this point, life's been well so I'm not rushing it. You can ask Kilo and TIBIKE for mock-up help if you so need it (I've lost the thread that talks about it). I'm planning on doing Quads like Iamready because I can get 4-5 CM on each segment for max gain, better proportionality in my legs, and better recovery for each segment. Is it going to be hard, costly, and time consuming? Yes, which is why I'm planning this out. Also with Quad you don't have to do it all in the same time, you could do one segment, consolidate and return; or wait like 1 month between one surgery and the other. Another great source of information is Paley's website (paleyinstitute) on quadrilateral.

Also, I didn't mention it, but wow you met Mahboubian's mom? Haha, like son like mother it seems getting people interested in LL. See if you can talk about it with him, he might give you a discount lol. He's a competent doctor after all.

Ultimately I guess the end decision will depend on the assessment by the doctor. If he says quad, I'll save up more I guess.

Yeah. She brought it up without any incitation too lol. I don't think Mahboubian does Precise 2, does he?

[fivefootthree]

Why 12 cm? That's almost 5 inches. I'd be happy with 8-9 cm.
What's the relationship between the wingspan and height anyway? They're supposed to be equal?

[Penguinn]

Why 12 cm? That's almost 5 inches. I'd be happy with 8-9 cm.
What's the relationship between the wingspan and height anyway? They're supposed to be equal?

If you'd be happy with 3 inches(around 7.5cms), do 1 segment. If you think you need 9cms(let's say 10), then I suggest doing both tibias and femurs, 5cms each. The difference between 5'3 and 5'7 is massive. No doubt about that.

The relationship between your wingspan and height is that if your wingspan is lesser than your height by 3"/8cms or more, it starts to look weird. This is just a general rule of thumb. Most people's wingspans are slightly longer than their height(+2 inches is the most common), but some have a wingspan the same as their height.

[6FeetSoon]

Also, regarding Rozbruch, is he as safe an option as Paley? I just looked him up and he's in LA so he'd be a great choice for me.

Neither Paley nor Rozbruch are in LA.
As for Rozbruch in NYC, you will not be disappointed. The man is legendary. I'm a current patient.

[onemorefoot]

Hi, 5 3", I read you dont want to Play with your health as nobody, usa has a good law system in case something goes wrong, opposite to germany, where you can be fk€&# And nobody gives a doe, so good point. About Paley, he is the most popular doctor probably together with the Indian doctor, but I cant say if he is the best, a nail can be inserted by an average surgeon And everything can go well.About the surgery, It is pretty invasive, imagine the surgery lasts almost 5 hours and there is a risk of fat embol, that is less probable with external fixators, but for femurs the only safe And rational option are Internal Nails, do It the youngest you can, your Bones Will be grateful . At 5 3" you should try 4 or 5 inches, try to gain the most you can in femurs, tibia is complicated as itself, becuase of tendon achillis And the bone is shorter, Hope to read your diary, good Luck!

[fivefootthree]

If you'd be happy with 3 inches(around 7.5cms), do 1 segment. If you think you need 9cms(let's say 10), then I suggest doing both tibias and femurs, 5cms each. The difference between 5'3 and 5'7 is massive. No doubt about that.

The relationship between your wingspan and height is that if your wingspan is lesser than your height by 3"/8cms or more, it starts to look weird. This is just a general rule of thumb. Most people's wingspans are slightly longer than their height(+2 inches is the most common), but some have a wingspan the same as their height.

That's great to know!
I just measured mine (against the wall, fingertip to fingertip) and it was 65.5" (5'5.5") so I should be good for 5'7". Feels great to know that honestly.

[fivefootthree]

Hi, 5 3", I read you dont want to Play with your health as nobody, usa has a good law system in case something goes wrong, opposite to germany, where you can be fk€&# And nobody gives a doe, so good point. About Paley, he is the most popular doctor probably together with the Indian doctor, but I cant say if he is the best, a nail can be inserted by an average surgeon And everything can go well.About the surgery, It is pretty invasive, imagine the surgery lasts almost 5 hours and there is a risk of fat embol, that is less probable with external fixators, but for femurs the only safe And rational option are Internal Nails, do It the youngest you can, your Bones Will be grateful . At 5 3" you should try 4 or 5 inches, try to gain the most you can in femurs, tibia is complicated as itself, becuase of tendon achillis And the bone is shorter, Hope to read your diary, good Luck!

Yeah, honestly fat embolism scares the s*** out of me. As far as I know Paley never had anything like that happen. Also I gather that embolism can happen during any surgery and it's completely random. I just wish I had stats of how frequently this happens.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of multiple surgeries. I'd just like to get one done and go on with my life. I'd feel perfectly comfortable being 5'6" in LA. How often would you say the 8cm target length is reached? Because I know it depends on how the patient is doing.

[onemorefoot]

If you are Young, 8 cm can be added in femurs without too much problem, surgeons do It band release so it helps, about fat emb, dont worry, is not very probable, if It happens can be solved by the doctor, is not mortal like in the past.

[KiloKAHN]

Yeah, honestly fat embolism scares the s*** out of me. As far as I know Paley never had anything like that happen.

BilateralDamage had surgery with Dr Paley and he had embolism. It was treated, but was still scary for sure.

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=237.msg11637#msg11637

[fivefootthree]

BilateralDamage had surgery with Dr Paley and he had embolism. It was treated, but was still scary for sure.

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=237.msg11637#msg11637

Jesus... He had two patients with fat embolism. The fact that both were treated is slightly reassuring though.
I have a lot of reading to do.

[fivefootthree]

If you are Young, 8 cm can be added in femurs without too much problem, surgeons do It band release so it helps, about fat emb, dont worry, is not very probable, if It happens can be solved by the doctor, is not mortal like in the past.

What's band release? I tried to look it up but couldn't make sense of the search results.
That's good to know, I was under the impression embolism was a death sentence.

[KiloKAHN]

What's band release? I tried to look it up but couldn't make sense of the search results.
That's good to know, I was under the impression embolism was a death sentence.

It's where they cut the iliotibial band in order to lengthen it a bit and let it heal up later, which reduces tightness. Most orthopedic surgeons say it's not a big deal, although I did find an article where it suggests that doing it can lead to destruction of knee cartilage over time. 

https://www.regenexx.com/iliotibial-band-itb-release-surgery/