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[W]

Hi Aditya,

I went to Guichet because I read the diaries and they were all SO SUCCESSFUL, EASY and FAST (Leechlet, ShyShy etc), and it was in London where I could be at home (which was important for me).

I had spent more than £155k on recovery

I'm starting my CLL journey, and I like you followed Leechlet and have Guichet in mind because location (London). In retrospect was having it done locally an advantage, or would you say you might as well have been overseas because of being indoors so much?

I also know that "certain doctors" have switched/operate in multiple countries, and it always seemed odd to me.

I always thought it was because the market in France and Italy is much smaller compared to London (European capital of rich short guys).

Only a moron would go to Guichet. He is mayve the worst case of LL doctor out there.

Let's not get carried away. He still is probably one of the 'better' doctors out there. I think the problem is by keeping Gnail to himself there is far less R&D, that's the main reason that's putting me off from going to Guichet.

I don't think Guichet is a bad surgeon at all. But I think he can definitely be a callous jerk. I had a good result, and I know MANY others who had as well.

But in re-thinking things, since I had the money to even go to Guichet...or for anyone who has the money to...maybe it's best to go to Rozbruch?

Do you think that if you went to Rozbruch you might have said the opposite about Guichet? Grass isn't always greener 

[W]

2-4 weeks of muscle training before surgery makes zero difference and the cybex tests to measure muscle improvements (at an additional charge, of course) were all circus hoops for us to jump through.

His analogy is it's like tuning a car before a race. Yeah, because we are stretching a car 

[Unicorn888 by Elaine Foo]

I think to generalize that women have less of a need to do CLL than men do, invalidates our suffering and discrimination experienced as short women.

Anyone - male, female, transgender, has just an important a reason to do CLL no matter how trivial.  The very fact that anyone is willing to succumb themselves to so much risk, pain and cost, to willingly break both legs would probably have suffered enough of short stature discrimination and feelings of innadequacy to resort to such desperate action.

So PLEASE, don't tell women that it's less necessary for them than it is for men, and then turn on the tv and enjoy Victoria Secret Angels strutting down the runway.  At the work place, believe it or not, taller women are often more successful than their shorter counterparts of the same calibre. 

Even as early as elementary or secondary school, you'll often find leaders to be the taller ones in the class.  Why is this one attribute so important that it makes us this obsessed?  Perhaps we've been conditioned psychologically from an early age that being taller than those around us was enough reason to garner praise (as if we had any control over height as we do with having brains or looks!!!).  But no matter how illogical, height is viewed as an "achievement" by the people from whom we seek approval, and probably on whom we should blame for our short genes.

The fact that a few men in this forum had to qualify that the short women they know are smart, is exactly the kind of insult and discrimination we short females often get slapped with.  It's like saying, yes it's a monkey BUT this monkey can tell time.  I've often heard so many times, "she's little BUT what a firecracker" and it's supposed to be a compliment!  Because short women are usually lame?  Or simply invisible?

So, please stop with the generalization that men have a superior need to get ahead in their careers, earn more or find ideal partners than women do.  We're no longer living in the '50s, women today often are the sole breadwinners and need just an equal advantage or more, just to stay in the same level playing field.  It's not like women today can expect most men to gallantly take care of them financially to warrant men needing to earn more than women do.  We've reached an age of equality, in the eyes of the beneficiary only.

So, if we can all agree to disagree, being taller is a universal desire and a proven signal of superiority (no matter how irrational) in all the aspects of life that matter, and if you're reading this, you would have had at some point felt innadequate for this very reason.

I think if all my suffering were to bring meaning and value to you readers : if you're female and/or older (and god forbid east Asian too), healing may be slower / more complications.  In this case, perhaps an external fixator with no internal reaming, might be recommended.  Or at least, use a nail that can reverse when there's non-union.  And don't be fooled by all the success stories that outnumber the horror ones which often go untold.  Seriously, the amount of people who write me about their nightmares (including several suicide attempts due to botched up lives) convinces me now that this surgery is not worth the risk, and this forum covers just the very tip of the iceberg of patient experiences.

I am pleasantly surprised to hear that the russian institute does not accept patients above 40.  There has to be a correlation btw non-union the older we get, as Paley concludes in turning away smokers.

[Body Builder]

Men need height much more than women.
The ideal for men is tall dark and handsome. For women height is not necesarry, on the contrary many men prefer short women much more than tall ones.
Women who prefer short men over tall ones are very very few, so few as men who like fat women.

So yes, even if in carreer of a woman height plays a good role (which I believe it does), the thing that height play no role on a woman's attractiveness (unless she is very short which is still not worse as being veey tall) is more than enough to say that height is much more important for men than women.
For you Unicorn almost nothing would change after LL, for me many things change and especially if I do another LL and reach 1.80+ my whole life will be completely different.

But we are offtopic and I don't judge you of course for your choice, that has norhing to do with the bs Guichet did to you.
But whatever anyone say, height determines in a great degree the life of a man while attractiveness (good face and a fit body) determines the lifw of a woman in a great degree, not height.

[Android]

Wholeheartedly agree with Unicorn. While many more women are comfortable with their short stature than men are due to embracing positive identities like petite, which have no male equivalent, shorter women are also relegated to "cute." Most grown men hate to be called a boy, and many women don't like being called a girl into adulthood either.

No matter the gender, as long as you don't identify with what people label you as, it's frustrating. The demeaning examples she gave would infuriate many men; somehow a few of us have lost empathy, instead telling Unicorn to cope.

Additionally many women want longer legs in general, because they're seen as attractive. If you think that height isn't as important for women, then perhaps you can consider that women want enhanced proportions.

Cosmetic surgery in general isn't a need, it's a want. It's something we do since we refuse to accept reality, found a solution, and have the means to change it. I don't see why we need gatekeeping especially at the gender level, it's misogynistic to label stature lengthening as a surgery for bros even if the majority of patients are young men.

[lucindaris]

Your life will not be completely different. You will not be tall, maybe closer to average, that's all. Life becomes completely different after gettin so much money and reputation among important ppl after that u stop thinking about this procedure. You can succeed even when you are below 160 like Jack Ma. For average ppl like us its not understandable, if you focus more on badoo/tinder or going to club for one night episode social pressure affects You badly.

[Body Builder]

Wholeheartedly agree with Unicorn. While many more women are comfortable with their short stature than men are due to embracing positive identities like petite, which have no male equivalent, shorter women are also relegated to "cute." Most grown men hate to be called a boy, and many women don't like being called a girl into adulthood either.

No matter the gender, as long as you don't identify with what people label you as, it's frustrating. The demeaning examples she gave would infuriate many men; somehow a few of us have lost empathy, instead telling Unicorn to cope.

Additionally many women want longer legs in general, because they're seen as attractive. If you think that height isn't as important for women, then perhaps you can consider that women want enhanced proportions.

Cosmetic surgery in general isn't a need, it's a want. It's something we do since we refuse to accept reality, found a solution, and have the means to change it. I don't see why we need gatekeeping especially at the gender level, it's misogynistic to label stature lengthening as a surgery for bros even if the majority of patients are young men.

Because if men would describe the ideal women's body, the first trait would be fit.
If women would do the same on men's body, the first they would say is tall. And furthermore, many men would prefer a short woman over a tall one while almost no woman would prefer a short man over a tall one.
This is no misogynistic, this is the truth.
Thats why women get crazy if they get 1-2 kilos while men simply don't care unless they become really obese. Because being thin is not important for men while for women is the most important thing.

That said, I don't disapprove any short woman to get LL but no, women who are near average and more (5.3ft and up) and want LL is like 6+ft weirdos men who want LL. In both cases, LL won't improve their life and the risks they take are for nothing.

[Android]

Because if men would describe the ideal women's body, the first trait would be fit.
If women would do the same on men's body, the first they would say is tall. And furthermore, many men would prefer a short woman over a tall one while almost no woman would prefer a short man over a tall one.

That said, I don't disapprove any short woman to get LL but no, women who are near average and more (5.3ft and up) and want LL is like 6+ft weirdos men who want LL. In both cases, LL won't improve their life and the risks they take are for nothing.

I agree that women are much more sensitive to BMI, and men are much more sensitive to women's BMI as well. Workplace discrimination toward overweight women is analogous to short men after all.

But let's get real here, many women want to impress each other, not other men. Male preference for shorter women doesn't do squat in the workplace if what you want is respect.

The average height for a woman in the UK is 5'3". So it's not like a 6 ft+ man wanting CLL, but more like a 5'9" man wanting to become a member of the 6 ft club; slightly below average to taller than average. Hell, I wish I could be average height so I could be tall, but I'll settle for average!

[myloginacct]

I think to generalize that women have less of a need to do CLL than men do, invalidates our suffering and discrimination experienced as short women.

Anyone - male, female, transgender, has just an important a reason to do CLL no matter how trivial.  The very fact that anyone is willing to succumb themselves to so much risk, pain and cost, to willingly break both legs would probably have suffered enough of short stature discrimination and feelings of innadequacy to resort to such desperate action.

So PLEASE, don't tell women that it's less necessary for them than it is for men, and then turn on the tv and enjoy Victoria Secret Angels strutting down the runway.  At the work place, believe it or not, taller women are often more successful than their shorter counterparts of the same calibre. 

Even as early as elementary or secondary school, you'll often find leaders to be the taller ones in the class.  Why is this one attribute so important that it makes us this obsessed?  Perhaps we've been conditioned psychologically from an early age that being taller than those around us was enough reason to garner praise (as if we had any control over height as we do with having brains or looks!!!).  But no matter how illogical, height is viewed as an "achievement" by the people from whom we seek approval, and probably on whom we should blame for our short genes.

The fact that a few men in this forum had to qualify that the short women they know are smart, is exactly the kind of insult and discrimination we short females often get slapped with.  It's like saying, yes it's a monkey BUT this monkey can tell time.  I've often heard so many times, "she's little BUT what a firecracker" and it's supposed to be a compliment!  Because short women are usually lame?  Or simply invisible?

So, please stop with the generalization that men have a superior need to get ahead in their careers, earn more or find ideal partners than women do.  We're no longer living in the '50s, women today often are the sole breadwinners and need just an equal advantage or more, just to stay in the same level playing field.  It's not like women today can expect most men to gallantly take care of them financially to warrant men needing to earn more than women do.  We've reached an age of equality, in the eyes of the beneficiary only.

So, if we can all agree to disagree, being taller is a universal desire and a proven signal of superiority (no matter how irrational) in all the aspects of life that matter, and if you're reading this, you would have had at some point felt innadequate for this very reason.

I think if all my suffering were to bring meaning and value to you readers : if you're female and/or older (and god forbid east Asian too), healing may be slower / more complications.  In this case, perhaps an external fixator with no internal reaming, might be recommended.  Or at least, use a nail that can reverse when there's non-union.  And don't be fooled by all the success stories that outnumber the horror ones which often go untold.  Seriously, the amount of people who write me about their nightmares (including several suicide attempts due to botched up lives) convinces me now that this surgery is not worth the risk, and this forum covers just the very tip of the iceberg of patient experiences.

I am pleasantly surprised to hear that the russian institute does not accept patients above 40.  There has to be a correlation btw non-union the older we get, as Paley concludes in turning away smokers.

I agree with you about the suffering and discrimination. Those are all individual experiences. It's like when people tell others they cannot suffer due to X because of Y people in Z situation. When talking about depression and similar topics, this generally ends up being: you shouldn't suffer that much because of the starving children in Africa, or something along those lines. The absolutely most appalling human situations happening and existing can't, and won't, make other subjective experiences of suffering lighter on everyone else. Generally, high levels of suffering require stronger stimuli, but this isn't always the case for everyone. Hence the need for empathy and to help others with their problems. I'd much rather see someone in a more developed society become happier than have both that person and the African kids stay miserable. 

By the way, the wikipedia page on nonunion lists old age and smokers as risk groups. However, the science on bone healing regarding "old age" is still mixed, so a lot of CLL doctors are willing to perform on people in their 40~50s. Some studies have shown better bone healing in older age brackets. Yet, the way I see it, it's better being safe than sorry. 

And here are the requirements of the Ilizarov center in Russia.

I've considered starting a thread about LL risk groups, but I'm just a layman. I definitely think people who fall under too many of them should be first shown the door by any ethical doctor. If, for some reason, they believe the patient in question can make it despite their risk factors, or believe the patient is willing and consenting enough despite their risk factors, those patients should be shown the utmost care and attention to detail by the doctor in question, who should be aware of all factors, and who should make the patient aware of them in their initial consultation --- so the doctor is sure their patient is making a fully informed decision. But this is CLL, and doctors like that seem to be dime a dozen...

Cosmetic surgery in general isn't a need, it's a want. It's something we do since we refuse to accept reality, found a solution, and have the means to change it. I don't see why we need gatekeeping especially at the gender level, it's misogynistic to label stature lengthening as a surgery for bros even if the majority of patients are young men.

We don't need gatekeepers, but we need reality and fact checkers. Make sure everyone is aware of the risk factors involving all these procedures. And ideally, I'd like to see doctors turn away people who are obvious lost cases. Paley already rejects all the desperate enough people, who try to do things such as mortgaging their houses without spousal knowledge to pay for their CLL. I'd like to see a 60 year old, frail, 155cm Asian man with a lifetime history of smoking and alcoholism, and who comes to one of these doctors wanting to lengthen no less than 9cm in his tibias, eating his usual low-protein, low-caloric diet to be immediately shown the door, not be told "let's start and see how it goes; 9cm is an ambitious goal, you know" after they think of the cash, or that it was the patient's own decision.

[Petite888]

Hi Unicorn,

I have been reading your journal from beginning to end over the last couple of weeks and what a rollercoaster you have been on!

 I turned 40 this year, am female and am of SE Asian desent, living in the U.K, and before I came across your journal, was strongly considering Guichet as an option for CLL.  Thank you so much for your journal, as without it I might have gone ahead with it!

Please stay strong and and positive as there will be an after and I believe for you, it will be a great after. I am so glad to hear that you have a little callus formation on one side, hopefully this will improve after bone graft.

Reading through Doctor Donghoon’s blog, it seems he uses stem cell to help with poor bone formation? Is this something that could possibly help you?He is my strongest option at the moment because of this and Also because I read he is an artist when it comes to cuts/scars.

Wishing you you miraculous recovery and sending you much love 💕.

[YellowSpike]

Because if men would describe the ideal women's body, the first trait would be fit.
If women would do the same on men's body, the first they would say is tall. And furthermore, many men would prefer a short woman over a tall one while almost no woman would prefer a short man over a tall one.
This is no misogynistic, this is the truth.
Thats why women get crazy if they get 1-2 kilos while men simply don't care unless they become really obese. Because being thin is not important for men while for women is the most important thing.

That said, I don't disapprove any short woman to get LL but no, women who are near average and more (5.3ft and up) and want LL is like 6+ft weirdos men who want LL. In both cases, LL won't improve their life and the risks they take are for nothing.

Agreed on all fronts. While I don't disapprove of women doing LL, I was just trying to state that the increased risks (women seem to have an easier time lengthening but a harder time with bone regeneration/recovery) aren't as worth it. Yes, of course a woman's short stature may have an impact on her life, if people are calling her short/cute, I can see how that would be annoying. Especially when it comes to the workplace.

I know women think that "men just do LL so they can have more dating options," and while that's certainly not untrue, as I said, it has to do with what society expects men to be. A man should be TALL, first and foremost, THEN good looking, in shape, financially successful, confident (which depends greatly on these factors to begin with), etc. Many people, women and men alike, do not see short men as "real men," and let me tell you, as a man, there is no greater pain than having your masculinity taken away from you. There's also more pressure for us, on a very primal level, to go out there and "land" a woman. I understand we're in 2018 and many women don't think these basic "rules" still apply, but as much as you might deny it, they do. Women still want men to dominate (be more masculine then them in all ways, aka "be the man in the relationship") them physically (not financially, women can and should make as much as we do, and I applaud them for that!), and height is a huge factor in this. Imagine being a very short man with few dating options, unable to afford LL - there's a greater likelihood this man will never find a woman. So you might say "men do LL just to get women," but it's a lot deeper than that.

Yes, as a short woman, you might get jabs from family and friends and in the workplace, and that I'm sure sucks. I didn't mean to downplay that. And of course, it has to do with your own self image too. But at least your womanhood or attractiveness (in most cases, unless the man in question really likes tall women, which in my opinion most men don't care about womens' height that much) or ability to attract a life partner isn't nearly as greatly reduced.

[Body Builder]

Agreed on all fronts. While I don't disapprove of women doing LL, I was just trying to state that the increased risks (women seem to have an easier time lengthening but a harder time with bone regeneration/recovery) aren't as worth it. Yes, of course a woman's short stature may have an impact on her life, if people are calling her short/cute, I can see how that would be annoying. Especially when it comes to the workplace.

I know women think that "men just do LL so they can have more dating options," and while that's certainly not untrue, as I said, it has to do with what society expects men to be. A man should be TALL, first and foremost, THEN good looking, in shape, financially successful, confident (which depends greatly on these factors to begin with), etc. Many people, women and men alike, do not see short men as "real men," and let me tell you, as a man, there is no greater pain than having your masculinity taken away from you. There's also more pressure for us, on a very primal level, to go out there and "land" a woman. I understand we're in 2018 and many women don't think these basic "rules" still apply, but as much as you might deny it, they do. Women still want men to dominate (be more masculine then them in all ways, aka "be the man in the relationship") them physically (not financially, women can and should make as much as we do, and I applaud them for that!), and height is a huge factor in this. Imagine being a very short man with few dating options, unable to afford LL - there's a greater likelihood this man will never find a woman. So you might say "men do LL just to get women," but it's a lot deeper than that.

Yes, as a short woman, you might get jabs from family and friends and in the workplace, and that I'm sure sucks. I didn't mean to downplay that. And of course, it has to do with your own self image too. But at least your womanhood or attractiveness (in most cases, unless the man in question really likes tall women, which in my opinion most men don't care about womens' height that much) or ability to attract a life partner isn't nearly as greatly reduced.

Well said.

[W]

I turned 40 this year, am female and am of SE Asian desent, living in the U.K, and before I came across your journal, was strongly considering Guichet as an option for CLL.  Thank you so much for your journal, as without it I might have gone ahead with it!

I wouldn't let 1 bad case completely cancel Guichet out, if it did then there wouldn't be a single CLL doctor for you!

[W]

So PLEASE, don't tell women that it's less necessary for them than it is for men

But it is.

Wholeheartedly agree with Unicorn. While many more women are comfortable with their short stature than men are due to embracing positive identities like petite, which have no male equivalent, shorter women are also relegated to "cute." Most grown men hate to be called a boy, and many women don't like being called a girl into adulthood either.

To me it sounds like a woman that's angry because she's a woman rather than because she's shorter. It's almost like you're getting surgery to be more like a man.

Men need height much more than women.
The ideal for men is tall dark and handsome. For women height is not necesarry, on the contrary many men prefer short women much more than tall ones.
Women who prefer short men over tall ones are very very few, so few as men who like fat women.

Men that like fat women are like women that like short guys — they are liars. You have a good point, there is a 'market' for women of all heights, but for men it's almost entirely in the 5'9-6'2" category.

[Unicorn888 by Elaine Foo]

Another observation just from reading your opinions.

And my goal is not to make myself enemy no 1 of all the men out here.  My summary from your posts : Men tend to want CLL because they feel innadequate when it comes to attracting partners - which could be emasculating all around.

From all the women that I've come across who did CLL, our goal is not to use height to attract men.  We think a pretty face, nice long hair, being feminine, nice personality, good taste in clothes, sxxy shoes and obviously, being fit all helps.

HOWEVER, most of us (me included) mainly want CLL because of the emotional scars from a lifetime of not being taken seriously because we look like little girls.  And we're lucky that women can correct unattractiveness with make overs etc, but to suffer 4 inch heels at work everyday for 20 years just ultimately kills you.  I did spend almost every standing moment of the work day obsessing about my painful feet.

While men want CLL mostly for mating/earning/acceptance potential, women who do it may just want some gravitas at work (imagine me in a conference room in Zurich, classic setting of all white men board members and little me.  When we're all standing, I'm so tiny they can't tell if I'm there to serve drinks or to direct them).

That said, we've to respect our individual reasons for wanting CLL.  I myself go through so much self hatred when I see myself in a bikini before, it's purely my own mental anguish.  And the last thing in my mind is how I'm going to attract a man by being taller or how I can make all the women envious.

My enemy is myself, staring me down in front of the mirror telling me, I'm not good enough.

[YellowSpike]

Another observation just from reading your opinions.

And my goal is not to make myself enemy no 1 of all the men out here.  My summary from your posts : Men tend to want CLL because they feel innadequate when it comes to attracting partners.

From all the women that I've come across who did CLL, our goal is not to use height to attract men.  We think a pretty face, nice long hair, being feminine, nice personality, good taste in clothes and obviously, being fit all helps.

HOWEVER, most of us (me included) mainly want CLL because of the emotional scars from a lifetime of not being taken seriously because we look like little girls.  And we're lucky that women can correct unattractiveness with make overs etc, but to suffer 4 inch heels at work everyday for 20 years just ultimately kills you.  I did spend almost every standing moment of the work day obsessing about my painful feet.

I agree that men want CLL mostly for mating and earning potential, while women who do it may just want some gravitas at work (imagine me in a conference room in Zurich, classic setting of all white men board members and little me.  When we're all standing, I'm so tiny they can't tell if I'm there to serve drinks or to direct them).

That said, we've to respect our individual reasons for wanting CLL.  I myself go through so much self hatred when I see myself in a bikini before, it's purely my own mental anguish.  And the last thing in my mind is how I'm going to attract a man by being taller or how I can make all the women envious.

My enemy is myself, staring me down in front of the mirror telling me, I'm not good enough.

You are right Unicorn and I am sorry that you had such low self esteem from your height. No one should have to suffer through that.

The only thing I would correct is when you said "Men do LL to be more attractive to better attract partners," while that's true, it's not the whole picture. Men do LL so they can be respected and seen as "real men" by women and other men alike. It's much deeper than just attracting females. Not all women care about height, but the vast majority of them do, and trust me, as a short man, you are also going to experience discrimination and bullying from other men too. And even if you try to hide your height insecurity (like I did), as a man, it is still perfectly acceptable for women and men to outright insult a man due to his height (something he has no control over). If men were to shoot a woman down and call her fat or ugly, we'd be crucified and shamed, but with the double standard, it seems that a man's height is always fair game to actively and publicly shame.

So yes, we do LL to get more women, but also do so to reclaim our masculinity/manhood.

[Unicorn888 by Elaine Foo]

Hi Unicorn,

I have been reading your journal from beginning to end over the last couple of weeks and what a rollercoaster you have been on!

 I turned 40 this year, am female and am of SE Asian desent, living in the U.K, and before I came across your journal, was strongly considering Guichet as an option for CLL.  Thank you so much for your journal, as without it I might have gone ahead with it!

Please stay strong and and positive as there will be an after and I believe for you, it will be a great after. I am so glad to hear that you have a little callus formation on one side, hopefully this will improve after bone graft.

Reading through Doctor Donghoon’s blog, it seems he uses stem cell to help with poor bone formation? Is this something that could possibly help you?He is my strongest option at the moment because of this and Also because I read he is an artist when it comes to cuts/scars.

Wishing you you miraculous recovery and sending you much love 💕.

As far as stemcells go, Guichet had harvested marrow aspirate from my hip bones and injected them into my 9cm runaway non-union gap.  And no, it didn't work and the reason is because the gap is too far apart.  It was like pouring water onto a concrete ground hoping grass will sprout.  It might have worked on an 80-year old lady with a hip fracture or bone fissure.  But not on my whopping grand canyon.

That said, please becareful as an asian female, be conscious about curved femurs, use small nails 11mm, don't over ream, and lengthen slowly (again, it's not a race of who finishes first or with the most height).  And try to use a nail that's remote control instead of manual clicking as it will affect the QUALITY, trauma and pain management of your life tremendously and one that also can stop and reverse should there be slow/non-union.

[Unicorn888 by Elaine Foo]

You are right Unicorn and I am sorry that you had such low self esteem from your height. No one should have to suffer through that.

The only thing I would correct is when you said "Men do LL to be more attractive to better attract partners," while that's true, it's not the whole picture. Men do LL so they can be respected and seen as "real men" by women and other men alike. It's much deeper than just attracting females. Not all women care about height, but the vast majority of them do, and trust me, as a short man, you are also going to experience discrimination and bullying from other men too. And even if you try to hide your height insecurity (like I did), as a man, it is still perfectly acceptable for women and men to outright insult a man due to his height (something he has no control over). If men were to shoot a woman down and call her fat or ugly, we'd be crucified and shamed, but with the double standard, it seems that a man's height is always fair game to actively and publicly shame.

So yes, we do LL to get more women, but also do so to reclaim our masculinity/manhood.

Agree with you Yellowspike.  I don't mean to undermine the reasons why men want CLL.  I think universally, most of us are here for one glaring symptom : short stature neurosis (whether it stems from low self esteem, being bullied, feeling innadequate, not being taken seriously, pay gap, dating/work discrimination etc.)

And with technology (nascent one), there's now this possibility to actually improve our physical form, so that ultimately we can overcome our own mental shortcomings.  How ironic.

[Unicorn888 by Elaine Foo]

I'd like to see a 60 year old, frail, 155cm Asian man with a lifetime history of smoking and alcoholism, and who comes to one of these doctors wanting to lengthen no less than 9cm in his tibias, eating his usual low-protein, low-caloric diet to be immediately shown the door, not be told "let's start and see how it goes; 9cm is an ambitious goal, you know" after they think of the cash, or that it was the patient's own decision.

And I've seen that happen with a 6ft tall older man with a slight mental disability.  Not turned away, but welcomed with open arms 

[myloginacct]

You have a good point, there is a 'market' for women of all heights, but for men it's almost entirely in the 5'9-6'2" category.

More personal anecdotes and height thresholds. What you mean to say is: "for men, it's almost entirely in the [average male height in your country]/[taller than the average upper end of the average female height in your country] category".

Everyone should avoid making posts like "X height is absolute minimum for a man", "Y/Z is too short/too tall for a woman". This is what triggers height neurosis and this is a global forum. Even I have thoughts like this (regarding male height), but I avoid posting them due to this reason.

Your first reaction to reading this post might be to tell me to "deal with it", but I assure you, if posting on this forum was limited to Dutch IPs, most of us would have our height dysphoria triggered by posts like this. "6'0.5" is the absolute minimum for a man", "anything below 5'7.5" is too short for a woman". Those are the averages in the tallest country in the world. Context (country) matters a lot in these discussions.

Another observation just from reading your opinions.

And my goal is not to make myself enemy no 1 of all the men out here.  My summary from your posts : Men tend to want CLL because they feel innadequate when it comes to attracting partners.

From all the women that I've come across who did CLL, our goal is not to use height to attract men.  We think a pretty face, nice long hair, being feminine, nice personality, good taste in clothes and obviously, being fit all helps.

HOWEVER, most of us (me included) mainly want CLL because of the emotional scars from a lifetime of not being taken seriously because we look like little girls.  And we're lucky that women can correct unattractiveness with make overs etc, but to suffer 4 inch heels at work everyday for 20 years just ultimately kills you.  I did spend almost every standing moment of the work day obsessing about my painful feet.

I agree that men want CLL mostly for mating and earning potential, while women who do it may just want some gravitas at work (imagine me in a conference room in Zurich, classic setting of all white men board members and little me.  When we're all standing, I'm so tiny they can't tell if I'm there to serve drinks or to direct them).

That said, we've to respect our individual reasons for wanting CLL.  I myself go through so much self hatred when I see myself in a bikini before, it's purely my own mental anguish.  And the last thing in my mind is how I'm going to attract a man by being taller or how I can make all the women envious.

My enemy is myself, staring me down in front of the mirror telling me, I'm not good enough.

Everyone has their own reasons to want to do a crazy surgery like this. However, the crux of it, at least to me, is obtaining peace of mind. Peace of mind with your own body. I think that's the same for men and women alike, even though it seems a lot is getting lost in translation here.

Men and women tend to feel inadequate about their heights for different reasons, but at the end of the day, that's just the feeling of inadequacy manifesting itself in its different ways.

Getting taller may apparently be the solution to that in people's minds. It is also generally both true with regards to women being treated more seriously, and men getting increased dating options/feeling like "men". Both lead to better peace of mind. Too bad it requires this surgery. (Edit: to get physically taller, at least.)

[goldenegg]

Here's the latest 3D scan and even though my doctor hasn't seen it yet, this is what I measured.  I have some callus bridge on one side of the femur which I think is an improvement.

The other side is still completely empty.  I will definitely consider grafting, that's the only thing NHS wants to do right now.  They do not want to risk further with nail removal, shortening, fitting in new nails and relengthening.

Actually I think this x-ray is the most promising one of your non-union leg so far Unicorn. your xrays before showed no callus at all which was rightfully very concerning. have you done something different because whatever it is it seems to be working! it's still not ideal of course because the bridge is only on one side but the fact that your bone is growing a bridge at all I think is still a million times better than when there was nothing.

Please stay strong Unicorn! I do think there is a light at the end of the tunnel for you and am hoping for the best for you after all you've been through.

 

[YellowSpike]

Yes Unicorn, back on track with your diary (LOL), your latest x-ray looks much better than the others! Maybe your body is finally trying to come through and heal for you! 

[Unicorn888 by Elaine Foo]

Actually I think this x-ray is the most promising one of your non-union leg so far Unicorn. your xrays before showed no callus at all which was rightfully very concerning. have you done something different because whatever it is it seems to be working! it's still not ideal of course because the bridge is only on one side but the fact that your bone is growing a bridge at all I think is still a million times better than when there was nothing.

Please stay strong Unicorn! I do think there is a light at the end of the tunnel for you and am hoping for the best for you after all you've been through.

 

That's what I thought too Goldenegg.  I had done this 3D cone beam at my own expense myself because I wanted to be very sure that I had zero calluses and yet I see some small growth.

That said, I've just returned from NHS and the surgeon said after 2 years, this is not enough especially in light of the recent gnail break of my classmate.  So she wants me to undergo bone grafting in June, and while I'm under, she's going to release the IT band on my left leg because it's the apparent cause of my chronic knee pain.  IT bands can stretch but cannot be lengthened.  So becareful, those of you who lengthen more than 6cm, you've your soft tissues to reckon with and they're way more stubborn than your bones.

Now I'm on level 2 painkillers because codeine nor paracetamol don't work on me anymore.  In addition, I'm on Zopiclone at night to help me STOP thinking about my situation.

So there we are, at 2 years, 4th surgery (not the last one) and hopefully, no complications.  Since it's bone related, I'll be hospitalized 5 days under observation and antibiotics.  The NHS doc is still pessimistic as she's discussed my case at a conference at RNOH (Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital) with a panel of bone experts, and the consensus is a simple graft would not bridge a 9-10cm runaway gap.  If this first attempt fails :

They'll remove my gnail, shorten me by 2cm, implant a trauma nail, extract hip bone and graft again with my own living cells.

This procedure would be very invasive, and I understand quite painful and could haunt me forever in terms of hip pain.

So these are my cards right now.  Unfortunately, no miracle in sight as I had prematurely hoped.

[Unicorn888 by Elaine Foo]

...and trust me, as a short man, you are also going to experience discrimination and bullying from other men too. And even if you try to hide your height insecurity (like I did), as a man, it is still perfectly acceptable for women and men to outright insult a man due to his height (something he has no control over).

Understood... and even Napoleon himself (not to mention Sarkozy) couldn't escape the bullying to this very day...

[Unicorn888 by Elaine Foo]

... have you done something different because whatever it is it seems to be working!

I prescribed myself Forteo shots everyday.  It promotes osteoblasts which grow bones, unlike Actonel that prevents Osteoclasts, which destroy bones.

[Unicorn888 by Elaine Foo]

Both lead to better peace of mind. Too bad it requires this surgery. (Edit: to get physically taller, at least.)

Exactly, to appease our mental anguish.  Same point, lost in translation.

[lucindaris]

Napoleon wasn't short, at least not in terms of his height. 169cm for France and 1769-1821 was normal.

[W]

Napoleon wasn't short, at least not in terms of his height. 169cm for France and 1769-1821 was normal.

Yeah it was British propaganda, he was actually above average for that time.
Even today there are many politicians and billionaires that are 169cm and they aren't made fun of like Napoleon.

[myloginacct]

Yeah it was British propaganda, he was actually above average for that time.
Even today there are many politicians and billionaires that are 169cm and they aren't made fun of like Napoleon.

Even in today's France... Hollande is 170cm and no one makes fun of him (due to his height, at least). They just made fun of Sarkozy (claims 166cm). He was an easy target with his "charming" personality and all the pictures with his model wife, Carla Bruni.

170cm centuries ago was the average height in the tallest countries in the world.

[Annalisa]

Very short women have their womanhood taken away too.  When you're treated like a little girl, rather than a woman, just because of some stupid inches,  you have your womanhood mortified. There are other very important aspect in a person societal interactions, other than getting laid. So, yes, it's worth the risk.

[Annalisa]

Unicorn, I'm sorry. 2 years of this hell, it's absurd. But we all know, that this wouldn't have  happened, if you have had a reversible small nail and a slower lengthening rate. It's true that being an older asian woman, you had more risks, but it's the incompetency of the doctor, the ultimate cause of your problems. I will never thank you enough, for sharing your experience. You are sparing  unknown people a lot of pain and time, due to ignorance.  Learning from one own experience is smart, but learning from others, it's much better.