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[Medium Drink Of Water]

Jeezuz.. I used to read your posts and think 3 inches is nothing for this guy, he has taken so much lengthening and even showed us a video of his performing a human flag - I think i should be fine if i do 3 inch femurs and 2 inch tibie but now.. I'm scared as hell.. I'm only 5'4 and thought i could nicely reach 5'7 or 5'8 (even 5'9) which i'm more than happy for but reading all this.. I wish Limb Lengthening was perfected and people could do it properly without these heinous consequences.

I wish that too, but keep in mind it's major surgery and no surgeon has perfected any type of major surgery.  LL is a big deal with big risks involved.  That's why most doctors won't even do CLL.

[OverrideYouGenetics]

There is a common denominator for all the people having issues after LL: externals

[Taller]

There is a common denominator for all the people having issues after LL: externals

Have you heard of a patient named Amatan... Or Apotheosis for that matter? One had a non-lengthening precise, the other had a "weight-bearing" betzbone nail break, then had a non-union.

[onedayillgrow]

I wish that too, but keep in mind it's major surgery and no surgeon has perfected any type of major surgery.  LL is a big deal with big risks involved.  That's why most doctors won't even do CLL.

What would you say are the biggest risks in Cosmetic Limb Lengthening? I mean could you categorically list all the MAJOR consequences of Limb Lengthening surgery? And are these risks present if someone got 5cm on Tibiae and then a few years later got 5cm on femurs?

Also if you could do it over again MDoW, which would you have done first? Tibiae or Femurs?

[Orlando]

There is a common denominator for all the people having issues after LL: externals

Another common denominator:   malfunction of internal devices and internals rods breaking.     

[OverrideYouGenetics]

Have you heard of a patient named Amatan... Or Apotheosis for that matter? One had a non-lengthening precise, the other had a "weight-bearing" betzbone nail break, then had a non-union.

we are talking about permanent or long-term complications. Not technical issues with the hardware.

[OverrideYouGenetics]

Another common denominator:   malfunction of internal devices and internals rods breaking.     

Ok everyone. Without letting this get out of hand. I thought the topic was long-term / permanent complications with the BODY not the hardware. Yes amatans precice malfunctioned, but that is fixed. it doesnt mean he is going to have long tern knee issues or ankle issues.
Same with all the betz nail bending or breaking. They get titanium replacement and they are back dancing (andrew) and skiing (oldie).

But in external patients case, alot have long term problems with their body. All the people who reported it in this thread did, externals no?

[OverrideYouGenetics]

I concur with this doctor's opinion.  I was hoping the nail removal would improve my knee pain but it did not.

so after 7 years, you still have knee pain caused by LL?

[FrankGarrett]

Rod inserted inside tibia bone = permanent knee pain.

It can happen whether you do internals or external.

[OverrideYouGenetics]

Rod inserted inside tibia bone = permanent knee pain.

It can happen whether you do internals or external.

so all the 100 000 people who undergoes tibial lengthening or correction due to trauma, deformity, dwarfisism are all suffering permanent knee pain.
it all makes sense now. 

[FrankGarrett]

so all the 100 000 people who undergoes tibial lengthening or correction due to trauma, deformity, dwarfisism are all suffering permanent knee pain.
it all makes sense now. 

30% of them anyway. I didn't bother elaborating because I sound like a broken record saying it nearly every time I log on.

[Metanoia]

Ok everyone. Without letting this get out of hand. I thought the topic was long-term / permanent complications with the BODY not the hardware. Yes amatans precice malfunctioned, but that is fixed. it doesnt mean he is going to have long tern knee issues or ankle issues.
Same with all the betz nail bending or breaking. They get titanium replacement and they are back dancing (andrew) and skiing (oldie).

But in external patients case, alot have long term problems with their body. All the people who reported it in this thread did, externals no?

Where did you get your knowledge about these things? There are lots of Betz patients with long term and/or permanent damage. For example, when the nail breaks very often other things break too. Internals are good for femur lengthening. For tibia they are worse than externals for several reasons.
-Knee damage due to rod insertion
-Higher risk of compartment syndrome
-Slower consolidation
-Additional surgery to remove fibula screws

[LLL]

Over 70% actually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramedullary_rod#Complications

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758282

[FrankGarrett]

Another study here showing a huge risk of knee pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8990026

[masche]

Thanks kusop for this interesting topic!

Has anyone heard of long term complications with internal rods? If so, please tell us more about the details - thanks!

Another thing I would like to point out with lengthening a large amount is the risk of having to lengthen the other segment too, as in Talls (old forum ) case:

   

Tall - Internal Tibias - Dr. Mahboubian - 2012 - A PRECICE Journey to Proportion
« on: February 20, 2012, 05:00:11 AM »
As some of you know I competed my Internal Femur LLing with Dr. Augustine Betz in Fall 2006. Since that time I have enjoyed my current height: 188CM. The height increase has been amazing! During the past few years I have been experiencing minor knee pain & discomfort. During various examinations by orthopedic doctors, I have been advised that in order to avoid future problems with my knees (arthritis) that I needed to correct the discrepancy between my femur/tibia ratio which was caused by my femur legthening. Don't get me wrong, I am very proud of my lengthening with Dr. Betz as I was his first 11CM patient. But, this confirms what I already knew & that was that most individuals should not legthen beyond 7.5 CM. I state this in most cases, as I know everyone's body is different and there are exceptions to the rule.

So I will be legthening both of my tibias separately by 6.5 CM with the new PRECICE nail starting on April 5, 2012 in Hollywood, CA with Dr. Shahab Mahboubian, D.O., MPH. Please stay tuned for a detailed diary.

[KiloKAHN]

It's strange how something so significant doesn't ever seem to be discussed by many orthopedic surgeons that perform CLL, or maybe they do and the patients just don't report it.

"Fourteen (67%) of the twenty-one patients treated with transtendinous nailing reported anterior knee pain at the final evaluation. Of these fourteen patients, thirteen were mildly to severely impaired by the pain. Fifteen (71%) of the twenty-one patients treated with paratendinous nailing reported anterior knee pain, and ten of the fifteen were impaired by the pain. The Lysholm, Tegner, and Iowa knee scoring systems; muscle-strength measurements; and functional tests showed no significant differences between the two groups."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11940618

I mean knee pain may be the trade off for people who need an IM nail inserted for trauma or deformity. But for CLL you may as well stick with externals, or discuss with your surgeon if LATP (lengthening and then plating) is an option -I saw a study call it FAP (fixating and plating)  - so you get stabilization and somewhat reduced fixation time (not as reduced as LON/LATN but lower than external) without the anterior knee pain.

[BilateralDamage]

Over 70% actually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramedullary_rod#Complications

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758282

Another study here showing a huge risk of knee pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8990026

These studies should be terrifying to anyone even considering have internal lengthening done.  I'm sure scared 

[BilateralDamage]

I mean knee pain may be the trade off for people who need an IM nail inserted for trauma or deformity. But for CLL you may as well stick with externals, or discuss with your surgeon if LATP (lengthening and then plating) is an option -I saw a study call it FAP (fixating and plating)  - so you get stabilization and somewhat reduced fixation time (not as reduced as LON/LATN but lower than external) without the anterior knee pain.

LATP sounds like a winner to me for when I lengthen my tibiae!

[KiloKAHN]

LATP sounds like a winner to me for when I lengthen my tibiae!

I'm going to discuss with the surgeon about doing that as well. Glad Dr Birkholtz told me about it because I wasn't too excited for external only either.

[KiloKAHN]

the most scary part about Crazy6+'s diary were the mind-boggling positive comments that people posted. I don't know if it was to obey the law and orders of old forum  or not, but I remember when crazy posted a full shot of his body. It looked like he was on stilts. I swear to God, I never seen any person more disproportionate and off-looking. It was a pic taken of him from behind, where he was standing in front of a bed and held his crutches midway up in air.

I cannot remember a single person tell the truth to him. Does anyone still have that pic?

This one?

(Normally I wouldn't post pics from that site, but since Gladiator2012 and Sysop refused to take down pics from Disobedient's friend on old forum , it's only fair).

[Smallguy]

This one?

(Normally I wouldn't post pics from that site, but since Gladiator2012 and Sysop refused to take down pics from Disobedient's friend on old forum , it's only fair).

Oh, this brings back memories. We were having a conversation about height. He said he would only go for white girls now that he's taller. And I ask where would he find white girls in India. It was quite egotistical. So while he stood up, I ask if he feels comfortable with me taking a pic of him. He said sure and while I'm at it, feel free to post it on old forum  for him because a lot of guys were questioning him about his proportion. That was the story.

This pic was taken when he was "skinny." He was much worst, like a ballon when I left.

Anyway, I will maybe do 7cm in the femur instead of they original 8cm which I planned for.

This brings back memories because now I'm thinking about my ex. I'm so out of sync with everyone on this site.

[onedayillgrow]

So if we could get back to the discussion at hand then, i would like to ask everyone with more knowledge than me about limb lengthening. After seeing all the evidence of how disastrous limb lengthening can be at extreme lengths, is 5cm tibs and 5cm femurs a more safer approach/goal?

[Medium Drink Of Water]

So if we could get back to the discussion at hand then, i would like to ask everyone with more knowledge than me about limb lengthening. After seeing all the evidence of how disastrous limb lengthening can be at extreme lengths, is 5cm tibs and 5cm femurs a more safer approach/goal?

Less will always be safer in general, but don't think that you'll be problem-free with 5/5, or guaranteed to have problems over 5/5.  Every body is different.

[OverrideYouGenetics]

This one?

(Normally I wouldn't post pics from that site, but since Gladiator2012 and Sysop refused to take down pics from Disobedient's friend on old forum , it's only fair).

yes thats the one. holy fukcing  .. if anyone needs a warning against disproportion, that pic should be shown first.

[Sweden]

I actually don't have knee pain. It's only both of my ankles that are killing me, literally.
The right one can hurt up to 8-9 when I put load on it.
While sitting down it doesn't feel anything.

I can sense some kind of ache in my knees when I press really hard at the gym in leg sections and leg press.
Other than that - nothing in my knees. And I was running outside in the cold Swedish winter this December too.

Now I'm practically crippled 

Sitting at the hotel room right now in Thailand and need to climb furniture just to get to the bathroom. Right ankle is killing me 

[mediocre]

This thread alone makes me finally decide I won't go more than 6.5 cm (femur).

Is it true crazy+6 went from 5'4" to 5'11"?
That's 17cm!

[Smallguy]

This thread alone makes me finally decide I won't go more than 6.5 cm (femur).

Is it true crazy+6 went from 5'4" to 5'11"?
That's 17cm!

Yeah, you probably read this from me. Haha :-)

My second roommate had bow leg correction in addition to lengthening. He was there to fix his bowleg. Height increase was just a bonus for him. He managed to obtain 7.2cm (his original goal was 8cm like me)

However, for him, he was different from the rest of the patient. He had his legs plated instead of having the nail inserted. Also, with having your legs plated the rate of consolidation is much faster because there are no interference from having the nail. My lower left leg was also plated and it consolidated 3 weeks after frame removal. So I get to experience both having the im nail inserted and having legs plated.

So if you're afraid of having im nail causing you permanent knee pain, then another option would be having your legs plated. I wouldn't go for purely external because you would have to wear the frame for too long.

[just4cm]

Yeah, you probably read this from me. Haha :-)

My second roommate had bow leg correction in addition to lengthening. He was there to fix his bowleg. Height increase was just a bonus for him. He managed to obtain 7.2cm (his original goal was 8cm like me)

However, for him, he was different from the rest of the patient. He had his legs plated instead of having the nail inserted. Also, with having your legs plated the rate of consolidation is much faster because there are no interference from having the nail. My lower left leg was also plated and it consolidated 3 weeks after frame removal. So I get to experience both having the im nail inserted and having legs plated.

So if you're afraid of having im nail causing you permanent knee pain, then another option would be having your legs plated. I wouldn't go for purely external because you would have to wear the frame for too long.

My plan is to correct bow legs I got from playing soccer. Believe me or not but it looks like I was ridding a horse whole my life. Could u please explain a bit more about having legs plated? Would I gain that 4cm I want so bad just with having my legs plated? Does every LL surgeon also do those kind of operation?

[Polycrates.]

Crazy is the typical Indian guy: always chomping at the bit for a white woman. Indeed, where will he find one in India? I haven't seen a single one in the four months I've been here. I wanted him to come and hold himself accountable like a man at the guest house, but I think his proportions might leave too severe a horror in my mind.

[LLL]

It is a fascinating picture and also a little sad. Notice how he's wearing a slightly long sweater as well. With a dress shirt tucked into pants it would look even worse. It's almost shocking that surgeons will allow that kind of height increase, actually. I don't know what's worse, height discrimination or looking like a tall and freaky balloon on stilts? You're only replacing one more or less normal problem with another extremely rare one. How the hell will you explain it to someone? It's one thing for people to try to understand the need for having surgery just to become a little taller, but having multiple surgeries, spending years, only to end up looking like that (not to mention hardly walking normally)?

It's a no-brainer that the average upper body of someone 5'4" will look weird on a 5'11" tall person. It's an 11% increase in height. The same figure applies to Apotheosis, btw. So I can imagine he looks a little like Crazy.

[Smallguy]

The same figure applies to Apotheosis, btw. So I can imagine he looks a little like Crazy.

I wouldn't compare Apoth with Crazy 6. Crazy 6 has a head full of hair which Apoth has none. Having hair helps Crazy look slightly more proportionate. And Apoth lengthen way more than Crazy has, 20cm?

And I wouldn't give Apoth too much credibility. Crazy 6 has an MBA background and managerial experience. I even doubt that Apoth even has a real job with all the hours he spent monitoring old forum . He's more like a cyber junkie with really bad people skill, banning ppl at the slightest mistake.

But if you really want to imagine what Apoth looks like from that photo, you can imagine two white pair of cleanly shaven legs underneath of a man in his 40s with bald head.