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[OverrideYouGenetics]

It seems, more and more people are now waking up and preferring recovery and athleticism.
Our targets are no longer 8,9,10 cms in one limb but rather 5 cm in femur and tibs.

I think this is good. It is just silly to ruin your body just to reach a silly dream created by the the discrimination that we have endured.

What really opened my eyes were;
OldiebutGoldie (6cm) doing skiing just like that. He looked so normal and so recovered, yet it wasnt even 1 year post-op!
Crazy+6 (9cm or something), guy never recovered.
Apotheosis and Tall (did 20cm on two surgeries) - they are both shy of posting videoes. Apo/sysop is posting some strange jogging video which looks so weird.
Few other horror examples from india which I wont mention.

[KiloKAHN]

That seems to be the process of most who find out about CLL. When I first found out about it years ago I had the thought of doing 10cm per segment, but the more I read the more my goals continued to drop. I'm targeting 5.5 cm at max for my tibias. The ones who do extreme lengthening have extreme cases of height neurosis to the point where logic is thrown out the window. Really, what good is 20 cm if you're left with the body of a worn out old man?

[BilateralDamage]

what good is 20 cm if you're left with the body of a worn out old man?

Beautifully said.

With LL, we have the ability to improve our life drastically.  Let's not fk it up now by getting greedy!

[mediocre]

In a way, I thank them 20cm-ers for showing us not to follow them.

It's just amazing how the old forum advocates more, and more.

[KiloKAHN]

In a way, I thank them 20cm-ers for showing us not to follow them.

It's just amazing how the old forum advocates more, and more.

Yes and no. On the one hand, Sysop/Apotheosis does repeat that people probably shouldn't do more than a certain amount on each segment and not follow his example. On the other hand, more people on that forum are potentially going to become delusional in terms of thinking that they can do 20 cm since Sysop downplays or doesn't address problems I'm sure he's having. I think he's fooling himself thinking he'll make a full recovery, but no skin off my nose if he wants to do so.

It is funny to take a step back and see how messed up old forum  is, though. I remember a post where Sysopotheosis said "I'm glad that all of the dumbasses that I've banned now have a place to congregate and spread misinformation about LL" and I was thinking that's very ironic considering that he and his right-hand man Crazy+6 are people who have done pretty much everything that experienced limb lengthening surgeons tell their patients they shouldn't do. Combine that with old forum 's karma and title system which both inflate everyone's egos and encourages threads where 20 people answer a question by saying "shut up and read the diaries" in the hopes one of the "vets" will give them a karma boost, and you have one train wreck of a forum.

[mediocre]

I remember the past, whenever he posted, it's like an all-knowing, narcissistic statements about CLL.

But now I notice that whenever he posts, it's more non-confrontational kumbayas.

He's feeling the heat that old forum  might not survive with the status quo.

It is funny to take a step back and see how messed up old forum  is, though... I remember a post where Sysopotheosis said "I'm glad that all of the dumbasses that I've banned now have a place to congregate and spread misinformation about LL" ...

[Cas]

Crazy+6 did 10+ cm, I believe.... According to an old diary, it says he went from 5'4 to 5'11.... If he did this all in one surgery, I can understand why recovery would be next to impossible. That is a lot of lengthening for one surgery.

"I think this is good. It is just silly to ruin your body just to reach a silly dream created by the the discrimination that we have endured."

I think a lot of people get disillusioned by reality once they find out the truth. When I first found LL several years ago via old forum , I was one of those people that thought I could do 11 or 12 cm like the people writing those diaries. I was completely unaware that people doing that many cm were either going to end up crippled and disabled for the rest of their lives or end up with very off proportions. I understand that there are people out there that are trying to be 6'0 and beyond when they're 5'3 or 5'4 but it isn't realistic. I would rather be average height, than to be 6'0 tall and unable to half walk. I am blessed that I realized and found the truth before I put myself through such trials and tribulations.

[mediocre]

I like that there are doctors like Dr Franz who won't make a six footer out of a 5'4" guy.

I think a lot of people get disillusioned by reality once they find out the truth. When I first found LL several years ago via old forum , I was one of those people that thought I could do 11 or 12 cm like the people writing those diaries. I was completely unaware that people doing that many cm were either going to end up crippled and disabled for the rest of their lives or end up with very off proportions. I understand that there are people out there that are trying to be 6'0 and beyond when they're 5'3 or 5'4 but it isn't realistic. I would rather be average height, than to be 6'0 tall and unable to half walk. I am blessed that I realized and found the truth before I put myself through such trials and tribulations.

[KiloKAHN]

I remember the past, whenever he posted, it's like an all-knowing, narcissistic statements about CLL.

But now I notice that whenever he posts, it's more non-confrontational kumbayas.

He's feeling the heat that old forum  might not survive with the status quo.

Yeah, he even started a thread about removing his recommended doctors list.

Crazy+6 did 10+ cm, I believe....According to an old diary, it says he went from 5'4 to 5'11.... If he did this all in one surgery, I can understand why recovery would be next to impossible. That is a lot of lengthening for one surgery.

He did two surgeries. The first one was external tibias with Drs Patil and Tejwani at SPARSH hospital in Bangalore. Then he did femurs with Dr Sarin in New Delhi. With tibias, Crazy+6 disobeyed the doctors and lengthened more than they advised him to. Although I think the complications with femurs came at fault from both doctor and patient.

One or two surgeries, that's still lengthening way beyond what people would consider a safe amount.

[mediocre]

Hi Kilo, for the record how is crazy+6 now?
Can he run? Does he have severely limited Activities of Daily Living?

How about Apo?

Yeah, he even started a thread about removing his recommended doctors list.


He did two surgeries. The first one was external tibias with Drs Patil and Tejwani at SPARSH hospital in Bangalore. Then he did femurs with Dr Sarin in New Delhi. With tibias, Crazy+6 disobeyed the doctors and lengthened more than they advised him to. Although I think the complications with femurs came at fault from both doctor and patient.

One or two surgeries, that's still lengthening way beyond what people would consider a safe amount.

[KiloKAHN]

Hi Kilo, for the record how is crazy+6 now?
Can he run? Does he have severely limited Activities of Daily Living?

How about Apo?

Last I heard was a few months ago and person who saw him said he would have potentially lifelong problems. Made it seem like he would be near crippled forever. Last I saw of Apo was that video he posted of him on the trampoline.

[OverrideYouGenetics]

the most scary part about Crazy6+'s diary were the mind-boggling positive comments that people posted. I don't know if it was to obey the law and orders of old forum  or not, but I remember when crazy posted a full shot of his body. It looked like he was on stilts. I swear to God, I never seen any person more disproportionate and off-looking. It was a pic taken of him from behind, where he was standing in front of a bed and held his crutches midway up in air.

I cannot remember a single person tell the truth to him. Does anyone still have that pic?

[leechlet]

Hi,

I partially agree with this. I got surgery with Guichet last month. I am at 4cm right now. My goal is 10cm. There's this girl lengthening right now at 8.5cm and I see her walking already and she is perfectly fine. She is rlly young and her bone is consolidating 3x faster than average.

And I seen this guy who just left that went to only 6cm but have problem walking and have nerve problems.

So i think it all depends on ur body. I think LL is sooo individualistic. I think the wise move is not to force it if it's not in ur body to go to a large amount. But i think any amount set is rlly arbitary. The girl i mentioned only wanted to do 7, but she had no problem at 7 and decided to go further.

Just take it one step at a time. That is the right move i think -- the wise move. I am probably not going to take the wise move, but non the less that is what ppl should do. 

[mediocre]

I agree that everyone is different. There'd be few whose body can absorb more than 10 cm of lengthening. The problem is we don't know who would that few are until they LL; it doesn't mean one is fit and flexible and he could do more. It's not as predictable as that.

Eventually everyone will regress to the mean. We just don't know what is the magic soft spot, that mean cm, where more than that is already more than enough. Dr Franz won't lengthen more than 10cm (femur + tibia), and I believe his reason is both for safety and proportion.

We're still getting more data as we discuss this in the forum. CLL is still in its infancy. I hope there's a randomized control trial (golden standard) where the optimum lengthening is determined based on safety and proportion, with 5-10-20 years follow up.

But that won't ever happen. All we have are anecdotal reports of each diary. This is the poorest evidence recommendation.

As Leechlet would always use poker as an analogy, our bet should be just enough. If we're too greedy, safety would be compromised (betting too high will make the other guy fold).

Hi,

I partially agree with this. I got surgery with Guichet last month. I am at 4cm right now. My goal is 10cm. There's this girl lengthening right now at 8.5cm and I see her walking already and she is perfectly fine. She is rlly young and her bone is consolidating 3x faster than average.

And I seen this guy who just left that went to only 6cm but have problem walking and have nerve problems.

So i think it all depends on ur body. I think LL is sooo individualistic. I think the wise move is not to force it if it's not in ur body to go to a large amount. But i think any amount set is rlly arbitary. The girl i mentioned only wanted to do 7, but she had no problem at 7 and decided to go further.

Just take it one step at a time. That is the right move i think -- the wise move. I am probably not going to take the wise move, but non the less that is what ppl should do. 

[leechlet]

Ya, totally agree with mediocre

WHen i first started this journey, I always asked Guichet if i can get to 10cm and HOW i would know. SLR score? cybex? just give me the bottom line, i told the guy. but he always said, "we'll see..." or "it depends..." which annoyed me bc i thought that was a bull answer. i mean, what the heck? why can't he just tell me a straight up answer? so i kept asking and asking.

after i got the surgery, i finally understood. LL is not a controlled event, like u just put in a nail, u do some stretches, and BOOM bro, u got taller. sweet man. time to go hit up chicks. no no, it's not like that. it's a much more chaotic procress with lots of random variables. how well will u heal? how fast will ur muscle adapt? how about ur nerves? psychology? sleep? eating? etc etc. soooo many variable. thats bc our body is one hella complex piece of machinery. it's not like an engine, a linear system where A+B = C always. no, there's so many things u couldn't possibly know until u do it.

i think that's why guichet has above average results. he claims he is the best. i never believe those claims. but his patients i see all have no major complications bc he adjusts to their conditions, such as click rate and medicine to speed up or slow down bone healing. but in the end, u gotta understand that LL like poker, is both a game of skill and luck. u can control how much u train, how closely u follow orders, and how seriously u take the whole experience, but u can't control how ur body will react. u just get a good doctor. that's like starting out with AKs. u have a good prep and surgery. that's liek flopping TPTK on a two tone board drawing to the nut flush. but maybe sometime will go wrong. maybe that stubborn nerve in ur right leg is causing problem, holding a set and boating up by the river. idk. okay, i am gonna stop with these poker analogies. but basically, u gotta accept the random nature of LL too if u wanna be completely realistic

[Smallguy]

Obvious heading.

Less is always better. If you do less, you recover faster and you will look more proportionate (assuming you don't have awkward body to begin with).

If you can overcome this height neurosis that we're all suffering from, I would never suggest anyone to undergo LL in the first place. I have made too many sacrifices this year and last year and my life would have been wayyyy better off and I would be much more happier had I not done LL. I would still keep my gf, finished by degrees, and be promoted to a higher position at work. Plus one of the reasons why my CEO liked me was because of my height. He was looking out for the small guy. But I can never overcome this height neurosis, which is ruining me in a bad way.

[Smallguy]

Here is my comments regarding those folks above.

Oldie - perfect

Tall - this guy allowed his height insecurity to get the better part of him. He went from a respectable height of 5'10 to become 6'7 (correct me if I'm wrong, 12cm + 6.5cm?). First of all, I can't imagine all the money he has spent. And his job is as respectable as his height. He's a sleazy salesman for Dr. M.

Crazy 6+ - he was my first roommate at Sarin's guesthouse. I knew all along he was the manager there. As we're friends, so I don't want to say too many bad things about him. But I wouldn't blame Sarin for his lack of recovery. While I was doing 300 sit-up per day, he was only reaching up for food. And he was even lazy to go to the washroom himself and have to ring the helper to carry him there.

Apo/Sysop - any guy who call himself Apothesis should have a reality check. He's really far from being a "god," both physically and mentally. He has been hiring hookers, who he calls girlfriends on old forum , to come over his house to take photo of him. He said women look at him with "deary" eyes out of admiration. I'm not sure if it's admiration or because they feel sorry for how mess up he has become. He's bald, upper body looks like a balloon with two long pair of white legs sticking out at the end. He said he likes to looking over ppl with his height, standing next to his other tall friend. I can imagine what that looks like. If they're both at the same height, Apo's crotch level would be at his friend's rib cage height level... not a very cool sight.

India's patient - well, I feel sorry for myself now. I was really hoping that my journey would end well. Unfortunately, I discovered that my left tibia is short than my right by 1cm. Now I have this problem to deal with before I can think about my next femur LL journey. And I wouldn't do much, maybe just 6cm.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

10cm is still a reasonable maximum goal for some people.  My calves and ankles were extremely flexible before going into the surgery.  I think I could have lengthened more than 7.5cm and still been all right.  My only real problem was with my knees, which hurt from the very beginning and were resistant to PT.  Things actually got easier for me the more I lengthened, possibly because of time passing between the IM nail surgery and then.

[theuprising]

LL has a cruel irony going in the sense that it's the smaller guys, those who are often 165cm and under who feel the greatest need for massive gains of 10cm which in turn look even weirder due to their smaller everything (wingspan, torso, hands,)

I think Dr Birkholtz is on the money when he talks about 5cm+5cm however most people want more (myself included).
However what we want and what is good for us... you know the rest.

[mediocre]

I agree, patients will ask more because that's just human nature. We don't see it objectively. But doctors do, and I'm happy there are doctors like Dr Birkholtz who put limits because they see it objectively. He loses patients and money, true, but that's the ethics of being a doctor—he swears that he will, "First, Do No Harm."

LL has a cruel irony going in the sense that it's the smaller guys, those who are often 165cm and under who feel the greatest need for massive gains of 10cm which in turn look even weirder due to their smaller everything (wingspan, torso, hands,)

I think Dr Birkholtz is on the money when he talks about 5cm+5cm however most people want more (myself included).
However what we want and what is good for us... you know the rest.

[Sweden]

Crazy+6 did 17cm.

I did 7cm and my body and life is totally ruined. My ankles are destroyed and I hate my life.
Some days I think of ending it. There is no spark anymore.

[TRS]

I thought 10 cm tibial lengthening was possible because it was listed in Dr.Xia's LON package and how he stated that it is possible to lengthen 10cm.
But after doing more research and emailing CLL doctors, I then realized how delusional I was.
For normal adults considering CLL, restrict yourselves to max 6cm femur and 5 cm tibias.

[Russianblues]

According to my x-ray I did 5.2, but, I think its reasonable to think I actually got a little less.

When I was in the guesthouse I was asked over and over if I regretted not doing more. Pretty common to hear stuff like "Why come all this way and only do 5". At the time I did sometimes think maybe I f**ked up when I took my frames off and I should have done more.

Since actually starting walking and trying to function in day to day life I am so so thankful that I did 5cm instead of more [god forbid doing 10cm on tibias?]. The toll this takes on your legs is just absolutely disgusting and I am not surprised the vast vast majority of people who do this surgery never post on the forum again.

The videos people post are a huge misrepresentation of the patients day to day life and the comments that follow are so ignorant if it wasn't so sad it'd be hilarious. I consider myself thoroughly disabled currently yet I have only seen two patients (smallguy and blackbear after his first surgery) do things that I can not do. So I am going to assume that everyone else who posts videos struggle day to day just as much as me, some of whom are years post surgery. Doing an extra 2cm prolongs recovery exponentially perhaps permanently.

After consulting with an Australian doctor overall I do regret doing this. In his opinion I will never squat or dead lift at anywhere near my previous level. My knee pain will not subside and currently I can't even do an unweighted leg extension with my right leg. Ironically I think the knee pain has nothing to do with how much you lengthen but just the rod being put in. I asked the doc if taking the rods out would solve the pain and he said it's just as likely to exacerbate it. Extremely nervous for my rod removal and the months that follow as it could be either help with the issues or be the beginnings of a lifetime of chronic pain that will severely detract from my quality of life. I have an array of other issues but are more short-medium term in nature which undoubtedly would have worsened had I lengthened more.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

After consulting with an Australian doctor overall I do regret doing this. In his opinion I will never squat or dead lift at anywhere near my previous level. My knee pain will not subside and currently I can't even do an unweighted leg extension with my right leg. Ironically I think the knee pain has nothing to do with how much you lengthen but just the rod being put in. I asked the doc if taking the rods out would solve the pain and he said it's just as likely to exacerbate it. Extremely nervous for my rod removal and the months that follow as it could be either help with the issues or be the beginnings of a lifetime of chronic pain that will severely detract from my quality of life. I have an array of other issues but are more short-medium term in nature which undoubtedly would have worsened had I lengthened more.

I concur with this doctor's opinion.  I was hoping the nail removal would improve my knee pain but it did not.

[TRS]

I am starting to lose faith in the LON/LATN method.

[Arche]

Crazy+6 did 17cm.

I did 7cm and my body and life is totally ruined. My ankles are destroyed and I hate my life.
Some days I think of ending it. There is no spark anymore.

Hey Sweden, I understand your professional karate career is over, which doesn't surprise me because of how extensive this surgery is, but can you walk still?

And for all the young kids like me reading your post, what would you have done differently? Thank you, and I wish you the best of luck in recovery!

[Sweden]

Taekwondo.

It's not about that. At all.

Today I can't even walk normal. I don't know what happened. In December I was out running and jump kicking and feeling great about myself.

Now for some reason my ankles hurt insanely much. A life without even walking is totally worthless.

I would not have done LL if I knew this. No way! I hate my life now. My life was truly fantastic before LL.

[Polycrates.]

Hey Russianblues,

How thoroughly did your doc in Australia evaluate your legs? Did he say the lengthening was performed correctly and that your legs are anatomically intact and such things? I'll be doing the same as you the moment I get home and going to a doc to be evaluated for he damage done (maybe after I first get on my knees and kiss the beloved ground I took so much for granted). I'm even considering electrotherapy to rid my mind of the sights of India  .  I had an x-ray on Tuesday and got 4.6cm and 4.7cm. I want to end up with just 5cm as well but, as you know, there is no way of being sure with these x-rays. I feel like I need to go to 6cm to be certain for 5.....

It sucks that  you're having the knee issues. Mine seem to be fine; I can get full range of motion on both with relative ease in the frames, but I have my toe that might never function again..... Glad to hear you've gotten home intact. It seems you and Sweden didn't find Thailand to be too appealing. Don't say I didn't try to warn you, bud.  Come on skype when you have free time.

[KrP1]

Have you asked your doctor about that? I think that it isnt normal that you have been welll and know you cant walk. Have you gone to any doctor? What did the say?

Taekwondo.

It's not about that. At all.

Today I can't even walk normal. I don't know what happened. In December I was out running and jump kicking and feeling great about myself.

Now for some reason my ankles hurt insanely much. A life without even walking is totally worthless.

I would not have done LL if I knew this. No way! I hate my life now. My life was truly fantastic before LL.

[Arche]

Taekwondo.

It's not about that. At all.

Today I can't even walk normal. I don't know what happened. In December I was out running and jump kicking and feeling great about myself.

Now for some reason my ankles hurt insanely much. A life without even walking is totally worthless.

I would not have done LL if I knew this. No way! I hate my life now. My life was truly fantastic before LL.

The only thing I can think of is that a screw might be loose in one or both of your ankles? Why don't you get an x ray?

[onedayillgrow]

Crazy+6 did 17cm.

I did 7cm and my body and life is totally ruined. My ankles are destroyed and I hate my life.
Some days I think of ending it. There is no spark anymore.

Jeezuz.. I used to read your posts and think 3 inches is nothing for this guy, he has taken so much lengthening and even showed us a video of his performing a human flag - I think i should be fine if i do 3 inch femurs and 2 inch tibie but now.. I'm scared as hell.. I'm only 5'4 and thought i could nicely reach 5'7 or 5'8 (even 5'9) which i'm more than happy for but reading all this.. I wish Limb Lengthening was perfected and people could do it properly without these heinous consequences.