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[TIBIKE200]

I also would like to see these studies, but you still didn't answer crimsons point you just changed the topic. Answer his question.

What question? My proof? Frankly I dont since I havent done any medical research by myself but read others' medical research and have spoken to top notch surgeons.

My proofs about this being somewhat safe are the same as your proof of this being an apocalyptic surgery

[crimsontide]

Tbike,

Before I reply, I wanna point out what members do when they can't actually reason logically

they try attacking you personally

You see it here

Tbike has zero evidence that patients recover fully.  The evidence on these forums contradicts  him

Yet  he  wants to believe anonymous people that emailed him.

Okay, that's fine for him, but not for me, and I doubt for anyone else

oh,  all you had to do was ask

https://www.aapc.com/blog/25426-keep-coding-grounded-for-gastrocnemius-recession/

http://lermagazine.com/article/return-of-strength-after-achilles-tendon-surgery

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3178860/


I could go on and on...

[TIBIKE200]

Tbike,

Before I reply, I wanna point out what members do when they can't actually reason logically

they try attacking you personally

You see it here

Tbike has zero evidence that patients recover fully.  The evidence on these forums contradicts  him

Yet  he  wants to believe anonymous people that emailed him.

Okay, that's fine for him, but not for me, and I doubt for anyone else

oh,  all you had to do was ask

https://www.aapc.com/blog/25426-keep-coding-grounded-for-gastrocnemius-recession/

http://lermagazine.com/article/return-of-strength-after-achilles-tendon-surgery

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3178860/


I could go on and on...

I answer you like I do because you mostly write nonsense.
 Anyway, those researches are done on people who had tendon trauma and had their tendon elongated while the length of the limb remained the same. Got anything related to limb lengthening (not must be cosmetic one)?

[crimsontide]

Yes, nonsense. Very good argument

Now tbike wants studies done on those with elongated limbs, as if the lengthening of the tendon will suddenly switch from a negative to a positive outcome in this case

But let's go with Tbike, and assume no studies have been done on this specific issue

Should we conclude that all is okay??  Of course not. We should be wary of any procedure if there's no studies done on the patient population we happen to be a member of.... unless of course we want to be guinea pigs

Dr's have told me  achilles lengthening  produces WORSE outcomes on those that had limb lengthening, as it's an additional trauma to the soft tissue

All studies on achilles lengthening  suggest that push off power is reduced by lengthening

Nothing to suggest that would change because of   bone lengthening

[TIBIKE200]

Yes, nonsense. Very good argument

Now tbike wants studies done on those with elongated limbs, as if the lengthening of the tendon will suddenly switch from a negative to a positive outcome in this case

But let's go with Tbike, and assume no studies have been done on this specific issue

Should we conclude that all is okay??  Of course not. We should be wary of any procedure if there's no studies done on the patient population we happen to be a member of.... unless of course we want to be guinea pigs

Dr's have told me  achilles lengthening  produces WORSE outcomes on those that had limb lengthening, as it's an additional trauma to the soft tissue

All studies on achilles lengthening  suggest that push off power is reduced by lengthening

Nothing to suggest that would change because of   bone lengthening

I will quote you "WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?!?!?!?!"

 You speak like I have an agenda. I wonder what you think it is

[crimsontide]

since I replied with studies, your turn

We all want to see the  case studies done on pre and post surgery athletic abilities of limb lengthening patients

[TIBIKE200]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26186315


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16189316


First study is from the egyptian doc.. So I dont know how reliable it is

Second is of catagni which was published on a well respected journal

[CCMidwest]

*munches popcorn*
 

[TIBIKE200]

Yes, nonsense. Very good argument

Now tbike wants studies done on those with elongated limbs, as if the lengthening of the tendon will suddenly switch from a negative to a positive outcome in this case

But let's go with Tbike, and assume no studies have been done on this specific issue

Should we conclude that all is okay??  Of course not. We should be wary of any procedure if there's no studies done on the patient population we happen to be a member of.... unless of course we want to be guinea pigs

Dr's have told me  achilles lengthening  produces WORSE outcomes on those that had limb lengthening, as it's an additional trauma to the soft tissue

All studies on achilles lengthening  suggest that push off power is reduced by lengthening

Nothing to suggest that would change because of   bone lengthening

btw who are the doctors that told you about how ATL is disastrous? I want names... Because I can give you names to docs I have spoken to

[crimsontide]

Azhar university is a religious universty in egypt

i put no value in that study, and it does not even address  our topic

The question is not  " can we walk again"

the question is... 100% athletic full recovery

Those studies don't even begin to address this issue

Yes,  you can walk after this surgery, . I can walk too

I mean a study of athletic abilities before and after surgery

Neither of those shows  that at all..  Tell me the tests done to assess athletic abilities?

Vertical leap?

Sprints?

Broad jump? 

 Walking speed testing??

Explosive movement testing?

Lateral movement?

Medium distance running??


Nothing even remotely similar    occurred in those studies

Catagni  does x rays, and looks at a very short walk acros the room, and voila, success

I could pass that test too

How about squatting ability? How much could they squat or leg press before and after surgery?

These studies don't even  attempt to answer these questions, as that's not the aim of them

I've yet to see 1 study done on athletic ability

[crimsontide]

Oh, and regarding achilles lengthening

Dr Dror Paley has said explicitly to me in response to my question

"can    you recover to even 90%  after achilles lengthening?"

His answer was NO.  With gastroc, yes, achilles lengthening, no

Anyone here is free to email him, and see for yourself

[TIBIKE200]

Azhar university is a religious universty in egypt

i put no value in that study, and it does not even address  our topic

The question is not  " can we walk again"

the question is... 100% athletic full recovery

Those studies don't even begin to address this issue

Yes,  you can walk after this surgery, . I can walk too

I mean a study of athletic abilities before and after surgery

Neither of those shows  that at all..  Tell me the tests done to assess athletic abilities?

Vertical leap?

Sprints?

Broad jump? 

 Walking speed testing??

Explosive movement testing?

Lateral movement?

Medium distance running??


Nothing even remotely similar    occurred in those studies

Catagni  does x rays, and looks at a very short walk acros the room, and voila, success

I could pass that test too

How about squatting ability? How much could they squat or leg press before and after surgery?

These studies don't even  attempt to answer these questions, as that's not the aim of them

I've yet to see 1 study done on athletic ability

So basically, you base your assertion that there is no possible athletic ability recovery on the lack of studies that say it is possible? You do understand that if there are no studies that proove it is possible it also means there arent any studies that proove it's impossible. I dont use the indian docs as an excuse but as a fact. Most diaries in this and old forum done on external tibias were done with zero class indian surgeons. It's on those studies that you base your assertion. It's also on your own experience with another zero class surgeon, that believes that the cows in front of his clinic have special healing power, that ATL is disastrous.

 How do you know how catagni judges recovery? He has showed me vids of how he judges recovery in the end study. You are discrediting him based on nothing.

[TIBIKE200]

Oh, and regarding achilles lengthening

Dr Dror Paley has said explicitly to me in response to my question

"can    you recover to even 90%  after achilles lengthening?"

His answer was NO.  With gastroc, yes, achilles lengthening, no

Anyone here is free to email him, and see for yourself

e-mail him and ask him "than why his teacher thinks otherwise"

[crimsontide]

I'll give you another

Dr. Robert Rozbruch

He will recommend against achilles lengthening as well, and suggest gastroc.

[TIBIKE200]

I'll give you another

Dr. Robert Rozbruch

He will recommend against achilles lengthening as well, and suggest gastroc.

Barinov is also not against ATL if necessary

[crimsontide]

Barinov?

Thought you were just railing against russian drs?

You mean the Dr of rgkey?  That Barinov?

You said top Dr's, not hacks

[TIBIKE200]

Barinov?

Thought you were just railing against russian drs?

You mean the Dr of rgkey?  That Barinov?

You said top Dr's, not hacks

I dont consider him a hack. Your doctor was a hack (bagirov) (atleast by your description).

 I am against the indian docs that destroyed lives.

[crimsontide]

Bagirov   didn't do my achilles lengthening

Dr shah did

Guess who was Shah's teacher??

Catagni of course

[TIBIKE200]

Bagirov   didn't do my achilles lengthening

Dr shah did

Guess who was Shah's teacher??

Catagni of course

I actually told catagni about your case with Shah. He doesnt remember who the doc is to be honest.

 Yes so Catagni is also incompetent... I get where this is going.

 Let's agree to disagree

 I wish you a good and fast recovery

[Alu]

I don't like it when mommy and daddy fight....

I actually told catagni about your case with Shah. He doesnt remember who the doc is to be honest.

 Yes so Catagni is also incompetent... I get where this is going.

 Let's agree to disagree

 I wish you a good and fast recovery

Or he could have lied to you to save face.

[crimsontide]

Actually, no, that's not my conclusion

My thinking is the following

This surgery is  very dependent on genetics.

You can  have a decent outcome or bad outcome

Considering the risks involved with every surgeon, it's not worth the risk to get this surgery, since we are taking a  healthy fully functional person, and likely reducing functionality, even if minimally

[TIBIKE200]

Actually, no, that's not my conclusion

My thinking is the following

This surgery is  very dependent on genetics.

You can  have a decent outcome or bad outcome

Considering the risks involved with every surgeon, it's not worth the risk to get this surgery, since we are taking a  healthy fully functional person, and likely reducing functionality, even if minimally

I also believe it's very very individualy dependent. BUT it also does depends on the surgeon. The better the surgeon, the lower the surgeon related risks

[theuprising]

Had no idea that the king of LL Paley and also other high ranking doc Rozbruch believe ATL prevents full recovery. This sort of information needs to be spread, so many times ATL mentioned as no big deal. It would help alot of potential LL patients.

[Thatdude950]

Crimon you're 100% right. I asked Tbike the exact same things you are and he dodged the question

" ... But if I was considering surgery I'd want some evidence of post surgery athleticism. Not just walking and jogging.

And (you need) more information about the patients too. The average person is overweight and slow. If an overweight slow person who never does anything athletic has the surgery and is back to their life of just walking ... well, that doesn't tell me much because their lifestyle and expectations are nothing like the ones I have for myself. "

God help you if you're basing your decision on what a few people have said in an email to you. Unless there's proof their words are worthless. Recovery to them might just mean being able to walk again and not much more.

[TIBIKE200]

Crimon you're 100% right. I asked Tbike the exact same things you are and he dodged the question

God help you if you're basing your decision on what a few people have said in an email to you. Unless there's proof their words are worthless. Recovery to them might just mean being able to walk again and not much more.

What question do I avoid? If I have research about athletic recovery after LL? Nope I dont... Never said I did

[theuprising]

What question do I avoid? If I have research about athletic recovery after LL? Nope I dont... Never said I did

In this thread you stated that ex Catagni patients who have lengthened their tibias between 7-8 cm have
made full athletic recoveries

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1584.93


Although in the thread with Thatdude950 when pushed for proof the best you came up with is that
they are happy and back to work. You could have easily stated what you did above.

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3069.msg50927#msg50927

It seems inconsistent.

[TIBIKE200]

In this thread you stated that ex Catagni patients who have lengthened their tibias between 7-8 cm have
made full athletic recoveries

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1584.93


Although in the thread with Thatdude950 when pushed for proof the best you came up with is that
they are happy and back to work. You could have easily stated what you did above.

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3069.msg50927#msg50927

It seems inconsistent.

They said they got back to pre LL levels. I have spoken with Lumier via phone and he said he is back also with athletic performance. I presume that by saying I got to what was before it means what it means. You want to make me a liar or inconsistant? Go for it. I understand your caution about this thing but please, dont throw it on me. I am having the exact same fears as every other potential LL patient

[CCMidwest]

In this thread you stated that ex Catagni patients who have lengthened their tibias between 7-8 cm have
made full athletic recoveries

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1584.93


Although in the thread with Thatdude950 when pushed for proof the best you came up with is that
they are happy and back to work. You could have easily stated what you did above.

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3069.msg50927#msg50927

It seems inconsistent.

Is he supposed to give away confidential email and phone numbers for the patients he spoke to?

I have spoke with 2 different patients of Dr. Paley's, I would not be able to prove they are fine (and they are), because the only thing I have is their word and seeing them walk and such. I also would not give out their contact info.

How exactly would I prove this?

How exactly is Tbike supposed to prove this?

Y'all are asking for something which does not exist. There are no studies of athletic ability post LL, and y'all know it. Which is part of the reason this forum exists, to provide that feedback.

That is also why patient interviews are SO important before getting LL.

[theuprising]

They said they got back to pre LL levels. I have spoken with Lumier via phone and he said he is back also with athletic performance. I presume that by saying I got to what was before it means what it means. You want to make me a liar or inconsistant? Go for it. I understand your caution about this thing but please, dont throw it on me. I am having the exact same fears as every other potential LL patient

Your making claims about athletic recovery that have never been backed up by any other patients in the history of both forums to my knowledge. Surely you would understand there would be some skepticism of your statements. No need to play the victim just searching for answers.

[theuprising]

Is he supposed to give away confidential email and phone numbers for the patients he spoke to?

I have spoke with 2 different patients of Dr. Paley's, I would not be able to prove they are fine (and they are), because the only thing I have is their word and seeing them walk and such. I also would not give out their contact info.

How exactly would I prove this?

How exactly is Tbike supposed to prove this?

Y'all are asking for something which does not exist. There are no studies of athletic ability post LL, and y'all know it. Which is part of the reason this forum exists, to provide that feedback.

That is also why patient interviews are SO important before getting LL.

Your answering questions that no one asked.

Who said anything about sharing contact info?

What's happening is using hearsay as absolutes regarding recovery. If I'm being told that patients have recovered full athletic ability
after doing 7-8 cm on tibia which has never been seen on the forums before I'd like to see something as it's so far removed from other
documented patient experiences.

[TIBIKE200]

I am going to quote a few of the e-mails for you guys. Because I am kinda nice

1) female patient: LL was a very hard and big experience for me. First 3 months aftr surgery the pain was immense but afterwards it ot better with each day. The entire procedure (Lengthening-consolidation-frame removal) was 11 months for a total of 8cm gain. I have no problems with my legs what so ever. extremely happy with results. Good luck!

2)Male patient: Hey. The procedure is very hard but it can be done. There is pain but it is toleretable. After one month after lengthening I was able to walk without crutches (I was a really fast consolidation). After frame removal I got back as same as before. I lengthened 6.8 cm. Would do this all over again

3) Male patient: Ask as you wish. I had the frames for 10months I did 7.3cm. There is pain but not too much. Everthing is as before but ankle joint somewhat stiff when I wake up. Would do the entire procedure again