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[paddy10tellys]

Hi all. I'm 56 yrs old but v active/sporty & young in outlook. I've always wanted longer shins but could never afford it. Raised 5 kids to independence & now I can invest in me. Wife thinks I'm crazy to go for LL. It's OK for her - she has fabulous legs which was the first thing I noticed before discovering her other wonderful attributes. I suspect most in here are probably a lot younger than me though. Any other mature types around? Does age become a contraindication? I suspect I won't ever come to terms with being short. So, this is why I am here & this is who I am. Decision time.

Rgds,
Patrick

[AimHigh]

Hey Paddy, i had ll of right femur at 49 years old (5.7 cm), gotta say lengthening was tough/painfull/very stiff and still now cant touch foot to butt in a squat, leg even now is still stiff/sore and knee is very crackly (crepitus) - do wonder how this I s gonna effect my mobilty in old age - have i accelerated athritis and am i going to have future increased risk of  injury due to decreased flexibility and leg strength?

[Penguinn]

"Wanted longer shins" is a terrible reason for going through with LL, unless your shins are abnormally short.

[paddy10tellys]

Why do you say that? To me it would mean I gain height and more normal proportions as they are quite short. What would be legitimate reasons to undergo LL in your opinion?

[paddy10tellys]

Hey AimHigh, thx for your insight. Sorry to hear about your symptoms. Maybe they will resolve given time? Maybe they might have happened anyway? Everyone gets OA/degeneration eventually, with/without h/o surgery. Did LL discepancy cause biomechanical issues that made KJ degeneration inevitable anyway? How long since the op? Would say the surgery damaged you or improved you & do you regret it or feel better overall for it? Would have doing it 20yrs ago have prevented your current difficulties?

Sport has already damaged me but I don't regret it at all. I've had 2 menisectomies, 1 acl repair, 2 hernia ops, 1 prolapsed intravertebral disc, rotator cuff tendinitis, jumpers knee, & bursitis just about anywhere you can get it. All of which which slowed me down a bit temporarily & made me less dynamic than I was when as I was 18 but I still got back into sport & I remain overactive. My knees sound like squeaking floorboards though... I just feel that I need some more height/proportions. Talking to folks with a similar interest on here is going to help me get my thoughts/feelings about surgery sorted I hope - like just do it/just forget it? Fit or short? Fit & taller? Who knows?

[ouroboros]

Hi all. I'm 56 yrs old but v active/sporty & young in outlook. I've always wanted longer shins but could never afford it. Raised 5 kids to independence & now I can invest in me. Wife thinks I'm crazy to go for LL. It's OK for her - she has fabulous legs which was the first thing I noticed before discovering her other wonderful attributes. I suspect most in here are probably a lot younger than me though. Any other mature types around? Does age become a contraindication? I suspect I won't ever come to terms with being short. So, this is why I am here & this is who I am. Decision time.

Rgds,
Patrick

Couple of questions.....

Have you had x-rays taken of your legs and measured your tibia/femur ratio?

Do you have a set budget to work with?  Can you afford the time for recovery?

Which doctors are you considering so far?

[Stripes]

If it makes you feel better there is a patient right now doing LL that is 47 years old in Russia. He just reached 7 CM. It wasn't easy but the point is that he did it and he's still going. He did it while having slipped disks so I'm sure you could do it just as easily. There were two other patients that i knew that were both 40. I've heard rumours of someone doing LL in their 60's but I don't know if that's a fact. You should contact LL doctors and ask for their opinion, but I say if you want to gain height and this is been something you've always wanted then go for it! -granted you're already in good health. It will be a long tough journey but I think it's worth it.

Side note: I would worry a little bit about your knees because CLL is hard on the knees - at least if you're doing external.

[paddy10tellys]

No xr's, Ouroboros. I'm still at the starting point of my journey & dithering/reflecting/deciding just now.

Anterior superior iliac spine to medial malleolus = 82cms = L.
Anterior superior iliac spine to medial joint line of the knee = 46cms = F.
Medial joint line of the knee to medial malleolus = 36cms = T.

F/L x100 = (46/82) x 100 = 56 = FL

T/L x100 = (36/82) x 100 = 44 = TL

FL:TL = 56/44 so, yes this short man man does have short shins...

Anyway, I can tell by looking at them that they look short. This is my neurosis & no tape measure will sort it. Nor will xr's & the needless Ionising radiation zapping my pelvis/prostate/gonads/rectum...

I could retire anytime within the next 2 yrs with reasonable annual pension + lump sum & not have to work. So time off work/financing not a show-stopper. Q: do I (a) buy a £60,000 Jaguar XJ saloon? Or do I (b) buy half a 1BR flat in the Algrave, or (c) add some height & hopefully piece of mind? IDK yet but I'm working through it with people who have walked the same path & everyone's advice is welcome, either way. Thing is, I couldn't give a toss about a fancy car, or a holiday home but I really hate being a short man with short shins...

So far, I'm only considering Mr/Dr Guichet - are French surgeons called Mr, like in the UK, or Dr? Anyway, Marseilles is close to the UK. His int nail is cool. I fancy my chances of a positive outcome in the French healthcare system over the NHS any day of the week wether at weekends or not & I've worked in the NHS since 1984 so that is a considered judgement.

[paddy10tellys]

Thx Stripes. I've given up on knees. they always hurt anyway. I've gotten use to it...

[ouroboros]

No xr's, Ouroboros. I'm still at the starting point of my journey & dithering/reflecting/deciding just now.

Anterior superior iliac spine to medial malleolus = 82cms = L.
Anterior superior iliac spine to medial joint line of the knee = 46cms = F.
Medial joint line of the knee to medial malleolus = 36cms = T.

F/L x100 = (46/82) x 100 = 56 = FL

T/L x100 = (36/82) x 100 = 44 = TL

FL:TL = 56/44 so, yes this short man man does have short shins...

Anyway, I can tell by looking at them that they look short. This is my neurosis & no tape measure will sort it. Nor will xr's & the needless Ionising radiation zapping my pelvis/prostate/gonads/rectum...

I could retire anytime within the next 2 yrs with reasonable annual pension + lump sum & not have to work. So time off work/financing not a show-stopper. Q: do I (a) buy a £60,000 Jaguar XJ saloon? Or do I (b) buy half a 1BR flat in the Algrave, or (c) add some height & hopefully piece of mind? IDK yet but I'm working through it with people who have walked the same path & everyone's advice is welcome, either way. Thing is, I couldn't give a toss about a fancy car, or a holiday home but I really hate being a short man with short shins...

So far, I'm only considering Mr/Dr Guichet - are French surgeons called Mr, like in the UK, or Dr? Anyway, Marseilles is close to the UK. His int nail is cool. I fancy my chances of a positive outcome in the French healthcare system over the NHS any day of the week wether at weekends or not & I've worked in the NHS since 1984 so that is a considered judgement.

If the above calculations are correct, you are on the shorter side for shins, but not by much.

I think that Monsieur Guichet is a fantastic doctor, but his whole schtick is femur surgery..... Basically he will convince you to have your femurs elongated even more before he will ever cave in and agree to elongate your tibias.  Going to him for having your shins elongated would be like taking your fancy Jag XJ for service to the best BMW mechanic in the city.  Sure the principles of mechanics are all very similar, but you have to take specialized knowledge into account.

I think you are in a great position to do this the right way because you seem to have discipline and understand your body exactly how it is..... no sugarcoating like others normally do.   Keep reading diaries, even those in india, russia, jupiter, etc., and you will find clues and commonalities on those that succeeded vs those that ended up a big mess

[paddy10tellys]

Thx, mate. I will take that good advice & use it. Cheers!

[patientdad]

I heard of a 63 year old woman having the procedure. 

[hyong]

Thx, mate. I will take that good advice & use it. Cheers!

was wonder does age helps with height acceptance?
are u "happier" with your height now compared to your 20s? , or have it changed??

[paddy10tellys]

Good for her, PatiendDad! Thx, for the reply. Any more details, like where/surgeon/results?

[paddy10tellys]

Age & acceptance, Hyong? No, mate. As I grow older my dysphoria is worse. I'm now also bothered about getting old AND still being short. I would make a *terrible* Buddhist. I envy that inner peace but honestly I can't let go like that...

[paddy10tellys]

Ouroberos, (or anyone here for that matter) - who else could do internals on my tibias, with weight-bearing during the distraction phase? Any recommendations?

[ouroboros]

Ouroberos, (or anyone here for that matter) - who else could do internals on my tibias, with weight-bearing during the distraction phase? Any recommendations?

Unfortunately, the only other choice I'm aware of is Betz..... The only thing is that I would not recommend him as a safe choice since he has had too many complications where people spend a lot of money trying to fix the problems.....not worth risking your health.

The best doctor for tibia lengthening IMO is Catagni.... He mainly works with external fixators though...

Don't be too particular about internal weight bearing nails for tibia.... it's probably not the way to go.  Externals are a safer option for tibia.   Think long term health instead of quick fix and high risk.

Check out Lumiere's diary in the patients section.....he is having a decent recovery so far.

[paddy10tellys]

Thx for that, Ouroberos. It's int tibs or nothing. Femurs don't need doing. I couldn't cope being off my legs for long so ext fixation is also a no no. I'm curious about your attitude towards the safety profile of int tibs. Have you got stats? What is the basis for your concerns? If it's just knee pain I was doing karate (3rd Dan Shotokan) & soccer (6-a-side on astroturf = knee killer) with the inevitable knee/back pain until 5yrs ago & now I do tennis/golf/weights/swimming at Joe average with ocd level despite my knees/back hurting. I can't run though. So, reduced athletic ability does not concern me that much. However, thromboembolism, osteomyelitis, malunion would. This is where I am just now but I am still open to the advice/opinions of others...

I checked Lumiere's diary. Thx. V interesting. I'm really pleased for him & impressed that he did it.

Finally, does everyone here hide their identity/faces? Why? Am I missing a big something, perhaps? I've always been upfront about being short & I don't care who knows it pisses me off. I often tell people that I can read books to get smarter/push weights to get muscles but what irks the most is that there is no way for me to compete with their height advantage (well until CLL came along). That must make them feel incredibly smug.

[DoingItForMe]

Iamready doesn't hide his face. He said that he had positive experiences with telling people about his LL surgery.

I personally hide my LL surgery from people because of several warnings by LL veterans. I remember OldieButGoldie saying that he regrets telling everyone about his surgery.

The reason is because of how people view you. They judge you poorly based on the fact that you're unwilling to accept yourself and did this surgery for cosmetic reasons. Most people are against cosmetic surgery in general. Think of how many people get ridiculed for plastic surgery. If you talk about this surgery in any other place besides this forum, you'll get a negative response. So it's easier to just not have to deal with the negativity while you're still recovering from the surgery. I, for one, had my long-term girlfriend break up with me because of the surgery. She saw the surgery as a sign of weakness or mental illness. She was one of the few who knew about the surgery, because she took care of me for a month during the lengthening process.

In other words, in the minds of others, you'll look like a crazy person. Better off not having to deal with people thinking that you're crazy, because it will make you regret the surgery. OldieButGoldie regrets his surgery. He was 45.

[ortholengthening]

the tibia is at significantly increased risk of nonunion compared to femur. This is true in trauma and even moreso when it comes to limb lengthening. It has to do with blood supply and soft tissue coverage. The risk of nonunion with open tibial shaft fracture can be up to 10% (in trauma literature). this is almost negligible with femurs. nonunion also depends on ones definition. there are many different definitions of nonunion.

Big reason why you can't/shouldn't weight bear on tibial nails is that they are smaller nails. you can put in bigger nails into femurs as the femurs have bigger canal diameters. That said, anything with enough repetitive mechanical stress WILL fall apart unless your bone have already consolidated.

[paddy10tellys]

I'm sorry your GF was not so enlightened DoingItForMe. Some food for thought indeed. Double bind for us short folks. Patronised for being short but belittled for being lengthened... in the minds of the herd height equals virtue? Such conceit! The problem is social conformity. Too short? Too neurotic? Both? Q possibly. However, shamed into nothingness by the crowd, that sucks even more.

So transcend height issues quietly. “A bad conscience is easier to cope with than a bad reputation.” -Friedrich Nietzsche. I get it... thx, I think.

NB profile pic changed under advisement...

[paddy10tellys]

Thx, ortholengthening but is sustaining an open tibial shaft # really equivalent to undergoing a controlled Tibial CLL procedure? Research evidence suggesting faster healing of Femur v tibia due to tissue coverage/blood supply was accrued in trauma case series: Most tibial fractures are comminuted and open because the tibia is a subcutaneous bone & trauma injuries are high-impact, therefore more tissue disruption occurs, the vasculature may be compromised & infection is more likely. Tibial non-unions are estimated to constitute 2-10% of all tibial fractures & the incidence is greater with high-energy injuries and open fractures. However, while it is true to say that the femur has more protection relative to the tibia because of the soft tissue coverage it does not follow that cold procedures on the tibia suffer the same risk profile. That would be a non-sequitur. Also, what is the evidence for your assertion that this is even more of a problem in limb-lengthening procedures as opposed to trauma? Lastly, implant failures usually occur through the locking bolts and not through the nails so the size of the nails or the canal diameters is irrelevant. Agree that abusing a nailed leg is not a good idea though.

[ortholengthening]

i agree that trauma vs controlled osteotomy are not same birds.
that said, nonunions and devastating wound complications can and do occur with high tibial osteotomies (which are also "cold" procedures". There is a reason why distraction for femurs are ~1 mm/day vs tibials which are more around 0.75mm/day. If you want specifics of complications and non/delayed unions you'll have to talk to the surgeons who perform them, themselves.

I can't give you evidence comparing trauma vs distraction osteogenesis. not sure if anyone has specifically looked at that. i'm just stating a personal opinion - extrapolating based on looking at bone on bone contact healing ie) closing osteotomy vs opening wedge - again realizing that it's NOT the same as distraction procedure.

yes failure is mostly at the locking screws, but one doesn't need to look to far to see broken nails. moreover, manufacturers of the nails have limitations on weightbearing based on the nail diameter.

[DoingItForMe]

For what it's worth, Dr. Paley, a veteran LL doctor, suggests doing femurs over tibias for faster recovery and better overall results.

[TIBIKE200]

For what it's worth, Dr. Paley, a veteran LL doctor, suggests doing femurs over tibias for faster recovery and better overall results.

 Which is the exact opposite suggestion of Catagni... I believe that in the end, both segments are the same... Only that a specialized femur doc will tell you to go for femurs and a Tibia doc will tell you it's better to go for tibias.

[DoingItForMe]

Which is the exact opposite suggestion of Catagni... I believe that in the end, both segments are the same... Only that a specialized femur doc will tell you to go for femurs and a Tibia doc will tell you it's better to go for tibias.

Dr. Paley does both femurs and tibias. But femurs lengthen at 1 mm per day while tibias are .66 mm per day. And femurs tend to get to 8 cm while tibias rarely get to 8 cm.

[TIBIKE200]

Dr. Paley does both femurs and tibias. But femurs lengthen at 1 mm per day while tibias are .66 mm per day. And femurs tend to get to 8 cm while tibias rarely get to 8 cm.

 That's because tibias are shorter to begin with... So the muscles and soft tissue over there are not used to be as elastic as the femur's surrounding soft tissue. Although theorically, if you prepare alot by stretching the calves (Some yoga possitions) you could theorecally prepare your soft tissue for the stretch... Or as catagni put's it "A ballet dancer is not able to perform a 180 degrees leg extentions (when one leg is on the front and one in the back) on the first day... But with constant training her soft tissue will be able to do so with ease..."
  Preperation is key. And because we use out thighs muscles much more they are more prepared (and this is why everyone has duckass... Because of the Ileopsoas which is super tight because of all the sitting we do).

[goldenegg]

That's because tibias are shorter to begin with... So the muscles and soft tissue over there are not used to be as elastic as the femur's surrounding soft tissue. Although theorically, if you prepare alot by stretching the calves (Some yoga possitions) you could theorecally prepare your soft tissue for the stretch... Or as catagni put's it "A ballet dancer is not able to perform a 180 degrees leg extentions (when one leg is on the front and one in the back) on the first day... But with constant training her soft tissue will be able to do so with ease..."
  Preperation is key. And because we use out thighs muscles much more they are more prepared (and this is why everyone has duckass... Because of the Ileopsoas which is super tight because of all the sitting we do).

theoretically maybe, but in reality preparation is not enough when doing tibias since most people require achilles tendon lengthening surgery too. catagni said so himself that 70% of his patients require it after 3-5 cm

[TIBIKE200]

theoretically maybe, but in reality preparation is not enough when doing tibias since most people require achilles tendon lengthening surgery too. catagni said so himself that 70% of his patients require it after 3-5 cm

 I am doing alot of stretches for my claves for 2 monthes already. Huge improvment. Doing the downward facing dog position for like 30 minutes with breaks in between. Best calve's stretch

[paddy10tellys]

Agree. Thx for the insight, Ortholengthening. I'm definitely listening. I'm a sponge.

[Alu]

I know of a 55 year old, who did his procedure at 52. From what I've gathered he had a hard time sure, but he never went over 6 cm and went to Paley. He's had as supposed fantastic recovery.

If you go to Paley's website he's actually one the who wrote the testimonial.