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[texasbruce]

After reading a few diaries, I got this (possibly false) impression that people undergone femoral LL retain better athletic ability than tibial LL?

Any ideas?

[jaymorgan712]

I have read a lot of diaries too! I have also met up with people who did LL in my country. People that lengthened up to 6 centimetres in the tibia, got all their athletic ability back. People that lengthened up to 7-8 centimetres in the femur also got their athletic ability back.

Don't anymore than 6 in the tibia or anymore than 8 in the femur or you will lose athletic ability.

[theuprising]

I have read a lot of diaries too! I have also met up with people who did LL in my country. People that lengthened up to 6 centimetres in the tibia, got all their athletic ability back. People that lengthened up to 7-8 centimetres in the femur also got their athletic ability back.

Don't anymore than 6 in the tibia or anymore than 8 in the femur or you will lose athletic ability.

Hey jay I read your post where you said you met with Dr Tetsworth and he said 15% on a segment is ok. Wouldn't it depend on the original height of the patient rather than hard and fast numbers of 6cm for tibia and 8cm for femur?

[jaymorgan712]

Yes, that is absolutely correct. He said 15% of whatever your bone length is is the safest thing to do. he also said when you go a millimetres over the 15% mark it starts to get VERY PAINFUL! And you start losing muscle bit by bit.

I could push to 6 centimetres in my tibia, but I'm taking a huge chance of losing a lot of muscle and athletic ability. it happens really quickly.

My tibia length is 37= 5.5 centimetres
My femur length is 48 centimetres= 7.2 centimetres.

[theuprising]

Yes, that is absolutely correct. He said 15% of whatever your bone length is is the safest thing to do. he also said when you go a millimetres over the 15% mark it starts to get VERY PAINFUL! And you start losing muscle bit by bit.

I could push to 6 centimetres in my tibia, but I'm taking a huge chance of losing a lot of muscle and athletic ability. it happens really quickly.

My tibia length is 37= 5.5 centimetres
My femur length is 48 centimetres= 7.2 centimetres.

Your previous quote of saying that people who lengthen up to 6cm on tibia and 7-8cm on femur get all their athletic ability back contradicts what you just wrote. Were these other patients taller than you to start with?

[jaymorgan712]

No, one was 5'4 and the other one was 5'2. They both did 6 centimetres in the tibia. They were both running and walking extremely well. I did not ask them about their bone length, but they were both doing fine. However, I have seen people that post here saying they did 7 centimetres in the tibia and lost a lot of their muscle/athletic ability.
I'm still sticking with Dr. Tetsworth and staying on the safe side and doing 15% of my bone length, but somehow people can still do 6 centimetres in the tibia and be okay, and people are doing 7-8 centimetres in the femur and claim they are back to normal.

Some doctors believe it has nothing to do with percentage and it has to do with amount. It's hard to say, really. But I will stick to the 15% of bone length idea. It just sounds safe and realistic.

[theuprising]

I think the percentage concept makes more sense also. Doing 6cm a far greater amount a 165cm guy than a 180cm guy.

[TIBIKE200]

I actually got the impression that lengthening the femurs gave much less appealing recovery than lengthening the Tibia (Could be because the tibia lengthening method exists much longer?)

[Alittletooshort]

There is a thread about atheltic recovery, a Dr.(Lee I believe) tracked the recovery of his tibia patients after a couple of year and the result was that only the people who lengthened below 5cm´s got their atletism back.
I actually got the impression that femur patients seem to recover better, this might be caused by the fact that most ppl leave the forum after the procedure and the tibial recovery just takes much longer. A Dr. who does LL for corrective purposes by using the percise nail told me that a 100% recovery after more than 2-3cm´s is impossible and that´s the reason why he woudln´t ever do this for cosmetic purposes.
Edit:
From the people here on the forum only Shyshy recovered really well (and proofed it), Vetpat also said that he regained all of his prior athletism. Most peole lack explosivness and the ability to perform quick movements after LL.

[Alittletooshort]

My tibia length is 37= 5.5 centimetres
My femur length is 48 centimetres= 7.2 centimetres.

How tall are you?

[TIBIKE200]

There is a thread about atheltic recovery, a Dr.(Lee I believe) tracked the recovery of his tibia patients after a couple of year and the result was that only the people who lengthened below 5cm´s got their atletism back.
I actually got the impression that femur patients seem to recover better, this might be caused by the fact that most ppl leave the forum after the procedure and the tibial recovery just takes much longer. A Dr. who does LL for corrective purposes by using the percise nail told me that a 100% recovery after more than 2-3cm´s is impossible and that´s the reason why he woudln´t ever do this for cosmetic purposes.
Edit:
From the people here on the forum only Shyshy recovered really well (and proofed it), Vetpat also said that he regained all of his prior athletism. Most peole lack explosivness and the ability to perform quick movements after LL.

100% of athletic recovery or general recovery? Knowing anatomy, femoral lengthening should be much more serious since you are stretching the muscles that connect your knee to the femur but also your pelvic bones... You stretch much more muscle groups by lengthening the femurs... A thing that does not happen when lengthening the tibia.

[Alittletooshort]

Athletic recovery, all the patients gained back their ability to walk normally again. The people who exeeded the 5cm mark only gained back 60-70% of their ability perform quick movements and sprints.

[jaymorgan712]

How tall are you?

I am 171 centimetres. Just above a flat 5'7.

[theuprising]

What Dr Lee had to say regarding athletic recovery with follow up of 100s of LL patients.

"I personally asked Dr. Lee what he thought about this (lengthening past 6 cm) and he has told me that from his experience in talking to former lengthening patients (2-3 years post recovery) those that only lengthened 5 cm recovered fully and their previous athleticism returned close to 100% to pre-LL levels. On the other hand, those who chose to lengthen between 6 and 7 centimeters recovered 100% in performing daily functions (walking, light jogging, etc), BUT only recovered about 60-70% of their pre-LL athleticism when engaging in serious sports/strenuous activities (full sprinting, jumping, basketball, rugby,etc..). Additionally, those that lengthened beyond 7 cm saw an ever greater decline in their previous athletic abilities.

In short, those who lengthen beyond 5 cm will not be able to recover all of their pre-LL athletic abilities because their muscles, nerves, tendons will be stretched well beyond their natural limits and will be permanently damaged. He used the rubber band analogy and Dr. Lee believes strongly in this. Once a rubber band (muscle) is stretched beyond its natural limit, even if its by only half a centimeter, then it will begin to tear and will forever lose its previous elasticity. The muscle's natural limit seems to be at 5 cm for many patients, though it can be higher or lower depending on the patient's initial tibia/femur length."

[Daylight]

What Dr Lee had to say regarding athletic recovery with follow up of 100s of LL patients.

"I personally asked Dr. Lee what he thought about this (lengthening past 6 cm) and he has told me that from his experience in talking to former lengthening patients (2-3 years post recovery) those that only lengthened 5 cm recovered fully and their previous athleticism returned close to 100% to pre-LL levels. On the other hand, those who chose to lengthen between 6 and 7 centimeters recovered 100% in performing daily functions (walking, light jogging, etc), BUT only recovered about 60-70% of their pre-LL athleticism when engaging in serious sports/strenuous activities (full sprinting, jumping, basketball, rugby,etc..). Additionally, those that lengthened beyond 7 cm saw an ever greater decline in their previous athletic abilities.

In short, those who lengthen beyond 5 cm will not be able to recover all of their pre-LL athletic abilities because their muscles, nerves, tendons will be stretched well beyond their natural limits and will be permanently damaged. He used the rubber band analogy and Dr. Lee believes strongly in this. Once a rubber band (muscle) is stretched beyond its natural limit, even if its by only half a centimeter, then it will begin to tear and will forever lose its previous elasticity. The muscle's natural limit seems to be at 5 cm for many patients, though it can be higher or lower depending on the patient's initial tibia/femur length."

This should be the wake up call to those who want to do 15 cm...
@THeuprising: How did you contact him may I ask? I might consider him as my second option after Guichet.

[theuprising]

Quote was from Walk6 diary on old forum.

[TIBIKE200]

The muscle will lose it's function if you stretch apart too much the miosin and actin filaments. That's why the rubber band analogy is correct. Only question is does the max safe distance between the two filaments is the same in a 170cm tall guy and a 165cm tall guy

[YellowSpike]

One thing I'm very curious to know is how much longer, exactly, do tibias take to heal compared to femurs? I'd also like to know if tibia consolidation time is a direct linear function of how much you lengthen (I was told by one doctor that it's not, and that tibias just straight up take pretty long, even if you lengthen a small amount like I want to). Dr. Paley said to me that he thinks I could be walking unaided from internal tibias after about 3-4 months (but I'm thinking more like 4 months) for 3cm - which is really all I want at this point.

Also, has it been proven if there's anything we can take that might speed up consolidation time? I'm curious to know if anyone has anecdotal evidence, even.

[texasbruce]

One thing I'm very curious to know is how much longer, exactly, do tibias take to heal compared to femurs? I'd also like to know if tibia consolidation time is a direct linear function of how much you lengthen (I was told by one doctor that it's not, and that tibias just straight up take pretty long, even if you lengthen a small amount like I want to). Dr. Paley said to me that he thinks I could be walking unaided from internal tibias after about 3-4 months (but I'm thinking more like 4 months) for 3cm - which is really all I want at this point.

Also, has it been proven if there's anything we can take that might speed up consolidation time? I'm curious to know if anyone has anecdotal evidence, even.

internal for tibias? Bad bad

Yes usually tibia grows 25% slower than femur. You might expect to walk unaided > amount of cm. e.g. if you plan to lengthen 5cm, expect 5 to 6 months in frame/nails

[YellowSpike]

internal for tibias? Bad bad

Yes usually tibia grows 25% slower than femur. You might expect to walk unaided > amount of cm. e.g. if you plan to lengthen 5cm, expect 5 to 6 months in frame/nails

Why do you say that? I've spoken to Paley, and he said internals for tibias are safe with the right doctors (and I trust Paley). Dr. Catagni also does internals (precice) for tibias. I think Catagni said I'd have to be in frames for like at least 4 months for 3cms. I might have misread his email, or he might have answered for 5-6cm. I just want 3cm more so I can be (a proportionate) 176 ish.

[chineseguy]

yellow spike,   you have lenghten right?    how is it now? 

[YellowSpike]

yellow spike,   you have lenghten right?    how is it now?

I did 7cm on femurs (166 to 173). My evening height is usually right around 173 (sometimes a mm or two above or below). But never have I gone below 5'8" since I've mostly fixed my duckass by now.

I want to be at least 175-176. Will have to suck it up and do tibias, but trying to figure out the least suckiest way possible to get those 3cm added to my tibias and be done with this sh*t forever. Not stopping until I get it

[texasbruce]

Why do you say that? I've spoken to Paley, and he said internals for tibias are safe with the right doctors (and I trust Paley). Dr. Catagni also does internals (precice) for tibias. I think Catagni said I'd have to be in frames for like at least 4 months for 3cms. I might have misread his email, or he might have answered for 5-6cm. I just want 3cm more so I can be (a proportionate) 176 ish.

It is kinda a fact that internal nails on tibias may cause permanent knee pain. See Dr Pili explantion of downside of internal method:

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=2804.0

You can also find some similar statement on the old forum diaries where people did internal tibias saying they have knee pain after a few years.

Why not ilizarov frame? It is THE SAFEST (yes ask everyone) method of lengthening, and it takes 4 months which is not too bad.

[Alu]

It is kinda a fact that internal nails on tibias may cause permanent knee pain. See Dr Pili explantion of downside of internal method:

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=2804.0

You can also find some similar statement on the old forum diaries where people did internal tibias

Why not ilizarov frame? It is THE SAFEST (yes ask everyone) method of lengthening, and it takes 4 months which is not too bad.

Hm sorry, but I hold the externals to be outdated at this point. Sure they are cheaper, but compared to the relative ease and comfort (more comfort) of the internal nails. It'd say they are much better. Of course, will preface this by saying that you'd have to go with a doctor like Paley to obtain those great results.

[TIBIKE200]

I personally dont mind the discomfort during the procedure itself... I prefer to have a though lengthening and consolidation but in the end getting out of it like I entered. I noticed that atleast with kids and young adults, the external methods are being used while the internal ones are being completely neglected. Also, the fact that the externals exist much longer, means that there is much more experience with them.

[texasbruce]

Hm sorry, but I hold the externals to be outdated at this point. Sure they are cheaper, but compared to the relative ease and comfort (more comfort) of the internal nails. It'd say they are much better. Of course, will preface this by saying that you'd have to go with a doctor like Paley to obtain those great results.

No they are not. Comfort wise of course internals are better. But external methods usually have:
-Less complication (internal nails rust, fat embolism, nail bending, internal infection)
-External infection

And ilizarov frame is really good at correcting deformity and always weight bearing (Albizia nails like Guichet or Betzbone does it too, but PRECISE and others do not)

There are even new external methods like monorails being developed to serve the purpose to take advantage of benefits of external methods (although they are not very good)

[ouroboros]

I personally dont mind the discomfort during the procedure itself... I prefer to have a though lengthening and consolidation but in the end getting out of it like I entered.

Completely agree with this.  I was all for internals at first, but then I see people struggling with recovery for over a year which defeats the purpose.   Then you have to have additional surgery to have the nail removed and hope and pray that you won't need correction surgery afterwards.   

Internals are definitely the way to go for femurs, but tibias should be purely external(no lon or latn) with a good doctor and aftercare.   If you want this surgery bad enough, you should be willing to sacrifice the time required to get the best possible recovery.   Fck instant gratification!

[PatientZero]

Internals are definitely the way to go for femurs, but tibias should be purely external(no lon or latn) with a good doctor and aftercare.   If you want this surgery bad enough, you should be willing to sacrifice the time required to get the best possible recovery.   Fck instant gratification!

Would it change your opinion on internal tibias to win a small fortune of 100k for Paley?

Most people willing to have the surgery do not care about the 'best possible recovery.' They just want to be taller. Examples are people still going to certain doctors in India or Serbia.

[PatientZero]

There's no argument that externals are better than internals for complications and deformities. In my opinion, that's where it ends.

Something members here don't talk about is the psychological downsides to having externals. You have to wear that hunk of metal for a long time, often holing yourself in for an entire year, and having carry significantly more scars. Dunno bout you, but it takes a different breed of person to do externals and come out ok--I am not one of them. I've noticed many of the external patients having to start a 'new life', whereas many of the internal guys are significantly more positive.

Internals have increased comfort, better recovery when done right, and it allows you to feel normal. The feeling normal part is sooo important. At month 2, I was comfortable with the general public seeing me hobble around on a walker/crutches. The other day I was able to do some fine dining with my doc and another patient without having to feel like people are staring or judging. For me that feeling is priceless.

For these reasons, I can only recommend internals for LL. It's worth saving for, even if you have to do it in your 30s. Now one can have internals done for ~50k to Western standards. Anyone can do this... save 1k each month for 4 years. For determined post-grads, you can do this surgery at 26 or 27.

Cheers

[ouroboros]

Would it change your opinion on internal tibias to win a small fortune of 100k for Paley?

Right now?......probably not.  I'm following IamReady's diary, and I feel bad for the struggles the guy has gone through.   Also based on other Paley's patient observations while at Homewood, it is mostly the tibia patients that have problems with Paley.  So my opinion is not based on money alone, it's about getting taller and being able to enjoy it afterwards.   

 

[Alittletooshort]

Why didn´t anyone mention LATP? This is the best option for tibial lengthening imo. You can get rid of the frames fairly quickly and you do not ruin your knees for the rest of your life by splitting them twice, it´s also fully wheight bearing and a lot cheaper than internals.
You can hide the scars by (mostly) removing them with a laser , in combination with hairy legs this shouldn´t be too difficult I guess.