Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[aspirant185]

Hey guys, I was wondering, under what circumstances would one take debt to pay for CLL ? I am considering doing my Femurs, most probably with Dr. Betz in Germany, and the whole thing would cost around 60k euro with physiotherapy and other side expenses (Nebenkosten, as they say in Germany)
I am seriously thinking about saving 1/2 of the amount, for which I would need about 2 years, borrowing 1/4 from a bank, and my parents will get me the remaining 1/4 (15k) . Further, as of know, I have a credit card with a limit of 3 k euro and I guess later on I would be able to get one with 5k, but I would only use that in cases of absolute emergency ...

by the time I will do LL i would have become 27 - 28 years old, what I think is a great age to do such surgery, both from recovery perspectives and , well the idea that one needs to do it as young as possible to , you know, to enjoy it longer So, basically, I would need to really save 4 maybe 5 years in order to comfortably save the whole amount. There is also the possibility of just diverging from my plan and go to vacations, buy nice clothes , maybe a car, but if I owe money to the bank, then, well I simply need to make the next payment, which, if I borrow 15 k euro, would mean around 350 euro monthly for 4 years, or based on my current prognosis, between 8% - 12% of my net income for that period of my career. The initial 2 years of saving the 30k would mean between 30%-40% of my monthly income.

Do you think that my plan makes sense ?

[texasbruce]

No comments on your plan -  that is your personal life. But just wanna say Betz might be out of your plan cuz from other people and no email response ever he seemed to have stopped his career on this.

[aspirant185]

That is interesting to hear. I e-mailed him in the summer (July) and somebody from his staff answered promptly. Did he really retire ?

[morethan167]

No, he did not retire. But he has a terrible staff over there.

[texasbruce]

No, he did not retire. But he has a terrible staff over there.

I guess his staff totally ignored all my emails...

[Alittletooshort]

Why don't you just keep saving your money and delay your surgery for 6 more months? I'd avoid getting into depbt for this surgery. You'll only loose 6 months which is not a big deal.

[aspirant185]

Actually I would need another full year. Since I am planning on saving 30k for 2 years, I would need 1 more year to save the remaining 15k (assuming I will get the last 15k from my parents). I guess it depends on how my job goes. I just want to be done with that thing and move on

[Alu]

It'd be stupid to go into depth with this surgery considering possible complications that might occur leading to more expenses to be paid.

My honest advice is just focus on your career and perhaps stop visiting this forum so much once you have an idea of what and whom you want to do it with.

That's pretty much my perspective; I'm gonna go away once certain people's diaries are wrapped up and I can simply focus on my life. I'll be collecting the funds, hoping better tech is available, and then going off to do it and moving on.

[TIBIKE200]

NOPE

[PatientZero]

Add 15-20k for complications.

It would be extremely shortsighted to think.. oh Dr.Guichet is 65k and that's all I need. More like 65k + 20k = 85k.

Almost all the patients I met who are financing their own operations are in their 30s because thats when people have enough money saved up for internals.

I'd rather do LL when I'm 30 vs having external frames on for a year in some 3rd world country.

[crimsontide]

anyone that takes out a loan to do this surgery is making a huge mistake

life is too short.... dont get this surgery

[aspirant185]

Add 15-20k for complications.

I believe that, based on what  I read here, the vast majority of patients of the top doctors in the US and Europe did not experience any complications or certainly any serious complications which required additional payments. Furthermore, many other patients have the surgery and never write in these forums. If somebody has a complication, he is more likely to write in order to ask for help or warn the others. While it is of course helpful to have 15-20k just in case, I think that, at least statistically, complications with the best doctors (assuming one does reasonable amount and follows instructions) are unlikely.

[TIBIKE200]

btw aspirant, I have looked at your mock-up again. Dont do femurs.. Your legs will look horrible. Do the 4.5-5cm on tibia like you planned before. That's my opinion

[Alu]

Nothing is guaranteed with this surgery. Even patients who go to the best doctors can have severe problems. Look at Programdude, he went to Paley and had a severe leg snap. Now that isn't to say it's his or Paley's fault, but that still goes to show that nothing is guaranteed.

[Tiny]

Canadian student here. Saving a part of my student loan for LL. So instead of getting suckered into buying books, I just pirate the sh!t outta them and save. I have raised $2500 just this semester. I wish I started sooner. I'm going to do LL after I completed all of my major courses; I think I'll have $10000 from my loan by then. Plus, I'm planning to work this year and save another $10000. Then borrow $5000-$7500 from my parents.

In case of complications, I FCK!NG HOPE NOT, I think I can make use of our free health care.

[Penguinn]

I think if you have to take loans, you should consider doctors cheaper than 70K dollars.

[Cartman]

I shall not take debt for that. I prefer to wait and to collect the necessary money and I shall not choose a surgery more expensive than 25000 euros: 70000-100000 is the price of a luxury car!

[aspirant185]

Canadian student here. Saving a part of my student loan for LL. So instead of getting suckered into buying books, I just pirate the sh!t outta them and save. I have raised $2500 just this semester. I wish I started sooner. I'm going to do LL after I completed all of my major courses; I think I'll have $10000 from my loan by then. Plus, I'm planning to work this year and save another $10000. Then borrow $5000-$7500 from my parents.

In case of complications, I FCK!NG HOPE NOT, I think I can make use of our free health care.

That reminds me, I had a study abroad in the US 2 years ago and I had to spend around $3000 for text books and materials for just 6 courses. I bought an iPad for 500, downloaded the books from the Piratesbay and uploaded them to the iPad. So much cheaper and more convenient. US students are facing a social genocide with the prices of these textbook and the general US college experience.

btw aspirant, I have looked at your mock-up again. Dont do femurs.. Your legs will look horrible. Do the 4.5-5cm on tibia like you planned before. That's my opinion

I should make a new mock up to reflect my new plans I just think that if at 175.5 I do 4.5 that would put me in a situation that is not much differetn than my current one and that is not worth staying in Mitkovic cage 6 months..

[PatientZero]

I believe that, based on what  I read here, the vast majority of patients of the top doctors in the US and Europe did not experience any complications or certainly any serious complications which required additional payments.

I've noticed that the statistics don't apply to you and that you'll have a perfect lengthening.

Furthermore, many other patients have the surgery and never write in these forums. If somebody has a complication, he is more likely to write in order to ask for help or warn the others.

Come on man, this is 100% speculation. Many people do not write diaries, most people do not have diaries nor did they give two sh1ts to come here and warn you because they want to overcome and move on with their lives.

I feel like you're just saying whatever to justify not saving up money for complications. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I am supportive of what you want to do to improve your life because I know how you feel, but you have to be realistic.

If you are serious about doing LL and financing this operation by yourself, you will save money for complications and not force this upon your family if something goes wrong. It would be a selfish act on your part.

[Thatdude950]

I believe that, based on what  I read here, the vast majority of patients of the top doctors in the US and Europe did not experience any complications or certainly any serious complications which required additional payments. Furthermore, many other patients have the surgery and never write in these forums. If somebody has a complication, he is more likely to write in order to ask for help or warn the others. While it is of course helpful to have 15-20k just in case, I think that, at least statistically, complications with the best doctors (assuming one does reasonable amount and follows instructions) are unlikely.

You're trying to rationalise this, but you're kidding yourself. People don't get complications and then start posting. I can think of maybe one example of this happening (Crimson?) but even then I'm not sure, maybe he had an original diary too. On the whole patients start a diary pre LL, then when something happens we hear about it. There's no selection bias for complications.

If you seriously believe that the vast majority of patients (say 90% +) with western doctors have no complications you haven't read enough diaries.

[aboali1022]

With all due respect, you will bury yourself with debt for 4 or 5 cms that will not affect your height much since you are already 175.5 cm. It’s not like you are 160 and living in misery. I respect your wish bro and I know you have your reasons, not judging here. I just think you should give it more thoughts.

[Penguinn]

With all due respect, you will bury yourself with debt for 4 or 5 cms that will not affect your height much since you are already 175.5 cm. It’s not like you are 160 and living in misery. I respect your wish bro and I know you have your reasons, not judging here. I just think you should give it more thoughts.

^Seconded

[chineseguy]

where you from mr starter?

[Deads]

^Seconded

Trifected

Im 169 and I question whether I want the surgery at all.... You're going to get into a ton of debt for a surgery you don't need, for an amount that won't be noticable. It's your life, do what you want.

[aspirant185]

I ve read a diary at old forum  about a guy with starting height 174.5 who did 7.5 with Betz and he says that dramatically improved his life. Being 175.5 means that I am below average at all Western societies. Even with 5 cm I would be pretty much above average everywhere and if I complete my planned lengthening of 7.5 I would be 6 f tall. I think going from below average to visibly above average is worth it. I think it will be really noticable and will improve my life.

[Penguinn]

I ve read a diary at old forum  about a guy with starting height 174.5 who did 7.5 with Betz and he says that dramatically improved his life. Being 175.5 means that I am below average at all Western societies. Even with 5 cm I would be pretty much above average everywhere and if I complete my planned lengthening of 7.5 I would be 6 f tall. I think going from below average to visibly above average is worth it. I think it will be really noticable and will improve my life.

IN MY OPINION(You can ignore this if you want) Only people who are noticeably held back by height; midgets and really short guys should do LL. Wanting to go from average to tall is a luxury not a necessityish, and going into serious debt for that won't be "improving your life" by any means. Now if you're tall, rich as fk with idle time and want to be taller...go for it I guess. In your situation, I wouldn't. Or at least wait until the money is saved.

[KiloKAHN]

Doesn't Dr Betz charge $25,000 alone for a titanium nail replacement if the Betzbone breaks?

[TIBIKE200]

I ve read a diary at old forum  about a guy with starting height 174.5 who did 7.5 with Betz and he says that dramatically improved his life. Being 175.5 means that I am below average at all Western societies. Even with 5 cm I would be pretty much above average everywhere and if I complete my planned lengthening of 7.5 I would be 6 f tall. I think going from below average to visibly above average is worth it. I think it will be really noticable and will improve my life.

  Improve them in which aspects?

[Adonis]

From a statistical point of view, going from 174 to 182 is probably the most significant 8cm change us guys could make (for white Americans, in any case). That is, if you wanted the answer to: what any 8cm height change would give us the biggest impact in the perceptions of others? Let me explain. Let's assume that we want to impress the opposite sex (or for gays, the same sex). Either way, everything else in the attraction formula being equal, we are competing against other guys, hence the relativeness of the numbers and samples. What I'm saying is that there is no absolute number in which height is no longer a factor, such as 180 or 183, as these are place and time dependent.

So why 174 to 182? If you look at the height percentiles of white males in the USA, say at 30 years of age they're at a max (but it doesn't matter which age you look at), soassuming that as the playing field, for any 8cm band the range in which the isoheight lines bunch up more closely together is around the median or 50th percentile. It's logical too if you think of height distributions as following a normal curve; by definition the top of the curve is the flattest, so smaller changes in height would mean relatively bigger changes in percentiles.

So this means that moving from below average to above average would give you the largest change in percentiles. Taking the 174 to 182 cm example, that would mean moving from the 25th to 75th percentile. Any other height change would give you a lower change in percentile. Or less bang for the cm, if you want.

Now you may ask: does this really matter? If we assume that comparisons are made and that relative differences are important (ie "he's not tall but he's still taller than Tom Cruise"), then yes this matters. We can still debate if this is correct from the female point of view (I'll never know for sure), but there is research that shows that women compare heights, choosing the taller partner above other more favourable characteristics, and they also prefer a partner who is 8-10 cm taller that they are.

Here's the link for the height percentiles: http://halls.md/average-height-men-height-weight/

- Adonis

[aspirant185]

  Improve them in which aspects?

I guess he feels his life is improved the same way as a 165 cm guy going to 172 would think - more confidence, more attention from women etc.

[Alu]

You know what also would improve people's lives?

Not worrying about debt ever. Because it doesn't matter how confident you are you won't live the life you want...

Also being smart about life and not putting your eggs in one basket is also going to make life good for you..