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[YellowSpike]

Can anyone provide any information or point me to the relevant diaries (even if on the "old site," if you know of any diaries off the top of your head) that would give me as much color as possible regarding the tibia LL process. I am interested in doing a small amount on tibias (probably no more than 4cm to keep the risks in check), but Dr. Guichet (who did femurs on me) keeps advising me against tibias and saying that the recovery time (even for a small lengthening amount) would be very long.

I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place because more on femurs would be easy, but would result in bad proportions (although my proportions look pretty good now, especially because I've bulked my thighs back up) and potentially biomechanic issues. I feel that tibias are a much more difficult choice, but overall better for the long-term. 

Would it be possible to be walking unaided within 3 months for 4cm on tibias? Or is this completely out of the question?

[ub40]

Yea im curious about this too, and which method would be the fastest for recovery

[YellowSpike]

Yeah. Tibias really scare me. I know many people have done them and have been fine, but I don't know, they just scare me. And Dr. G warning me not to do them (although, he is super conservative and holds his patients to very high standards, so there's that too) is making me even more hesitant.

I might have to accept my current height, but I really don't want to. I feel like I'm so close to being at least a low average, but yet, so far. Very frustrating.

[aspirant185]

I am considering doing 4 cm with Dr. Mitkovic and I have read a lot of diaries of people doing tibias with him or tibias with other doctors. Unfortunately, most of the people did relatively large lengthening, 6+ so cannot really tell, I mean 6 is a lot more than 4, that ls like 50% more..., but from what I read, people returned to normal walking at the end of the 6th month and recovered completely towards the end of the 10th, meaning the had the frames removed then.

With that being said, I am pretty sure that with Dr. Guichet you would be able to walk normally, provided you do only 4 cm, towards the end of the 4th month, probably earlier but surely until the end of the 4th. Still, if he is so adamant that you shouldnt do it then it might be the case that he doesnt feel comfortable operating your tibias and you should go with another doctor.

[YellowSpike]

I think Dr. G doesn't want to do tibias on me for the following reasons:

1. According to his (very high) standards, I "healed slowly" on my femurs (but I sort of attribute this to my fault - I didn't walk as much as I should have early on after clicking because I was afraid to, even though Gnail is weight-bearing

2. According to him as well, femurs are a good indicator of how tibias will go, and since I healed slower than he would have liked on femurs, he's worried tibias might be exponentially longer

I blame myself for healing relatively slowly (although, I still think I did well on average across all internal femur patients). I should have walked a lot more without crutches early on. What impeded me were the stairs in my apartment and also the fact that it was winter right after I finished clicking, and so the conditions weren't the best for walking. But this definitely played a big part in my slow-ish consolidation. And my left leg took a bit longer, but I think everyone has a good leg and a bad leg.

[KiloKAHN]

Does Dr G perform cosmetic tibia lengthening anymore? I don't recall anyone doing tibs with him, maybe I'm mistaken. I think you should contact some other surgeons who perform CLL, maybe even ones who prefer doing tibs like Dr Catagni in Italy, send in your x-rays, and see if you get a different response. One risk of you doing another round of femur lengthening is that although you may be rid of your height neurosis there's a possibility that you'll start to fret over disproportion between segments later on and it can weigh on you mentally.

[YellowSpike]

Does Dr G perform cosmetic tibia lengthening anymore? I don't recall anyone doing tibs with him, maybe I'm mistaken. I think you should contact some other surgeons who perform CLL, maybe even ones who prefer doing tibs like Dr Catagni in Italy, send in your x-rays, and see if you get a different response. One risk of you doing another round of femur lengthening is that although you may be rid of your height neurosis there's a possibility that you'll start to fret over disproportion between segments later on and it can weigh on you mentally.

Yeah, that's exactly my concern. I don't want to trade height neurosis for proportion neurosis. My proportions now are fine now (and look better lately, because my thighs are bulked back up), but I'm very borderline as to if I could pull off another inch proportion wise. I'm leaning towards no...but my proportions (or at least, the look of them) I think have improved due to regaining much of the lost muscle on my thighs. But regardless, this isn't even mentioning potential biomechanic issues down the road.

I'm going to start contacting other doctors regarding tibias and let them know that the doctor who did femurs on me (I'll try to withhold his name) really does not want me to do tibias.

I believe that Dr. G does do tibias, but in very rare circumstances. I don't know the method he uses, but my understanding is that while he does do tibias, he greatly prefers femurs.

[TIBIKE200]

why not to try catagni?

[YellowSpike]

The more I think about this sh*t, the more it seems I may very well be stuck at 5'8". Which isn't the end of the world...just not where I'd personally prefer to be (5'9-5'10", which is at least average-ish). I'm a perfectionist, and just knowing that I really haven't done ALL that I can to fix my height issue (haven't done tibias) I'm sure will be a recurring thing I struggle with. But I will say therapy is helping a little bit.

I'm still somewhat considering 2cm max on my femurs just to get to 175cm evening height. Dr. G. sent me a picture of a patient (blurred his face) who did (no joke) 18cm on just his femurs from a starting height of I believe 162cm. The picture he sent me showed the guy in a shirt and shorts, and I could see his entire body. He actually looked totally fine in clothes...but nked with a woman, might be a very different story. And then I remember Leechlet actually didn't look bad after 10cm and he was like 160cm to start with. So maybe I can pull off another 2cm for 9cm in total, even if proportions won't be totally ideal. I'm very, very on the fence about this, obviously. My proportions now look really good because I've bulked my quads back up, which create the illusion of shorter quads (in earlier pictures that I shared with others, my proportions looked worse because my quads were very thin).

Maybe in my mid 30s after I've been working here longer and have bought property (looking to buy a place this year or next) and have some cash to burn, I'll be in a better position to do tibias. I think they're the overall better solution...but I also want to get on my with life and put LL/broken bones/surgery/height disphoria behind me as much as possible.

[aspirant185]

How much did you increase your Femurs ?

Man, it would be close to insane to break your femurs one more time to add 2 cm and pay Guichet 70k more. Are you crazy

Just contact another top doctor, go to Betz or Monegal or Dr. Franz in South Affrica, they are at the same price range , you can comfortably get 4-5 cm on your tibias, look proportionate, pay less.....why would you pay 70k more for 2 cm and break your barely healed bones again

[YellowSpike]

How much did you increase your Femurs ?

Man, it would be close to insane to break your femurs one more time to add 2 cm and pay Guichet 70k more. Are you crazy

Just contact another top doctor, go to Betz or Monegal or Dr. Franz in South Affrica, they are at the same price range , you can comfortably get 4-5 cm on your tibias, look proportionate, pay less.....why would you pay 70k more for 2 cm and break your barely healed bones again

Dude...it is not 70K to re-do the femurs. It's about 20K-25K max. Still a lot of money for one inch of height...but the main draw is the super fast recovery, having the comfort of knowing it's Dr. G (with whom I already have a rapport), etc. I would NEVER entertain the notion of 1 inch for 70K!

[Alittletooshort]

Yellowspike did you ask paco about his experience? He did 6cm's on his tibias with Dr. Monegal, perhaps could help you out.
I personally woudln't risk splitting my patella for 3-4cm's if I was you but obviously you know best what's good for you.
Your proportions will be kinda bad anyways so doing 2cm's more on your femurs would be cheaper, faster and safer.

[YellowSpike]

Your proportions will be kinda bad anyways so doing 2cm's more on your femurs would be cheaper, faster and safer.

What do you mean? My torso/leg proportions can handle easily 5cm more height...its my femur/tibia proportions I'm most concerned about.

And yeah you're right. That's why 2cm more on femurs sounds great...faster, cheaper, and safer. The ONLY issue is proportions. But just knowing that I'd be about 5'9" at night...I'd worry less about the shoes I'm wearing, and be right around the height where you start to really blend in height wise.

If only there was a better way to do tibias.

[Alittletooshort]

What do you mean? My torso/leg proportions can handle easily 5cm more height...its my femur/tibia proportions I'm most concerned about.

And yeah you're right. That's why 2cm more on femurs sounds great...faster, cheaper, and safer. The ONLY issue is proportions. But just knowing that I'd be about 5'9" at night...I'd worry less about the shoes I'm wearing, and be right around the height where you start to really blend in height wise.

If only there was a better way to do tibias.

How much did you lengthen by now? 6.5 or somerhing like that? So 3-4 would make you 10cm's taller and I haven't seen anyone with good proportions after such an amount, that's why I said kinda bad anyways.
I have to say that I'm very conservative about porportions so others might be ok with somerhing I consider unacceptable.
Femurs can be hidden quit easily, just wear your pants slightly lower and no one will be able to tell. Doing tibias internally are not only a waste of money but they also have no advantage when it comes to recovery or your knee health (compared to LON or externals), 2cm's more on your femurs should be a walk in the park compared to this.
I woudln't do anything if a Dr. like Guichet advises me against it, I'm sure he knows better than any  member here. Just imagine wasting 2 years of your life and splitting your patella twice for just 4 cm's (I didn't even include the amounts of money you'd have to spend).

[YellowSpike]

How much did you lengthen by now? 6.5 or somerhing like that? So 3-4 would make you 10cm's taller and I haven't seen anyone with good proportions after such an amount, that's why I said kinda bad anyways.
I have to say that I'm very conservative about porportions so others might be ok with somerhing I consider unacceptable.
Femurs can be hidden quit easily, just wear your pants slightly lower and no one will be able to tell. Doing tibias internally are not only a waste of money but they also have no advantage when it comes to recovery or your knee health (compared to LON or externals), 2cm's more on your femurs should be a walk in the park compared to this.
I woudln't do anything if a Dr. like Guichet advises me against it, I'm sure he knows better than any  member here. Just imagine wasting 2 years of your life and splitting your patella twice for just 4 cm's (I didn't even include the amounts of money you'd have to spend).

I did 7cm, possibly a bit more (7.3cm max). My height seems to have increased by about this much, as well.

If only my starting height were an inch or two more...I'd be golden right now...but yeah...I agree with you. I take Dr. Guichet's advice VERY seriously. He is turning away a ton more of my money from doing tibias (he does tibias in small amount of circumstances) and telling me that they take very long to heal, even for small lengthening amounts.

So my choices might just be my current height or an inch more with slightly (more?) effed up proportions. My proportions are fine now, but I don't know...I feel like I'm in a no-win situation. It sucks.

[Overdozer]

May I ask why you don't want to do externals? The damage overall is less and if you just want to lengthen 4 cms, it should take around 6-8 months total. The tib-fem props will be much better this way. IMO either do tibs or don't do anything at all - 1 inch isn't big of a difference anyways

[Deads]

I did 7cm, possibly a bit more (7.3cm max). My height seems to have increased by about this much, as well.

If only my starting height were an inch or two more...I'd be golden right now...but yeah...I agree with you. I take Dr. Guichet's advice VERY seriously. He is turning away a ton more of my money from doing tibias (he does tibias in small amount of circumstances) and telling me that they take very long to heal, even for small lengthening amounts.

So my choices might just be my current height or an inch more with slightly (more?) effed up proportions. My proportions are fine now, but I don't know...I feel like I'm in a no-win situation. It sucks.

One inch is nothing. You're more concerned with the number than the actual height increase.. (E.g. "I need to be an inch taller because according to statistics that's the average height"). Go and stand in front of someone that is 2cm-2.5 taller than you, it's an INCH. You really think that one INCH is life changing or even noticeable?

If you want to do this, make it worth your time and do Tibias.. Guichet's specialty is femurs so that's why he favours them. Many people have done tibs and come out the other end fine.. Take Medium Drink of Water for example. I think he did 7cm?

Do the 4-5cm on your TIBS. You'll never look back on this again.. 4-5cm is very conservative and gets you to that place you want to be.

[YellowSpike]

One inch is nothing. You're more concerned with the number than the actual height increase.. (E.g. "I need to be an inch taller because according to statistics that's the average height"). Go and stand in front of someone that is 2cm-2.5 taller than you, it's an INCH. You really think that one INCH is life changing or even noticeable?

If you want to do this, make it worth your time and do Tibias.. Guichet's specialty is femurs so that's why he favours them. Many people have done tibs and come out the other end fine.. Take Medium Drink of Water for example. I think he did 7cm?

Do the 4-5cm on your TIBS. You'll never look back on this again.. 4-5cm is very conservative and gets you to that place you want to be.

An inch makes more of a difference than you're giving it credit for. Not a one inch lift (which don't actually increase your height by a full inch)...but an actual inch of height, while not earth shattering by any means, is visible. 5'9" guys are at the low end of average and blend in better than I do at 5'8". '

And, to be totally honest, this is just me bargaining with myself. I don't know if I'll ever have the time to do tibias. They take a very long time to heal, even with small lengthening amounts. That, and they are more prone to complications. So while I agree 4cm on tibias is the better long-term option, I maybe have to settle for less in my femurs (but proportions may force me out of that, still have to think about it and talk to Dr. G more). 

[westercoasten]

One inch is nothing. You're more concerned with the number than the actual height increase.. (E.g. "I need to be an inch taller because according to statistics that's the average height"). Go and stand in front of someone that is 2cm-2.5 taller than you, it's an INCH. You really think that one INCH is life changing or even noticeable?

If you want to do this, make it worth your time and do Tibias.. Guichet's specialty is femurs so that's why he favours them. Many people have done tibs and come out the other end fine.. Take Medium Drink of Water for example. I think he did 7cm?

Do the 4-5cm on your TIBS. You'll never look back on this again.. 4-5cm is very conservative and gets you to that place you want to be.

Thats not the way to do it, rather get shoelifts of 2,5 cm to try to feel it.

[YellowSpike]

Thats not the way to do it, rather get shoelifts of 2,5 cm to try to feel it.

I made a vow to never, ever wear shoe lifts again...and I'm not going back on that. So for me, doing an inch on tibs is the only option. Kinda sucks to have to break my ankles for an inch, but hey, at least my recovery shouldn't be that bad.

But for those who are saying it doesn't make a difference, it does. Every single inch between 5'7 and 5'10 is almost its own individual league (and when you're at 5'10" and up, you're completely safe at that point, unless dealing with extreme heightist b*tches, which you don't want anyway).

[CCMidwest]

Kinda sucks to have to break my ankles for an inch, but hey, at least my recovery shouldn't be that bad.

Huh?

Do you just mean from the abuse of LL on the ankle and Achilles?

[maximize]

I think Dr. G doesn't want to do tibias on me for the following reasons:

1. According to his (very high) standards, I "healed slowly" on my femurs (but I sort of attribute this to my fault - I didn't walk as much as I should have early on after clicking because I was afraid to, even though Gnail is weight-bearing

2. According to him as well, femurs are a good indicator of how tibias will go, and since I healed slower than he would have liked on femurs, he's worried tibias might be exponentially longer

I blame myself for healing relatively slowly (although, I still think I did well on average across all internal femur patients). I should have walked a lot more without crutches early on. What impeded me were the stairs in my apartment and also the fact that it was winter right after I finished clicking, and so the conditions weren't the best for walking. But this definitely played a big part in my slow-ish consolidation. And my left leg took a bit longer, but I think everyone has a good leg and a bad leg.

I think Dr. Guichet is probably right in his assessment. I doubt the problem with your slow healing was mainly lack of walking. Rate of healing from bone injury/surgery/distraction is more likely genetic and physiological than lifestyle related, as long as you were doing some physio and weightbearing.

We see an enormous variety in rate of callus formation on this site from one person to another. I imagine it has a lot to do with bone diameter, density, and vascularization, which should definitely be comparable going from femurs to tibias.

If I were you doing tibias, I would go external. But you'll have to plan a lot of time off for that.

So if you had a slow femur consolidation, you should probably expect to have an equally slow tibia consolidation.

[YellowSpike]

I think Dr. Guichet is probably right in his assessment. I doubt the problem with your slow healing was mainly lack of walking. Rate of healing from bone injury/surgery/distraction is more likely genetic and physiological than lifestyle related, as long as you were doing some physio and weightbearing.

We see an enormous variety in rate of callus formation on this site from one person to another. I imagine it has a lot to do with bone diameter, density, and vascularization, which should definitely be comparable going from femurs to tibias.

If I were you doing tibias, I would go external. But you'll have to plan a lot of time off for that.

So if you had a slow femur consolidation, you should probably expect to have an equally slow tibia consolidation.

The skeptic in me agrees with what you're saying. My consolation in my left leg was slow. I also was a light smoker (I stopped pre-op, but went back to it over the summer and fall). I've quit now. Dr. Rozbruch said femurs aren't necessarily an indication of how tibias will go, and said ratcheting rods can be rough on healing. Dr. Paley said something similar. But yeah, tibias concern me for this reason. I just want 3cm more though.

[Lgazer]

TIbias are more complicated than femurs. Expect a healing time twice as long as with them

[Alittletooshort]

TIbias are more complicated than femurs. Expect a healing time twice as long as with them

I actually read that femurs heal 25% faster than tibias, so twice as long is a little exaggerated.

[YellowSpike]

I agree that tibias take longer, but I'm only looking for like 2.5-3cm more to make me a strong 5'9". That's all that I want. Dr. Rozbruch and Dr. Paley said, even with Dr. Guichet telling me (which I challenged them both on) I shouldn't do tibias, that I will almost surely be fine for such a small amount (especially now that I've quit smoking entirely at this point for 2 months now). They also both said that ratcheting rods can sometimes cause slower healing as it is, and Dr. Guichet somewhat admitted this (without saying it) because he told me that his patients keep the rods in sometimes for 2 years or more (whereas Precice patients get them out earlier for similar lengthening amounts).

My only issue now is choosing between internal tibias (because I won't be in frames for 6 months) or external (which lets me walk right away, but I'm stuck in frames for probably too long given my career). That's my main dilemma.

Internal tibs (Precice) - non-weight bearing, slight (according to Roz/Paley) chance of knee pain, but could be weight-bearing within 3 months for just 2.5/3cm

Ex-Fix - only drawback is that I'd be stuck in frames for like 4-5 months

[goodlucktomylegs]

I agree that tibias take longer, but I'm only looking for like 2.5-3cm more to make me a strong 5'9". That's all that I want. Dr. Rozbruch and Dr. Paley said, even with Dr. Guichet telling me (which I challenged them both on) I shouldn't do tibias, that I will almost surely be fine for such a small amount (especially now that I've quit smoking entirely at this point for 2 months now). They also both said that ratcheting rods can sometimes cause slower healing as it is, and Dr. Guichet somewhat admitted this (without saying it) because he told me that his patients keep the rods in sometimes for 2 years or more (whereas Precice patients get them out earlier for similar lengthening amounts).

My only issue now is choosing between internal tibias (because I won't be in frames for 6 months) or external (which lets me walk right away, but I'm stuck in frames for probably too long given my career). That's my main dilemma.

Internal tibs (Precice) - non-weight bearing, slight (according to Roz/Paley) chance of knee pain, but could be weight-bearing within 3 months for just 2.5/3cm

Ex-Fix - only drawback is that I'd be stuck in frames for like 4-5 months

Let do it
I am follwing your path

[YellowSpike]

lol I'm no "trailblazer" that's for damn sure. My inspirations were really ShyShy, OBG, PD and ChrisIsaak.

I have to post a video of me running soon. If I had taken more time off from work, I could have recovered much sooner, but I wanted to financially recover (which I have, I'm back to where I was pre-op financially) and keep banking money (house, second LL, etc.). Shy told me he was able to fully focus on LL during the recovery/post-clicking phase whereas I was not. Too much sitting in an office job makes recovery take a lot longer. And I had the left screw issue too which made my life much harder. For just over 7cm, I could have been closer to ShyShy, but a lot of it is luck/genetics too.

[YellowSpike]

Also...goodlucktomylegs...you're 5'10". LOL...all you 5'10" guys thinking you're short...wow...but "good luck to your legs" lol

[Alittletooshort]

I agree that tibias take longer, but I'm only looking for like 2.5-3cm more to make me a strong 5'9". That's all that I want. Dr. Rozbruch and Dr. Paley said, even with Dr. Guichet telling me (which I challenged them both on) I shouldn't do tibias, that I will almost surely be fine for such a small amount (especially now that I've quit smoking entirely at this point for 2 months now). They also both said that ratcheting rods can sometimes cause slower healing as it is, and Dr. Guichet somewhat admitted this (without saying it) because he told me that his patients keep the rods in sometimes for 2 years or more (whereas Precice patients get them out earlier for similar lengthening amounts).

My only issue now is choosing between internal tibias (because I won't be in frames for 6 months) or external (which lets me walk right away, but I'm stuck in frames for probably too long given my career). That's my main dilemma.

Internal tibs (Precice) - non-weight bearing, slight (according to Roz/Paley) chance of knee pain, but could be weight-bearing within 3 months for just 2.5/3cm

Ex-Fix - only drawback is that I'd be stuck in frames for like 4-5 months

Are you sure you want to split your patella twice for a little more than an inch? Externals are annoying and have to be worn for a long time but otherwise you might end up with permanent knee pain for the rest of your life. In case of just 2,5cm's you will probably wear them for not longer than 4 months. You'd also be wheight bearing from the start. 
Not to talk about the financial aspect of externals compared to precise.

[YellowSpike]

Are you sure you want to split your patella twice for a little more than an inch? Externals are annoying and have to be worn for a long time but otherwise you might end up with permanent knee pain for the rest of your life. In case of just 2,5cm's you will probably wear them for not longer than 4 months. You'd also be wheight bearing from the start. 
Not to talk about the financial aspect of externals compared to precise.

I'm only considering internals because a certain doctor said, due to a (non-LL) slight deformity I have, I might be able to get insurance coverage. But I agree with you...I think I'd rather do externals and be weight-bearing. Tibias scare me regardless, but that last inch I want would make my femurs way, way too long (they look just fine now, even if slightly long).

If I could get my last inch and be out of the frames in 4 months max, then I might be able to pull it off and not completely ruin my career/job. It's all based on that. And I'd go to Dr. Catagni most likely (or see if Rozbruch can do externals, I don't think he does them anymore).