Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Thatdude950]

A lot of diaries have ambiguous endings under or around a year after lengthening. I've added the ones that stand out - clear positives, clear negatives, or outcomes that were at least updated signifantly after lengthening. There are so many diaries to read. This is probably 10% or so of them, if not less. Hopefully this is useful. Feel free to add others. If you're here & not happy with what I've said, I will add in your response.

Good outcomes:
ShyShy - Happy with result, no further surgery.
Medium Drink of Water - Happy with result, no further surgery.
badboy - Happy with result
Apo - Happy with result (my opinion - good aesthetics, very slow running)
Hannah84 - Happy with result
stillyoung - Happy with result
Lara - Happy with result
upinthesky - Happy with result
stillyoung - happy with outcome, claims ~200+ pound deadlift and squat for reps (video evidence pending)

Neutral outcomes:
Smallguy - Required further corrective surgery but seems happy with the overall result.
Tdot - Decided to have further surgery
The_Rock - Happy with outcome, but running is ~70% of pre LL ability, explosiveness 40 - 50% (unacceptable in my opinion)
Growing - Happy with result, but has not recovered athletically after ~3 years.
Ocean - Required further corrective surgery but seems happy with the overall result.
Body Builder - Happy with outcome, but says his athletic ability was significantly diminished.
Dryani - Seems happy, but has not done more than walk +2 years after LL. Athletic ability also seems significantly diminished.
Yellowspike - Continued height neurosis, looking at further surgery
prince2 -  "Getting back to where I was before is impossible if you ask me. That will never happen. If I get back 70 % I would be very happy."   despite this he seems satisfied.
OldieButGoldie - Unhappy with post LL functionality. Updated: I saw a post by OldiebutGoodie (see reply #99 in OldieButGoldie's Patient's Experience Topic) - he wasn't happy with my assessment. He didn't think the surgery was worth it, but had no complications and doesn't consider it a poor outcome

Poor outcomes:
Walk6 - Unhappy with post LL functionality
RGKEY - Moderate deformation, loss of functionality, further surgery planned (I believe?)
Greekster - Unacceptable recovery after 3 years, multiple lengthenings.
daigoro - Serious complications - corrective surgery required (callus fracture), loss of functionality
Emanuel- Serious complications, multiple corrective surgeries, loss of functionality
Master Hy- Serious complications - multiple corrective surgeries ($250,000 + financial loss), loss of function
Crimsontide - Serious complications - multiple corrective surgeries, loss of functionality
programdude - Serious complications - Leg snapped post lengthening, corrective surgery required.
Polycrates - Regret, continuance (worsening?) of BDD symptoms re: proportions
Sweden - Unhappy with post LL function, continuance (worsening?) of BDD symptoms re: proportions, considering further surgery
blackbear - Serious complications - multiple corrective surgeries, loss of functionality
crazy+6 - Serious complications, corrective surgeries, multiple lengthenings, loss of functionality
Strugglinghard - Serious complications, loss of functionality
Cooper -  "Serious complications, corrective surgery(s) required, 100k+ in additional costs.
musicmaker - "multiple corrective surgeries required"
BigFaker. 3+ years later and cannot run. Multiple corrective surgeries. Right leg only 65 - 70% healed, left leg had a non Union

Unknown outcomes of note
Leechlet - Dissapeared abruptly.
Big D - stopped posting after 6 months, but on a positive note.

Other outcomes
mmm_native - multiple corrective surgeries & loss of function. Initially lengthened with an uknown doctor in Iran.
prince2 - 1.5 years post lengthening he still is not allowed (able?) to run, but seems to be happy & getting better.
andrewshizzles - He's an interesting one. He's able to run and move around OK. He runs a 30 minute 5k which is very very average but not awful, can shoot hoops OK etc. But he had a serious complication - his nail broke post recovery, his leg snapped in half and he had to fly half way around the world for emergency surgery.

Edited: For Thatdude950 to include updates/additions to original post (May 2016)

[Deads]

A lot of diaries have ambiguous endings under or around a year after lengthening. I've added the ones that stand out - clear positives, clear negatives, or outcomes that were at least updated signifantly after lengthening. There are so many diaries to read. This is probably 10% or so of them, if not less. Hopefully this is useful. Feel free to add others. If you're here & not happy with what I've said, I will add in your response.

Good outcomes:
ShyShy - Happy with result, no further surgery.
Medium Drink of Water - Happy with result, no further surgery.
badboy - Happy with result
Apo - Happy with result (my opinion - good aesthetics, very slow running)
Hannah84 - Happy with result
stillyoung - Happy with result
Lara - Happy with result
upinthesky - Happy with result

Neutral outcomes:
Smallguy - Required further corrective surgery but seems happy with the overall result.
Tdot - Decided to have further surgery
The_Rock - Happy with outcome, but running is ~70% of pre LL ability, explosiveness 40 - 50% (unacceptable in my opinion)
Growing - Happy with result, but has not recovered athletically after ~3 years.
Ocean - Required further corrective surgery but seems happy with the overall result.
Body Builder - Happy with outcome, but says his athletic ability was significantly diminished.
Dryani - Seems happy, but has not done more than walk +2 years after LL. Athletic ability also seems significantly diminished.

Poor outcomes:
Walk6 - Unhappy with post LL functionality
RGKEY - Moderate deformation, loss of functionality, further surgery planned (I believe?)
OldieButGoodie - Unhappy with post LL functionality.
Greekster - Unacceptable recovery after 3 years, multiple lengthenings.
daigoro - Serious complications - corrective surgery required (callus fracture), loss of functionality
Emanuel- Serious complications, multiple corrective surgeries, loss of functionality
Master Hy- Serious complications - multiple corrective surgeries ($250,000 + financial loss), loss of function
Crimsontide - Serious complications - multiple corrective surgeries, loss of functionality
programdude - Serious complications - Leg snapped post lengthening, corrective surgery required.
Yellowspike - Continued height neurosis, looking at further surgery
Polycrates - Regret, continuance (worsening?) of BDD symptoms re: proportions
Sweden - Unhappy with post LL function, continuance (worsening?) of BDD symptoms re: proportions, considering further surgery
blackbear - Serious complications - multiple corrective surgeries, loss of functionality
crazy+6 - Serious complications, corrective surgeries, multiple lengthenings, loss of functionality
Strugglinghard - Serious complications, loss of functionality

Unknown outcomes of note
Leechlet - Dissapeared abruptly.
Big D - stopped posting after 6 months, but on a positive note.

Other outcomes
mmm_native - multiple corrective surgeries & loss of function. Initially lengthened with an uknown doctor in Iran.
prince2 - 1.5 years post lengthening he still is not allowed (able?) to run, but seems to be happy & getting better.

Interesting.. Are you able to post the amount lengthened and the portion lengthened for each person? That would definitely make it statistically more interesting.

[Uppland]

Also consider the surgeon in question, and you're missing some positive outcomes from people who just did AMA's instead of writing a diary.

[Overdozer]

Thank god I'm not even there. Because I just was busy/got bored updating it. Probably will post an aftermath at some point. Maybe

[Deads]

Also consider the surgeon in question, and you're missing some positive outcomes from people who just did AMA's instead of writing a diary.

Second this.

[jaymorgan712]

Alot of people who lost their athletic ability or had weaker muscles etc went past 6 centimetres in the tibia.

[Ozymandias]

Good list! But I agree that it would be cool if the list included the amount lengthened. Many of the "poor outcomes" were by people who lengthened 9 or 10 cm in one sector (mostly external tibiae), which is a receipt for disaster. As many doctors stated, a loss of functionality is not surprising for such cases.

Also, I would list as "poor outcomes" only those cases which resulted in some kind of physical problem, not psychological issues like regrets or height neurosis not solved.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

The people who say they lost too much athleticism may get it back eventually.  Even after being fully consolidated and having my internal nails removed, it took about a year for me to get to 90%.

[Alu]

I was wondering where you were Thatdude950. Funny that a guy who's anti-LL would provide such a valuable thread; so I thank you for this.

[theuprising]

Posted this before and here it is again regarding tibia lengthening.


Dr Donghoon Lee who has followed up with over 400 CLL patients had this to say

From Walk6 diary
"I personally asked Dr. Lee what he thought about this (lengthening past 6 cm) and he has told me that from his experience in talking to former lengthening patients (2-3 years post recovery) those that only lengthened 5 cm recovered fully and their previous athleticism returned close to 100% to pre-LL levels. On the other hand, those who chose to lengthen between 6 and 7 centimeters recovered 100% in performing daily functions (walking, light jogging, etc), BUT only recovered about 60-70% of their pre-LL athleticism when engaging in serious sports/strenuous activities (full sprinting, jumping, basketball, rugby,etc..). Additionally, those that lengthened beyond 7 cm saw an ever greater decline in their previous athletic abilities.

In short, those who lengthen beyond 5 cm will not be able to recover all of their pre-LL athletic abilities because their muscles, nerves, tendons will be stretched well beyond their natural limits and will be permanently damaged. He used the rubber band analogy and Dr. Lee believes strongly in this. Once a rubber band (muscle) is stretched beyond its natural limit, even if its by only half a centimeter, then it will begin to tear and will forever lose its previous elasticity. The muscle's natural limit seems to be at 5 cm for many patients, though it can be higher or lower depending on the patient's initial tibia/femur length."

[Thatdude950]

Although there's plenty of examples of patients needing corrective surgery, the most common negative theme is poor athletic recovery. If a patient genuinely does not care about being fit & mobile, & is happy with no activity outside of walking/jogging/basic movement, a number of diaries could be placed in the "good" category. Walk6, Oldiebutgoodie, dryani, bodybuilder ... they (I think) had had no complications, and for some this would be acceptable. (To me though, this kind of trade off is totally unacceptable...)

Also, as mentioned, some had no complications but were left with the same insecurities. These guys have massive balls for being honest about how they feel. (In fact, everyone keeping a diary & putting themselves out there has massive balls) But I think this does still constitute a poor result. What's the point of doing this if it doesn't actually help your height neurosis? I know people like to dismiss this "Oh, I *know* I won't feel that way" ... all I can say it look at the results. You aren't special. This is something that happens across the board with ALL cosmetic surgery, and is something you should take seriously.

Yes Alu, I'm still lurking . Honestly, I think the data speaks for itself. I hope it is useful.

[Deads]

Although there's plenty of examples of patients needing corrective surgery, the most common negative theme is poor athletic recovery. If a patient genuinely does not care about being fit & mobile, & is happy with no activity outside of walking/jogging/basic movement, a number of diaries could be placed in the "good" category. Walk6, Oldiebutgoodie, dryani, bodybuilder ... they (I think) had had no complications, and for some this would be acceptable. (To me though, this kind of trade off is totally unacceptable...)

Also, as mentioned, some had no complications but were left with the same insecurities. These guys have massive balls for being honest about how they feel. (In fact, everyone keeping a diary & putting themselves out there has massive balls) But I think this does still constitute a poor result. What's the point of doing this if it doesn't actually help your height neurosis? I know people like to dismiss this "Oh, I *know* I won't feel that way" ... all I can say it look at the results. You aren't special. This is something that happens across the board with ALL cosmetic surgery, and is something you should take seriously.

Yes Alu, I'm still lurking . Honestly, I think the data speaks for itself. I hope it is useful.

I'd say that this would be considered one of the most valuable threads on the forum if you could post the additional data (e.g amount lengthened, the portion and doctor) in the same fashion that you presented your original post.

[PatientZero]

This list is a reality check for 5'8+ dudes who think their life is magically going to improve after they casually lengthen 4cm, have an ultra successful career and bang tons of chicks after.

Also a wake up call for prospective patients who at the offset want to do quadrilateral. Stuff goes wrong first surgery, lets tempt nature a second time!

Limb lengthening is a last resort for short guys who are unable to overcome his social and professional shortcomings despite having improved all other facets of his personhood.

Personally, I would've never done this surgery if I started at 5'7.

[Uppland]

This list is a reality check for 5'8+ dudes who think their life is magically going to improve after they casually lengthen 4cm, have an ultra successful career and bang tons of chicks after.

Also a wake up call for prospective patients who at the offset want to do quadrilateral. Stuff goes wrong first surgery, lets tempt nature a second time!

Limb lengthening is a last resort for short guys who are unable to overcome his social and professional shortcomings despite having improved all other facets of his personhood.

Personally, I would've never done this surgery if I started at 5'7.

I don't know, it's true that I read a lot of troublesome outcomes but these are almost always from people who lengthen more than 5 cm in one segment and more often than not with a surgeon outside of western europe and nort america.

[ouroboros]

Did you know that one of Paley's patients had a fracture and another one died in 2015? Keep that in mind.

??   died???   where did you hear this?   was it a member of the forums?

[spaghetti743]

If anyone has any information about patient who died or the scenario please share.

[spaghetti743]

Most people say 6cm is safe. If someone does 6cm tibia can they recover then come back 2 years later to lengthen tibia again? Or is the 6cm limit 6cm lifetime recommended limit. Only taking tibias into account not femurs.

[Madmax_01]

Limb lengthening is a last resort for short guys who are unable to overcome his social and professional shortcomings despite having improved all other facets of his personhood.

Personally, I would've never done this surgery if I started at 5'7.

Word! I could not agree more!

By the way: A great thread with the compendiums. Maybe we could fill-in the information as a community (how much lenghtened, which limb, etc.)

[Alittletooshort]

The people who say they lost too much athleticism may get it back eventually.  Even after being fully consolidated and having my internal nails removed, it took about a year for me to get to 90%.

I don´t know if you have already answered this question in another thread but I´d like to know how your knees are doing besides the pain when kneeling on a hard surface?
Do you think that your patella is as strong as it was before the surgery? I´ve heard that the patella can burst when performing heavy exercises in the gym (heavy squats, leg press), that´s why I´m a little worried.
Would you do LON again if you had to make the choice again?

[Deads]

I got that info from medical sources. I don't know if this person was a member of the forums.

Which medical sources?

[Medium Drink Of Water]

I don´t know if you have already answered this question in another thread but I´d like to know how your knees are doing besides the pain when kneeling on a hard surface?
Do you think that your patella is as strong as it was before the surgery? I´ve heard that the patella can burst when performing heavy exercises in the gym (heavy squats, leg press), that´s why I´m a little worried.
Would you do LON again if you had to make the choice again?

Besides kneeling on a hard surface being uncomfortable, nothing's wrong with my knees to my knowledge.  I'm not worried about my patella bursting.  I don't think the surgery does anything to weaken the actual patella.  But I haven't tested it out with hundreds of pounds on the leg press machine because there's no way I could lift that much anyway.  I'm not a big, strong guy.

I was forced into LON for reasons beyond my control (being rejected by Mitkovic and not being able to afford anywhere known to me but Beijing after that).  It wasn't my first choice.  I wanted to do external-only tibias because it's the least invasive method.  In retrospect, I could've/should've asked Dr. Xia to do external-only and stay at the hospital longer but I didn't think of it at the time.  They were offering a package deal with everything included for LON and it didn't occur to me to deviate from that.

[verlings32]

From Paley website:

"How much money should I keep in reserve in case of a complication?

Complications, although infrequent, can occur and may require surgery to treat and to prevent a negative outcome. An example is premature consolidation of the bone which requires re-breaking the bone. Another is nerve entrapment which requires nerve decompression surgery. Another is muscle contracture which requires lengthening of muscles, tendons, or fascia. Finally, there can be failure of bone healing after the end of the distraction phase requiring repair of nonunion. The cost to treat most of these complications ranges from $12–$35,000.  "

So it is not a matter if you get a complication or not, because if you do the procedure, you should be prepared that it can occur. It is a matter of how the doctor help you afterwards and follow up.
When choosing a doctor, you do the research of him (or her) and then you decide to invest in the procedure. The doctor is a human being, and allthough doing his best, things can go wrong of course. As a patient, you must want LL so bad that you are willing to take that risk, having your body operated on. If complications should occur, you must not panic, because you know this can happen, however, you should feel safe that your choice of doctor is so trustworthy you know he does his best to correct it and make the situation as good as possible!

Find a good person you trust.

[Thatdude950]

Here's another post I found by Hanshi - he did something similar in 2014, going through each Betz diary.

I have read all the Dr.Betz diaries on old forum  and would like to share my findings:

There are currently 38 topics under the "Dr.Betz diaries" folder. 5 of them can't be used for this analysis: David-internal femurs, S-internal tiabias, Measurements, Nctham1, and Iwill. David cancelled his surgery, Nctham is not doing cosmetic LL and the other 3 don't contain enough information.
This leaves 33 cases, which is not a small sample and quite representative since these cases cover a long time span(over 8 years).

within this sample there are 12 patients  with confirrmed complications that required additional surgery:
1. Romegas (titanium replacement in 1 leg, reason unknown)
2. Tallix (titanium replacement in 1 leg due to delayed bone healing)
3. TibAndFemur (Nail bending)
4. Stillyoung (Nail bending/breaking)
5. Geheimes (Nail malfunction, bone rebroken and nail taken out and repaired)
6. Tall (Nail bending)
7. Badboy (Nail malfunction, nail exchanged, broken screw)
8. MasterHY ( wound opened and got infected, infected tissue removed surgically)
9. T.dot (nail malfunction twice. Twice nail replacement)
10. OldieButGoldie (2 broken screws)
11. Andrewshizzles (broken nail)
12. Apotheosis tibia (broken nail and delayed/non-union)

Further there are 5 diaries which end abruptly and have a high probability that the patient got a complication:

a. Timone (complains in his last post about bad bone consolidation)
b. Torontonian (vanishes very early during his lengthening)
c. Aymahano (has a lot of problems and vanishes)
d. NoSleep (vanishes just after finished clicking, was the 1st patient to use the new 11mm Betzbone)
e. DcLongFemurs (vanishes after finishing clicking, also has the 11mm Betzbone)

Are the others without complication? For my calculation i will assume so, but of course we cannot be 100% sure since we know that Other patients have tried to hide their complications. What's worth mentioning is that Lucky did have a nail malfunction. However she chose to stop lengthening at that point and therefore didn't undergo additional surgery. But she didn't reach her goal.
Also important is the vanishing of MasterHY. He had already a complication, but from his diary it is obvious that he has had a lot more problems. In my opinion he could very well have a dangerous bone infection.

Anyhow, due to the analysis we come to the following result:

Complication rate for Dr. Betz patients in our sample is between 36% and 52%. 36% is the best case scenario, 52% is the scenario where the 5 abruptly ending diaries all have had complications.
The real figure probably lies between both numbers in case some of those 5 didn't have complications.

I would recommend to read those diaries with open eyes. I have found some interesting information which seems to characterize Dr. Betz quite well. I will write about this at a later time.

I had listed "badboy" as having a good outcome, but only glanced through his diary. Looks like he had some complications along the way that I missed.

[TIBIKE200]

with which doctors the guys with the medicore and poor outcome did LL?

[Vendetta113]

with which doctors the guys with the medicore and poor outcome did LL?

We need to know the amount lengthened and which segment, too. I think the ones with mediocre/poor results either went to the advertised doctors in the old forums or lengthened beyond the optimal length, or maybe did internals.

^{Too lazy to go through all of the diaries to check}

BTW, KiloKAHN and bluebarbie's diary should be in positive outcomes. I guess Dozer too but he didn't finish his diary.

[texasbruce]

I got that info from medical sources. I don't know if this person was a member of the forums.

I would not believe you sorry, unless you mention specifically the "source".

There was no life loss case ever in this surgery, even in China and Russia.

[texasbruce]

No life loss case? Which are your sources? Some people have died as a result of this surgery and all doctors know about this. Some doctors have even described these disastrous outcomes in scholarly articles (e.g. Catagni). Paley is no exception to this. When you operate on many people some of them die. It's a matter of statistics.

I want to clarify that none of Monegal's patients has died (just in case...).

Yes people die in all types of surgeries, even the easiest ones. But I have yet to find a specific report of life loss of this surgery if you can link me to one.

[KiloKAHN]

BilateralDamage "Big D" can be moved to positive outcomes imo, based on what he told me. As of January last year he said he was lifting weights, walking miles a day, and running on the treadmill.

[Penguinn]

This is a very good idea. If it's not too much work, someone should list the patient, amount lengthened, doctor and diary.

[texasbruce]

One of the most common causes of death during LL is fat embolism. Have a look at this (I am copying from a post by Kilokahn):

Some patients who visited Catagni confirmed this fact.

Secondly, Dr Monegal explained in some of his first posts that there had been some deaths happening as a consequence of fat embolism during LL:

Thirdly, there have been some cases of kids suffering from dwarfism who also died as a consequence of the procedure. Some of them have been mentioned in this forum. One person said the girl was a patient of Monegal, but she wasn't. She was a patient of a different doctor in Barcelona.

https://es-es.facebook.com/Justicia-para-claudia-452811688217408/

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/04/13/catalunya/1428953407_417126.html

http://www.8tv.cat/8aldia/videos/uns-pares-reclamen-aclarir-la-mort-de-la-seva-filla-en-un-quirofan/

In Malaga there is another famous surgeon some of whose dwarf patients also died. 

And so on...

Read your quote...
This fatal outcome might also occur during limb lengthening, particularly in bilateral procedures. To our knowledge, fat embolism has not been reported with the use of centromedullary nail for limb lengthening.

Monegal said yes there are 3 cases of limb lengthening death, but they are all dwalfsm case and not cosmetic. Claudia did not die of surgical complication - her organs disappeared after the surgery

[YellowSpike]

A lot of diaries have ambiguous endings under or around a year after lengthening. I've added the ones that stand out - clear positives, clear negatives, or outcomes that were at least updated signifantly after lengthening. There are so many diaries to read. This is probably 10% or so of them, if not less. Hopefully this is useful. Feel free to add others. If you're here & not happy with what I've said, I will add in your response.

Good outcomes:
ShyShy - Happy with result, no further surgery.
Medium Drink of Water - Happy with result, no further surgery.
badboy - Happy with result
Apo - Happy with result (my opinion - good aesthetics, very slow running)
Hannah84 - Happy with result
stillyoung - Happy with result
Lara - Happy with result
upinthesky - Happy with result

Neutral outcomes:
Smallguy - Required further corrective surgery but seems happy with the overall result.
Tdot - Decided to have further surgery
The_Rock - Happy with outcome, but running is ~70% of pre LL ability, explosiveness 40 - 50% (unacceptable in my opinion)
Growing - Happy with result, but has not recovered athletically after ~3 years.
Ocean - Required further corrective surgery but seems happy with the overall result.
Body Builder - Happy with outcome, but says his athletic ability was significantly diminished.
Dryani - Seems happy, but has not done more than walk +2 years after LL. Athletic ability also seems significantly diminished.

Poor outcomes:
Walk6 - Unhappy with post LL functionality
RGKEY - Moderate deformation, loss of functionality, further surgery planned (I believe?)
OldieButGoodie - Unhappy with post LL functionality.
Greekster - Unacceptable recovery after 3 years, multiple lengthenings.
daigoro - Serious complications - corrective surgery required (callus fracture), loss of functionality
Emanuel- Serious complications, multiple corrective surgeries, loss of functionality
Master Hy- Serious complications - multiple corrective surgeries ($250,000 + financial loss), loss of function
Crimsontide - Serious complications - multiple corrective surgeries, loss of functionality
programdude - Serious complications - Leg snapped post lengthening, corrective surgery required.
Yellowspike - Continued height neurosis, looking at further surgery
Polycrates - Regret, continuance (worsening?) of BDD symptoms re: proportions
Sweden - Unhappy with post LL function, continuance (worsening?) of BDD symptoms re: proportions, considering further surgery
blackbear - Serious complications - multiple corrective surgeries, loss of functionality
crazy+6 - Serious complications, corrective surgeries, multiple lengthenings, loss of functionality
Strugglinghard - Serious complications, loss of functionality

Unknown outcomes of note
Leechlet - Dissapeared abruptly.
Big D - stopped posting after 6 months, but on a positive note.

Other outcomes
mmm_native - multiple corrective surgeries & loss of function. Initially lengthened with an uknown doctor in Iran.
prince2 - 1.5 years post lengthening he still is not allowed (able?) to run, but seems to be happy & getting better.

Wow thatdude. Good work you've done here lol.

I actually AM happy with my result. I made it to my initial realistic goal of 5'8". And, aside from the my left screw issue (hope to get it fixed soon), my recovery is very good (though not perfect). Soft tissue recovery takes a while, but stretching has been helping me so much. I'm just happy I was complication-free (unless you count the left screw issue). I'm just not satisfied. But I guess we're saying the same thing.

Also, even though I use a machine (makes it easier/safer, since squatting is harder with long femurs) and not a free barbell, I can squat 285 lbs right now

I would more say my outcome was good physically (would have been closer to ShyShy if not for the left screw and the fact that I had to sit/work a lot during clicking), but didn't solve the height neuroris.