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[XYZ]

As a community, we need to sort a few things out.  Yes I know we're all angry, confused, and bitter about what Syoptheosis has been doing over the last 2 years, but we need to now start thinking about how we can structure and utilise that passion for the greater good.

Currently, this site is a mess.  That's to be expected, of course: it's new, it's young, and it's built on fiery tempers and hurt.  That is fine.  We need time to come to terms with this and heal ourselves first.  But after that, we need direction.  We need the website, at a superficial level, to function in a way that allows people to share and organise views regarding limb lengthening, proportions, and dealing with height issues.

After the site is fully functional, we need to decide where to go next in terms of what we want this site to be.  As I see it, there are a couple of options:

• We model ourselves after old forum , yet make sure that those who govern the site are IMPARTIAL and not financially driven.  We make the site 100% transparent, and we DO NOT have ONE PERSON IN CONTROL.  This is what I think was the fundamental flaw with old forum .  It was founded by a mentally unsound, horrible, spiteful individual who then passed on the dictatorship to an equally messed-up and self-centered individual.
• We avoid any comparisons with old forum .  We structure the site differently, have a different philosophy etc.  Personally I feel the old forum  model is valid EXCEPT from the dictatorship that arises from it.  We need multiple people who have a shared, common goal which the community agrees on.

After the structure and politics of the site have been determined, we need to decide on how it's best to get the message out to other people that:

• We are the most transparent and helpful LL site
• old forum  is not transparent and SysOp and various other members are not to be trusted

How we go about doing these two raises numerous ethical issues: 

• Shall we just sit back and wait for people to join this forum? We won't appear very far up on searches on Google, so wouldn't it make sense for us to be pro-active and go 'guerrilla' in getting new members? 
• If we are to use Guerrilla tactics, where shall we draw the line?  Shall we limit ourselves to simply messaging as many old forum members as possible, linking them to the site, explaining the problems with old forum  etc.?
• Or do we do more? Do we use multiple ip addresses to create accounts, spam old forum , and take down the site from the inside?  Or do we push the boundaries and find Sysoptheosis' personal details, or even hack the site? Where do we draw the line?

This is a very delicate matter.  We can't just rush into this.  We need a long and lengthy debate about our course of action.  We need to know who's doing what and what collectively we are working towards.  I will do everything in my power to make sure justice is served to those he need it dealt to them.  In my personal opinion, I think we should:

• Get this site in order.  Set up sub-forums, avatars, signatures, etc.  We need to be proffesional before anyone takes us seriously.   
• Make sure our leadership model is clear, focused, and transparent.  Make sure everyone feels like the community is going forward in the right direction
• Go Guerrilla.  Make no mistake, I may be preaching peace here, but even I know peace cannot exist sometimes without war.  This is a war.  We are fighting against a serious tyranny which has ruined people's lives and deceived a whole community for financial gains. That is evil.  And we must remove it.

I hope what I've said has made sense and I HOPE we can get a mature discussion going about the points I have raised.  I want to help.  I want to help more than anything.

God bless you all.

[Snivy]

We have to take Apo down by any means necessary IMO. He's toying with people's lives. He's dangerous.

[XYZ]

We have to take Apo down by any means necessary IMO. He's toying with people's lives. He's dangerous.

I agree and I do think any action here is justified because it'll save more people than it'll harm.  I think ruining one guy's life, as horrible as it sounds, is justifiable if it saves many more from being ruined.

HOWEVER, my main message in my post was that we need to get organised and have a road-map before we take Apotheosis on.

[XYZ]

I'm willing to devote as much time and energy as it takes to take Apotheosis down and I hope Dameon (who I think is moderator here?) will contact me soon in the future, I have various ideas and initiatives to propose to him which I hope he'd consider and take on board

[An_Apple_A_Day]

We have to take Apo down by any means necessary IMO. He's toying with people's lives. He's dangerous.

I agree and I do think any action here is justified because it'll save more people than it'll harm.  I think ruining one guy's life, as horrible as it sounds, is justifiable if it saves many more from being ruined.

HOWEVER, my main message in my post was that we need to get organised and have a road-map before we take Apotheosis on.

We need a plan and it is pretty simple:

Keep this forum focused on LL and LL only.

Content is king.  Even by discussing old forum  or SysOp on here we are raising the site profile for search engines.

If we get our content sorted here with lots of good, honest information about the surgery then we will slowly out rank the other site in terms of search engine ranking.

The most recent examples of people being harmed due to LL never even went to a Dr mentioned on old forum  (Mmn's diary) or they went with Sarin and suffered complications (based on a thread in this forum).  Sarin is no longer on the recommended Doctor list so I can't see how you can really say it is directing people toward danger?

We need to be a hub of knowledge.  I mean just thinking extreme situation here, but imagine if we had some engineers or mechanics on board and we designed a new fixator or internal nail, cost effective, patented to the forum, and sold to doctors at base costs.  We would help everyone!  That's the kind of cloud thinking we need.  No more bloody battle plans or revenge attacks.  Positive focus and energy moving forward.

And if you all are blood thirsty and want vengeance then planning it on an open forum where everyone can see is just about as stupid as you can get.

[XYZ]

We have to take Apo down by any means necessary IMO. He's toying with people's lives. He's dangerous.

I agree and I do think any action here is justified because it'll save more people than it'll harm.  I think ruining one guy's life, as horrible as it sounds, is justifiable if it saves many more from being ruined.

HOWEVER, my main message in my post was that we need to get organised and have a road-map before we take Apotheosis on.

And if you all are blood thirsty and want vengeance then planning it on an open forum where everyone can see is just about as stupid as you can get.

It's not, at all.  SysOp can't do anything even if he does read what's on here.  In a way it's good if he knows we're standing strong on this issue.  He can't ban us on old forum  if he doesn't know who we are.   

My point is, the site hasn't even got sub-forums yet.  We still don't have our own identity separate from old forum .  We need to get organised, get focused, get patients on board, get exposure, and we need to make sure people that come here know that we are the only ones that can be trusted; old forum  cannot.

[XYZ]

And it's not vengeance we're calling for.  What's vengeful about wanting to remove a tyrant from power?  He's harming people and he's going to harm more people unless we become the better forum and we make people realise that old forum  is not a trustworthy source of ll information.

[An_Apple_A_Day]

And it's not vengeance we're calling for.  What's vengeful about wanting to remove a tyrant from power?  He's harming people and he's going to harm more people unless we become the better forum and we make people realise that old forum  is not a trustworthy source of ll information.

Sweden will attest to SysOp dissuading people from going to dangerous doctors such as a doctor in Armenia.

I myself even asked who he recommends and he suggested "the best doctor you can afford" and told me to "do my own research as much as possible".

Not once did he suggest a single individual doctor.  So either every doctor on earth works with him or he is not as biased as we think.  I understand that he almost certainly has financial incentive with some doctors, and yes I'd sooner it be disclosed up front or better yet, not happen at all.  But really there is nothing else out there.

This guy is not forcing anyone to do this surgery or forcing them to go to any doctors.

The forum is what it is, a forum with a hell of a lot of posts about LL.

Taking the guy down for whatever reason will almost certainly result in that site being lost and all the posts with it (both the edit and the original ones).  That's 8 years of human accounts and thoughts lost.

Thinking outside the box we could always offer to buy the site off him?  Crowd source the funds buy it, clean the edited posts up and then keep the site pure.  We'd have to dig in our pockets but it would be far easier and more time efficient than waiting years for this site to grow.

[Carter]

I myself even asked who he recommends and he suggested "the best doctor you can afford" and told me to "do my own research as much as possible". Not once did he suggest a single individual doctor.   This guy is not forcing anyone to do this surgery or forcing them to go to any doctors.

Just to point out that Apotheosis is a sneaky guy, you don't expect him to go around recommending doctor everytime.  He picks his spots.  He has a list of recommended doctors featured right at the top for everyone, that's quite enough.   

I mean if he was recommending Dr Betz to everyone everytime, people would have called him out right away.   

Btw, it's written somewhere around here that he PERSONALLY recommended Harken and LL ForumorLife via PM to go to Dr T Sringari.  If you are so sure about Apotheosis, go make a post asking about what happened to The Phantom and see what happens.

[alps]

And it's not vengeance we're calling for.  What's vengeful about wanting to remove a tyrant from power?  He's harming people and he's going to harm more people unless we become the better forum and we make people realise that old forum  is not a trustworthy source of ll information.

Thinking outside the box we could always offer to buy the site off him?  Crowd source the funds buy it, clean the edited posts up and then keep the site pure.  We'd have to dig in our pockets but it would be far easier and more time efficient than waiting years for this site to grow.

What makes you think he'll sell it to us? He is supposedly making money out of it !

[An_Apple_A_Day]

And it's not vengeance we're calling for.  What's vengeful about wanting to remove a tyrant from power?  He's harming people and he's going to harm more people unless we become the better forum and we make people realise that old forum  is not a trustworthy source of ll information.

Thinking outside the box we could always offer to buy the site off him?  Crowd source the funds buy it, clean the edited posts up and then keep the site pure.  We'd have to dig in our pockets but it would be far easier and more time efficient than waiting years for this site to grow.

What makes you think he'll sell it to us? He is supposedly making money out of it !

He probably won't.  But it's an idea.  If enough people here are serious and we split the cost though he might for a price, we then have the best of both worlds.  8+ years archive of LL info plus an impartial forum.

[TomD]

I am convinced sysop is on here under an alias. I know if I was in his shoes I would join here. It fits his MO to try to even control the forum of people he banned . Again, I cannot even imagine the level of colossal prick you have to be to go down that kind of road.

So how about we stop talking about the guy. Certainly our members can stop DEFENDING the guy (cough . cough)

On here its irrelevant . Lets take the best of old forum  , incorporate it and move on. Lets not hear about sysop anymore. Certainly nobody should be defending him in any way. Lets let the patient diaries do the talking from now on. 

[rexos]

On here its irrelevant . Lets take the best of old forum  , incorporate it and move on. Lets not hear about sysop anymore. Certainly nobody should be defending him in any way. Lets let the patient diaries do the talking from now on. 

agreed. wether or not old forum  is corrupt or not is not our problem anymore. We should just post as much relevant information as possible. There should be more than one place and more than enough room on the internet for more discussion about LL.

[torcularis]

For sure, get the good stuff from old forum  and get it over here. Adapt it. Make it better. Get us up on google searches.

[ChrisIsaak]

Guys, it's been a few days since this website has been opened, and I still don't see a wide variety of discussion topics, or any updated information regarding the doctors. Let's begin with the doctors first; and once we have a few diaries going on, I think we can have a brighter outlook on the future of this site.

I woud like to remind you that this is not the first alternative website that was opened to old forum . None of them survived. We need better organization. Perhaps we need more moderators.

[Muse]

As a community, we need to sort a few things out.  Yes I know we're all angry, confused, and bitter about what Syoptheosis has been doing over the last 2 years, but we need to now start thinking about how we can structure and utilise that passion for the greater good.

Yes,  it's time to move on from old forum .   Focus on building LL forum over the long term is the direction to make this place the real community for every patient interested in limb lengthening. There's alot of work to be done, there are no magical switch. 

What we have is a open community of liked minded people who genuinely look out for each other here, that's what make us different.

We need the website, at a superficial level, to function in a way that allows people to share and organise views regarding limb lengthening, proportions, and dealing with height issues.

What old forum sections does everyone want to post in?  Suggest them

We model ourselves after old forum , yet make sure that those who govern the site are IMPARTIAL and not financially driven.  We make the site 100% transparent, and we DO NOT have ONE PERSON IN CONTROL.

I agree with this.  There will be no officially recommended list of doctors for starter. There will be a informational directory of all doctors active worldwide with the disclaimer that patients must research their doctors properly.   

I have already discussed with other people to help run this site to ensure that drastic decisions are not made by one person.  More details to come.

We structure the site differently, have a different philosophy etc..We need multiple people who have a shared, common goal which the community agrees on

One of the main philosophy difference is that everyone should feel they are on equal footing as much as possible.  There will be no talking down to people from ex patients or special access sections.  Being a ex patient shouldn't be a magical pass to act or be treated any different from others.   It serve no practical purpose except to stroke their fragile ego.

1. Get this site in order.  Set up sub-forums, avatars, signatures, etc.  We need to be professional before anyone takes us seriously.   
2. Make sure our leadership model is clear, focused, and transparent.  Make sure everyone feels like the community is going forward in the right direction
3. Go Guerrilla.  Make no mistake, I may be preaching peace here, but even I know peace cannot exist sometimes without war.  This is a war.  We are fighting against a serious tyranny which has ruined people's lives and deceived a whole community for financial gains. That is evil.  And we must remove it.

Agreed.

[Muse]

Guys, it's been a few days since this website has been opened, and I still don't see a wide variety of discussion topics, or any updated information regarding the doctors. Let's begin with the doctors first; and once we have a few diaries going on, I think we can have a brighter outlook on the future of this site.

I woud like to remind you that this is not the first alternative website that was opened to old forum . None of them survived. We need better organization. Perhaps we need more moderators.

That's accurate observations.  This is a community driven forum and the more active members we have, the wider the variety of discussions we will have here.

In terms of updated information about doctors, we are gathering questions and then selecting the best ones to ask the doctors.  A topic has just been created for that and hopefully this will kickstart that process.

As far as diaries goes, it's really up to patients to write and update them.  There will be no intentionally fake/imaginary diaries just to generate interest for this forum.

[speaknuh]

A couple thoughts:

I found this website through reddit.  Cheers to the poster on r/short.

I'm taken by the quality of the posts on this forum.  It looks like we're all here to generate meaningful discussion on the subject of leg lengthening, and so far we don't have weird posts by desperate people begging to get LL done for free or whatever. 

I'm not sure what can be done to maintain the quality of posts but I strongly advocate keeping this site as open and unrestricted as possible- while also ensuring trolls/mentally unstable/scammers are identified and swiftly ousted.  This isn't easy to do, and it might require work of several trusted admin.

While I do believe it is necessary that we expose old forum  for what it really is at every opportunity we get, I think it's a much better investment of our time where instead of taking retributive action against the site we advocate for current and prospective LLers to avoid using the old forum  website and develop this forum as a trusted resource for the future discourse of LL. 

LL Forum could very well become a safe resource for the discussion of LL but this is the part that takes work.  Logistically we should work to improve this website so that it becomes antithetical to a platform which allowed its draconian admin to engage in unethical scamming.  I say we dedicate our precious time in fostering this community and design an open, transparent and ultimately meaningful forum for the present discourse of LL. 

Another thing: there's no point in attacking the old forum  site if it hurts the credibility of our own.

And finally: I'm also glad we have a better website name to go under, 'makemetaller' (http/www edit) is like the cruddiest site name ever.