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[Penguinn]

spending 10's of thousands, breaking your legs and being crippled for potentially years is fine but jumping on a plane is too far. got it.

1. Living in another country permanently to get laid is too far.
2. You're assuming people do LL just for girls, which is absurd.

[Thatdude950]

1. Living in another country permanently to get laid is too far.
2. You're assuming people do LL just for girls, which is absurd.

It's absurd to think that 2 inches, & all that goes with getting it is going to give you more benefits than a culture change - whether it be sexually or professionally.

[Penguinn]

It's absurd to think that 2 inches, & all that goes with getting it is going to give you more benefits than a culture change - whether it be sexually or professionally.

Assuming that's true, I don't get why someone would move to another country when they're used to living in their country in their social circles and customs.. uprooting everything you've lived to get laid more sounds terrible.  Unless you have no friends/family in that country, then I guess you can move.

[Thatdude950]

Assuming that's true, I don't get why someone would move to another country when they're used to living in their country in their social circles and customs.. uprooting everything you've lived to get laid more sounds terrible.  Unless you have no friends/family in that country, then I guess you can move.

C'mon man get real. Half the people here (probably more like 80%, actually) don't plan on telling the majority of the people in their life (if anyone at all) about LL. That means you'll be isolated from them for at least a couple of months anyway, potentially longer. And then you have to lie to them all after that. So you're uprooting yourself either way.

If you're willing to LL, you have to be willing to spend 6 months abroad first. The risk/reward from doing that is SO much better than LL they're not even in the same ballpark.

[Penguinn]

C'mon man get real. Half the people here (probably more like 80%, actually) don't plan on telling the majority of the people in their life (if anyone at all) about LL. That means you'll be isolated from them for at least a couple of months anyway, potentially longer. And then you have to lie to them all after that. So you're uprooting yourself either way.

If you're willing to LL, you have to be willing to spend 6 months abroad first. The risk/reward from doing that is SO much better than LL they're not even in the same ballpark.

I guess I'm different then. Cause my close family & friends know about it and I have more reasons than simply getting laid. But I really think it's dumb for an American to move to Asia because "I feel taller there". The first world privileges you lose will kill you from the inside. If you want to suggest an alternative to LL, just working on confidence or "game" would work.

[theuprising]

There's no objective cut off, it's all relative. There's plenty of places in the world where 5'7 isn't short, and plenty of places where it is. How many of you are white? Why aren't you guys cashing in on your western privilege card before chopping up your legs? 5'7 and white works fine in the middle east and asia. if you're fit and have money, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Isn't this totally unfair to the guys in asia and middle east? I can imagine there would be a fair amount of resentment from these white guys coming there just to bang the girls in those places. It seems like a recipe for trouble.

[6cm]

There's no objective cut off, it's all relative. There's plenty of places in the world where 5'7 isn't short, and plenty of places where it is. How many of you are white? Why aren't you guys cashing in on your western privilege card before chopping up your legs? 5'7 and white works fine in the middle east and asia. if you're fit and have money, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

how am i going to use " western privilege" if even the girls have it?

[Thatdude950]

Isn't this totally unfair to the guys in asia and middle east? I can imagine there would be a fair amount of resentment from these white guys coming there just to bang the girls in those places. It seems like a recipe for trouble.

It's playing the hand you're dealt. Obviously you wouldn't go over there & rub it in their faces. And you wouldn't just be there for girls - there's a lot to learn and experience outside of women by travelling outside your comfort zone.

how am i going to use " western privilege" if even the girls have it?

What?

I guess I'm different then. Cause my close family & friends know about it and I have more reasons than simply getting laid. But I really think it's dumb for an American to move to Asia because "I feel taller there". The first world privileges you lose will kill you from the inside. If you want to suggest an alternative to LL, just working on confidence or "game" would work.

Have you traveled? Your first world privilege isn't lost, it's accentuated .. especially if you're white. This isn't fair, and I feel for the ethnic guys, but it is what it is. I don't know how you can call travel 'dumb' and leg lengthening reasonable. Calculate the potential gains/losses. People won't treat you differently because of 2 inches! But they do treat you differently because of wealth, class, nationality, race, character and ... yes, appearance - but 2 inches isn't going to markedly affect this! And depending on where you are in the world, the way you gain/lose from these traits will be significantly different.

[microman]

lol it makes way more sense to get LL than live in another country just because people are shorter.

and you act like it would be a holiday, but you would have to permanenly live there forever as as soon as you return to your own country you will be short again.

also stop saying 2 inches, a more typical gain is 6cm, so lets assume everyone at least gets 6cm/2.4inches.

[Thatdude950]

lol it makes way more sense to get LL than live in another country just because people are shorter.

and you act like it would be a holiday, but you would have to permanenly live there forever as as soon as you return to your own country you will be short again.

also stop saying 2 inches, a more typical gain is 6cm, so lets assume everyone at least gets 6cm/2.4inches.

Compared to LL it's not a holiday, it's heaven. And it's not just because others are relatively shorter. It's because the traits you have are more valuable there across the board. Your wealth's more valuable, your social capital is more valuable, your nationality is more valuable, and yep your height is more valuable too.

And sure, replace 2 inches with 2.4 inches. Doesn't change anything.

[microman]

how is permanenly living in an asian territory where people don't speak english as their primary language like 'heaven'.

while there is a slight social advantage to being caucasion in an asian territory i'd rather just be myself living amongst other caucasians living a normal life withouth height discrimination.

the main issue is height, and if you move to an asian territory you will be about 6cm taller, it is the same as LL in terms of benefits so by your point doing both things is 'useless', but now instead you have to learn a whole new language, LL only takes about 3 months anyway then your back home, you just live semi disabled but in your country that speaks english for a few months then your back to normal.

[Thatdude950]

It doesn't have to be Asia, & there are plenty of places where English is widely spoken, & business is conducted in English. Dubai & Singapore are good examples. And it doesn't have to be permanent. You have a better chance of losing your height neurosis abroad by changing your perspective, than by adding 2.4 inches.

The damage that has to be done re: your wealth, time and health for 2.4 inches from LL is not reasonable. Worse still is that the doors you believe having those extra 2.4 inches will open don't exist.

[microman]

well my point still stands, if you think 6cm is not worth anything, then why move to a shorter country in the first place, is it to test out what it's like to be 6cm taller? if so then that's a actually a good idea.

and no if you want to maintain your relative height you would have to stay there, if you get shorter again you will feel the same as you did before.

[Penguinn]

So you would leave your family, friends, traditions/culture and all your first world privileges and move to Asia?

Have you traveled? Your first world privilege isn't lost, it's accentuated .. especially if you're white. This isn't fair, and I feel for the ethnic guys, but it is what it is. I don't know how you can call travel 'dumb' and leg lengthening reasonable. Calculate the potential gains/losses. People won't treat you differently because of 2 inches! But they do treat you differently because of wealth, class, nationality, race, character and ... yes, appearance - but 2 inches isn't going to markedly affect this! And depending on where you are in the world, the way you gain/lose from these traits will be significantly different.

Think you got the wrong idea here. I meant your safety, good streets, hygiene, accessibility to things and so forth- a lot of first world privileges(I can't be assed to name all) would be left behind. Just to be 2 inches taller, which is retarded.

[Thatdude950]

So you would leave your family, friends, traditions/culture and all your first world privileges and move to Asia?

If I was preparing to drop at minimum tens of thousands of dollars, but probably closer to 6 figures -  and write off 1 + years of my life - I would absolutely try a move before that. I'm not sure if you young guys can comprehend how financially disastrous doing this is, let alone all the rest of the issues with it.

Think you got the wrong idea here. I meant your safety, good streets, hygiene, accessibility to things and so forth- a lot of first world privileges(I can't be assed to name all) would be left behind. Just to be 2 inches taller, which is retarded.

You think there's a lack of safety, hygiene and infrastructure in Singapore? Come on. Dubai, Turkey ... (even with the recent bombing) ... great infrastructure. & even one rung down ... Malaysia, Thailand ... all amazing places to live on western money.

[Penguinn]

Dubai and Singapore are indeed awesome and first-worldesque. But what's the average height there?

[Thatdude950]

Dubai and Singapore are indeed awesome and first-worldesque. But what's the average height there?

I have no idea. But they were definitely shorter than the average in Australia.

well my point still stands, if you think 6cm is not worth anything, then why move to a shorter country in the first place, is it to test out what it's like to be 6cm taller? if so then that's a actually a good idea.

I already answered that. Obviously you don't "gain" any amount of height by travelling - but your value in the dating/professional game can go up because your attributes are, relatively speaking, more desirable. Height neurosis makes you zero in on height as the be all and end all. But as I keep saying, 2 inches doesn't make much of a difference.

Think of it another way, if you really must focus solely on height. If you're 5'8, and the average in your country is 5'10 ... you "gain" just as much by moving somewhere with an average height of 5'8, as you would do by doing 2 inches of LL and staying at home - because in both cases you become right on the average. Except one doesn't cost tens of thousands, ruin your athletic ability and leave you crippled for in a good case a year, in a bad case for life. And in one example you actually gain money, as your $$$ go further abroad. You speak English, which could be a big advantage professionally. And you're exotic, which further adds to your dating value. I could go on ...

Edit: I missed your last sentence. Yes! Exactly. Going abroad would (potentially, if you're in the 5'6 and above range) give you a taste of what it's like to be of average height or even above average. The average height in Malaysia must be really short by western standards, I'm a giant there at 5'11. Surely this is a wise move before going all in and doing LL!?

By the way, the South African doctor that posts here disagrees with your claim of 6cm. So I'm gonna go back to saying 2 inches.

I think the debate around CLL goes wider. I suppose it has to do with cosmetic surgery in general. The reality is surgery is invasive and never perfectly safe. Up till recently we have not really had devices that were reliable, reproducible and predictable for femoral lengthening. Now with Precice we have that. In addition, the desired length is important. Anything beyond 4-5cm per segment becomes really problematic in terms of complication rates. Realistically the cost is almost prohibitive to go through a 4 segment lengthening, which means most patients end up with 5 cm either femoral or tibial. With this in mind, we have to ask whether the patient will really be happy with gaining 5 cm.
Having said all this, I realise very well that there are individuals who benefit greatly (physically and psychologically) from CLL, and it is this select group that I believe are the ideal patients.

As you can see this leaves us with a small group of patients who can a) afford it and b) be happy with it c) are healthy enough and d) are appropriate candidates (2 standard deviations shorter than the population average).
Once we've met all these criteria, there are few patients left.
From a doctor's perspective there are really 3 issues: patient safety, medicolegal risk and lastly a potential increased arthritis risk after CLL.

[theuprising]

Hey Thatdude950 I have a hypothetical for you.

It appears that your primary objections to LL is in regards to safety, money and time.

If LL could be done with a degree of 100% safety with full recovery in a couple of weeks and at a reasonable cost would you be in favour of it then?

[Penguinn]

@ThatDude: Yeah, moving makes you relatively taller, but I wouldn't move from the comfort of a first world country to someplace else for that. Someone who does that will probably decide to live with being short and move back home within a week.

EDIT: Unless Singapore/Dubai etc. have a shorter height.. which is doubtful. Something as good as a FWC should have similar height ratios.

[microman]

don't go back to saying 5cm, look at all the diaries on this site and the other, how many of them only do 5cm, like 1% or something, and usually that is because they are relatively tall for this type or surgery, as in they get to 5 9 at 5cm gain.

[Thatdude950]

Hey Thatdude950 I have a hypothetical for you.

It appears that your primary objections to LL is in regards to safety, money and time.

If LL could be done with a degree of 100% safety with full recovery in a couple of weeks and at a reasonable cost would you be in favour of it then?

It would depend - but if there was, say a pill you could take that made you 3 inches taller I would be in favor of it for sure. In "curing" their height neuroses [*inverted commas because lots of patients seem to regret it, or plan to do further surgery] LLers take a sledge hammer to their other attributes which are also very valuable (wealth, strength, time). If there were less costs involved I would have a different opinion. But the costs are MASSIVE.

[theuprising]

It would depend - but if there was, say a pill you could take that made you 3 inches taller I would be in favor of it for sure. In "curing" their height neuroses [*inverted commas because lots of patients seem to regret it, or plan to do further surgery] LLers take a sledge hammer to their other attributes which are also very valuable (wealth, strength, time). If there were less costs involved I would have a different opinion. But the costs are MASSIVE.

That sounds reasonable, the follow up to that question is. If shorter guys are becoming average height and above what are your thoughts on naturally taller guys losing the height advantage they have in career, dating etc?

[Medium Drink Of Water]

In terms of money, strength, and time, I think LL is a good deal.

I can't think of a better way to spend $40k (25k for the surgery and accommodations, another 15k for plane tickets, scar removal, and misc stuff) than to go from being short to average in society, from feeling inferior to feeling comfortable in my own skin.  I proved wrong anyone who says you can't buy happiness; LL bought quite a lot for me.  I'm very happy with the return on my investment.  What's the point of having money in the first place if not to buy the things you want in life?

I'm pretty much as strong as I was before the surgery.  I can leg press as much as I could before, sprint as fast as before, and walk as long as before.  My long-distance running endurance is the only physical attribute that really took much of a hit.

Although it was rough at the time due to being virtually immobile and in pain the whole time, I look back on my trip to Beijing fondly.  I met some cool people there who I had a lot in common with, both Chinese and foreign, and I enjoyed my 5-month vacation from my life and all its responsibilities and cares.  The cultural experience of living in a humble Chinese LL hospital is very different from anything you'd get as a tourist.  It wasn't wasted time.

[Soopz]

Great post MDOFW

It pains me to think everyone who got LL now regrets it, that surly can't be true??

I'm still very much on the fence, my height is making me feel so depressed and I see LL as making me happy.

But the thought lingers...... What if I regret it? What if I can never play foot ball again? What if I can never ski again?? What if I develop a whole new depression out of the lack of recovery and twisted feeling that I crippled myself, I did it!!


Anyway, we need hear more success stories on here, I'm sick of hearing horror story's!!

[Alu]

Considering you're just looking to become 2-3 cm taller... I don't think that part of the argument agaisnt LL would even remotely applies to you. If anything his argument against doing it for just 2 inches, as you are doing less then that, is more of a reason against you.

Also as far as regret goes, sure if the process ultimately leaves you crippled then yes I could see that.

[6cm]

It would depend - but if there was, say a pill you could take that made you 3 inches taller I would be in favor of it for sure. In "curing" their height neuroses [*inverted commas because lots of patients seem to regret it, or plan to do further surgery] LLers take a sledge hammer to their other attributes which are also very valuable (wealth, strength, time). If there were less costs involved I would have a different opinion. But the costs are MASSIVE.

what if someone is filthy rich? what if someone could afford to take 100'000 and burn them? should he stay short?

[G-Man]

2 inches is a huge gain, no matter how tall you are.  Thatdude is probably a mutual funds salesman

[Thatdude950]

what if someone is filthy rich? what if someone could afford to take 100'000 and burn them? should he stay short?

Then the risk/reward calculations change. There's a big difference between an established man dropping money he can easily afford, to a young guy doing it.

The first $100,00 or so is the hardest to make. You've got to grind for it. In my case it took about 8 years of work. Sure, in that time I traveled the world and dropped some money on things I didn't need, but overall I was pretty diligent with saving - and it still took me 8 years. Once you've got some capital, it gets so much easier after that. To me, LL is putting the average young guy, when you include recovery time almost 10 years behind financially. That's huge. When I was in my teens I would have said money doesn't matter - but money is power ... it's freedom. It matters.

It's a different story for someone who already has millions. For me, it's then still not worth it. I'm a "pro" athlete according to this website [not really, but the standards of what's a decent athletic recovery here are very, very low). So in my mind it wouldn't be worth it for an active person that's rich anyway - but it's nowhere near as bad as a young guy doing it.

In terms of money, strength, and time, I think LL is a good deal.

I can't think of a better way to spend $40k (25k for the surgery and accommodations, another 15k for plane tickets, scar removal, and misc stuff) than to go from being short to average in society, from feeling inferior to feeling comfortable in my own skin.  I proved wrong anyone who says you can't buy happiness; LL bought quite a lot for me.  I'm very happy with the return on my investment.  What's the point of having money in the first place if not to buy the things you want in life?

I'm pretty much as strong as I was before the surgery.  I can leg press as much as I could before, sprint as fast as before, and walk as long as before.  My long-distance running endurance is the only physical attribute that really took much of a hit.

Although it was rough at the time due to being virtually immobile and in pain the whole time, I look back on my trip to Beijing fondly.  I met some cool people there who I had a lot in common with, both Chinese and foreign, and I enjoyed my 5-month vacation from my life and all its responsibilities and cares.  The cultural experience of living in a humble Chinese LL hospital is very different from anything you'd get as a tourist.  It wasn't wasted time.

I'm glad you're happy with it. You preempted my reply, which would have been that you could have had a better experience by going to China as an English teacher for 6 months. I don't doubt that you took something meaningful away from it ... But I do think the same thing could have been achieved without all the negatives of LL.

If 40k was worth it for you, again great. Were you in good shape financially before LL? And re: recovery ... the only recovery I've seen that seems decent is ShyShy. No offence, but if you were really, really weak and slow before doing LL, I suppose it's possible to be just as weak and slow when you finish it. How much are you squatting? How fast can you run 100m?

That sounds reasonable, the follow up to that question is. If shorter guys are becoming average height and above what are your thoughts on naturally taller guys losing the height advantage they have in career, dating etc?

No different to how I feel about guys around me making more money, being buffer, being more charismatic, better looking, having bigger dcks, having better connections/education/more prestigious jobs. It's just reality.

If there was a pill to make you taller, I'd list it with the above traits. But I think LL is easily a net loss to most people - a net loss for people that are already vulnerable and can't afford it. Which makes me feel kind of sad.

[Thatdude950]

2 inches is a huge gain, no matter how tall you are.  Thatdude is probably a mutual funds salesman

Haha this made me laugh

[blahblah]

Thatdude, I agree with a lot of the things you are saying, but I think you are looking too deeply in quantitative instead of the qualitative aspects of LL. Yes, 2 inches isn't a crazy difference, but it brings 100 inches of confidence, happiness, and joy for a lot here. Is it worth it? again that's to the individual. We each make up our own world in our head. As far as money- it comes it goes. That's just the fact of life... millionaires become broke and broke guys become millionaires, so if you are basing your happiness on money alone, you are playing an even riskier game than LL.

[Thatdude950]

Yes, 2 inches isn't a crazy difference, but it brings 100 inches of confidence, happiness, and joy for a lot here.

I think that's big leap of faith - if you look at most of the diaries, I think you'll find that this isn't what happens. I have a lot of respect for those that share their journey, but I find it amazing how selectively they're read by others. I just finished one at old forum  - the guy wrote his detailed final thoughts, clearly regretted it ... And then the next few posts are from people saying his diary inspired them to go ahead with LL and use his doctor. I mean wtf?

Is it worth it? again that's to the individual. We each make up our own world in our head. As far as money- it comes it goes. That's just the fact of life... millionaires become broke and broke guys become millionaires, so if you are basing your happiness on money alone, you are playing an even riskier game than LL.

Yep, life/happines is a balancing act for sure. Doing LL is an extremely imbalanced approach. Massive risks and costs for what will probably one be small rewards - and that's being generous. There's a good chance all the costs will make you more miserable.