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[NewHeights]

I don't think some of you guys are accurately calculating the risk/reward trade-off of amount lengthened, and also, some of you might be providing members of the forum with misleading info....

First off, there should not be this general guideline of safe amount lengthened (unless you are talking very small amount like 4-5 CM), because the doctor should determine the amount for each individual patient. This is simply too serious of a surgery to say to someone you don't know, "you should do 6 or 7 CM max". There are certain factors that should come into play when considering safety, such as: starting height, bone density, and current proportions (for biomechanics). These should be assessed by a physician.

Now with that being said, I think for most people, a surgeon would say that 5 CM is the cutoff for being in the very safe range, with risk of long-tern complications increasing significantly after that.

Once you find YOUR very safe range, as told by a physician, I don't think there is a compelling argument for anyone to go past it...

Yes, additional height is good, yes I understand many of us want to be significantly taller, but if you take.a step back and ponder the risks of life long pain, reduced athletic function, messed up biomechanics, muscle and nerve damage, and even being crippled, is it worth it to go above the very safe range? It's obviously hard to quantify the risk of experiencing serious complications, but I even think a 15% chance is unacceptable.

And finally, except for some rare cases, the idea of anyone considering over 7 CM is absolutely absurd, because there is significant risk for one or more of the above complaints after that point.

Like they always say, "To each his own", but I felt like I had to make this post. Hopefully I was able to make some people seriously ponder the risk side of the equation, which IMO is more important than the reward side.

I would like to generate some other thoughts, but please focus on risk. Let's try to be rational people and put everything into perspective.

[crimsontide]

i havent heard of even 1 person being crippled from this surgery....  same goes for life long pain

muscle and nerve damage... im not sure i know of anyone with that either....


biomechanics will be impacted regardless of the length.... just a fact....

[Uppland]

Good post, if my surgeon tells me to stay below 5CM, I definitely will.

However most people will only do this once and they might accept a higher risk to gain a few CM extra.

[PANDA:BEAR..]

I don't think some of you guys are accurately calculating the risk/reward trade-off of amount lengthened, and also, some of you might be providing members of the forum with misleading info....

First off, there should not be this general guideline of safe amount lengthened (unless you are talking very small amount like 4-5 CM), because the doctor should determine the amount for each individual patient. This is simply too serious of a surgery to say to someone you don't know, "you should do 6 or 7 CM max". There are certain factors that should come into play when considering safety, such as: starting height, bone density, and current proportions (for biomechanics). These should be assessed by a physician.

Now with that being said, I think for most people, a surgeon would say that 5 CM is the cutoff for being in the very safe range, with risk of long-tern complications increasing significantly after that.

Once you find YOUR very safe range, as told by a physician, I don't think there is a compelling argument for anyone to go past it...

Yes, additional height is good, yes I understand many of us want to be significantly taller, but if you take.a step back and ponder the risks of life long pain, reduced athletic function, messed up biomechanics, muscle and nerve damage, and even being crippled, is it worth it to go above the very safe range? It's obviously hard to quantify the risk of experiencing serious complications, but I even think a 15% chance is unacceptable.

And finally, except for some rare cases, the idea of anyone considering over 7 CM is absolutely absurd, because there is significant risk for one or more of the above complaints after that point.

Like they always say, "To each his own", but I felt like I had to make this post. Hopefully I was able to make some people seriously ponder the risk side of the equation, which IMO is more important than the reward side.

I would like to generate some other thoughts, but please focus on risk. Let's try to be rational people and put everything into perspective.

I'm sorry to say ...I sort of disagree with your above statement...  I think it all depends on the individual.. If someone has great flexibility.. And good health and a strong mentality... They can lengthen more than 7 cm ...  And still have a good recovery ... Remember everyone is built differently ... Panda .. :-)

[crimsontide]

you can lengthen more than 7 cm.... but not much more


and the amount of time to recover will take 1.5 to 2 years

[Medium Drink Of Water]

I think less is worse.  You don't get as much height that way.

[NewHeights]

I'm sorry to say ...I sort of disagree with your above statement...  I think it all depends on the individual.. If someone has great flexibility.. And good health and a strong mentality... They can lengthen more than 7 cm ...  And still have a good recovery ... Remember everyone is built differently ... Panda .. :-)

It's certainly alright to disagree friend : ]    I mentioned that most people are taking significant risk at 7CM, but some people can do that amount with less risk.

Paley mentioned in a Q&A post that as a general guideline, less than 5CM is low risk, 5-8 CM is moderate risk, and 8 CM+  is high risk.7 CM seems to be too close to the high risk range if you ask me.

As you said though, every body's different. Only the good doctor can tell what is safe for each person.

[NewHeights]

I think less is worse.  You don't get as much height that way.

That is true about the height MDoW, but you are only focusing on the reward side of the equation.

If I remember correctly, you had short and stocky legs to begin with (relative to your starting proportions), so your bone structure and build were probably better able to handle the significant amount lengthened, more than most other people can.

This is why a doctor's evaluation is key

[crimsontide]

kinda agree with the less is worse

i think the complications and recovery are gonna be long no matter what... so might as well make it worth it...

im excluding crazy lengthening amounts of course

[crimsontide]

newheights...

it does not make sense to say because he had short legs to begin with.. that his recovery was better because of it

the vast majority of us have short legs... thats why we wanna be taller....

[NewHeights]

newheights...

it does not make sense to say because he had short legs to begin with.. that his recovery was better because of it

the vast majority of us have short legs... thats why we wanna be taller....

He had short legs relative to his starting height. He had a inseam to height ratio of 42% which is crazy low, so he had a very long torso and short (probably stocky) legs. lengthening 3 inches probably didn't mess up his biomechanics that much because of his starting proportions, so he was an ideal candidate to go above the normal "safe" range. Maybe 3+ inches was pushing it though, but I'm not entirely sure. I'm not a doc.

Every body's different.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

That is true about the height MDoW, but you are only focusing on the reward side of the equation.

If I remember correctly, you had short and stocky legs to begin with (relative to your starting proportions), so your bone structure and build were probably better able to handle the significant amount lengthened, more than most other people can.

This is why a doctor's evaluation is key

You must be thinking of someone else.  I didn't have short/stocky legs.  Professor Xia was a little surprised by me since most of the short people he saw had disproportionately short tibiae and I didn't.  He almost recommended that I do femurs from just eyeballing it, but then he measured me and found that my tibiae were 8cm shorter than my femurs, and told me therefore I could lengthen tibiae a maximum of 8cm.

My pants inseam was 29 before LL and now it's 32.  Make of that what you will.

I agree with you about having yourself evaluated by a doctor to determine the maximum amount you can lengthen.  I decided against having a set goal when I first went to Beijing.  I would ask Xia for the maximum I could do and then do that.  If he'd said 10 I would've gone for 10.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

kinda agree with the less is worse

i think the complications and recovery are gonna be long no matter what... so might as well make it worth it...

im excluding crazy lengthening amounts of course

Kaper only did 6cm, wanting to be conservative, and he didn't recover any faster than me.  In fact, he had to wait longer to have his nails removed than I did.  A lot of it does depend on the person's natural potential to be stretched out, and also how hard they stretch/exercise.

[crimsontide]

yes mdow, i kinda feel the same way

its gonna be a long recovery regardless... might as well as make it worth it

just as a fyi for the potential patients

i just walked maybe 20 minutes in my apt... back and forth

im pretty sure my walking would be 10x better if not for my left leg alignment issues...

i have frontal plane ,sagittal plane, and   malalignment  of the union site.... though i think my last term is not correct in a medical sense...

[Smallguy]

This is more like a personal choice. Agree with Panda.

Some people are more fit for LL and so can lengthen more but other people are more adamant about their length. The risk/reward ratio is different for everyone... age, flexibility, time, finance, health, will-power, personality etc. Some people who are adamant enough would be willing to trade more risk for height gain.

The fact that LL forum has a low active member count means that the general population is not so much interested in this type of surgery. Not everyone value being taller or conscious about appearance as much as we do.

Yes, you can ask physician for their opinion on the length of increase but they usually take on the side of safety and low risk to protect themselves and their own reputation.. not to mention, they can get rid of you much faster... which might not be inline with the patient's ultimate goal. This is a cosmetic surgery afterward. Some people spend a lot of money and so are anal about having a desired outcome. But I do agree that certain length limit should be in effect.

I agree with Crimsontide and Panda.

MDOW... we have the same inseam!

[NewHeights]

This is more like a personal choice. Agree with Panda.

Some people are more fit for LL and so can lengthen more but other people are more adamant about their length. The risk/reward ratio is different for everyone... age, flexibility, time, finance, health, will-power, personality etc. Some people who are adamant enough would be willing to trade more risk for height gain.

The fact that LL forum has a low active member count means that the general population is not so much interested in this type of surgery. Not everyone value being taller or conscious about appearance as much as we do.

Yes, you can ask physician for their opinion on the length of increase but they usually take on the side of safety and low risk to protect themselves and their own reputation.. not to mention, they can get rid of you much faster... which might not be inline with the patient's ultimate goal. This is a cosmetic surgery afterward. Some people spend a lot of money and so are anal about having a desired outcome. But I do agree that certain length limit should be in effect.

I agree with Crimsontide and Panda.

MDOW... we have the same inseam!

I've spent a lot of time thinking about the comment you mentioned. While this forum has many great benefits in terms of access to shared experiences, good info, and smart people sharing valuable ideas, we still represent a minute fraction of the population of short and average height people. We tend to validate our ideas through the "groupthink" phenomenon, while the vast majority of short people DGAF, at least not to an obsessive level.

There are hundreds of millions of English-speaking short men, and only a few hundred are on this forum, so clearly we are the exception, not the rule.

I think we all share a "mental" defect, in that we overvalue and overthink height and stature.

In my situation, I overheard girls talking about how tall men are very attractive. This started a cascade of negative thinking, which has haunted me for about 2 years, and made me obsess about my height. 99.9%+ of other short and average height men who at some point or another heard the same thing I did, would not have reacted the same way I did.

The other day, I saw a 5' 5" average looking guy walking with his hot 5' 5" girlfriend. Both of them had smiles on their faces and seemed very happy together. That 5' 5" guy will be happier than many of us, regardless of his height, and in a way I simultaneously envied and admired that guy, because he didn't give a crap.

[Smallguy]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about the comment you mentioned. While this forum has many great benefits in terms of access to shared experiences, good info, and smart people sharing valuable ideas, we still represent a minute fraction of the population of short and average height people. We tend to validate our ideas through the "groupthink" phenomenon, while the vast majority of short people DGAF, at least not to an obsessive level.

There are hundreds of millions of English-speaking short men, and only a few hundred are on this forum, so clearly we are the exception, not the rule.

I think we all share a "mental" defect, in that we overvalue and overthink height and stature.

In my situation, I overheard girls talking about how tall men are very attractive. This started a cascade of negative thinking, which has haunted me for about 2 years, and made me obsess about my height. 99.9%+ of other short and average height men who at some point or another heard the same thing I did, would not have reacted the same way I did.

The other day, I saw a 5' 5" average looking guy walking with his hot 5' 5" girlfriend. Both of them had smiles on their faces and seemed very happy together. That 5' 5" guy will be happier than many of us, regardless of his height, and in a way I simultaneously envied and admired that guy, because he didn't give a crap.

Yeah, you remind of the Pavlov's effect and classical condition. People and animals associate certain thoughts and ideas with positive or negative stimuli they receive from the environment and from their upbringing. You've been hampered quite too often for not being taller than average and you probably associate your lack of success as the result... whereas some short guy who has experience of success and confident felt that he is endow to achieve success (include getting girls) and not have his less than average image hold him back.

Also from my experience, a lot of tall/attractive guys I met at the club and in other station of life can't get girls, not because of their looks, but their lack of know-how. These guys come off as very socially awkward or even dangerous. And their expectation is too high for what they are worth. You see RGKey gets plenty of girls and he has photo to prove it.

I think it is normal to feel inadequate and desire self-improvement. That is what got us to go out from the cave and start building civilization in the first place. I think it's a problem though when it becomes a depression and an obsession that prevents you from pursuing all other goals in life.

When it becomes a depression, it is a mental illness. You're not only a hazard to yourself but a potential hazard to other people and should seek help (e.g. the recent pilot who brought down the plane and the passenger with him). Depression can happen for a variety of reason, including the imbalance chemistry of your brain, your obsession to a negative thought, and being isolated for a long amount of time. I always tell people who has depression to seek doctor's advice, it's free in my country and is also coverage from working insurance. You will get accessed by the doctor and depending on your symptom, you can be advised on a nutrition plan or medicine or counselling. You'll be surprised by how different you feel just by popping a pill. Depression is all a state of mind.

Yes, LL is a cosmetic surgery afterall. In terms of popularity, it is ranked quite low. I think this is because the majority of people don't care as much about height and if they do, height is not a priority on their list. You can ask any short guy. Would they like to grow taller? Sure. But would they spend over 50k and spend 5-6 months of their lives idle? Probably no. Men are not as hardcore about appearance as do women. Women get rewarded for being beautiful whereas men for success and intelligent.

The major market for cosmetic surgery is for middle and upper class women, but they're more into implants and other facial changes. The major market for LL is I suspect

1. Under height male living in Western Countries who are height neurosis due to all the negative stimuli they receive from heightism starting from high-school to college. These guys are usually from middle income families who have one or two aesthetic other features and are used to depend on looks for success so they felt that their under-average height holds them back in life.

2. Gay/Metrosexual/Body-builder, people with dysmorphic idea of body aesthetic or who seeks to morph themselves through a variety of surgeries into the ideal image of themselves.

[Overdozer]

Might as well not lengthen anything at all. Can't get any safer than that!

[KiloKAHN]

More complications start showing up the longer you stretch your soft tissues. Joint stiffness, procurvatum, and bone misalignment are more likely to happen the higher you go. It's important to have your lengthening done by an Ilizarov specialist who can catch and treat these issues once they pop up before they get bad.

If you're getting external only, I think it's best to go to someone who uses a TSF or an equivalent six-axis correction fixator so you can much more accurately correct misalignment if it happens.

[Moose]

as long as i get 3 inches im happy. 3.4cm tibia plus 4.2 femur = 7.6 cm total thats 3 inches im grateful to have.

[YellowSpike]

The more it really sets in how NUTS this surgery is (especially having done it myself)...I'm starting to feel glad that I stopped around 7cm, even though I wanted to go on a bit more.