Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[heightangel]

An old post which makes me think twice about going to Paley... Do you think these problems are quite frequent? It seems that ALL females doing LL have problems, but men are usually OK. That's OK for me, but I'm still worried. If this happens to the best surgeon in the world, which I can't afford, how about other more economic options which I can afford, like the Russian doctors which I prefer? It's scary.

Re: Knee pain after LL
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2013, 03:48:26 PM »
Hi All,

I had heard about this forum, but never visited it until recently.  I felt compelled to speak out after undergoing LL (Precice internal nail) last year.  Like someone else already said here, all I read is this frenzy over gaining height without discussion of consequences or long-term effects.  After my experience, I can't imagine anyone ever choosing to do this voluntarily. 

I have significant knee pain and problems.  I underwent LL with Dr.  Paley last year.  I have abandoned him, because I don't care for the man - I read the part about him being on the "good" list and as I read through the answers to the questions, I thought, "LIE, LIE, LIE. " Dr.  Paley will give you the absolute best-case scenario.  He provides virtually no aftercare.  His cost estimates are extremely conservative - prepare to be inundated by what I call the Paley Racket in South Florida.  You will end up needing LOTS of things that aren't stated there - basically, you need to have access to virtually unlimited funds (I know, I shared a lot of my resources with the ones who were self-pay, because I felt so bad for them).  It actually depends on who you are, as he's very preferential about his patients.  I think I know more former patients who hate the man and are in bad predicaments, than those that had success.  That's not to say you can't have a success story with him - but I don't think you're getting the whole picture here.  All I read is sunshine and daisies, and that couldn't be farther from the truth.  Also, Dr.  Paley told me personally that he cannot say no to anyone and that's extremely concerning (quantity over quality).  He is but one man, but thinks he can operate on anyone that walks through the door.  There are finite limits to what one man can do, and he ignores them.  It's downright scary.  If you are hellbent on getting it done with Paley, consider NOT doing it during the American summer, which is when all his kid patients are trying to get their surgeries done.  It's a madhouse and mistakes happen.  Scary, scary mistakes.  Like someone getting the nail in the wrong leg.  Like your lengthening stopping, but it takes them 10 days to catch it, potentially creating the need for another surgery to re-break the bone.

I still have many months to go before my local doctor and I determine if I will need more surgeries.  I hope that I don't, but I've had to deal with a lot of anger over what I felt like was deception - they really didn't know what they were doing with the Precice nail, and my one surgery turned into three.  Could you afford an extra $50K, which is what my surgeries #2 and #3 cost?

Again, I am friends with some people who went through LL with NO problems.  Is it worth the risk to you to not know whether you'll be in that group? Think long and hard about it before you choose to do LL.  If anyone wants to send me a private message about specific questions, I'll be happy to answer.  My desire wasn't to come here and shi* all over the boards about what a disaster it is, but I at least wanted to put some caution out here where there doesn't seem to be much.  A last comment - males seem to have better success at LL than females, which is probably most of the forum users here.  If you're female and considering this, I'd probably try to talk you out of it.  The people I know who succeeded - males; the people I know with problems now - females.  I don't know why that is.

The fact is, I don't think they really know how LL affects you later in life.  I know many people with significant knee issues following LL.  I also know people who underwent lengthening via external fixators years and years ago, and are now experiencing the effects of that - it's not good.

==> That's sallystruthers' post. Page 2 of "Knee pain after LL".

[jaymorgan712]

Hope this link works. If it doesn't work type in "dr paley tried to murder me" on google and it will be the first result. There was somebody who claims dr. Paley tried to kill them! They are now crippled for life. Sites.google.com/../dr-paley-2-html

[heightangel]

Hope this link works. If it doesn't work type in "dr paley tried to murder me" on google and it will be the first result. There was somebody who claims dr. Paley tried to kill them! They are now crippled for life. Sites.google.com/../dr-paley-2-html

True. I was also aware of that site. It's terrfying!

[meursault]

Hope this link works. If it doesn't work type in "dr paley tried to murder me" on google and it will be the first result. There was somebody who claims dr. Paley tried to kill them! They are now crippled for life. Sites.google.com/../dr-paley-2-html

I read the site. The woman seems insane. Talking about Paley trying to get her addicted to oxycodone so she would kill herself (talk about a fantastic imagination), saying her lengthened leg shortened by 6 inches, saying she needs a sea coral graft from some doctor in france, etc. It's just ramblings from an insane person living in their world of delusions. Prescribing oxycodone after very invasive and serious surgery is incredibly common and accepted practice in the USA (less so in other countries), it's essentially the standard in pain medication.

Granted, I have become much more suspicious of Paley's ethics recently (especially after talking to my friend who is undergoing LL with him right now about his personality and how his office pressed him hard to schedule the surgery). Unfortunately, arthritis, nerve damage, and infections can happen in the wake of such a serious surgery. When you have a destroyed hip socket and some kind of limb length discrepancy like this woman had it's not guaranteed you're going to come out of it totally functional and normal (especially if you were crippled in the first place). That doesn't mean Paley wants to murder his patients. It's just a possible complication/roll of the dice. That's just in the cards for serious bone surgery like LL. You don't know what will happen, even with the best surgeon. Even the best jaw surgeons in the world have left people crippled and looking like monkeys. Again, that's the risk you took when you underwent the surgery. Sorry you had to be one of the unlucky ones, it's really too bad, but unfortunately we can't see into the future.

This is why you all should have been given growth hormone or IGF1 at the correct age, you'd be tall and wouldn't have to have your bones torn asunder with metal rods. Like someone said (was it Hadrian?), HGH and igf1 should be as mass produced and inexpensive as insulin (as well as being available over the counter and carrying no stigma) so most short teens could take it before they are done growing. Sadly this will never happen, because males trying to modify traits that should be inborn provokes a visceral disgust in the reptile part of people's (especially women as they want to reproduce with the most physically elite male) minds, because the primitive mentality is 'only the strong/those with superior genes should survive'. Same reason LL and androgenic steroids carry the stigma they do, and why androgenic steroids are illegal despite estrogenic/progestrogenic steroids (birth control and what have you) being perfectly legal and easily obtained by teen girls. On a primitive level it is a male trying to cheat their destiny, which is a big evolutionary no-no and must be stamped out.

[programdude]

Females often do tibia which has higher complication rates. There was a female who used these forums who had some issues, and one I met who had screws come out and a very lengthy recovery. It is less about Paley and more about the tibia.

I would encourage females to very strongly consider doing femurs instead. The amount of time and money I have seen spent on very modest gains on tibias in females is staggering.

[heightangel]

Females often do tibia which has higher complication rates. There was a female who used these forums who had some issues, and one I met who had screws come out and a very lengthy recovery. It is less about Paley and more about the tibia.

I would encourage females to very strongly consider doing femurs instead. The amount of time and money I have seen spent on very modest gains on tibias in females is staggering.

Apparently, they've problems even when doing femurs. LL is not for females.

[programdude]

I saw one female lengthen fine, but only bad news for tibia. Regardless yeah, usually females really shouldn't consider this.

[JConnor]

Don't women tend to have greater flexibility?  I thought they'd be able to tolerate the lengthening process better.  Interesting.

[programdude]

Mainly the bone issues. Scary stuff to be honest.

[meursault]

The Paley hate has reached critical mass on this forum. Fact of the matter is that he's probably one of the best bets (if not the best) for LL surgery in the entire world. This is despite what you may think personally of the man or his ethics. Not counting the number of crippled kids with fked up bones he helped walk. I'm not even blowing him here (I have my doubts about his medical ethics and such, and the conditions under which he left baltimore) but let's get real.

Paley has been doing limb lengthening for decades and decades, helped bring external fixation to the west in the 80s (studied under Gavril Ilizarov himself), has decades of experience with internal fixation with albizzia and ISKD, chaired conferences in orthopedic surgery, helped design and spec out the precise nail, has been published in a ton of medical journals, etc. I even asked my mother's friend (an orthopedic surgeon who performs non cosmetic external fixation) about LL surgery and he said Dror Paley was widely respected and even famous in the field of orthopedic surgery. Experience and surgical skill means a lot when you're getting your legs hacked apart, yes, but unfortunately even with the most skilled and experienced surgeon there will still be catastrophes every so often. If you're one of the unfortunate ones then that's a pity, but that's how the dice roll goes. With LL surgery you are forcing your bones and the soft tissue of your limbs apart with a metal machine- it's not pleasant, it's not normal for your body. You can't predict the healing process or outcomes of such invasive surgery after all. Even with perfect surgical technique. That doesn't mean Paley is an evil lizardman trying to kill his patients and who doesn't know anything compared to some 25 year old romanian guy who did his residency in a barn making external fixators out of legos and wood who will operate on you for 200 dollars and a ball of yarn.

The skill of the surgeon, the hardware, etc only matters so much. But there is a significant degree to which this is in god's/fate's hands sadly. That's simply what it takes. Everyone thinks they're ready to face whatever because they think it won't happen to them. Arnett, the famous jaw surgeon who has made immense strides in jaw surgery and is renowned for his aesthetic knowledge and surgical skill, has made people look like chimps and given them permanent nerve damage. If you aren't willing to accept the risks and are getting so indulgent over dramatic conspiracy theories on an internet forum you shouldn't be getting such a seriously invasive surgery. Sorry. Not even a 'fan' here (can you be a fan of a surgeon?), I'm just being realistic- there comes a point where you need to be able to trust someone's professional reputation more than a bunch of catty posters and blog posts on the internet. And remember, you are all the ones who wanted to get taller, and there's no such thing in life as a free lunch 

[KiloKAHN]

Every doctor has his own personality. Some like to show off more than others and like to advertise commercially while others like to keep out of that whole thing. Paley might have a business interest in this, but so long as he isn't disparaging short people in his advertisements then I have no problem with it. He's definitely one of the best there is in the field, not only by his years of experience, but also by how well known he is with other orthopedic surgeons. My local orthopedist told me that he would have loved to be a fellow of Dr Paley if he could, but it's very competitive to get a spot learning under him.