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[Uppland]

Lately there's been a lot of cautious warnings from people having had consultations and they seem to be mostly legit even if their join dates are all from around the same time.

Basically most doctors seem to think LL is just too dangerous to ever justify cosmetic use, this isn't really something new because we've long known this isn't recommended but these other surgeon paint a pretty horrific picture.

Now what goes against this is that people on the forum who have had the surgery done doesn't recognize this image, sure no one recovers quite to their pre-op level but they can run, stay active and use a gym without issues.

So is this a voice of reason here to finally crack or the bubble we've been living in or are these people over reacting?

[Medium Drink Of Water]

I don't think the warnings are telling us anything we didn't already know.  Most doctors are against doing it for cosmetic reasons because the risk/reward isn't worth it in their opinions.  That's why you have to search the internet for docs who'll do it instead of going to your local orthopedist.  It's definitely dangerous.  Not everyone in Beijing while I was there came out of it as well as I did.  Not everyone who does 20cm will be able to jog on a trampoline as well as Apotheosis can.  This is an extreme surgery for people who are extremely unhappy with their lives and don't care about the risks involved.  This is do-or-die for desperate people.  Maybe there was a bubble here that needed to be broken.

[Uppland]

Could you tell us a little bit about some of the more unfortunate cases in Beijing, and what they did wrong in your opinion?

[YellowSpike]

I think it's still kinda hard to say how "dangerous" LL is over the long-term (more than 20 years, will we have arthritis and other problems? Who know?), but it's definitely the most extreme cosmetic surgery out there, bar none. And why I say it's not really worth it for men who are hovering around average height. I did 7cm and I wonder if I'll ever fully recover. This surgery is really no joke.

The problem is, this forum (and old forums, such as as the misc) makes it seem that anything sub 6'2" is a midget. Unfortunately, money talks, and there will always be doctors who will do this for "short" men 5'9/5'10 and up, and these doctors will always downplay the risks ("nothing will happen with me and my team," etc). I'm actually going to be leaving the forum once I recover just because, at least for me, it only perpetuates my height neurosis. The fact that I would even begin to consider a second surgery (all that extra pain, time, money, and total loss of respect at that point from family and friends) is preposterous, and for me, a testament that my height neurosis has gotten out of hand.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

Could you tell us a little bit about some of the more unfortunate cases in Beijing, and what they did wrong in your opinion?

One guy developed one crooked foot, and now he starts to walk in circles unless he consciously straightens out his walk.
One guy had a heart problem after the operation and had to be hooked up to an oxygen tank.
Several people developed patella baja.
One girl still had really sore feet and difficulty walking when I emailed her about a year after the operation.  I don't know if or how well she recovered after that.
One girl ended up developing a limp and had to go back for a major corrective surgery and a change of internal nails.

I'm not sure if the doctors actually made a screw-up in any of these cases.  It's just peoples' bodies reacting differently to major surgery.

[KrP1]

we all know that this surgery is risky, we have to ponder the pros and cons. for people under 5´7 it really worth , there is no way a man can live a full life at those heights . There is no way to compare the advantages for those people to people of 5´8 and over

[YellowSpike]

we all know that this surgery is risky, we have to ponder the pros and cons. for people under 5´7 it really worth , there is no way a man can live a full life at those heights . There is no way to compare the advantages for those people to people of 5´8 and over

I was living a pretty good life at just under 5'6". Yeah, I had to deal with comments here and there and I'm sure many women passed me up based on my height alone, but I still did well with women and it never held me back in my career. What sucked for me is finding out about LL, and knowing it was within my means to actually increase my height. Although, at my previous height, few would argue that I sorta needed it then. I guess I'm a borderline case now, but the way I look at it, do I really wanna spend years recovering from major surgery(ies) and spending all that money?

I mean, Dr. Rozbruch I know used to have a limit where if you were over 5'6", he wouldn't do the surgery for you. I don't know if that still stands, but most of his cosmetic patients that I've spoken to were like 5'3/5'4 to begin with.

[Uppland]

One guy developed one crooked foot, and now he starts to walk in circles unless he consciously straightens out his walk.
One guy had a heart problem after the operation and had to be hooked up to an oxygen tank.
Several people developed patella baja.
One girl still had really sore feet and difficulty walking when I emailed her about a year after the operation.  I don't know if or how well she recovered after that.
One girl ended up developing a limp and had to go back for a major corrective surgery and a change of internal nails.

I'm not sure if the doctors actually made a screw-up in any of these cases.  It's just peoples' bodies reacting differently to major surgery.

That's scary, but were these complications the exception or the norm?

Yellowspike, why do you feel so bad about your reovery?

[YellowSpike]

That's scary, but were these complications the exception or the norm?

Yellowspike, why do you feel so bad about your reovery?

I don't feel bad about it per se, it's just very frustrating. ShyShy was already walking by this point, but we all heal differently. My left leg, in particular, is healing very slowly. It is what it is.  I'm now also working full days (from home), but since my job is fast paced and demanding, I have to be glued to my computer for those hours. So I have less time to fully devote to doing exercises and stuff, but I'm still working on them as much as possible. LL is not something to be taken lightly. I think I slightly underestimated the recovery. I'm also still slightly ambivalent about clicking more, but right now, Dr. G has advised not to since my left leg is healing slowly. I'm taking more x-rays this week to see what's what. Not expecting much.

[DoctorGirl]

Definitely. Ask any medical personnel : EMT, nurse, doc, medical students in their final year.  They will tell you the same thing. The only docs who tell you different are the docs who want your money. I was blinded by this forum even though I was a medical student and would pop in every now and then during my lectures. Now, I think I am more or less abandoning the idea. I am not even that short to begin with, just that I have modelling aspirations.

[YellowSpike]

Definitely. Ask any medical personnel : EMT, nurse, doc, medical students in their final year.  They will tell you the same thing. The only docs who tell you different are the docs who want your money. I was blinded by this forum even though I was a medical student and would pop in every now and then during my lectures. Now, I think I am more or less abandoning the idea. I am not even that short to begin with, just that I have modelling aspirations.

I understand if modeling is a career that you want to break into. But in real life, the height of a woman matters very little in almost all career paths (outside of modeling) and men mostly don't care about a woman's height as well. It's men who really get discriminated against on a day-to-day basis that I believe cosmetic LL (outside of people with real dwarfism) was meant for. Even at my previous height, it took me a while to be ready to throw caution to the wind (essentially ignoring all the risks) and do this.

[DoctorGirl]

This is not minor surgery. This is major surgery. And I am talking about going into your bone marrow in some cases. Hell, any student will tell you there is severe embolism risk especially if inadequate measures are taken!

In plastics, there is typical routine surgery like a rhinoplasty and blepharoplasty. All these do come with their risks but are less risky if it is your primary surgery and also if you are going to an experienced surgeon. In plastics, you want the BEST doctor you can find or one of the best, because you are dealing with something that is functional, The doctors that perform reconstructive cases need not be as skilled (though they are more skilled in a technical aspect) as the doctors who are trying to improve what already looks normal. To try to change a 6/10 to a 9/10 is really tough and requires extreme precision and artistic talent. Some patients even demand 10/10 to which my professor said that even in his examinations he doesn't get 10/10, maybe 80%!

In plastics, once we venture from soft tissue surgeries to BONE-cutting surgeries, that is where the real risk starts. That is when patients need general anesthesia. Nerve blocks don't work as well. That is when the real risks develop. In fact for some surgeries we have to work with the Maxillofacial surgeons (eg, Eye Orbit Reconstruction and Box Osteotomy). There is a dedicated team of surgeons and nurses to help.

Move on step further, we have this surgery. We do not just cut bone, but we pull them apart. Lets assume you manage to avoid the intra-operative risks (eg, embolism, cutting a nerve), what about the peri-operative risks (infection to the bone, embolism in the first few days post marrow reaming), and recovery period complications (eg, walking with a limp even one or two years after surgery).

If you are 178 or 180 cm as a male, do you want to deal with all this? As a female, I don't think I would. But I am not a male.

[DoctorGirl]

I understand if modeling is a career that you want to break into. But in real life, the height of a woman matters very little in almost all career paths (outside of modeling) and men mostly don't care about a woman's height as well. It's men who really get discriminated against on a day-to-day basis that I believe cosmetic LL (outside of people with real dwarfism) was meant for. Even at my previous height, it took me a while to be ready to throw caution to the wind (essentially ignoring all the risks) and do this.

Not career, but I do it for the fun of it. I am already a print model but I am way too short to do supermodel. In your case at 5'5 you are the ideal surgical patient. The problem with average height or above average height males and females doing it, when will we stop? Will I stop at 170 cm, for instance? If one step, why not fifty? Guys who are above 165 need to re-evaluate. I have came across social experiments on YouTube. Many girls don't mind a guy shorter than them, though some do.  By doing this surgery, you are perpetuating this idea that: Height is needed for greater success and more height = better life. That is not true. Once you subscribe to this mentality, you will know no end. At 185, you will want to be 190. Will you stop?

As Dr Drew said on the commentary with Justin, cosmetic surgery? That's superficial. He wouldn't do it, because as a medical personnel he knows what surgery is all about. And I know too, trust me, I'm a trainee surgeon.

[YellowSpike]

Not career, but I do it for the fun of it. I am already a print model but I am way too short to do supermodel.

Story of my life. I have done facial modeling (for local print ads, etc), but obviously would never be able to be a real model lol.

I mean, LL is so expensive, painful, cumbersome and time consuming that, even though I'm still relatively short, I don't think I'd ever do it again (even if I was guaranteed a full recovery). It just involves so much. At my previous height, though, I just had to do it. Even though I wasn't dealing with discrimination every single day, I had taken enough shots for my height throughout my life that it was something I really internalized. If a guy is at least 175ish, chances are, no one is making fun of his height.

[YellowSpike]

Me too!  I am already a print model, just for the fun of it (not career), but I am way too short for catwalk.

LOL yeah I did a few shots for friends of mine who wanted me in their advertisements for their businesses. I then dated a professional photographer who took some shots of me. One of which I use as my default for my online dating profile (she wasn't happy about that). I figure if I'm short, gotta pull in those views from the ladies via other methods. All the other pics are "real life" pictures though hehe

LL is serious sh*t. I still can't believe that some women do this (I met several), because I can't see how they'd face as much discrimination (if any at all) that short men would.

[DoctorGirl]

Are you really contributing to social justice? By accepting that short is bad and tall is better? Why not fight this discrimination against short people and prove that short can be good. Instead of betraying your brethren, your fellow short brothers, you decide to reinforce the steoreotype and discrimination against short people. You decide to rise up above your fellow brothers and show the world you are better than them, shoving it down their mouth.

Of course, I value freedom in this democratic era of ours. Of course, kudos to your bravery, I woulnt be able to cope with all the pain of this major surgery. Kudos to your bravery and perserverence.

However, ultimately, at the end of the day, this is just giving in to the social discrimination that is pervasive in every aspect of our modern lives. It is kowtowing to the forces of nature, and the mass media. It is betraying your brothers (that is, fellow short guys). It is being superficial.

Sorry if I sound like a psychiatrist here or  psychologist (always thought psychologists were queer people, as social scientists, they think they know it all with a doctorate in psychology). I am merely expressing my opinion. At the end of the day, Yellowspike and company, you guys are brave and I would not discriminate against you guys  a second time even if I knew about your surgery.

[DoctorGirl]

We should do a LL photoshoot together: Doctorgirl, Yellowspike and me! 

Yeah! That's a good idea..! Before my surgery, if I ever do it. I need more data before I conclude. As a member posted, evidence-based medicine is king. Where are the studies? Has anyone looked at PubMed for instance? We need cold hard data on long-term sequelae, not rose-tinted assurances from businesspeople or online members who aren't even medically trained.

I have always questioned my motivations for doing this surgery. My Mom is an ER nurse. My dad is a heart surgeon. I brought rhinoplasty to the table and they got a fit. When I brought up limb lengthening, they were so mad at me that they refused to talk to me. That is how bad it gets.  When I initially told my mom about this surgery she was adamant: Don't do it. Having read up a little more, she just says its not good but doesn't ban me from doing it. Ultimately I am glad I have parents who can respect my choices in life.

[YellowSpike]

Are you really contributing to social justice? By accepting that short is bad and tall is better? Why not fight this discrimination against short people and prove that short can be good. Instead of betraying your brethren, your fellow short brothers, you decide to reinforce the steoreotype and discrimination against short people.

Of course, I value freedom in this democratic era of ours. Of course, kudos to your bravery, I woulnt be able to cope with all the pain of this major surgery. Kudos to your bravery and perserverence.

However, ultimately, at the end of the day, this is just giving in to the social discrimination that is pervasive in every aspect of our modern lives. It is kowtowing to the forces of nature, and the mass media. It is betraying your brothers (that is, fellow short guys). It is being superficial.

Sorry if I sound like a psychiatrist here or  psychologist (always thought psychologists were queer people, as social scientists, they think they know it all with a doctorate in psychology). I am merely expressing my opinion. At the end of the day, Yellowspike and company, you guys are brave and I would not discriminate against you guys  a second time even if I knew about your surgery.

I just felt like the world as a whole just looked at me in a certain way, regardless of how positive and upbeat I tried to be. I NEVER spoke about my height issues to others. I figured there was really no point.

It's sort of like "fat acceptance." There are plenty of fat acceptance movements out there, yet, most people still attribute many negative stereotypes to fat people (for dating as well as otherwise). There's really not much we can do to change peoples' perceptions, especially when it comes to dating, because we all find attractive what we find attractive. You can put in laws to end discrimination as it relates to job opportunities and such, but people will continue to find attractive and date who they want. But I didn't do it for women since there was no trouble there, I just didn't like always being so much shorter than most other guys (and having many women tower over me in their heels).

Haha count me in for the photoshoot!

[Uppland]

Modelling aside, the way i view this surgery is on one hand the risk versus reward ratio. I.e if you're already at a pretty good height like ajax was then it's hardly worth it and if you're 190CM or taller like that boxer that came here then it's more or less insane, obviously the shorter you are the more you'll benefit. Then there is the trade-off, would the extra height be worth a weaker body, worse proportions and loss of money and time?

For me I think it might be but I'm not sure, obviously my health is primary but if you asked me to choose between being 7CM taller and my 100m sprint record then I'd pick the former.

[YellowSpike]

Modelling aside, the way i view this surgery is on one hand the risk versus reward ratio. I.e if you're already at a pretty good height like ajax was then it's hardly worth it and if you're 190CM or taller like that boxer that came here then it's more or less insane, obviously the shorter you are the more you'll benefit. Then there is the trade-off, would the extra height be worth a weaker body, worse proportions and loss of money and time?

For me I think it might be but I'm not sure, obviously my health is primary but if you asked me to choose between being 7CM taller and my 100m sprint record then I'd pick the former.

Exactly. Everyone has to do their own personal risk to reward scenario analysis. I personally felt that I had everything going for me, but I was short to the point that I personally felt (regardless of my relative success with women) it overshadowed a lot of what I had to offer. Uppland, I know you're Swedish so you guys are very tall on average, but you seem like an intelligent and well-adjusted guy. Assuming you're not ugly, your height shouldn't really hold you back much, if at all.

[Uppland]

Yeah we'll see weather or not I go through with it, until then I might as well make the preporations. It's pretty much my dream to be taller and I want to do the surgery but obviously if I deem the risks unacceptable then that's that.

If I'll ever be certain (enough) that I can lengthen without any significant long-term damage then I'm going to do it.

7CM, my new height will be 186CM -5CM above the average for people my age, I would be very happy at that height.

[Alittletooshort]

Yeah we'll see weather or not I go through with it, until then I might as well make the preporations. It's pretty much my dream to be taller and I want to do the surgery but obviously if I deem the risks unacceptable then that's that.

If I'll ever be certain (enough) that I can lengthen without any significant long-term damage then I'm going to do it.

7CM, my new height will be 186CM -5CM above the average for people my age, I would be very happy at that height.

We are in a very similar situation Uppland, the more I read about limb lengthening the smaller my goals get. My biggest fear of not doing it would be regretting it for the rest of my life.
Atm I'd even be happy with 4cms which can be accieved with the ex fix pretty "safly". Although a height of 186 would be be perfect for me.

[NewHeights]

Not career, but I do it for the fun of it. I am already a print model but I am way too short to do supermodel. In your case at 5'5 you are the ideal surgical patient. The problem with average height or above average height males and females doing it, when will we stop? Will I stop at 170 cm, for instance? If one step, why not fifty? Guys who are above 165 need to re-evaluate. I have came across social experiments on YouTube. Many girls don't mind a guy shorter than them, though some do.  By doing this surgery, you are perpetuating this idea that: HEIGHT is needed for greater success and more height = better life. That is not true. Once you subscribe to this mentality, you will know no end. At 185, you will want to be 190. Will you stop?

As Dr Drew said on the commentary with Justin, cosmetic surgery? That's superficial. He wouldn't do it, because as a medical personnel he knows what surgery is all about. And I know too, trust me, I'm a trainee surgeon.

You raise a good point. I admit that my obsession with increasing my height is based on irrational and exaggerated views on the importance of height.

The bizarre phenomenon though is that I can't escape these views, and I am caught in a self reinforcing vicious cycle.

[NewHeights]

Yeah! That's a good idea..! Before my surgery, if I ever do it. I need more data before I conclude. As a member posted, evidence-based medicine is king. Where are the studies? Has anyone looked at PubMed for instance?We need cold hard data on long-term sequelae, not rose-tinted assurances from businesspeople or online members who aren't even medically trained.

I have always questioned my motivations for doing this surgery. My Mom is an ER nurse. My dad is a heart surgeon. I brought rhinoplasty to the table and they got a fit. When I brought up limb lengthening, they were so mad at me that they refused to talk to me. That is how bad it gets.  When I initially told my mom about this surgery she was adamant: Don't do it. Having read up a little more, she just says its not good but doesn't ban me from doing it. Ultimately I am glad I have parents who can respect my choices in life.
[/quote





There is some data on PubMed but it's not all free

[Uppland]

I honestly think height is very important in life, especially for males. It has a very large influence on how you are percieved by others but also how you percieve them.

Alittletooshort if you want we could do the surgery together, provided we go to the same surgeon and all that.

[NewHeights]

I honestly think height is very important in life, especially for males. It has a very large influence on how you are percieved by others but also how you percieve them.

Alittletooshort if you want we could do the surgery together, provided we go to the same surgeon and all that.

Height is important (in that you are normal height), but being tall is not. Being tall is "nice" but it is not important

[Alittletooshort]

I honestly think height is very important in life, especially for males. It has a very large influence on how you are percieved by others but also how you percieve them.


Alittletooshort if you want we could do the surgery together, provided we go to the same surgeon and all that.

Right now I've saved around 30 000€, which is far from what I'd need. For a Dr. like Guichet, but I am still very unsure about this procedure. How far are you with your plans Uppland?

[Uppland]

Right now I've saved around 30 000€, which is far from what I'd need. For a Dr. like Guichet, but I am still very unsure about this procedure. How far are you with your plans Uppland?

Not that far honestly, I'm sheaduled for a shrink next week and somewhere around that time I will decide if I really want to do this. If do go through with it I will have to tell (convince) my parents, start a workout/stretching routine, do a lot of researh and save up a lot of money -even though my family might be able to pay for most of it.

[Uppland]

Height is important (in that you are normal height), but being tall is not. Being tall is "nice" but it is not important

Of course not being too far out of the average is the most important but when you're close to the mean a relatively small difference can have a large impact. If I for example were 183CM, which is close to average, and added 7CM I would rise through the percentiles and end up legitimately tall at 190CM. Going from average to tall isn't as big of a deal as going frm short to average but it is significant nonetheless, at least I believe so.

In my case I would go from slightly below average to a bit above average if I lengthened 7CM.

[Alittletooshort]

Not that far honestly, I'm sheaduled for a shrink next week and somewhere around that time I will decide if I really want to do this. If do go through with it I will have to tell (convince) my parents, start a workout/stretching routine, do a lot of researh and save up a lot of money -even though my family might be able to pay for most of it.

I know that my parents could easily afford the surgery for me, they'd never pay for it though. I'll turn 19 soon so I've only finished school and have never worked yet. All the money I've got right know basically comes from pocket money. That's also the reason I didn't tell my parents about this, they might stop supporting me with money.
Paying almost 100 000€ for a Dr. like Guichet seems a lot to me.

[DoctorGirl]

I know that my parents could easily afford the surgery for me, they'd never pay for it though. I'll turn 19 soon so I've only finished school and have never worked yet. All the money I've got right know basically comes from pocket money. That's also the reason I didn't tell my parents about this, they might stop supporting me with money.
Paying almost 100 000€ for a Dr. like Guichet seems a lot to me.

My parents can easily pay for it too, but I don't think I can afford it by myself. And I would never trust Russia, India or China.