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[apoxyomenos]

Every time there's a change you know exactly what you're leaving, but not exactly where you'll be, your new feelings. You have in mind just a very perfect idea, not an already touched and lived reality. Thanks to this forum all the LL candidates can touch the realities of the ones who have had their own individual and unrepeatable experiences reported in their own diaries.
But in a lot of diaries in the old forum and in this one there is no big evidence of more happiness/self-confidence achieved (except maybe in a dozen of them: can you list these cases please?). So, if the LLeners have not disappeared, between the lines it's like that there's a sort of light regreat, of light sadness, of not completly achieved happiness, maybe due to: loss of money, loss of time,  loss of health, loss of athletic abilities, loss of proportions, use of aesthetic strategies to disguise the new proportions ( before LL use of lifts/ after LL use of disguising strategies).
So, the original romantic gap between the perfect idea before LL and reality is still there: perhaps in the end nothing changes, you're just taller from the outside, but inside you are always the same, what you are.
"Nature has fram'd strange fellows in her time: some that will evermore peep through their eyes, and laugh, like parrots, at a bag-piper, and others of such vinegar aspect, that they'll not show their teeth in way of smile, though Nestor swear the jest to be laughable".
So, is LL worth?
Yes, if you're more or less like a midget very far from the average of your country (but once again  it's all relative) or if the alternative of your actual state of mind is suicide, go for it; otherwise you could think one more time while wearing lifts:))
Once you've undertaken this path, you can't go back, it's irreversible,  you will abandon forever your golden section proportions  (except for individual safe amounts) and when older you'll have more probabilities (expect for individual safe amounts) of facing eventual problems such as stasis eczema, arthritis, thrombosis... (source Wikipedia).
So, before doing LL, consider that your original perfect idea could not unfortunatly become your expected and waited for so long reality, but if the fate wants it, your perfect idea will be your perfect reality forever.
You have to offer a sacrifice to Zeus, so that the fate will be your knight in shining armour...

[The Kaiser]

Every time there's a change you know exactly what you're leaving, but not exactly where you'll be, your new feelings. You have in mind just a very perfect idea, not an already touched and lived reality. Thanks to this forum all the LL candidates can touch the realities of the ones who have had their own individual and unrepeatable experiences reported in their own diaries.
But in a lot of diaries in the old forum and in this one there is no big evidence of more happiness/self-confidence achieved (except maybe in a dozen of them: can you list these cases please?). So, if the LLeners have not disappeared, between the lines it's like that there's a sort of light regreat, of light sadness, of not completly achieved happiness, maybe due to: loss of money, loss of time,  loss of health, loss of athletic abilities, loss of proportions, use of aesthetic strategies to disguise the new proportions ( before LL use of lifts/ after LL use of disguising strategies).
So, the original romantic gap between the perfect idea before LL and reality is still there: perhaps in the end nothing changes, you're just taller from the outside, but inside you are always the same, what you are.
"Nature has fram'd strange fellows in her time: some that will evermore peep through their eyes, and laugh, like parrots, at a bag-piper, and others of such vinegar aspect, that they'll not show their teeth in way of smile, though Nestor swear the jest to be laughable".
So, is LL worth?
Yes, if you're more or less like a midget very far from the average of your country (but once again  it's all relative) or if the alternative of your actual state of mind is suicide, go for it; otherwise you could think one more time while wearing lifts:))
Once you've undertaken this path, you can't go back, it's irreversible,  you will abandon forever your golden section proportions  (except for individual safe amounts) and when older you'll have more probabilities (expect for individual safe amounts) of facing eventual problems such as stasis eczema, arthritis, thrombosis... (source Wikipedia).
So, before doing LL, consider that your original perfect idea could not unfortunatly become your expected and waited for so long reality, but if the fate wants it, your perfect idea will be your perfect reality forever.
You have to offer a sacrifice to Zeus, so that the fate will be your knight in shining armour...

Once you completely healed there is no long term complication

[Penguinn]

Once you've undertaken this path, you can't go back, it's irreversible,  you will abandon forever your golden section proportions  (except for individual safe amounts) and when older you'll have more probabilities (expect for individual safe amounts) of facing eventual problems such as stasis eczema, arthritis, thrombosis... (source Wikipedia).

There've been no long term studies linking LL to athritis, and except maybe LON, how?

As for proportions, as long as you don't look horrendous, you're the only one that will mostly care about them. "We're all the heroes of our own stories" and most people are too busy minding their own business to care. But yeah, if you lengthen half a foot you're going to look bad.

I wouldn't look at LL as a means to go from 5' to 6' but a few inches gain depending on your proportions, time, money etc is rational. I've never seen a case with 2-3" of lengthening that made me go "There's definitely something wrong here" unless your segment is already unnaturally long and you lengthen that one. Even those inches can be life changing for those below average height.

But in a lot of diaries in the old forum and in this one there is no big evidence of more happiness/self-confidence achieved (except maybe in a dozen of them: can you list these cases please?)

I made a poll about whether LL was worth it to those who did it: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3741.msg57002#msg57002
Unless a lot of non-veterans have voted and ruined it, most people agree it was. The comments show them being happy with their LL. Unicorn faced complications, she's still happy. The boy doing his LL cheap in Vietnam is happy. I'm very glad I did this(I'm not done yet). These are just the recent diaries.

[jbc]

// breaking my self-imposed abstinence from this forum to hopefully share something useful

The most meaningful advice I got regarding percentages, centimeters, etc. was from Drs. Paley and Packer. They both said "how much you lengthen depends on how much your body is able to tolerate. We will not lengthen you more than your body can realistically achieve under medically safe parameters." (this takes into account the hard limit of 8cm of the Precise nail, obviously)

I don't know what all the parameters are, but I would suspect they involve loss of flexibility, loss of range of motion, nerve damage, bones not healing, etc.

During my conversation with Dr. Packer, she said some people come in and are absolutely fixated on the full 8 centimeters, and in some cases, some of those people have to make peace with the reality that it will just not happen for them.

So, neither percentages nor centimeters are most important. Safety is most important. You want to come out exactly like you came in health-wise, just taller (and, well, with a few somewhat noticeable scars - not much can be done about that except fading over time, creams, plastic surgery, if it's all that important).

I have a goal, but am not married to that goal. I don't want to do multiple surgeries, and I want as close to a full recovery as possible. It's already awesome that you can grow 3 inches after your growth plates close - even less than that, huge achievement for most people. Go in with safety as the #1 priority, come out healthy and enjoy your new height.

Here are, however, some things that _may_ help get you close to the maximum number:

1) Lots of flexibility. With all the doctors I've consulted, they all cited this as the # 1 success factor in getting the maximum amount of height from the procedure
2) A very regimented and methodical recovery plan, and extra stretching and PT.
- Dr. Packer really stressed this. Everything has to be done on the clock, daily, like the most punctual drill of your life.
3) Obviously, optimal health and lean muscle mass. No smoking, drinking, etc.
- Dr. Guichet is on to something when he says "prepare like an Olympic athlete for this". Bodies that are healthy and strong have much lower risk factors and chances of complication, and will generally recover faster.
- Drs. Paley and Packer reinforced the health part. They both said that in some cases, older patients recover faster than much younger ones due a much more optimal physical condition. Programdude's diary mentioned this several times, from his experience. They went as far as saying that even up to 50 years of age, age is not a factor for patients that are very healthy and in good shape.

Last - Yoga and especially Pilates. I've "grown" a full inch from both. Mind you, this is making the most of height I had but lost due to moderate scoliosis and, despite ridiculous flexibility and athleticism, poor posture and neck alignment. Probably also the case for most people, our posture sucks nowdays. So this gives you back something you probably already had, but 2.2 cms is nothing to laugh at and it's either less that you have to lengthen, or something extra to gain.

I should mention that this is the most I'll gain through Yoga and Pilates. I've straightened and realigned my spine as much as I can without surgery (and it's been close to a full recovery), but aside from not walking around with a stupid hip gait, I'm a bit taller, and that's pretty awesome. They'll also get you flexible if you're not, which will definitely help with the procedure.

Also, there are absolutely tall people that do this surgery. Dr. Paley operated on a 5'11" Dutch patient (he cites this on his website). Of the thousands of people that do this procedure (Precise alone apparently just hit 2,000 nails, with Dr. Paley having inserted 350 of them, there are only a handful of diaries, and the majority are on this site). I won't reveal my height - many have asked - but I cannot be considered short (I also cannot be considered tall, I am not 6'), and I'll have this surgery in less than 3 months.

HTH. Focus on going in as flexible and as healthy as you can, and always keep safety first.

--jbc

[IwannaBeTaller]

Hope is fine so long as you are not being delusional. There's a huge difference between a positive attitude and a delusional one. Most of the people on this board suffer from the latter!

I get it being short fking sucks it wrecks our lives and we have no control over it however pushing yourself to do 'ideal' amounts or trying to get your money's worth for what you paid is going to fk a lot of people up.

This surgery I'm sure has helped a lot of people the ones who did safe amounts and listened to their bodies however I'm sure there are numerous folk out there this surgery has messed up badly.

This surgery is not your knight in shining armour that a lot of folk on here think it is

Of course if you come really close to the actual surgery, you have to consider all possible outcomes, and prepare for a painful recovery time. But if your surgery is still years away, and you struggle from day to day, because you are constantly towered by taller dudes and you feel like trash, using the thought that "one day, I'll do LL and easily be 6-7 cms (or a similar number) taller, it won't be easy, but I will prepare for my best, manage the recovery, and then I'll finally have more of the height I've always wanted" as your distant hope to cure your depression, is perfectly fine.

Not to mention the possible advancement of lengthening techniques and new technologies like stem cells, nanobots, synthetic growth plates. These can also be great spots of hope, even if they're 120 years away, because future generations won't have to suffer the height neurosis I have to.

[crimsontide]

You should not get your info from an online website run by non Drs

So even though my diary is real,  you can NOT trust any diary on here, including mine

This  forum still has Suhas Shah up as a Dr. I can tell you for a fact that Dr shah would never be allowed to practice in the United States, and his clinic would never pass any      state inspection

There are patients on here that still can not walk  1-2 years after surgery.  When I say can not walk, I'm not talking about a case such as myself, where I can't walk exactly as I did in the past. I mean they can not walk  at all.
.
Guys,  do not get this surgery.     If you wanna  talk to a reasonable person, I suggest  listening to Alu

[midnightninja]

You all need to ignore Crimson.

Crimson lengthened 7+cm in ONE SEGMENT.
He went to a bad doctor and he also did barely any physical therapy during his lengthening.

This surgery should be done at the best doctors, while in top pre-op physical shape.
You cannot blame and tell other people to rethink this surgery when you yourself did not think before getting it done.  7+cm in one segment is stupid and ridiculous especially in the tibias which we know the limit should be 4cm. You have no one but yourself to blame and should stop the bias posting.

[onemorefoot]

I think the limit for tibias is 6cm, after that is is dangerous.

[apoxyomenos]

In terms of limits, even if one individual is different from another (and once again it's all relative), I couldn't agree more with Midnightninja: in the diaries here we have 2 examples: Wannabegiant and OldieButGoldie. 2 stories of succesful recovery and outcome. Why? The first lengthened about 4cm in the tibia, the second about 5cm in femurs. 4/5=0.80....These are the safe limits... all the others who have lengthened more than about 4cm in tibias and more than about 5cm in femurs have always reported something negative, if they don't have disappeared, in terms of new biomechanics, balance, proportions, dorsiflexion, etc.... but this is my opinion, you can disagree with me...of course if you do both segments you can do a bit more because you keep in balance the crural index....it's a personal choice, if you wanna do 10cm in 1 segment, do it, then post a pic of your new proportions and a video while running, please, so that it could help potential LLeners.

[onemorefoot]

Kilo increased 6 cm and is well.

[crimsontide]

midnight,  i was actually told to  reply  to you by another member that actually had ll

wanna know what they said??  They agreed with me.  They will not post here, but I will

You have no idea of what you are talking about, and you seem a bit confused. First off, you don't know me, or anything about me. We have never spoken or met, and you don't know anyone that knows me.

I've met exactly 1 member from this forum, and it was not you

Your logic escapes me. I can't  tell others to make a mistake because I made a mistake???  Very interesting logic there.
You can make excuse after excuse, but that's because you're deluded

Do you realize I'm actually doing better than alot/ most?     people that  had the surgery.  You try to portray me as a bad case , when in actuality,  while I'm   not in the top 10%, I'm certainly not in the bottom 50%

I can walk without a limp, and have no pain... I actually did do pt, though pt does not do that much. It's 90+ % genetic.

Look at the diaries. Sweden has constant pain.  Rgkey  has  severe deformities.  One of paley's patients   suffered a severe fracture while lengthening. Other patients can not walk at all

These are  all facts which  no one can deny

Have you ever wondered  why almost no one posts videos??? How many  patients have posted videos of themselves  skipping down  stairs???

I could post a video now of myself walking, and say " hey guys, look at me, doing great"

No one would notice anything out of the ordinary, yet I refuse to lie to  potential patients.

If you think that  voluntarily breaking  healthy legs, then stretching them even 4 cm  will not impact your  functionality, then I put you in the same category as evolution deniers.

You all need to ignore Crimson.

Crimson lengthened 7+cm in ONE SEGMENT.
He went to a bad doctor and he also did barely any physical therapy during his lengthening.

This surgery should be done at the best doctors, while in top pre-op physical shape.
You cannot blame and tell other people to rethink this surgery when you yourself did not think before getting it done.  7+cm in one segment is stupid and ridiculous especially in the tibias which we know the limit should be 4cm. You have no one but yourself to blame and should stop the bias posting.

[crimsontide]

I will agree with this post in 1 aspect

anyone thinking they can do 6 or more cm on tibias or femurs should be prepared for complications

I don't agree though that even 4 cm is safe.   My evidence is patients here that had severe complications before 4 cm

Is 4 cm safer? Yes. is it safe?. No

In terms of limits, even if one individual is different from another (and once again it's all relative), I couldn't agree more with Midnightninja: in the diaries here we have 2 examples: Wannabegiant and OldieButGoldie. 2 stories of succesful recovery and outcome. Why? The first lengthened about 4cm in the tibia, the second about 5cm in femurs. 4/5=0.80....These are the safe limits... all the others who have lengthened more than about 4cm in tibias and more than about 5cm in femurs have always reported something negative, if they don't have disappeared, in terms of new biomechanics, balance, proportions, dorsiflexion, etc.... but this is my opinion, you can disagree with me...of course if you do both segments you can do a bit more because you keep in balance the crural index....it's a personal choice, if you wanna do 10cm in 1 segment, do it, then post a pic of your new proportions and a video while running, please, so that it could help potential LLeners.

[YourSpaceBoyfriend]

RGKEY is probably the worst example since he did 9cm tibia lengthening....

[crimsontide]

Rgkey did a lot

swden did less, and I won't say names here, but others did  even less and suffered severe complications way before 6 cm

[onemorefoot]

Depends also on the length of you tibia, is not the same a 180 cm person lengthening 6 cm than one of 150 cm lengthening the same, you shouldnt pass the 20 per cent of the lenght of the bone.

[apoxyomenos]

Thanks for your intellectual honesty Crimsontide.

[applesandoranges]

What complications would you possibly have if u do just 4cm precice femur with a good DR? I can't see any problems happening unless a freak a accident occurs...

[apoxyomenos]

Onemorefoot, the 20% rule is a myth, a myth that has a meaning untill it remains enclosed in your mind dreaming about LL to justify your goals, but it doesn't apply to the individual, unique and unrepeatable reality of LL.
Consider for example Penguinn's femur length (sorry Penguin if I take your data as example, but in few diaries there are the right measures of the limbs) of 42,6cm...42,6*0.2=8,52cm....so what would this rule imply?...
Consider instead of not going too far from your original crural index for your new biomechanics, that you will experiment only at the end of the process, and about which before LL you have only an idea in your mind, even if this idea seems perfect to you....wait reality....

[apoxyomenos]

I agree with you applesandoranges...

[TrueSpartan]

Apoxy. People with lengthening done all over the scale have recovered differently depending on luck, the pre op. Prep, doctor and method used,  there post op. work put in.

Recovery is more affected by soft tissues and muscle fibers lengthening then total amount of bone lengthened (assuming reasonable amount)  and this is dependent on how flexible you are,  how fast you lengthen etc. I don't understand how the crural index has anything to do with your success.

Assume you lengthen 2cm at 3mm per day. How well will your recovery be.

[apoxyomenos]

I assume it is important for your new biomechanics (there is an article I have cited), there will be a reason why it has a certain value in your body, nevertheless I realize that I've written too much. I'm not entitled since I'm only a potential LLener, me too with my "perfect" conservative ideas in my mind but without a personal LL experience, at the end of which from perfect they could appear wrong. Like talking about how to drive a car, having just read a book. It's better for me to shut up, all my ideas and thoughts have been already written in my previous posts.

[Penguinn]

I'll add that until 5cms of internal femoral lengthening I had zero problems. If that were my goal, I'd call my lengthening flawless. My right leg's knee bending issue has just begun at 2". 2-3" is also where my proportions will go from fine to a bit off(without clothes). However my doctor hasn't told me I need to stop, I'm doing intense physio and the lack of perfect proportions is worth it to me for the 3rd inch.

Also most people that did LL seem to think it was a great decision.
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3741.msg57002#msg57002

Assume you lengthen 2cm at 3mm per day. How well will your recovery be.

3mm per day is insane.

[midnightninja]

I have read your diary twice. I have seen that you post negatively on here due to your surgery mistakes, sharing your story is one thing but posting negatively due to your mistakes is wrong.
You advise people not to get this surgery when you failed to do this surgery safely. You lengthened the upper most limit on your tibias and you went to a bad doctor while doing no physical therapy.

Here is a video of someone who is running after LL.


This is an extensive and dangerous surgery, this surgery should not be done if you don't have the funds to go to the best dr. There are people on here who says "I have 20k who should I go to?" this is wrong.
As much as we hate to read this, money should not define your doctor. You should go to the best dr and save for it.

 I will reiterate what I have said, you're telling people not to do this surgery when you botched yourself from the beginning by neglecting physical therapy, going to a crap dr, and lengthening too much on one segment.

I myself have the funds to go and get 4cm done at this moment. I plan on doing 3cm on femurs and tibias because I am a smart and unlike you, I know doing 7+cm on one bone is stupid.

[crimsontide]

 you seem to  not notice the difference bewtween an anecdote and a  scientific study

One video  means almost nothing. There are always exceptions,.

I also said I could post a video of myself, and no one would  think there was anything wrong with me if I did not tell them how  I feel when I walk

I still have not seen even 1 video of  an ll patient  running down a flight of stairs.   Anyone that has done ll will tell you going downstairs  is the  one ability that is most difficult to regain

Am I saying that  no ll patient can skip down stairs? No, but if I had to guess, I'd be very confident that % is well below 30%

For some people, perhaps they don't mind not being as they once were, but I'm not one of them

Sweden is another one that  will tell you what I just said. Some people are ok with just  having very basic functionality, but I suspect most are not

It's a very hard thing to admit that you've most likely permanently  harmed  your body,  which accounts for members not regretting their surgery,( Rgkey will tell you it was a fantastic decision, so I don't put much stock into patient satisfaction surveys)   but that's the way it is for most ll patients

I have read your diary twice. I have seen that you post negatively on here due to your surgery mistakes, sharing your story is one thing but posting negatively due to your mistakes is wrong.
You advise people not to get this surgery when you failed to do this surgery safely. You lengthened the upper most limit on your tibias and you went to a bad doctor while doing no physical therapy.

Here is a video of someone who is running after LL.


This is an extensive and dangerous surgery, this surgery should not be done if you don't have the funds to go to the best dr. There are people on here who says "I have 20k who should I go to?" this is wrong.
As much as we hate to read this, money should not define your doctor. You should go to the best dr and save for it.

 I will reiterate what I have said, you're telling people not to do this surgery when you botched yourself from the beginning by neglecting physical therapy, going to a crap dr, and lengthening too much on one segment.

I myself have the funds to go and get 4cm done at this moment. I plan on doing 3cm on femurs and tibias because I am a smart and unlike you, I know doing 7+cm on one bone is stupid.

[TIBIKE200]

It's a give and take crimsone... You were just oblivious to how much you were supposed to give. Some people are ok with less agility, athletisism or whatever. You arent (and there is nothing wrong with that). But from here to say that this surgery is disastrous is another thing.

[guichethope]

7 in tibia is madness no way I ever do this  , midnight is a smart boy he will do fine  . I am like him actually I am aiming for 4+3 or 4,5 +3,5  I will see with Paley when it will be my time . 

[Cain1234]

I believe if your young and healthy up to 8 cm on tibia is possible. Many things decides wether you're a good candidate or not. Such as muscle attachments, Achilles' tendon position, bone density...

[Dhdhdjuru]

is it possible to lengthen the Femur and Tibia during the same surgery? I would would prefer to do like 7-8cm on both and not have to come back for more after a year.

[Body Builder]

is it possible to lengthen the Femur and Tibia during the same surgery? I would would prefer to do like 7-8cm on both and not have to come back for more after a year.

No respectable doctor would allow that.
If you want to win a year but never be able to walk again normally (if you could even walk) then you really should avoid LL.

[LLSouthAmerica]

No respectable doctor would allow that.
If you want to win a year but never be able to walk again normally (if you could even walk) then you really should avoid LL.

I thought I saw quadrilateral lengthening advertised in Paley web page when I was researching LL.

[Dhdhdjuru]

Well I saw that on Paleys website it said you can do Femur first and 3 weeks later the tibia. I want about 15cm height increase in total.