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[speaknuh]

Actually that particular issue is confirmed through recent research on non-cosmetic patients and not just the word of one doctor:

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=99.msg2672#msg2672

And I bet many of them didn't even lengthen much, they simply had a rod implanted to help correct their injuries.

I see... does this issue occur in both internal tibia and internal femur patients, or just tibia patients as the study suggests?  What do we know about the long term effects on patients who undergo internal femoral lengthening?

[LLL]

I see... does this issue occur in both internal tibia and internal femur patients, or just tibia patients as the study suggests?  What do we know about the long term effects on patients who undergo internal femoral lengthening?

Wondering about that myself.

[speaknuh]

Going to just bump this thread since I don't think we've reached any definitive answer on the long term effects of LL.  To me, there's absolutely no reason for me to sacrifice a pair of otherwise healthy legs just for some slight height gain.

Concerning internals:

If arthritis is a common occurrence among patients who undergo internal tibial lengthening, why have I not seen this discussed well enough in the past (on old forum /LL Forum)?  What do we know about the long term experience of patients who've undergone internal femoral lengthening?  How many years are we looking at before we can get a good evaluation of whether a patient sustains long term consequences from CLL? 

I recall various sources stating CLL contains no long term side effects so long as the procedure is done correctly, so it's come as a bit of a shock to me that the internal tibial method has proven to have complications years down the line.  Sure everyone on the forum is as concerned about the short and long term risk factor as I am...?

[speaknuh]

It look like my replies (as well as old forum PartyLeaks's) on the "Site feels dead..." post were moved on over to this one, probably to consolidate relevant information to this one post.  Though I didn't request this, I believe it will help keep all the information in one compact thread.  Just to clear up the confusion as one of my replies starts with "this forum is far from dead" or something along the lines, which was in response to that original post.

Just wanted to bring this thing up as well: on the makemetaller post, there is a very clear statement on the site's must-read post that purports that LL has posed no long-term complications 50 years since its inception:

18. Are there any long-term complications from having LL?
LL has been practised for over 50 years and there are no reports of any long-term complications, and no reason or logic to suggest that there should be.
[source: old forum  Topic: Leg Lengthening FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions)]  http/www link edit

The reason this is strange to me is that it was written in 2011, three years after this pubmed article was published, clearly articulating the long-term issues of LL http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758282

Ever since limblengtheningforum.com opened, I've had to completely re-evaluate my understanding of LL.  There's so much misinformation out there on the subject of limb lengthening, it's incredibly discouraging... we need to understand exactly what LL is, and clarify the level of risk we are getting ourselves into.  I'm glad we're now on what I think is a more open/free channel for communication through this forum, but I constantly wonder if this is enough. 

Stay safe, people.

[Muse]

@speaknuh, 

Yeap, I merged those posts into this topic so it's easier for everyone to not miss out on the information posted.  Also edited http/www links to Make Me Taller, as explained in our forum guidelines. 

So this thread will be the consolidated version for anyone interested in the long term effect of LL, it's definitely a topic worth having more insights and discussion about.  I was personally motivated to start the new forum because of a statement that sum up old forum  nowadays

"pick a cheap Doctor and cross your finger hoping it's safe".

That should not be the way.   Safety and Recovery must come first.   Also it's not healthy when one person is constantly shoving his opinion down people's throat and deleting posts that he disagree with, among other things.   

Since I disagree with how old forum  is run,  I decided to do something about it and hope that this forum will be better than old forum .

[longerlegzzz1980]

We should start a compilation of studies on this thread or another one.  This would provide a central location for solid research derived information involving a large number of patients.  We then discuss the conclusions of the studies, have a better assessment of the real risks, and be able to compile questions to ask current LL doctors using this data.

Do you all agree?

[somecm]

The biggest long term effect I know is height. 

[speaknuh]

We should start a compilation of studies on this thread or another one.  This would provide a central location for solid research derived information involving a large number of patients.  We then discuss the conclusions of the studies, have a better assessment of the real risks, and be able to compile questions to ask current LL doctors using this data.

Do you all agree?

I'm all for this, though I wonder how much has been done in the way of studying these long term effects.  If we were to compile a bunch of studies, it would be useful to note what particular surgery was done, when it was performed, what device was used, etc. (though for my interests specifically I want to know more about femoral internal lengthening).

It's strange to me that people out there are still interested in going through CLL when we haven't yet reached a consensus on its long term effects over our legs.  Two new patient diaries for Dr. Paley have sprung up over the last few weeks on the old forum, which I am pretty suspicious of (moreover, why post on a site where your message gets filtered by the admin before it becomes public?).  While I am anticipating the results of the Precice 2 before I jump into CLL myself, I'm pretty concerned about the welfare of the people undertaking CLL without knowing fully its risks and consequences. 

[Medium Drink Of Water]

I got a private message about this and wanted to share it with the rest of the forum.

Here's the Universal Pain Assessment Tool:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/25724858/UNIVERSAL-PAIN-ASSESSMENT-TOOL

When walking it's 0.5 to 1.  I notice it but can ignore it and just keep walking, for hours if necessary.  After using the knees a lot I barely notice it at all.  If my knees were metal, I'd say they get rusty easily and that using them lubricates them.

When kneeling it's 1 to 3.  I always notice it, and sometimes I can ignore it.  But other times it interferes with tasks.  The worst situation would be walking on my knees on a hard surface.  I'd definitely feel it and it would interfere with how I walked.  Working out doesn't help this at all.  I guess I'd better behave myself since apologizing on my knees would hurt. 

[KiloKAHN]

Thanks for this. I have to risk the possible permanent knee pain of LON/LATN since I just don't have the time to do external. It's nice to have an idea of what sort of permanent pain I risk getting a rod put in.

[Sweden]

I can't sit on my knees either on a hard surface. It hurts too much.

I'm just home from Taekwondo class and my knees feel sore on the inside bc I jumped a lot.
My ankles hurt on the inside too.
It's terrible.
I think I ruined my life. I can't do   actually.

I'm going to try and do a video this Thursday or tomorrow. Then I'll show you how fast I am and how explosive I can be.

I was the greatest in my town and I ruined it for ~6cm of height. What the hell did I do to myself?

[Wannabegiant]

I can't sit on my knees either on a hard surface. It hurts too much.

I'm just home from Taekwondo class and my knees feel sore on the inside bc I jumped a lot.
My ankles hurt on the inside too.
It's terrible.
I think I ruined my life. I can't do s**t actually.

I'm going to try and do a video this Thursday or tomorrow. Then I'll show you how fast I am and how explosive I can be.

I was the greatest in my town and I ruined it for ~6cm of height. What the hell did I do to myself?

Sweden think about it this way if you can:

You are in your mid thirties right? then your athletic prime would soon be over, you have already accomplished more than most people do in terms of sports. So when you eventually stop doing taekwondo those 6 cm will benefit you more than they hurt hopefully. Of course this is assuming the pain issues keep improving.

I know many people who have problems with their knees and legs without having done any LL, their problems come from small injuries and because they are lazy. Its pretty normal. They cannot play sports at a high level because of this but they are happy with their life anyway.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

I almost view this as a positive influence on my life (the knee pain).  Whenever I don't feel like working out I remember the knees and the LL and being short.  I already made this tradeoff, I already got my new height, so now I have to pay for it every day with a workout.  There is no going back on the deal.

[Wannabegiant]

I almost view this as a positive influence on my life (the knee pain).  Whenever I don't feel like working out I remember the knees and the LL and being short.  I already made this tradeoff, I already got my new height, so now I have to pay for it every day with a workout.  There is no going back on the deal.

Thats probably the best way to handle a problem like that, im impressed 

[The View]

Do you workout everyday because your ll? I am sorry I don't understand what you mean are you still recovering?

[Sweden]

My knees are much better. I barely feel them at all.
I can even sit on them on a hard surface but I prefer not to.

Sitting still for an hour or so makes them sore and it takes a while to get them going again, like 5-6 strides.

Running is no problem either for the knees.

Some days they can ache a little and others it's nothing at all.
If I'm up and going I don't feel any ache at all.

[Uppland]

I want to renew the discussion of permanent effects because I think people on here are too optimistic -naive- even about what this surgery means. The general consensus seems to be: "I'tll be tough but I'm going to get through it and then I'll enjoy being tall for the rest of my life -who cares about muscle stiffness or knee pain I was never into sports anyway."

Not only will this mindset lead to a rude awekening but it can be outright dangerous as stated in this thread: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=680.0

Limb lenghtening is dangerous, it can even be life-threatening here are a number of common complications that can occour. Each one is quite unlikely but altogether there is a very real chance that one or more of these will happen to you:

- nerve damage (numbness, altered sensation, painful supersensitivity (from neuromas formations),
- paralysis, or reduced motor function or response times, especially in high level sports);
- pain and stiffness from internal trauma and scarring;
- bio mechanical load changes and it's added load stresses on joints (back, hip, knees, and ankles) leading to pain and possible early Arthritis
- reduced Athletic response time and abilities;
- permanent muscle / adipose tissue damage / atrophy; mobility issues; reduced agility;
- osteoporosis and increased chances of osteochonral lesions;
- lingering aches and pains months or years, or even a lifetime after the lengthening is complete and you say Good Bye to your CLL doctor.etc."

The scary part is that this can happen to anyone regardless if you pay a million euros or 5 thousand. It has happened in Germany and the US so we aren't safe just because we go with a respected surgeon.

Even if you make it through unscathed you will never recover fully -well you might if you only do 2CM but then what's the point?
No you will have hurt your body in a very real sense and in such a way that no doctor can ever fix it. I know a lot of you might think that you can deal with some issues and that it's a worthy trade-off for that extra height but will you think that 6 years from now, or 10? -Remember this is forever it can't be undone.

Some of us think it's possible to recover completely -100%- you're just as good as you were and you've still got all the potential you once had- Well maybe it can be done afterall Shyshy says he had but for every success story there are three other like Sweden who feels he has destroyed his body and replaced it with regret -and for everone of him there are five other diaries who just end abruptly with no follow-up and it gets moved to the back of the list never mentioned again.

What happens to these people? I like to think the just move on with their life and forget the whole thing but who can say. If you fell into a depression because you now move like a 60-year old or people avoid you because you look like a freak or worst case scenario you've lost a leg -would you really continue to update your thread on a small internet forum?

These things worry me because even though I am tall by this sites standard I don't see a very happy future for me at this height and yet what if I do this surgery and I regret it? I don't have a bad life but it needs improvement in this one area -the question is: is it worth the risks and can I deal with the effects?

Guys, can we really live a life like someone who was naturally tall after LL or will we always be a bit damaged, always be slightly crippled and always a bit of an abomination?

And an addition: maybe I'm not the one to talk but you guys that are 183CM or above you've already got a respectable height are you reall certain this is all worth it? I know I wouldn't do it if I were 185CM.

[Moubgf]

OK. you win.. Everybody that was about to do this surgery. Cancel it.

You are talking to deaf ears. It does not matter. Is like when your hungry. You might put it off for sometime. But you will eat inevitably orelse you die inside.

[Uppland]

But this is serious it's a life altering decision. I refuse to believe people on here don't want to discuss stuff like this -it's more important than all the pointless arguments about girls and threads about what women care about. We can go to a relationships forum for that crap this site is supposed to be about discussing the surgery.

[GeTs]

This should be addressed to Ajax/endomorphisme

[Moubgf]

But this is serious it's a life altering decision. I refuse to believe people on here don't want to discuss stuff like this -it's more important than all the pointless arguments about girls and threads about what women care about. We can go to a relationships forum for that crap this site is supposed to be about discussing the surgery.

The subjects are intertwined, one string fits to the other. I find this thread more pointless because as i said i could give 2 flies about the consequences others might not agree with me but i doubt it.

I've been a member for 5 years ive seen it all inside out. all the old school diaries. I get the feeling you are new here and think that this thread is somewhat revelation to the majority of members but its not. It just states the obvious. sorry.

[ForcedPuberty]

take a look at the poll for itsmylifes diary.

the statistic never seems to change.

40% believe in 5-6cm
20% believe in 6-7cm
20% believe in 7-8cm
20% believe in 8-9cm

this is the very reason why so many people get fked up. the second reason is because we all know soft tissue cant go past 0.66mm per day and NO MUTHERfkER STICKS TO IT.

instead they (ultimately do an average of 0.66mm perday) but destroy their body 1 day at a time by over lengthening on a daily basis, they think they are fine during this process because they mask the symptoms of the damage with massive levels of pain killers. ultimately they are fking their body up.

I can tell you with certainty the body can not lengthen past this level unless you use medication to lie to yourself about how fast you can lengthen. when you do something bad the body produces pain to tell you to fking stop. my doctor will not give me any pain killers and I tell you now going above 0.66 is impossible. because your body screams to stop this madness. the same for going above 5cm in total length.

I have never seen a diary where someone did 5cm or less and had permanent damage. with a good doctor. and lengthened 0.66mm per day every single day.

the problem is that people need to be informed about how serious this surgery is. but NOOOOOO every stupid mutherfker comes here wanting to lengthen 20cm, and then ultimately decides on less but still decide to do too much. the problem is greed. people are greedy they want to complete the surgery as fast as possible and want to lengthen the maximum as possible.

greed needs to end.
6cm tibia is the MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.
external femur 5cm MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.

internal femur...... I cant answer. but every stupid nobody who does answer will answer this question with greed in their mind wanting it to be as high as possible. and that again is the problem. your body has limits.

[endomorphisme]

you won't recover completely, some people may think they are fully recovered because they are not athletic, and i think 4 cm is pretty safe with a good doctor  and if you follow his recommendations, but people on the forum call you retard because they consider 4 cm is not worth it.
Overall i agree, i'm more concerned by the risks than money and proportions

[paco1]

Hi forcedpuberty in which country aro you do lengthening?

[joax]

I'm also very interested about this topic and rest assured that Slim_tim's response is not representative of the entire forum. I believe that we should compile more data (complications, etc) from diaries and other sources so we know exactly what we're getting into.

[Uppland]

Yeah we should try to move this forum in a more serious direction instead of resting it between a forum for serious discussion and a community of short folks complaining about women and disrespectful friends.

I've come to respect Forced puberty, even though he can be a bit crude, because he actually brings up relevant information and he at least seems to know what he's talking about. The thing he said about not lenghtening over 0,66mm per day is very interesting but is it possible todo that while avoiding premature consolidation?

Also the safe limits are important I think staying below 7CM with internal femur and below 5CM in the tibia is key -won't even bother adressing ext. femur. The less -the safer. We also should do a better job of cautioning people that have excessive goals in mind for their own good.

As for Slim_Tim I know this has been discussed before but there is still no consensus. Until we have at least guidelines that will help ensure a reasonable recovery I'll continue making threads like this. Also: an important topic like this needs to be an ongoing discussion as we successively learn more about how we can stay as safe as possible.

[crimsontide]

you guys, especially the ones that never did lengthening are simply wrong... there are no definites first of all


i lengthened over 7 cm... i lewngthened more than .66 mm a day often...


guess what... I'm in no pain, and on no painkillers... ill see dr agaon on wed, but i'm pretty sure im ok

I can already walk. etc etc

i might need to realign my left leg, which is a bit annoying, but other than that... and a very tiny amount of numbness that seems to be going away(already cant even notice it unless i consciuously think of it)... and  it has zero impact on function


Will I be 100%... well, Considering the fact that I, as well as most others, never pushed our bodies to ithe maximum anyway, I doubt it even matters

For most people, while technically they will  not be 100%, for all intents and purposes, they will not even notice theres a difference


the people that have done ll, ask them if they regret it, almost all will confidently say no...


I know I don't regret it... even with the potential of fixing one last issue... for me to regret it, I'd have to suffer loss of a limb or  motor function


Being short sucks

[123]

I had LL so maybe you want to here my experience about that.

If you have a good doc you will be completely healed after a certain time, once the bone is fully consolidated you will be same as pre op, just like after a normal broken bone. But of course things can happen, but they rarely happen and if you have a competent doc, he will fix them. I walk like pre-OP 11 months after my first OP, no one can tell that I had a big operation, because I walk completely normal.

If it's worth it though? I'm not sure, even though I'm average now and that I feel tall at 178cm (with shoes) and I live where the average height is 179cm, so I really enjoy that but 1 year is a long time. Would I do LL at this height? Not even if I got paid millions, I can promise you that. I realized that this height thing is more of a mental problem, I felt like a king at 165cm because I never thought about height, but when I started to think about it and read on bull  forums like this I started to get problems.

So my tip to you is get off this forum like I did (well sometimes I come and read some things when I'm really bored, but I'm not as active as I used to be) and forget about height because you are fine and please don't come with this bull  excuse like "I'm from Sweden hurr durr" it's nonsense and you know that.

But I would still recommend this for people who are around 165cm, even though you suffer a lot, being average feels really nice and with some Nike Air-Max, phuuu, you will feel awesome. And this is coming from a guy who had probably one of the "easiest" LL you can imagine, no complications, a really really good doc, support from my whole family and friends, I did LL at my home and many many more positive things most of the people who do LL didn't have the pleasure to have. But this is just my advice, do what you want with this.

Maybe I'll be back another time. Good luck and enjoy your life guys

[crimsontide]

I agree with 123

It's definitely worth it, if you're as tall as I was..

I would not think about ll at my current height

[Uppland]

Alright thanks for the answers and I can definitely relate to height-neurosis being a mental thing -I used to feel just great about myself as well.

Crimsontide are you saying that it is mostly individual and some people have problems and some people don't? Are there some things that can help your recovery and are there complications that can arise later after the surgery?

123 what doctor did you go to and do you have any tips for people that haven't done the operation yet?

[Outgrown]

It comes out of two ways - either you're cured or crippled.

Flip a coin