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[ForcedPuberty]

what are the long term efects of wires going through the muscles for 7 months?

although they try to avoid it, it is my understanding that the wires go through the muscles in the tibia to a small degree.

for femur the monorail wires go through some small muscles and avoid the quadriceps.

what effect will this have on the function of the muscle?

[ItsMyLife]

good question pls find out and let me know thanks bro

[Uppland]

I don't know but it doesn't seem to be much of a concern -at least I haven't heard anything such. Stretching tissue and misaligning bones seem to be the real crux.

[Taller]

ForcedPuberty, are you doing LL or did you do it already? Are you using monorails on your tibiae or your femurs?


How has your experience been so far?

[ItsMyLife]

I don't know but it doesn't seem to be much of a concern -at least I haven't heard anything such. Stretching tissue and misaligning bones seem to be the real crux.

they say misalignment can only be determined after a few cm of distraction?

[Medium Drink Of Water]

This belongs in the off topic section, since doctors don't put wires through muscles in LL.

[ItsMyLife]

haaa MDOW really??? thats great man... yea its true we shd avoid the muscles as the nerves are there also!!

[Smallguy]

Unless this is a new LL procedure, I also never heard of any wire going through the muscle for 7 months. Sounds like a good idea for some gruesome halloween movie.

If you meant the pin of the external frame going through the flesh, then sure. That's true. It's best to ask the doctor that because where they place the pin will make a difference. The pinsite on the ankle and beside the knee should only leave scars, which can be corrected  by laser resurfacing or using retina cream. However, if the pin is placed where the muscle contract like in the middle of the shin, this will leave a hallow spot. The more you lengthen the greater the hallow spot. And it will show once you contact the muscle in this area as a lump. But my PT here said he saw this in soccer players who got kicked in the shin and it could be corrected by building up muscle there.  I've been doing some exercises so my lump is now only the size of the tip of the finger. whereas it was almost the length of half of my finger when I came back.  I only have experience with external in the tibias.

Because of the large volume of muscle wrapping around your thigh, it is not a good idea to do external with thigh. Small amount of lengthening should be okay but it would be catastrophic to allow the pin to severe a large gap in your thigh. As the result, I would only do internal for femur because I want to lengthen 6-7cm. That would put me over 180cm and I would be terribly happy.

[ForcedPuberty]

I think small guy answered it best.

so people doing external femur should expect a small indent? this is sad news. what is the cause for this indent?

also MDOF I know you might not believe it yet because of the many reports and doctors who state that the wires/pin go around the muscles. even the doctors where I am at told me it goes through the fascia and they move the muscles aside. but when I spoke to the actual surgeon I was told it goes through the muscle.

even in diaries where people said that the doctor goes through the fassia and not through the muscle for femur, I found out by later contacting the doctor that it is not true and that they infact do go through muscles just not the quads.

now don't just take my word for it and my doctors word. AND BELIEVE ME I HOPE I AM WRONG IN REGARDS TO TIBIA.

however here is a pubmed for tibia outlining the rules for how to go through the muscle on the operating table. why would such a rule exist.?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2322836/


also go to page 6 on this page if you don't believe me.

http://www.smith-nephew.com/global/assets/pdf/products/surgical/ilizarov_ttc_st.pdf

it shows ALL the possible insertion points. and is accompanied by this post.

Safe zones in the tibia and foot
Care must be taken to avoid neurovascular
structures and intraarticular penetration. Figure 3
and Figure 4 show suggested safe pin and wire
pathways that allow for minimal transfixion of
muscle compartments and neurovascular
structures of the lower leg, ankle and foot.

for a long time I to thought that they somehow magically moved the muscle aside and went through the fascia or something,

can someone ask paley if it is true that they go through the muscles.

I cant remember what paley emailed my friend, but he might have stated that monorail was in fact better for tibia because of the wires /pins going through muscle and soft tissue.

the part I am hazy on is whether paley said muscles and soft tissue or just soft tissue. it was not an email to me. I will ask my friend. but I think he said muscles and soft tissue.

[ForcedPuberty]

ps wires/pins are the same thing as far as I know.

Wikipedia:

The device is a specialized form of external fixator, a circular fixator, modular in construction. Stainless steel (or titanium) rings are fixed to the bone via stainless heavy-gauge wire (called "pins" or Kirschner wires). The rings are connected to each other with threaded rods attached through adjustable nuts. The circular construction and tensioned wires of the Ilizarov apparatus provide far more structural support than the traditional monolateral fixator system. This allows early weightbearing.

ps 7 months is the approximate time frame for monorails pure external.

now that I have shown the plausibility for the fact that this is real for MDOW. I would like to go back to discussing the side effects for having metal pierce your muscles for such a long duration.

[ForcedPuberty]

my main concerns that I want to find out about.

particularly for femur.

is: will the metal piercing the muscles (all be it the small muscles near the quad) destroy function fo those muscles. and what will they look like after.

so basically function of the muscle.
and basically how the leg will look aesthetically after.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

I stand corrected.  To answer your question, there seem to be no side effects.  I didn't even know they had pierced my muscles until now.

[ForcedPuberty]

hmmm I worry because monorail pins are much larger. hopefully I wont be left with a massive indent or lump.

however thank you MDOW, I am hoping that the muscles will just re attach after the wire is removed and the leg will look normal after external femur.

[ReadRothbard]

None.

[Medium Drink Of Water]

hmmm I worry because monorail pins are much larger. hopefully I wont be left with a massive indent or lump.

however thank you MDOW, I am hoping that the muscles will just re attach after the wire is removed and the leg will look normal after external femur.

Monorail pins don't go all the way through your leg, so they can miss the muscle completely.

[ForcedPuberty]

I completely agree MDOW (monorail for tibias wont go through muscles).

but unfortunately monorail for femur is another story as it goes through the muscle.

[ReadRothbard]

Oh, I assumed we were talking about just tibias. Yeah, external femurs are pretty rough.

[ForcedPuberty]

well its true I was referring to both tibia and femur.

my focus is on femur. however due to lack of willing participants for external femur I have no choice but to view the data on tibia patients.

I expect that if anything on a small level occurs with tibia patients (for pins going through the muscle) then the same effect will be exacerbated in femur patients (with pins going through the muscle).

small gy already explained that he has an indent and bump. if this happens because of pins through the muscle it might be a good indication of what to expect. I don't know. but I am not sure how else to predict what will happen.

[Smallguy]

None.

Jesus... how can you say "none" so easily? (((You're also the same guy who advised me to lift weight to cure my wrinkle))... Minimally, what about scarring? You know the external frames are supported by pins inserting through the flesh. So as your legs get lengthened, the position of the pins changes. This create a tear through the skin. Asians and black tend to suffer worst from hyper pigmentation - that means the colour of your scar is of a different colour from the pigment of your skin. But European tend to recover from scarring quite well.

ForcedPuberty

Only on my left leg, I have a lump where the pinsite used to be. And it can be seen when I contract the skin muscle. But my right leg is all fine, just suffer from scaring. So this could be a hit or miss. That's why I said where the doctor place the pin will make a difference. To provide additional support for the external frame, some doctors place the pins through the shin, in addition to the ankles and the side of the knee. However, some later patients where I had it done, only have pins through the knee and ankles, and not the shin. So they can avoid this problem altogether and have fewer scars.

I also thought about using external for femur. But after witnessing it first-hand and thinking about it logically, I refrain from proceeding with the idea even if I can save a ton of money from doing so. Your lower legs have the knee, the ankles and the whole inner region of the tibias where muscles are not pervasive and where the pin can be inserted to provide support for the external frame. (Just feel your shin bone then you know what I'm talking about.) This is not the case with the thigh, which is wrapped by a thick layer of muscle. To insert the pin through thigh you, the doctor needs to be very sensitive where he places the pin, otherwise, the patient will suffer excruciating pain. The pin will be basically be ripping through the muscle of your thigh the more you lengthen. That's why I think lengthening a small amount should be okay. But lengthening a large, the patient should prepared to bring with him a lot of pain killer. You can ask Crazy 6, and he will advise you not to do it. It was the worst moment of his life. Therefore, internal for the femur is the way to go (>4cm).

What is your background and how much do you plan on lengthening?

[ReadRothbard]

I said that you might feel younger from lifting weights due to improved circulation, more muscle mass, etc.

Oh, and scarring isn't exactly what I assumed counted as a long term effect. Scars go away eventually, anyways.

[Smallguy]

Stronglifts 5x5, or any type of intensive weight training, will help improve blood circulation, heart health, bone health, etc. which in turn will give you a more youthful looking face.

Dude, you said "will." But that's alright. It's hard to tell when someone is trying sarcastic and funny and when they are being real. My problem is real though.

Scars go away eventually? Then I guess people wouldn't need laser or scar removal surgery. And no LL patients should worry about scarring because they go away eventually and this is one of the questions that we shouldn't care to ask the doctor about. Yep.... (being sarcastic).

[ForcedPuberty]

yea my doctor said the MAX! safe level for femur external is 5cm.

is it possible to upload a photo? showing the indent and the bump?

thank you.

[ReadRothbard]

I said that they might get rid of wrinkles, but weight lifting will give you a more youthful face. Exercise helps those who do it look younger as a whole.

[Smallguy]

small gy already explained that he has an indent and bump. if this happens because of pins through the muscle it might be a good indication of what to expect. I don't know. but I am not sure how else to predict what will happen.

Sure, I'm going to vacation next week and can send you a photo then.

I said that they might get rid of wrinkles, but weight lifting will give you a more youthful face. Exercise helps those who do it look younger as a whole.

No worries.. just trying to pull your leg 

[Outgrown]

No worries.. just trying to pull your leg 

I betz you did that on purpose.