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Author Topic: Lasting joint problem after LL  (Read 8983 times)

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JP

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Lasting joint problem after LL
« on: December 19, 2014, 08:24:07 AM »

Hello All


I want do femur lengtheing but is this a good reason not to do internal femur lengthening ?

The effect on mechanical axis deviation of femoral lengthing with an intramedullary telescopic nail http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22933497



Here’s what Rainy said on old forum :

Long after healing from internal femur lengthening, I have cracking joints that get stuch with Knee/hip movement. Although stretching helped muscles some, but ligaments remain short. From what I’m feeling, femurs have shifted from their natural position in the joints and get struch with movement. Femurs are pushed forward on top of tibia in the knees and hurt when trying to bend them. Femur head in hips feel and sound like pop in and out of socket. Of course not completely out, but slightly off.  Enough for major problems in the future.. Premature arthritis… I lengthened within the “safe limit”. I don’t think there is such a thing as guaranteed safe limit for over 1 cm. Any amount of lengthening is very unnatural and hit or miss how much your body can adapt..
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ReadRothbard

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2014, 08:34:35 AM »

Who did he lengthen with?
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“If you're afraid - don't do it, - if you're doing it - don't be afraid!” ― Genghis Khan

172 cm in the morning (67.8"); 170 cm (67”) at night; Sitting Height: 96 cm (37.8”); Goal: 184.5 cm (6'0.7"); Ultimate Goal: 192 cm (6’3.5) morning height, 190 cm (6’3) “night” height
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TomD

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2014, 09:14:37 AM »

Wow. Thats a tough thing. I hope your body heals eventually.  :-[

I really hope that is the exception to the rule.
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JP

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 09:32:54 AM »

Who did he lengthen with?

I don't know who, but it seems ANY internal Femur lengthening method will cause the femurs to shift, I believe you can’t avoid this problem and this the why Rainy said that it would lead to premature arthritis.
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JP

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 09:36:43 AM »


I really hope that is the exception to the rule.

I m afraid this is not.
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Smallguy

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2014, 09:47:51 AM »

Hey Drew, thanks for the scary detail. Oooohhh, I'm so scared now.

In this case, it's more important to know which doctor he has done his LL so we know to avoid his doc than to opt out of this procedure because of just one exception. If you want to lengthen femur, internal is the only way to go. The femur is not like the tibias. There is just too many tissues to have the metal frames ripping through your muscle.

Like I mention before. Everyone is different and has various level for gore, blood and pain. If I was him, I would go back to the doctor immediately to fix this problem. Once it is fixed, I would fly back home and hit the gym. Start out slowly by cycling for 1-2 hours per day. Once your bone is ready, do 100 squats per day with increasing weights. 100 leg press, 100 hamstrings, 100 death lift followed by some rigorous stretching exercises - 3 days in a row follow by one day rest. I'll be taking supplements which speed up recovery like various anti-oxidant, vitamins, greens, and calcium tablets. Of course, not everyone has the time nor the willpower to do this. Maybe that's why they fail.
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I live in the American Gardens Building on W. 81st Street on the 11th floor. My name is Patrick Bateman. I'm 27 years old. I believe in taking care of myself and a balanced diet and rigorous exercise routine.

JP

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2014, 10:11:50 AM »

Hey Drew, thanks for the scary detail. Oooohhh, I'm so scared now.

Hi

 I think internal femur lengtheing in general has dangerous potential. If lengthen 6 cm i will have a 6mm shift and years later i might develop arthritis. Do you think 6mm is enough to cause arthritis?

"In a normally aligned limb, intramedullary lengthening along the anatomical axis of the femur results in a lateral shift of the mechanical axis by approximately 1 mm for each 1 cm of lengthening."
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JP

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2014, 10:15:16 AM »


In this case, it's more important to know which doctor he has done his LL so we know to avoid his doc than to opt out of this procedure because of just one exception.

Rainy :

No doctor can prevent tightening of soft tissue as you lengthen. There was someone who said he got knee/hip arthritis years after lengthening with Paley
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programdude

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2014, 10:43:24 AM »

Paley did claim arthritis wouldn't occur regardless of amount lengthened to my face, so something to the contrary of that would be a disappointment and very misleading. Hoping its not the eventuality.
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Dr. Paley Patient- Surgery completed successfully on July 22nd
My Diary for those who want a real play by play to know what to expect:http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=733.0

Starting height: 5 8
End Height-:5 11 +

ForcedPuberty

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2014, 12:18:20 PM »

Quote
Rainy :

No doctor can prevent tightening of soft tissue as you lengthen. There was someone who said he got knee/hip arthritis years after lengthening with Paley

Quote
Paley did claim arthritis wouldn't occur regardless of amount lengthened to my face, so something to the contrary of that would be a disappointment and very misleading.

surprise surprise guys. doctors lie. !

also guys I wonder is this kind of biomechanical problem is the same reason why greekster can not run any more. ?
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Nope, 20cm is just nope.

"because FP's the hero LL Forum deserves, but not the one is needs right now. So we'll hunt him, because he can take it. because hes not the hero. He's a silent gardian, watchfull protector. The Dark Knight."

ForcedPuberty

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2014, 12:27:08 PM »

how much did rainy lengthen????????

and does external affect mechanical axis?

can anyone explain in more detail why the internal nail affects the mechanical axis?
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Nope, 20cm is just nope.

"because FP's the hero LL Forum deserves, but not the one is needs right now. So we'll hunt him, because he can take it. because hes not the hero. He's a silent gardian, watchfull protector. The Dark Knight."

chrisperez

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2014, 02:05:34 PM »

Paley did claim arthritis wouldn't occur regardless of amount lengthened to my face, so something to the contrary of that would be a disappointment and very misleading. Hoping its not the eventuality.

Paley is saleman. He lies all time.
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ReadRothbard

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2014, 07:33:18 PM »

Paley is saleman. He lies all time.

Why do you say that?
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“If you're afraid - don't do it, - if you're doing it - don't be afraid!” ― Genghis Khan

172 cm in the morning (67.8"); 170 cm (67”) at night; Sitting Height: 96 cm (37.8”); Goal: 184.5 cm (6'0.7"); Ultimate Goal: 192 cm (6’3.5) morning height, 190 cm (6’3) “night” height
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programdude

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2014, 11:19:20 PM »

Paley is saleman. He lies all time.
I haven't really seen outright lies from him. Business tactics sure, but not real lies or anything of that caliber.

Time will tell. I know many people personally who got this done around the time as me so I'll monitor and stay in touch with everyone and keep the community informed when/if I and any of them develop issues. I am not prepared to break out the pitchforks though since there isn't much info yet.
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Dr. Paley Patient- Surgery completed successfully on July 22nd
My Diary for those who want a real play by play to know what to expect:http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=733.0

Starting height: 5 8
End Height-:5 11 +

Medium Drink Of Water

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2014, 11:55:27 PM »

1mm per cm doesn't sound like a lot.  But maybe it is if you're walking around like that long term.
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Uppland

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2014, 02:19:44 AM »

This is scary and exactly the kind of thing I don't want to hear but thank you for posting.

What is the time frame to develop issues? Surely there must be femur patients that can tell if this is common or not.

Hey Drew, thanks for the scary detail. Oooohhh, I'm so scared now.

In this case, it's more important to know which doctor he has done his LL so we know to avoid his doc than to opt out of this procedure because of just one exception. If you want to lengthen femur, internal is the only way to go. The femur is not like the tibias. There is just too many tissues to have the metal frames ripping through your muscle.

Like I mention before. Everyone is different and has various level for gore, blood and pain. If I was him, I would go back to the doctor immediately to fix this problem. Once it is fixed, I would fly back home and hit the gym. Start out slowly by cycling for 1-2 hours per day. Once your bone is ready, do 100 squats per day with increasing weights. 100 leg press, 100 hamstrings, 100 death lift followed by some rigorous stretching exercises - 3 days in a row follow by one day rest. I'll be taking supplements which speed up recovery like various anti-oxidant, vitamins, greens, and calcium tablets. Of course, not everyone has the time nor the willpower to do this. Maybe that's why they fail.

How are you doing smallguy, what kind of recovery do you feel you will reach percentage wise?
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programdude

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2014, 02:27:58 AM »

^ Thats the reason I don't think it can be that common. There would be quite a few pretty angry reports. Thats assuming it doesn't take ages to develop.
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Dr. Paley Patient- Surgery completed successfully on July 22nd
My Diary for those who want a real play by play to know what to expect:http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=733.0

Starting height: 5 8
End Height-:5 11 +

Uppland

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2014, 02:32:57 AM »

^ Thats the reason I don't think it can be that common. There would be quite a few pretty angry reports. Thats assuming it doesn't take ages to develop.

I really hope you're right. it would be unacceptable to me if I had to live with hindering issues all my life post-surgery. I'd like to know thses things beforehand so that I can either give up or go for it. The only thing that could make me scrap my LL-plans are knowing that it would ruin my body for the rest of my life afterwards -all I wanna do is soldier through it and then forget.
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programdude

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2014, 02:38:49 AM »

The way I see it, is most likely nothing could happen for 15-20 years with any frequency based off lack of reports, if it happens at all.

Again, I think if this were a common thing that the forums would be packed with quite a few furious people.
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Dr. Paley Patient- Surgery completed successfully on July 22nd
My Diary for those who want a real play by play to know what to expect:http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=733.0

Starting height: 5 8
End Height-:5 11 +

Smallguy

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2014, 05:32:59 AM »

This is scary and exactly the kind of thing I don't want to hear but thank you for posting.

What is the time frame to develop issues? Surely there must be femur patients that can tell if this is common or not.

How are you doing smallguy, what kind of recovery do you feel you will reach percentage wise?

Hey, that's right. This surgery is not like a simple walk in the park. You have to ask yourself whether the pain, time and risk of disability is worth the payoff. For a tall guy, what is the payoff? Even for short people, few I know, would undergo this surgery. The risk is too great to worth the payoff. For me, I was a little bit crazy and wasn't happy with my life. Here is the story.

Two years ago, I was studying for the CPA, which is the equivalent for the master degree for accounting in my country. I wasn't bothered as much for my height even though I was the shortest person in my company. My company was predominately white and the average height was 5'11 and above. But one day, there was this Asian man of 5'6, bald-headed and middle-age who was doing some temp at my company. He was also a CPA. But because we were the only two asians there, he reflected what I would be like in 20 years. I don't want to be like that. Sorry, he was smart and probably make a ton of money. But I don't want to be like that. That's why the next day, I booked a ticket and decided to undergo LL with the cheapest doctor at that time. All my money was borrowed. I was in debt and broke but it was the best decision I made in my life. The confident boost from 3 inches taller from the starting height of 5'6 is tremendous. My only advice is don't borrow money for LL. Being in debt is worst than being short.

3 inches increase for 5'6 man is huge. He went from being short to being average. And it's even greater for a man who is 5'0 who goes from being a midget to being short. But 3 inches for a guy who is 5'11... then what? He's tall and he becomes taller? The payoff is miniscule. And not worth the risk. Some short people would rather die than being short. But you can't say that for tall people? Would a tall guy risk dying to become taller? That's lame.

Okay.. back to the question about recovery. A good analogy is that if you lengthen 8cm, your agility is basically reduced by 50%. You can perform simple exercises to get you back on your feet again. But to reach 100% like pre-LL, you can't do that with just simple running, stairs or walking. You need to push yourself extremely hard. So my answer is Yes. It's doable. But not many people are willing to put the effort to do 300b and above leg presses, jumping ropes, and squats until they literally kill their legs 3-5 times per week for at least 2 hours per day.

Just imagine that your doctor helps you to perform the initial surgery. He will place the rod and appliances in your leg. And he will monitor you through your lengthening phase. But once that is done and over with, you are literally on your own for recovery. Unless you do some intense exercises everyday, chances are, you will have lost a lot of muscle during your lengthening phase. And what you do after that depends on you. Will you go to the gym and work to get back your 50% deficit or muscle lost, or you just sit around and wait for recovery to come back to you? Are you the type of person who stops trying to push your legs when your muscle become sore or are you the type of person who pushes on and on despite the pain and ache?

The thinking should be not what is the optimum lengthen, 4cm or 6.5cm, etc. It should be how much deficit you are willing to take. The more you lengthen, the more deficit you will have. A person who lengthen 8cm will come back with a greater deficit than if he was to lengthen just 5cm. A person who does 10cm but has the willpower to work his legs to death has better odds of recovering 100% than a person who does 5cm but doesn't has the willpower to exercise. Full recovery is achievable if he has the willpower to take back those deficit by working on his legs.

Well for me... I'm not really motivated as my speech. I have recovered 1 year ago. Became the fastest runner and most endurance runner at my gym due to my concentration on cardio exercises. But just recently I realized the benefit of resistant training and have switched to weight lifting instead. No pain. No complications. Life is just normal as hell. Just looking forward to my next femur lengthening.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 07:04:01 AM by Smallguy »
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I live in the American Gardens Building on W. 81st Street on the 11th floor. My name is Patrick Bateman. I'm 27 years old. I believe in taking care of myself and a balanced diet and rigorous exercise routine.

ReadRothbard

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2014, 07:20:44 AM »

Hey, that's right. This surgery is not like a simple walk in the park. You have to ask yourself whether the pain, time and risk of disability is worth the payoff. For a tall guy, what is the payoff? Even for short people, few I know, would undergo this surgery. The risk is too great to worth the payoff. For me, I was a little bit crazy and wasn't happy with my life. Here is the story.

Two years ago, I was studying for the CPA, which is the equivalent for the master degree for accounting in my country. I wasn't bothered as much for my height even though I was the shortest person in my company. My company was predominately white and the average height was 5'11 and above. But one day, there was this Asian man of 5'6, bald-headed and middle-age who was doing some temp at my company. He was also a CPA. But because we were the only two asians there, he reflected what I would be like in 20 years. I don't want to be like that. Sorry, he was smart and probably make a ton of money. But I don't want to be like that. That's why the next day, I booked a ticket and decided to undergo LL with the cheapest doctor at that time. All my money was borrowed. I was in debt and broke but it was the best decision I made in my life. The confident boost from 3 inches taller from the starting height of 5'6 is tremendous. My only advice is don't borrow money for LL. Being in debt is worst than being short.

3 inches increase for 5'6 man is huge. He went from being short to being average. And it's even greater for a man who is 5'0 who goes from being a midget to being short. But 3 inches for a guy who is 5'11... then what? He's tall and he becomes taller? The payoff is miniscule. And not worth the risk. Some short people would rather die than being short. But you can't say that for tall people? Would a tall guy risk dying to become taller? That's lame.

Okay.. back to the question about recovery. A good analogy is that if you lengthen 8cm, your agility is basically reduced by 50%. You can perform simple exercises to get you back on your feet again. But to reach 100% like pre-LL, you can't do that with just simple running, stairs or walking. You need to push yourself extremely hard. So my answer is Yes. It's doable. But not many people are willing to put the effort to do 300b and above leg presses, jumping ropes, and squats until they literally kill their legs 3-5 times per week for at least 2 hours per day.

Just imagine that your doctor helps you to perform the initial surgery. He will place the rod and appliances in your leg. And he will monitor you through your lengthening phase. But once that is done and over with, you are literally on your own for recovery. Unless you do some intense exercises everyday, chances are, you will have lost a lot of muscle during your lengthening phase. And what you do after that depends on you. Will you go to the gym and work to get back your 50% deficit or muscle lost, or you just sit around and wait for recovery to come back to you? Are you the type of person who stops trying to push your legs when your muscle become sore or are you the type of person who pushes on and on despite the pain and ache?

The thinking should be not what is the optimum lengthen, 4cm or 6.5cm, etc. It should be how much deficit you are willing to take. The more you lengthen, the more deficit you will have. A person who lengthen 8cm will come back with a greater deficit than if he was to lengthen just 5cm. A person who does 10cm but has the willpower to work his legs to death has better odds of recovering 100% than a person who does 5cm but doesn't has the willpower to exercise. Full recovery is achievable if he has the willpower to take back those deficit by working on his legs.

Well for me... I'm not really motivated as my speech. I have recovered 1 year ago. Became the fastest runner and most endurance runner at my gym due to my concentration on cardio exercises. But just recently I realized the benefit of resistant training and have switched to weight lifting instead. No pain. No complications. Life is just normal as hell. Just looking forward to my next femur lengthening.

Good to know. Thank you. I'm the type to fight tooth and nail for muscle mass, strength, and athletic ability.
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“If you're afraid - don't do it, - if you're doing it - don't be afraid!” ― Genghis Khan

172 cm in the morning (67.8"); 170 cm (67”) at night; Sitting Height: 96 cm (37.8”); Goal: 184.5 cm (6'0.7"); Ultimate Goal: 192 cm (6’3.5) morning height, 190 cm (6’3) “night” height
Future space tycoon

goodlucktomylegs

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2014, 07:27:16 AM »



3 inches increase for 5'6 man is huge. He went from being short to being average. And it's even greater for a man who is 5'0 who goes from being a midget to being short. But 3 inches for a guy who is 5'11... then what? He's tall and he becomes taller? The payoff is miniscule. And not worth the risk. Some short people would rather die than being short. But you can't say that for tall people? Would a tall guy risk dying to become taller? That's lame.




Well for me... I'm not really motivated as my speech. I have recovered 1 year ago. Became the fastest runner and most endurance runner at my gym due to my concentration on cardio exercises. But just recently I realized the benefit of resistant training and have switched to weight lifting instead. No pain. No complications. Life is just normal as hell. Just looking forward to my next femur lengthening.
As you said ,Why you want to be taller ,now you are average  tall(177), you arent short any more.
And my friend ,How old are you?
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alps

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2014, 07:50:35 AM »

Time will tell. I know many people personally who got this done around the time as me so I'll monitor and stay in touch with everyone and keep the community informed when/if I and any of them develop issues.
Thanks a lot dude!
I'd really appreciate that.
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programdude

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2014, 07:58:52 AM »

Thanks a lot dude!
I'd really appreciate that.
Well, keep in mind that unless something goes VERY wrong I wouldn't expect anything to crop up for years regardless.
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Dr. Paley Patient- Surgery completed successfully on July 22nd
My Diary for those who want a real play by play to know what to expect:http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=733.0

Starting height: 5 8
End Height-:5 11 +

alps

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2014, 08:53:41 AM »

Well, keep in mind that unless something goes VERY wrong I wouldn't expect anything to crop up for years regardless.
Do surgeons publish true statistical data (which they are legally bound to) ?
That would be really awesome.
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Uppland

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Re: Lasting joint problem after LL
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2014, 02:58:23 PM »

@Smallguy
In your experience is intense gym workouts the only thing that's necessary or will I need some kind of special training from a specialist?

If it's only a case of rebuilding my muscles I think that's doable, remaining with a personal trainer for years however -that's a big con in my book. Also would you say there is a point when your legs are repaired, or will this intense routine have to be a part of my life after the surgery lest I face severly reduced athletic ability?

The ideal scenario for me would be one or two challenging (but doable) years after which I would be back to my old self for all intense and purposes. Just moving on with my life and leaving all this just an unpleasant memory. Is this unrealistic?
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