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[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

we don't give a crap about 10 billion people who had LL if they did not write a diary.

out of all the diaries we have the nail failed 50% of the time, these people did not start writing a diary before the nail collapsed or because the nail collapsed: they started writing the diary before the nail collapsed so the statistics are accurate. out of X number of diaries 50% had a nail that was not strong enough.


no one is saying you cant successfully do LL with bets, we are saying his nail is  .
don't try and change this into an emotional argument based on feelings.

when a nail fails in 50% of the diaries, I don't give a crap if the gy is a nice man or cares about his patients, its still a crap nail.

and the bull   about bets not spending hours upon hours on a forum............  cut the bull  , this is about bets not answering a simple question which involves 2 numbers for the 11mm and 13mm nail and their weight bearing capability. it takes 2 seconds but he refused to answer this question to every patient. that makes him a deceiver because he does not want to answer it. it has nothing to do with "spending thousands of hours on a forum". don't try to manipulate what is really going on here.

the doctor is not the problem. the device is. and I bet the doctor knows his device has a high fail rate so he refuses to answer the question.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

edit

the second line should have read as:

out of all the diaries we have the nail failed 50% of the time, these people did not start writing a diary after the nail collapsed or because the nail

[gettingtaller]

we don't give a crap about 10 billion people who had LL if they did not write a diary.

out of all the diaries we have the nail failed 50% of the time, these people did not start writing a diary before the nail collapsed or because the nail collapsed: they started writing the diary before the nail collapsed so the statistics are accurate. out of X number of diaries 50% had a nail that was not strong enough.


no one is saying you cant successfully do LL with bets, we are saying his nail is s**t.
don't try and change this into an emotional argument based on feelings.

when a nail fails in 50% of the diaries, I don't give a crap if the gy is a nice man or cares about his patients, its still a crap nail.

and the bull s**t about bets not spending hours upon hours on a forum............  cut the bull s**t, this is about bets not answering a simple question which involves 2 numbers for the 11mm and 13mm nail and their weight bearing capability. it takes 2 seconds but he refused to answer this question to every patient. that makes him a deceiver because he does not want to answer it. it has nothing to do with "spending thousands of hours on a forum". don't try to manipulate what is really going on here.

the doctor is not the problem. the device is. and I bet the doctor knows his device has a high fail rate so he refuses to answer the question.

It is very naive not to "give a crap" (as you say) about people that didn't write diaries. If you base your life decisions on evidence that is known to be unrepresentative of the broader population (in your example, 10 billion) then that's your choice lol. If one of my employees took that approach to business I would fire them.

There is an emotional angle to my comments, of course.  Surgery is not an entirely scientific process. The human body is unpredictable - some people die form H1N1 and others don't. A big part of LL is all about emotions and your state of my mind and thus a doctor who understands this and keep you sane through the process is actually contributing to improved chances of a good recovery. If anything, I would say your reaction is much more emotional than the comments I made ;-)

Your view that "the nail is  " is you opinion - this is fine, get a nail from Guichet or elsewhere. All I can say is that today I walked from one meeting to another in central London, without crutches, without full consolidation and I feel great. I've been doing this for a few weeks, as have my co-patients who are recovering with me. All good. If my nails are   to others, well that's cool, because they do the job for me and my co-patients.

Regarding the numbers (11 vs 13mm) - I can't speak for Betz. Maybe he is being too cautious in discussing the specifics. All I can say is that in my business we don't discuss facts in public forums when the recipients of that information appear hostile or could use that information against you - rightly or wrongly. Actually, as I think about it, there is no area of medicine or surgery where a responsible surgeon would publicly commit to anything given that every individual is so truly and utterly different.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

well let me first state that your education in statistical analysis is quite lacking. hopefully in time you can see the error in your ability to comprehend why we do not need a sample size of 10 billion studies to determine a hypothesis that the bets nail is not reliable.

you are obviously bias. you love bets because your particular nail did not break. that is fine I am glad you had a good outcome unlike many others. so you are quite welcome to defend him in this unrational manner.

H1N1 was a scam from the beginning. (yes I am qualified to say that) but that is another story.

Regarding the numbers (11 vs 13mm) it is quite clear that because of your emotional attachment for bets due to having successfully changed your life for the better, that you will rationalize anything in order to make him appear as a good man. when in fact the reason people are disgruntled is because when he was asked nicely many time over by many people he refused to answer truthfully.

being dishonest and withholding information tends to make people disgruntled. especially when you are told a nail is weight bearing when it is NOT in 50% of patients.

[galaxy1]

Geez, if Betz is going to take one's hard earned money, he is obligated to answer all pertinent questions on both of his 'Betz Nails' during the consultation, and even be prepared to back up his answers.

[GPS]

Interesting reading. I'm a Betz patient in recovery. Some of you will question my identity but if you want to, you can confirm with blackbear and lucki (both of whom have diaries) that I am who I say I am as I have met them both on multiple occasions.

I think it's worth saying that I've met more Betz patients in-person than the number of diaries that you refer to. I met them in the UK (where I live) and I also met them at various stages of recovery during my own consultation, surgery and recovery. I stay in regular contact with a lot of them as we find each other to be a great sources of information and support for when we have questions. I can say that whilst one or two are struggling with recovery, none have serious issues. When I say "struggle", I just mean that their bodies are slower to recover than some of the others - that's just life.

It is true that every patient is different. Some patients tolerate the challenges and recover fast, others really really struggle. From my personal perspective, I had surgery in Feb, stayed on crutches until June and have been walking without them up until now.  My x-rays look great, my consolidation is on-track and (touch wood), I don't have any nail or screw issues.  I have followed Dr Betz and Nader's advice very closely and I'm pleased to say that my recovery is good.  I do of course have some issues - my legs feel very tight, I still have some numbness on my thighs but on the whole I can walk in a way that is getting very close to normal (my muscles are still weak, as well as tight).  Unlike other patients, I am lucky enough to also have a LL surgeon here in the UK that tracks and monitors me. I did this because I wanted a second surgeon taking care of me just in case (what if Dr Betz gets hit by a bus - God forbid). I can say that my UK surgeon has confirmed that there are absolutely no issues so far with my recovery or condition.

I think when people write diaries, one should understand that they're writing at times when they may be experiencing pain. They may be experiencing emotional issues related to their surgery and condition, and these might impact what they write and how they write.  Diaries are not a scientific representation of how these patients traversed their LL journeys - no matter how much you try to apply statistics to them. Most patients DO NOT write diaries - they quietly do the surgery and just get on with their lives. No dramas, no issues. When people write about bad bone consolidation, it's not the Doctor's fault. When an open wound gets infected it's just a bit of bad luck, could happen to anyone - in MasterHY's case, it was dealt with quickly anyway.  When they disappear there is not catastrophic issue, they usually have lives outside of forums etc. 

Honestly, there is so much misinformation here. It bothers me that people are getting such a negative view of Dr Betz when my experience (and my patient friends' experiences) have been mostly positive. 

Some personal facts:

1. I asked if I needed titaniums (people here argue that Betz tries to sell you these as an expensive extra). He could have said "YES", but he actually said "NO". He told me that my consolidation was good and there was no need for me to pay the extra money. If he said yes, then I would have paid for them - Dr Betz knows what I do for a living and he knows my financial position - it would not be hard for me to pay for the titaniums.

2. I had the same complication twice. My bone healing was very fast on my left leg and my nail became very hard to click. On both occasions I traveled to Germany, I got booked into hospital, anesthetized and  clicked.  In both instances, it cost Dr Betz money to rent out the anesthetic doctor, nurses, recovery room and of course his time.  He could easily have asked me for money and I would have paid but he did not. In both instances he absorbed the cost without needing to. What can I say? Is this the behavior of a scammer? Make your own decision, but my view is that these are the actions of a good man.

3. On the second occasion (above), Dr Betz was on vacation. He cut his trip short to see me as I had a meeting on Monday and could only see him on Saturday. He did this for my convenience and I am very grateful.

4. While in Germany, Dr Betz was available every day, including Saturday and Sunday. He could choose not to be, but he actually cares about his patients and their progress and takes a very real interest in them. One of the reasons he's hard to reach for consultation is because he's so busy with his patients.

5. His attention to detail is crazy.  If you look at another famous patients diary, you will see an x-ray where the screw sticks out a whole cm into the flesh.  This was not a betz patient. Betz insists on measuring every screw for each patient and manufactures it to size before using it - did you know that? Minimises irritation and risk. I dont' want to mention names, but another famous surgeon created some issues for another patient with the way he was placing screws.

Guys. If you want to speak to a current patient, feel free to meet me in a major UK city (London, Birmingham or Manchester). I'm happy to share my experiences, advice and concerns. Just send me a personal message.  If you want to keep slating Dr Betz then go ahead, for everyone else, please just go and see a few surgeons - Betz, Guichet, whoever.  It's not fair to expect Doctors to spend hours on forums  - you don't do this before heart or brain surgery, you meet them not chat on forums so please treat your LL in the same serious way.

Was the famous patient Leechlet and his doctor, Guichet?

[galaxy1]

If it's true that the nail failure rate is as high as 50%, and he is not disclosing this information than he is gambling with peoples time and money. He would be obligated to add a weight limit stipulation for both the 11mm & 13mm nails &b disclose the specs for the nails. If not then he would be an unethical, uncaring, and greedy doctor if he ignores the problem by looking the other way.

On the flip side maybe all the patients who had nail failure were too damn careless all of the time.

[gettingtaller]

On the flip side maybe all the patients who had nail failure were too damn careless all of the time.

I honestly believe there is some truth to this point. I was just personal messaging with a member here and he asked me about consolidation. One of the big no-nos of recovery is drinking alchohol. Booze kills your body's ability to create new bone, but despite the doctor's advice i saw some (mostly younger patients) still knocking back beers like it didn't matter - and then they complain about consolidation problems. Incidentally, I'm 40 so a little older than most LL patients. Add to that, patients that decide to go sky diving (oh yes), clubbing and do water sports (I mention no names!).

I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but I think I'm the first patient to have both the 11mm and the 13mm nails. Betz doesn't like reaming your marrow hole if the 13 doesn't fit (introduces lots of new risks) and so he prefers to insert the 11 in that case.  My 11 has been fine so far. My 13mm leg (right) has been the weaker one throughout and so my left leg has been supporting my right leg ever since I got off crutches; bizarrely therefore my 11mm nail has been supporting my 13m nail :-)

To GROWtalORdieTRYING1: the 10billion patient sample was in reference to your flippant remark about basing all of your conclusions on a tiny number of diaries. There is no need to be offensive every time your fingers touch the keyboard ;-)For what it's worth, I'm a former research scientist so stats were my life (I've since got  a real life by leaving research and running a global business - much more fun!). This also means that I see the weakness in stats - like when you base important life decisions on the murmurings of a small number of people who decided to post their diaries online lol.

[galaxy1]

I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but I think I'm the first patient to have both the 11mm and the 13mm nails. Betz doesn't like reaming your marrow hole if the 13 doesn't fit (introduces lots of new risks) and so he prefers to insert the 11 in that case.  My 11 has been fine so far. My 13mm leg (right) has been the weaker one throughout and so my left leg has been supporting my right leg ever since I got off crutches; bizarrely therefore my 11mm nail has been supporting my 13m nail :-)

That's very interesting. All that reaming for the 13mm nail must have really affected the structural integrity of that leg thereby making it the weaker leg.

[gettingtaller]

That's very interesting. All that reaming for the 13mm nail must have really affected the structural integrity of that leg thereby making it the weaker leg.

That makes sense, except that he didn't ream my right femur - there was already enough space for the 13. He could have reamed my left femur to fit a 13 but decided not to ream and fitted an 11 instead.

[gettingtaller]

Geez, if Betz is going to take one's hard earned money, he is obligated to answer all pertinent questions on both of his 'Betz Nails' during the consultation, and even be prepared to back up his answers.

Actually he does. When you go for a consultation he will spend *A LOT* of time with you.  He will also accept questions by email or SMS after the face to face meeting and will reply to those quickly.  This form of "private" communication he is comfortable with and he will answer your questions about the nails and everything else in written form. it's not like he's trying to lure you into a face to face conversation that he can deny in future - it really isn't like that.  I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that like with other surgeons or professions it's not particularly smart offering "generic" answers on a public forum when there are people that have an objective to destroy your character. In that instance, my advice is always to stay silent.

[Metanoia]

it's not like he's trying to lure you into a face to face conversation that he can deny in future

lol, that's exactly what Dr. Betz does. He tells his patients “ i guarantee that the nail is safe”. But after it breaks and the patient is injured he won't mention his “guarantee” anymore. I strongly advise against trusting Dr. Betz. Anyway he wrote here already exactly what he is telling all his patients during the consultation. So there's no need to pay 400 Euro and go to Germany to get exactly the same sales pitch.
Internal lengthening methods have been hyped a lot, but they are more risky than externals.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

To GROWtalORdieTRYING1: the 10billion patient sample was in reference to your flippant remark about basing all of your conclusions on a tiny number of diaries. There is no need to be offensive every time your fingers touch the keyboard ;-)For what it's worth, I'm a former research scientist so stats were my life (I've since got  a real life by leaving research and running a global business - much more fun!). This also means that I see the weakness in stats - like when you base important life decisions on the murmurings of a small number of people who decided to post their diaries online lol.

statistics can be skewed to mean anything. we both know this.

however we cant go making statements on the statistics based on theoretical data that never existed.
until you present diaries we can only go with the data we have currently.
and the data than then be cross analyzed with the statistics from guich which does not have a 50% nail break rate.
or we can cross analyse the statistics from any other internal nail doctor to get a comparison.

the point being that no matter what excuses you make for bets, or no matter how many statements about how you think it was the patient in every case for their nail breaking the fact remains that this same nail break rate is not present in guich diaries.

so either magically guich only accepts patients that are not going to "destroy the nail themselves" or guich is using a better nail.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

out of curiosity what kinds of things (side effects) can happen when you ream the bone.

[galaxy1]

That makes sense, except that he didn't ream my right femur - there was already enough space for the 13. He could have reamed my left femur to fit a 13 but decided not to ream and fitted an 11 instead.

Okay, you had two different sized bone canals and this enabled you to use different sized Betz Nails , both 11 & 13, and so no reaming was actually done here. I  must have skimmed your post very quickly and didn't catch that.

[gettingtaller]

out of curiosity what kinds of things (side effects) can happen when you ream the bone.

I'm no doc so if anybody else can add anything here then please feel free...

What I can remember, betz told me that the highest risk is fracture from a severely weakened femur. The walls of your femur are thinned down to make space and can crack or splinter if you're unlucky enough. I know Leechlet was really concernd about this as he got reamed for 13s but of course there was no fracture issue in the end. I think betz also said that the small particulates of bones could come loose and cause an aneurism. Aneurisms can be fatal but the chances are low.

[coppkillr]

I am from germany. I wanted to go with betz. But now it seems that it would be no good choice. But What doctor do you recommend?

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

bets is still a doctor who will get you through leg lengthening. he is not a butcher, just make sure you have enough money to pay for a replacement nail if you go through with him.

if you are a millionaire and money means nothing to you then bets is a fine choice.

[coppkillr]

Actually money is no problem. My concern is that i look wired afterwards. I wanted to Do 5cm femur. I also wanted to be able to do the whole thing in 6 months. But there are voices saying it takes years to walk again without others to notice.

[Metanoia]

bets is still a doctor who will get you through leg lengthening. he is not a butcher, just make sure you have enough money to pay for a replacement nail if you go through with him.

if you are a millionaire and money means nothing to you then bets is a fine choice.

That's not true. Dr. Betz has many patients with permanent problems long time after. Why do you make such statements without knowing Dr. Betz?

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

I was making a relative comparison to a butcher.

a butcher would be someone like sarin.

remember the word I inserted to make a comparison. ...................1 more time.......... butcher.

my statement was bets is not a butcher.

however if you want to have a brand new discussion on the statistics of patients with long term serious complications.
then I am all for it. the nail strength is already statistically validated. so if you want to shift gears and discuss bets as a doctor then present your stats.

if you can present a compelling argument then I am more than happy to call bets a butcher.

[Metanoia]

There are 2 main categories of patients who get serious injuries with Dr. Betz:
The first are the femur patients with broken nails. Depending on the circumstances these patients get serious injuries like fractures, nerve damage and muscle injuries. Just use common sense and imagine what can happen in case a nail breaks in a leg which is under mechanical tension from being lengthened. Further the patients can fall down and get additional injuries and fractures. Another risk is the transport of the patient with the broken nail which has sharp edges and easily cuts muscles and nervs.
The second category are all of Dr. Betz's tibia patients. They really are getting butchered. Hardly any of them remains without problems. Compartment syndrome, permanent nerve damage, non-union and bone infection are very common. There is only 1 diary but look what happened to Apotheosis: non-union plus broken nail plus bent fibula screws which will lead to arthritis in the future. In addition he got a bone infection during his arm lengthening. And now, nearly 3 years after his tibia surgery he is still not fully consolidated.

You might call Dr. Betz as you like, but the matter is very serious.

[paco1]

Thank you for your information Mime.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

im not saying your wrong.

far from it.

however that does not constitute proof.

we need total number of diaries and then total number of recorded complications in those diaries to work out a statistic for incidence.

this is only theoretical complications. if we are going to make claims we need to crunch the numbers properly and not use anecdotal evidence.

I am curious. how many diaries do we have with bets on LL Forum? and old forum ?

[coppkillr]

I always thought Betz is the Best doctor to go with. There are so many positive diaries on old forum . I Do Not understand where you get this Bad opinion about betz. I had consultation with him. He Showed some patients. All were well

[ShortyMcShort]

Yes because a doctor whos trying to get your money will show you patients with complications.... Of course he'll show you the good stories, every doctor out there will do the same
What he hasnt shown you are the bent and broken nails that SO MANY of his patients end up getting which then needs to be replaced with titanium nails which cost another $20-30,000, I havent checked the replacement price in quite sometime but thats how much they were before I think.

Originally I was also on the Betz bandwaggon and had him locked in for my first femur surgery until I read more of his patients diaries on old forum  and realised they all had something in common, bent or broken nails.. Im sure Dr Betz knows about this problem but wont fix it, why? Because its another $20-30,000 in his pocket, thats why

If you've had a consultation with Betz and feel he is the one, then go for it, nobody is stopping you, your money your decision. Im sure Betz is a good doctor and isnt a butcher like Dr Sarin, but he seems to lack ethics and morals. Seems more like a businessman(and a shady one at it) than a caring doctor. Me personally Im looking elsewhere atm. Add to that his affiliation and dealings with Sysop/Apo/Anderson or what ever pseudonym he's going with these days and you get the point

[coppkillr]

There are also some without any problems like hanna or goldie

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

oldie but Goldie = 65kg very light.

hanna = don't know weight: but she is a girl who was 158cm. so probably not very heavy.

but either way there are only 50% of people with nail breaks so there will no doubt be people who weigh less and are complication free. 

[galaxy1]

Okay once again, ones question on the reliability of the Betz Nail can be answered by asking Betz himself. Now how difficult can this be?

Your questions could be something like what I have below:

1) Exacty what is the total number of Betz Nail patients have you had in your entire career?

2) Okay, now what is the precise total who had a nail brake on them at some point? And it doesn't matter
    right now how the nail broke or who is at fault, I just want the information on the precise number of
    patients who had a nail that broke at some point while still in their leg.

Once you have the answers on the total number of broken nails during Betz career you can then go on to ask him further & more specific questions of course.

For Christ sake, nows not the time to be shy here. Your hard earned money and the health of your legs is on the line.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

Okay once again, ones question on the reliability of the HYDROLIC Nail can be answered by asking DR SARIN himself. Now how difficult can this be?

Your questions could be something like what I have below:

1) Exacty what is the total number of HYDROLIC Nail patients have you had in your entire career?

2) Okay, now what is the precise total who had a nail brake on them at some point? And it doesn't matter
    right now how the nail broke or who is at fault, I just want the information on the precise number of
    patients who had a nail that broke at some point while still in their leg.


SARINS ANSWER IS 100% OF PATIENTS ALL RECOVERED 100% TO HEALTHY. FEW HAD COMPLICATIONS THAT WERE FIXED AND ALL PEOPLES ARE HAPPY NOW FOREVER......................

WHEN OUR STATS DONT MATCH DR SARINS STATMENT WE CALL BULL   ON WHAT THE DOCTOR TELLS US.

doctors lie.

[galaxy1]

I'm sure doctors do lie all the time and you should take what they say with a grain of salt. But I'm sure records are on file somewhere whenever there is a scheduled surgery to remove a broken nail. That likely doesn't apply to India however. Of course there will be patients with broken nails who flee and never return to Germany, something to keep in mind.

One strange thing that doesnt make sense is we never hear a peep from the people who's nails have broke on them. For Christ sake we have people selling their homes and everything they own to have this surgery. Help your fellow man here.