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[ReadRothbard]

He wasent happy with his height. He always wanted to do leg lengthening to be 9'2 because it was his ideal height. It bothers him that giraffes were taller than him

The could give him a bj standing up.

[Taller]

The could give him a bj standing up.

Lol very true. I'd guess that even a foot long penis would look small on him though

[mybodyisready]

It's easy to say height doesn't matter when you're 178 cm which isn't even short at all for a guy who isn't in professional sports.

thats why i mentioned guys who happen to be short but still have a great time as an example. i dont think height is irrelevant but it isnt a problem unless you make it one. get yourself a positive attitude and learn how to communicate with people. go pick up girls on the street, at the grocery, in the library or whatever. here you dont have to compete with the taller guys like its the case at clubs. sure youre gonna get put down, but that happens to every guy regardless of height. nobody can get every girl. it is important to accept failure not as it is such, but rather see it as a learning experience: "this way it did not work out for me, lets see how i can improve my approach"

How tall are you now, mybodyisready?

182 cm

[Greek-Semidget]

thats why i mentioned guys who happen to be short but still have a great time as an example. i dont think height is irrelevant but it isnt a problem unless you make it one. get yourself a positive attitude and learn how to communicate with people. go pick up girls on the street, at the grocery, in the library or whatever. here you dont have to compete with the taller guys like its the case at clubs. sure youre gonna get put down, but that happens to every guy regardless of height. nobody can get every girl. it is important to accept failure not as it is such, but rather see it as a learning experience: "this way it did not work out for me, lets see how i can improve my approach"

182 cm

its ok man you sound wise, now you can stfu . People who never felt short won't be able to understand...

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

mybody is ready.

there are 2 types of discrimination with height.

external discrimination from others in society, and internal such as height neurosis.

I don't think you understand the difference. not all discrimination is the same. and depending on your height you will get varying levels of external discrimination.

especially if you are under 5"7.

a person can be completely secure with themselves and very confident and happy but still get treated as a second class citizen in society.

[Uppland]

I'm not really facing any glaring discrimination at 179CM but I think people would see me as a different person if I were a decimeter taller. More importantly I would be more happy and content with myself.

This talk of self acceptance is nice and all but it does beg the question why some of you are so set on this surgery. Let's face it: it's called cosmetic LL for a reason -none of us practicly need this but we all feel it would improve our life to a varying degree and that is perfectly alligned with your presented philosophies isn't it?

[Wannabegiant]

I'm not really facing any glaring discrimination at 179CM but I think people would see me as a different person if I were a decimeter taller. More importantly I would be more happy and content with myself.

This talk of self acceptance is nice and all but it does beg the question why some of you are so set on this surgery. Let's face it: it's called cosmetic LL for a reason -none of us practicly need this but we all feel it would improve our life to a varying degree and that is perfectly alligned with your presented philosophies isn't it?

Its important to make a distinction between those who want LL and are objectively short and those who already are average. It was already mentioned that people who objectively are below average height usually face external discrimination regardless how they feel about themselves, while those who are already average, like you said yourself your problem is technically only internal, people at average height dont face anywhere near the same level of discrimination, so the reason they do the surgery is to get luxuries, they are greedy for more benefits to be completely honest.

under average people just dont want to have to compensate for being short, if you are below average you will face discrimination unless you have a lot to make up for your height. Its not greedy to get rid of that handicap.

[GeTs]

Its important to make a distinction between those who want LL and are objectively short and those who already are average. It was already mentioned that people who objectively are below average height usually face external discrimination regardless how they feel about themselves, while those who are already average, like you said yourself your problem is technically only internal, people at average height dont face anywhere near the same level of discrimination, so the reason they do the surgery is to get luxuries, they are greedy for more benefits to be completely honest.

under average people just dont want to have to compensate for being short, if you are below average you will face discrimination unless you have a lot to make up for your height. Its not greedy to get rid of that handicap.

speak about urself

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

Its important to make a distinction between those who want LL and are objectively short and those who already are average. It was already mentioned that people who objectively are below average height usually face external discrimination regardless how they feel about themselves, while those who are already average, like you said yourself your problem is technically only internal, people at average height dont face anywhere near the same level of discrimination, so the reason they do the surgery is to get luxuries, they are greedy for more benefits to be completely honest.

under average people just dont want to have to compensate for being short, if you are below average you will face discrimination unless you have a lot to make up for your height. Its not greedy to get rid of that handicap.

wannabegiant wins the lotto for best answer

[Taller]

It really depends on what you want to do at your height.

Sometimes I feel that I still need to compensate for my perfectly average height when vying for leadership or alpha male positions because most of the top contenders for such positions tend to be and are expected to be substantially above average in height, so an average sized guy is expected to be a follower instead of a leader, and is seen as challenging the norm of he tries otherwise, whereas, while I hate to say it, the bellow average height people aren't even wanted as followers or parts of the group.

If you want to be included in groups without height discrimination coming into play, then average height is what you'd need. If you want to lead these groups without height discrimination causing people to reject you subconsciously as the leader to varying degrees, then a tall height is what you'd need.

Of course there are exceptions, and charisma can go further than height ever can. But when discussing height related stereotypes and expectations, I do believe that the above holds true in most cases.

[Wannabegiant]

It really depends on what you want to do at your height.

Sometimes I feel that I still need to compensate for my perfectly average height when vying for leadership or alpha male positions because most of the top contenders for such positions tend to be and are expected to be substantially above average in height, so an average sized guy is expected to be a follower instead of a leader, and is seen as challenging the norm of he tries otherwise, whereas, while I hate to say it, the bellow average height people aren't even wanted as followers or parts of the group.

If you want to be included in groups without height discrimination coming into play, then average height is what you'd need. If you want to lead these groups without height discrimination causing people to reject you subconsciously as the leader to varying degrees, then a tall height is what you'd need.

Of course there are exceptions, and charisma can go further than height ever can. But when discussing height related stereotypes and expectations, I do believe that the above holds true in most cases.

Yeah thats obvious but things like leadership and alpha male positions, if you feel that you need those kind things so much that you would do LL for it, then that is the perfect example of greed. Like it was mentioned earlier, it is possible to achieve those luxuries without being very tall, but you have to work a lot harder.

[Taller]

Maybe it's greed and maybe it's simply natural selection. Thanks for sharing your perspective on it though. It definitely is a valid one to consider.

[Wannabegiant]

Maybe it's greed and maybe it's simply natural selection. Thanks for sharing your perspective on it though. It definitely is a valid one to consider.

How can it be natural selection? I dont see how that could have anything to do with a persons goals. Personality, values and goals are pretty much only determined by the environment, not genes.

If someone wants to be a leader or an alpha simply for the status that follows, then that is greed and has very little if anything to do with genes. If a person is tall, then that is a trait which will make it easier to to become a leader, but if you do LL, then there is nothing natural about it either. So i dont see any correlation here.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

hmm interesting development on the thread.

all I will comment on is that natural selection is not based on insecurities it is based on greater reproductive success.

the desire to be taller can never be a part of natural selection because it is a trait that can not be altered naturally.

also natural selection is determined by the females,(not on how males view themselves) and females clearly have the most reproductive success with males of average height of 177.X cms.

[Uppland]

hmm interesting development on the thread.

all I will comment on is that natural selection is not based on insecurities it is based on greater reproductive success.

the desire to be taller can never be a part of natural selection because it is a trait that can not be altered naturally.

also natural selection is determined by the females,(not on how males view themselves) and females clearly have the most reproductive success with males of average height of 177.X cms.

That's true natural selection is something that works in ecology not social situations. Humans don't even have alpha males that's mostly a thing for lupine animals like wolves.

What Taller says is right though and it's where I notice obvious discrimination as well: I just can't command respect or lead a group of taller men which really is a thorn in my side.
I don't think it's greedy (not that I care much either way) to want to get taller when you aren't that short to begin with there is still more disadvantages than perks with my stature and I plan to change that.

[Wannabegiant]

That's true natural selection is something that works in ecology not social situations. Humans don't even have alpha males that's mostly a thing for lupine animals like wolves.

What Taller says is right though and it's where I notice obvious discrimination as well: I just can't command respect or lead a group of taller men which really is a thorn in my side.
I don't think it's greedy (not that I care much either way) to want to get taller when you aren't that short to begin with there is still more disadvantages than perks with my stature and I plan to change that.

Thats just silly, not being able to command or lead a group is not being discriminated against, its an ability and a privilege not an entitlement. Wanting height to make it easier to achieve the goal of becoming a leader is a luxury, its not something anyone should expect or demand to get. Wanting to get luxuries is greedy, wanting to do LL just so you can more easily be able to be a leader or get other extra benefits is greedy.

Im not saying its a big deal, but lets be honest here, it IS greedy. But feel free to be greedy, getting LL is everyones own choice.

[Overdozer]

Alpha-male? Leadership? Height? Can't command or lead a group of taller men? Mr. Vladimir Putin laughs at you all.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

I just can't command respect or lead a group of taller men

have you considered that you are just not cool enough to lead others?

its not like your joan of arc....... height doesn't automatically make you a leader. if you are a natural born leader you will lead no matter what height you are. I am not even as tall as you and I lead because I am intellectually superior to my peers. but mostly because I know I am a leader.

don't lie, you honestly believe that when you are taller you will magically become a leader. your doubt your self. this is evidence of non leadership qualities. people who are leaders do not sit there making excuses to why others don't follow them. people who are leaders just lead others because it happens on a non conscious level. they just be themselves and others follow. they have an unyielding charismatic quality where others just respond regardless of what they say simply because they said it.

the only people you will be capable of leading after LL are brainwashed individuals who have no substance and follow social programing. leaders can lead anyone not just conformists to social norms.

[G-Man]

My ideal height is 1m86, or around 6'1-6'2.  It's a personal choice and even though they are entertaining and fun to discuss, stats and pep talks won't influence my opinion.

Why?  For business and pleasure.  Over that you are not "one of the boys" anymore, you're becoming a bit of an outcast, you don't physically fit in as well and that is not my goal.

At 6'1 people will not talk about your height in a convo, you can have normal social interactions, a nice dating pool and all the benefs.  At 6'2 and above they'll often ask you how tall you are like the main thing that defines you is your height so it is a physical barrier that creates too much interference imo.

[Moubgf]

A true leader do not want any followers. Example jesus. But remember jesus was average height or a little over, atleast on the pictures shown.

Your true self is the one you don't show to the world

You are projecting your psuedo self to the world.

That what we call reality based anxiety.

You do your thing and others will get inspired to walk their own sadartha road. Or in this case they will copy you and think they are living life on their terms.

Smiling depressants.

[Uppland]

have you considered that you are just not cool enough to lead others?

its not like your joan of arc....... height doesn't automatically make you a leader. if you are a natural born leader you will lead no matter what height you are. I am not even as tall as you and I lead because I am intellectually superior to my peers. but mostly because I know I am a leader.

don't lie, you honestly believe that when you are taller you will magically become a leader. your doubt your self. this is evidence of non leadership qualities. people who are leaders do not sit there making excuses to why others don't follow them. people who are leaders just lead others because it happens on a non conscious level. they just be themselves and others follow. they have an unyielding charismatic quality where others just respond regardless of what they say simply because they said it.

the only people you will be capable of leading after LL are brainwashed individuals who have no substance and follow social programing. leaders can lead anyone not just conformists to social norms.

This is a much more controversial topic than I thought it would be.

My ideal height is 1m86, or around 6'1-6'2.  It's a personal choice and even though they are entertaining and fun to discuss, stats and pep talks won't influence my opinion.

Why?  For business and pleasure.  Over that you are not "one of the boys" anymore, you're becoming a bit of an outcast, you don't physically fit in as well and that is not my goal.

At 6'1 people will not talk about your height in a convo, you can have normal social interactions, a nice dating pool and all the benefs.  At 6'2 and above they'll often ask you how tall you are like the main thing that defines you is your height so it is a physical barrier that creates too much interference imo.

I think I know what you mean, 6'1 is a handsome height without being overtly tall I would like that as well. As I live in sweden and you are north american (I think) maybe add 3 cm to make it 189. I would be very content with that height.

[123]

This talk about "alpha-males" is ridiculous. Most of you guys are obviously insecure, LL won't fix that, it will only harm you, because I don't think you (average people who want LL) are "hard" enough to endure LL.

I was a leader at 165cm, I am still a leader at 173cm and I would have been a leader at 120cm. Height is a non-factor here. I was ALWAYS the shortest with really really tall guys around me (195cm) but you know what? Height doesn't mean   for that, you need to have personality for that kind of things you are wishing for.

[Moubgf]

This talk about "alpha-males" is ridiculous. Most of you guys are obviously insecure, LL won't fix that, it will only harm you, because I don't think you (average people who want LL) are "hard" enough to endure LL.

I was a leader at 165cm, I am still a leader at 173cm and I would have been a leader at 120cm. Height is a non-factor here. I was ALWAYS the shortest with really really tall guys around me (195cm) but you know what? Height doesn't mean s**t for that, you need to have personality for that kind of things you are wishing for.

You was beta at 165 and you are still beta at 173cm.
If you wore true alpha which in most cases is auto since adolecence then you would never been aware of height and changes it like you. So you are beta. But whatever you say bro.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

you need to have personality for that kind of things you are wishing for

exactly.

and now a side note for perspective:

2)Average Height (Entire population/adults-All ages over 20 years,20+)
 Country/Average Male Height (cm)/population

Sweden 179.3

As I live in sweden and you are north american (I think) maybe add 3 cm to make it 189. I would be very content with that height.

you do realize that your saying you will only feel content when your 4 inches above the average height. I think you are overcompensating with height for lack of your other qualities.

[Uppland]

Obviously I compare myself with young men (avg 181-182) since I am young and male myself.

Yes to truly feel content with my height I would like to be tall though I'd be happy with something around my dads height (187). Otherwise I would not be happy with my height but no one is happy with everything and that's okay. Please don't start calling others insecure or overcompensating, none of us are in any position to judge anyone on here.

I am of course very insecure about my height, the fact that I'm considering cosmetic surgery (along with all of you) should be proof enough of that and finally while there is nothing wrong with disagreeing or criticising what I think and say please do so with moderation to not make this an argument.

I started this thread to get opinions on what the best height range is and why. If you feel like I crossed a line at some point I'm sorry.

[123]

You was beta at 165 and you are still beta at 173cm.
If you wore true alpha which in most cases is auto since adolecence then you would never been aware of height and changes it like you. So you are beta. But whatever you say bro.

Lol, stfu. I did it because I could. You have obviously real problems at 165cm. Ever tried buying jeans? Ever tried joining the military? So please don't talk like this, because at 165cm you are in the 95 percentile (if you even know what that means), so you face real life struggles, because the world is build for men around 178cm.

And btw can you explain to me how being "alpha" (which is btw a ridiculous word and a retarded concept) should make you unaware of your height? 

[Taller]

First, let me clarify my point on natural selection. If a person lacks the traits to mate with a certain person of high attractiveness/mating value (which is usually indicative of good child bearing abilities) because of that person's height standards, but LL makes then tall enough to be attractive to that person and mate with her, then the LL patient has effectively out competed all of the men who would have otherwise been the mate of the female in question. Though genes aren't directly involved, you are clearly seeing competition for mates and behavior (LL) affecting its outcome, so that the LL patient's genes are passed on with a desired and probably person whereas they might otherwise not have been. Having your genes instead of another man's inside the offspring of a "high value" woman might ensure longer term survival of your genes than if you'd mated with a less desirable woman without LL. The kids would have your genes and those of the socially valuable woman, and the woman's genes would probably ensure that the children with your genes fare well in the mating game as well since she has many attractive genes, or more than the women that you would theoretically have had without LL. It's a stupid and over simplistic theory, but I thought that it would be fun to throw it out there for the sake of discussion.

Wannabegiant, when did I say that I demanded or deserved the extra benefits that height has on leadership? Nobody deserves anything. Nature is randomness. Order and symmetry amidst this infinite randomness is a large component of beauty. But, back on track. We do the best to live the lives we want to live. Nature doesn't owe us anything and if we don't have it but really want it, we have to get it for ourselves one way or another. If I want something, I'll do my best to get it as long as it doesn't harm others unfairly. Of course justice is quite subjective, but I don't see anything morally wrong with me getting LL at average height. I could buy a car or house, but I'd rather upgrade myself and fix a long-standing insecurity instead of buying a car or house that won't give me nearly the pleasure and confidence that more height would. Call me greedy if you want to, but then call all luxury car buyers, game console buyers, and flat screen  TV owners greedy too.

When did I say height automatically makes a person a leader? I didn't. I said that a person of average height has to work harder and do more to be perceived as a leader. I stand by this. What's wrong with trying to change myself to be more easily perceived as a leader and as a desirable, admirable man? Sure I don't need it, but I don't need my nice TV or clothes either. I view height as a much better investment than anything else. It won't just give me benefits, it will cure a long-standing insecurity too. My whole family is tall except for me, and it does kind of make me feel jealous and bitter because everyone in my family gets these benefits that I don't, and I want to feel more like one of them. I feel like my current height conflicts with my inner identity. Soon I'll have the power to change that. Getting taller will be a luxury, but what's wrong with obtaining and enjoying luxuries if you've worked hard enough to obtain then fairly? You yourself talk about wearing nicer clothes than others to increase your value above that of the average 179CM dude. How are you not greedy while I am? I'd say we're both greedy. Humans are innately greedy.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

upland
you never crossed any line. I speak the truth of what I see, nothing I say is based on emotive reasoning. I am impartial to emotion with the things I have told you. my aim is to state truths and hope you can see them.

also.

1)Average Height by Country (Youth:20-30 years)
 Country/Average Male Height (cm)/population
2006-2010

Sweden 180.4

the reason for the height discrepancy is not because the younger generation is taller. it is because as you age you shrink. further more it can be argued that women do not selectively categorize average height to the men she wants to date but compared rather to all the men in her life.

in case you don't know what that means. it means that it is not conclusive that you warrant using the "advantages" higher average height as the true criteria for what women judge you against.

it can be argued that women judge height based on the men in their life not just the dating selection. and that this is a subconscious response to the law of averages.

my point is that neither opinion is conclusive. we just don't know the answer.

[Uppland]

upland
you never crossed any line. I speak the truth of what I see, nothing I say is based on emotive reasoning. I am impartial to emotion with the things I have told you. my aim is to state truths and hope you can see them.

also.

1)Average Height by Country (Youth:20-30 years)
 Country/Average Male Height (cm)/population
2006-2010

Sweden 180.4

the reason for the height discrepancy is not because the younger generation is taller. it is because as you age you shrink. further more it can be argued that women do not selectively categorize average height to the men she wants to date but compared rather to all the men in her life.

in case you don't know what that means. it means that it is not conclusive that you warrant using the "advantages" higher average height as the true criteria for what women judge you against.

it can be argued that women judge height based on the men in their life not just the dating selection. and that this is a subconscious response to the law of averages.

my point is that neither opinion is conclusive. we just don't know the answer.

That's a good point to make I'm glad we've left the talk of leadership abilities and insecuritis behind. You're absolutely right in what you're saying but the mean height is the most consistent criteria to base assumptions on. If I remember the lessons on standard deviation correctly the average of 181 (rough estimate I know) should mean that about one in ten are 190CM or above. I believe the top 10% is an ideal (not neccessary for my psychological well being, thank you very much) range to be in. This is because, as we all know, tall height provides certain advantages and further I believe that anything above 195CM will give an insignificant boost to said perks while adding inconveniances like extra stress on sceleton, intimidation and less agility.

So there you have it a nice range between 190-195. Do you agree or disagree? Please tell me why and also what you think would be better.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

I don't see anything morally wrong with me getting LL at average height.

there is nothing morally wrong with getting LL when you are average. as long as you admit that it is being done because of an internal insecurity and not an external discrimination.

the argument is not that it is morally wrong, the argument is one of realization. as long as you can clearly see that its an internal problem and not an external problem then by all means your mind is in the right frame of mind to get LL because it would mean you don't suffer from delusion on this issue.

also I disagree on the leader issue. people who are leaders are leaders at any height. it is a mentality, not a height, the only people you will be a leader over after LL (that you weren't a leader to before) are people who have a weak mind to start with.

[GROWtalORdieTRYING1]

So there you have it a nice range between 190-195. Do you agree or disagree? Please tell me why and also what you think would be better.

well I disagree strongly. it is a bell shaped curve. girls prefer normality.

you will gain more girls at a taller height wanting to be with you, and loose all other height ranges of girls. the end result is that the small number od girls who now find you attractive is dwarfed by the massive number of girls in the population who now find you ugly(unpleasant, disagreeable, especially in appearance).