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[MoveUp]

We are blessed to be in an age where we can fix many of our real or perceived flaws hence why we are here, on this forum, discussing CLL.

However, I truly believe that this is not an answer to achieving fundamental happiness as this requires self acceptance.

I have been bothered by my height for years and severally so,  but have focused on being less hard on myself for my flaws (not just height) and focusing instead on self development. I am 5x happier than a few years ago and feel like I see the world differently.

Over the past year I've:

-Explored pickup (having good social skills with women)
-Given up porn which negatively rewires the brain
-Tried cold showers
-Meditated
-Read self help books and followed mentors

A year or two ago, if I would see a 6ft tall guy get a smile from a girl,  my brain would search for the threat to my existence which it perceived as "not being 6ft". Now I have confidence that I can attract women through game, effort, and hard work. I also realized that we don't see what is going on in the inside of people. Maybe the 6ft guy has SA, low testosterone, health conditions, paranoia about hair loss, ADD.. the list goes on.

Try self development. Read self help. Acquire knowledge that many are lazy to acquire and this will give you a leg up with women, making money, discipline, physical health and so on.

If after this journey,  you still want to grow a few inches,  more to power to ya. But you owe it to yourself IMO to realize there are other paths,  other ways. Question your thinking and views of reality and be the best version of your current self first

[Android]

I respect the effort, and more power to you for sure. Not every short person is bothered by their height, and a lot less even consider surgery. We are an anomaly on these forums.

That being said, I've had a hair transplant and boy, did it change my confidence a lot. I can't believe the old me when Google Photos routinely reminds me of my old self ("this day three years ago" types of automated messages). An ex did say that she wouldn't have gone out with me if I was balding, so that's something (she also criticized my height a few times... they all have).

This improvement in my confidence has encouraged me to consider CLL again after years of forgetting about it, since I've felt that boost from my hair. I'm a frugal guy and I don't spend money on nice gadgets and cars, and I'd rather put my savings toward something more permanent.

Anyway, good luck on your journey and I'm glad that you're living true to your signature. Have a great one!

[IwannaBeTaller]

I also recommend to get used to being grateful for the things you have. It's called the "habit of gratitude" and it's proven to improve your general well-being, sleep quality and physical health.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/giving-thanks-can-make-you-happier
http://happierhuman.com/benefits-of-gratitude/

[..]

We are blessed to be in an age where we can fix many of our real or perceived flaws hence why we are here, on this forum, discussing CLL.

However, I truly believe that this is not an answer to achieving fundamental happiness as this requires self acceptance.

I have been bothered by my height for years and severally so,  but have focused on being less hard on myself for my flaws (not just height) and focusing instead on self development. I am 5x happier than a few years ago and feel like I see the world differently.

Over the past year I've:

-Explored pickup (having good social skills with women)
-Given up porn which negatively rewires the brain
-Tried cold showers
-Meditated
-Read self help books and followed mentors

A year or two ago, if I would see a 6ft tall guy get a smile from a girl,  my brain would search for the threat to my existence which it perceived as "not being 6ft". Now I have confidence that I can attract women through game, effort, and hard work. I also realized that we don't see what is going on in the inside of people. Maybe the 6ft guy has SA, low testosterone, health conditions, paranoia about hair loss, ADD.. the list goes on.

Try self development. Read self help. Acquire knowledge that many are lazy to acquire and this will give you a leg up with women, making money, discipline, physical health and so on.

If after this journey,  you still want to grow a few inches,  more to power to ya. But you owe it to yourself IMO to realize there are other paths,  other ways. Question your thinking and views of reality and be the best version of your current self first

Cope. Being 6' feet doesn't mean not healthy and vice versa. It's just an excuse you use to cheer up yourself trying to rationalize why being your height is ok. If anything, I've seen more short bald people than tall bald people. Idk why.

[extremis]

We are blessed to be in an age where we can fix many of our real or perceived flaws hence why we are here, on this forum, discussing CLL.

However, I truly believe that this is not an answer to achieving fundamental happiness as this requires self acceptance.

Utter garbage. There is no such thing as "acceptance". What you're talking about is "resignation" and subsequent lifelong coping.

You need to understand that the only reason you are preaching "self acceptance" to people who are profoundly unhappy with a personal physical characteristic of theirs, in this case their HEIGHT, is that it isn't presently considered "socially acceptable" to be unhappy or uncomfortable with your height.

In 2017, if a man wakes up today and decides that he's not really a man, he's a woman, and he needs to have full-body feminization surgery and take estradiol pills for life so he can become a caricature of the female sex, nobody tells him to "accept himself" and be happy as a man.

Similarly, if a woman decides she's actually a man "trapped" in a woman's body, then it's perfectly socially acceptable for her to have an artificial penis attached, take testosterone injections for life, enlarge her clitoris using transdermal Dihydrotestosterone creams, and so on. Nobody either believes or tells her that what she actually needs is "self-acceptance".

Heightism is a real phenomenon that manifests itself in many different aspects and fields of your life, from the basic interpersonal to the sexual and even the entrepreneurial/career worlds. Nobody ends up on a forum for a surgery as painful, traumatic, crippling, expensive, and obscure as cosmetic limb lengthening because they suddenly looked in the mirror one day and decided they weren't happy with their stature.

Barring a few outliers, i.e. individuals who are 6'0" and above but still want to have leg lengthening done and invariably have some kind of reason like "being taller than everyone else in the room", the overwhelming majority of posters on LL boards don't have an "imaginary" problem. They don't have "BDD". They don't need "therapy", "self-acceptance", "antidepressants", or any of that leftist-humanist garbage. They end up on this board because of the overwhelmingly negative life experiences they've had as a result of their short stature.

I have been bothered by my height for years and severally so,  but have focused on being less hard on myself for my flaws (not just height) and focusing instead on self development. I am 5x happier than a few years ago and feel like I see the world differently.

Over the past year I've:

It's not about "not being hard on yourself".

Let me reiterate: the problem isn't "in short people's heads". The problem is the way people treat them. Heightism is real. Telling them to "accept themselves" and forget about trying to get taller through LL or whatever method is no different from telling them to give up and accept an underprivileged, downtrodden status in society.

The rest of your post exemplifies what I said about "resignation" and psychological coping mechanisms.

"Self-development" is great. It is something that, if at all, should be pursued for its own sake. It is its own reward. It's not something you should pursue to "distract" yourself from your unhappiness or dissatisfaction, or to try to "compensate" for being short.

With that being said, a cursory look at the "self-improvement" you've done reveals some pretty questionable things:

-Explored pickup (having good social skills with women)

The fact that you directly reference "women" here tells me this is something you did because you got suckered in by PUA shills selling books/classes/seminars/techniques/etc who promised you that if you had good enough """game""", your height would either matter less or not at all.

This is false, and it's a very dangerous and irresponsible thing to recommend to any man at all in 2017, let alone a group of men that are considered tremendously undesirable essentially everywhere on the planet(short men).

I'm sorry to break this to you, but PUA ("Pick Up Art") is nothing but entry-level behavioral psychology disguised under a thin veil of casual "bro" language intended to establish rapport and relatability with their intended customer base (that's you) and broscience garbage made up by the "coaches" and given scientific-sounding names to legitimize them ("kino", etc)

Sexual attraction is PHYSICAL. This is in both NEW and existing long-term relationships such as marriages

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/per.2087/abstract

We evaluated five competing hypotheses about what predicts romantic interest. [...] We tested whether similarity, dissimilarity or overall trait levels on mate value, physical attractiveness, life history strategy and the Big Five personality factors predicted romantic interest at zero acquaintance and whether sex acted as a moderator. [...] Only the responders' perception of the targets' physical attractiveness predicted romantic interest; specifically, responders' who rated the targets' physical attractiveness as higher than themselves reported more romantic interest.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18266540

Physical appearance plays a crucial role in shaping new relationships, but does it continue to affect established relationships, such as marriage? In the current study, the authors examined how observer ratings of each spouse's facial attractiveness and the difference between those ratings were associated with (a) observations of social support behavior and (b) reports of marital satisfaction. [...] Instead, the relative difference between partners' levels of attractiveness appeared to be most important in predicting marital behavior, [...]

Attraction isn't dictated by logic, reasoning, "emotional manipulation", "game", or any such nonsense. A woman either finds you physically attractive or she doesn't. If a woman doesn't find you physically attractive, there's no "magic words" you can say or "right thing" you can do - no "dread game", no "kino", no "negging", NOTHING is going to change that. You will not "talk her" into finding you attractive. Period. End of story.

Believe it or not, the average woman finds PUA "techniques" disturbing, off-putting, creepy, and altogether repulsive. Women do not WANT to be approached, touched, "gamed", or any such thing by men they find physically unattractive/undesirable.

Men have gotten in serious trouble for doing this stuff. So many that all sorts of venues, including clubs, college campuses, cities, and even entire countries have started to ban "pick up artists" and "pick up art" routines:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/652965/pick-up-artist-banned-from-singapore-over-techniques

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pick-up-artist-julien-blanc-banned-4656160

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/creepy-ad-showing-british-pick-7177426

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/09/25/why_are_women_so_negative_about_the_pickup_artist_community_.html

http://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/almost-went-to-jail-banned-from-campus-for-doing-daygame-vt145519.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/ohio-state-university-students-shame-a-notoriously-creepy-pick-up-artist-2013-10

There are COUNTLESS more examples. I won't tell you not to "study" pickup. Do what you want. It's your life. But don't advocate it to others. PUA is garbage and will get all but men who were already considered attractive by women publicly shamed, ostracized, and maybe even incarcerated. There is no "game".

-Given up porn which negatively rewires the brain
-Tried cold showers
-Meditated

Lol. These three are really bad examples of "self-improvement". Based on the names, I'm guessing you're referring to the NoFap "movement", "Wim Hof" method, and the new-age "meditation revival" that's going on these days.

All three of the groups that practice these things are similar in that they all have an almost cult-like mentality about their "practice" (whether it be not masturbating, cold showers, or meditation) that is based at least to some extent on scientific principles, i.e.

- Pornography DOES have both negative psychological and neurological effects, and quitting IS beneficial, especially if you are an addict

- The "Wim Hof" method is actually not the "Wim Hof" method, since Wim Hof didn't invent anything involved in it. "Deep breathing" is a technique that has been historically practiced by numerous cultures throughout the world (Indian, Chinese, Tibetan, Mongolian, Greek, ...).

"Cold showers", however, are largely pseudoscience and don't do any of the things Wim Hof claims they do:

http://www.thebroscientist.com/bull -cold-showers-youve-told-far/

There IS research that suggests a small increase in brown adipose tissue in the bodies of people exposed to extremely cold temperatures over a long period of time, but the increase is neither significant nor relevant to Wim Hof's claims.

Also, Wim Hof is a quack that believes in nonsensical concepts like "earthing".

- "Meditation" insofar as deep breathing and mindfulness is concerned is useful in helping to stimulate the brain's Default Mode Network, which could have benefits if you suffer from chemical depression or panic disorders, but again the "community" around it has transformed it into this transcendental pseudo-spiritual garbage that is almost cult-like.

-Read self help books and followed mentors

"Self-help" books are collections of feel-good "positive affirmations" and other "motivating" and "uplifting" content marketed by charlatans and snake oil vendors looking to make a quick buck off the unfortunate and underprivileged in society.

There is a small demographic people who could genuinely stand to benefit from the "tips", "tricks", "techniques", and so on given by "self-help" books: the lazy, the directionless, the habitually mediocre, so on. In other words, the group of people who benefit from "self-help" books are people whose problems are created by themselves, and as we've already established, short people aren't in that group.


"Mentors"... this is the opposite of "self improvement". Think for yourself. If you follow someone else, the best you'll ever be is number two.

A year or two ago, if I would see a 6ft tall guy get a smile from a girl,  my brain would search for the threat to my existence which it perceived as "not being 6ft". Now I have confidence that I can attract women through game, effort, and hard work. I also realized that we don't see what is going on in the inside of people. Maybe the 6ft guy has SA, low testosterone, health conditions, paranoia about hair loss, ADD.. the list goes on.

Addressed above. Note that this paragraph essentially says

"Before, tall men getting indications of attraction from women were a constant and immediate reminder of what I didn't get or have. I couldn't deal with that psychologically, so I began coping with "game" and have now convinced myself that I can 'effort' and 'hard work' myself into being as attractive as tall men."

Which is textbook delusion-as-defense.

Try self development. Read self help. Acquire knowledge that many are lazy to acquire and this will give you a leg up with women, making money, discipline, physical health and so on.

If after this journey,  you still want to grow a few inches,  more to power to ya. But you owe it to yourself IMO to realize there are other paths,  other ways. Question your thinking and views of reality and be the best version of your current self first

Again, addressed in the rest of my answer above.

Neither "self development" nor "self-help" will fix the problems - whether they be interpersonal, romantic, sexual, entrepreneurial/career based - of anyone who ends up on these forums. Again:

The problem is not "within" short people. The problem is the way others see and treat them.

This last paragraph is also pretty presumptuous in that it assumes that people on this board "haven't tried" your so-called "self-improvement".

We have all sorts on this board - people who are into fitness and have "ripped" bodies (of which I am one), people (other than myself) who I highly suspect are informed about "PUA" and such, and even a millionaire or two.

None of their "self-improvement" stopped them from getting leg lengthening or planning to.

People who read this thread: by all means improve yourself, but again, do it for its own sake, for your own enrichment and elevation. Not because you think it'll "fix" your height-based depression (it won't), make you attractive to women (it won't), or change your status amongst society or your peers (again, it won't).

[TIBIKE200]

Utter garbage. There is no such thing as "acceptance". What you're talking about is "resignation" and subsequent lifelong coping.

You need to understand that the only reason you are preaching "self acceptance" to people who are profoundly unhappy with a personal physical characteristic of theirs, in this case their HEIGHT, is that it isn't presently considered "socially acceptable" to be unhappy or uncomfortable with your height.

In 2017, if a man wakes up today and decides that he's not really a man, he's a woman, and he needs to have full-body feminization surgery and take estradiol pills for life so he can become a caricature of the female sxx, nobody tells him to "accept himself" and be happy as a man.

Similarly, if a woman decides she's actually a man "trapped" in a woman's body, then it's perfectly socially acceptable for her to have an artificial penis attached, take testosterone injections for life, enlarge her clitoris using transdermal Dihydrotestosterone creams, and so on. Nobody either believes or tells her that what she actually needs is "self-acceptance".

Heightism is a real phenomenon that manifests itself in many different aspects and fields of your life, from the basic interpersonal to the sxxual and even the entrepreneurial/career worlds. Nobody ends up on a forum for a surgery as painful, traumatic, crippling, expensive, and obscure as cosmetic limb lengthening because they suddenly looked in the mirror one day and decided they weren't happy with their stature.

Barring a few outliers, i.e. individuals who are 6'0" and above but still want to have leg lengthening done and invariably have some kind of reason like "being taller than everyone else in the room", the overwhelming majority of posters on LL boards don't have an "imaginary" problem. They don't have "BDD". They don't need "therapy", "self-acceptance", "antidepressants", or any of that leftist-humanist garbage. They end up on this board because of the overwhelmingly negative life experiences they've had as a result of their short stature.

It's not about "not being hard on yourself".

Let me reiterate: the problem isn't "in short people's heads". The problem is the way people treat them. Heightism is real. Telling them to "accept themselves" and forget about trying to get taller through LL or whatever method is no different from telling them to give up and accept an underprivileged, downtrodden status in society.

The rest of your post exemplifies what I said about "resignation" and psychological coping mechanisms.

"Self-development" is great. It is something that, if at all, should be pursued for its own sake. It is its own reward. It's not something you should pursue to "distract" yourself from your unhappiness or dissatisfaction, or to try to "compensate" for being short.

With that being said, a cursory look at the "self-improvement" you've done reveals some pretty questionable things:

The fact that you directly reference "women" here tells me this is something you did because you got suckered in by PUA shills selling books/classes/seminars/techniques/etc who promised you that if you had good enough """game""", your height would either matter less or not at all.

This is false, and it's a very dangerous and irresponsible thing to recommend to any man at all in 2017, let alone a group of men that are considered tremendously undesirable essentially everywhere on the planet(short men).

I'm sorry to break this to you, but PUA ("Pick Up Art") is nothing but entry-level behavioral psychology disguised under a thin veil of casual "bro" language intended to establish rapport and relatability with their intended customer base (that's you) and broscience garbage made up by the "coaches" and given scientific-sounding names to legitimize them ("kino", etc)

sxxual attraction is PHYSICAL. This is in both NEW and existing long-term relationships such as marriages

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/per.2087/abstract

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18266540


Attraction isn't dictated by logic, reasoning, "emotional manipulation", "game", or any such nonsense. A woman either finds you physically attractive or she doesn't. If a woman doesn't find you physically attractive, there's no "magic words" you can say or "right thing" you can do - no "dread game", no "kino", no "negging", NOTHING is going to change that. You will not "talk her" into finding you attractive. Period. End of story.

Believe it or not, the average woman finds PUA "techniques" disturbing, off-putting, creepy, and altogether repulsive. Women do not WANT to be approached, touched, "gamed", or any such thing by men they find physically unattractive/undesirable.

Men have gotten in serious trouble for doing this stuff. So many that all sorts of venues, including clubs, college campuses, cities, and even entire countries have started to ban "pick up artists" and "pick up art" routines:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/652965/pick-up-artist-banned-from-singapore-over-techniques

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pick-up-artist-julien-blanc-banned-4656160

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/creepy-ad-showing-british-pick-7177426

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/09/25/why_are_women_so_negative_about_the_pickup_artist_community_.html

http://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/almost-went-to-jail-banned-from-campus-for-doing-daygame-vt145519.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/ohio-state-university-students-shame-a-notoriously-creepy-pick-up-artist-2013-10

There are COUNTLESS more examples. I won't tell you not to "study" pickup. Do what you want. It's your life. But don't advocate it to others. PUA is garbage and will get all but men who were already considered attractive by women publicly shamed, ostracized, and maybe even incarcerated. There is no "game".


Lol. These three are really bad examples of "self-improvement". Based on the names, I'm guessing you're referring to the NoFap "movement", "Wim Hof" method, and the new-age "meditation revival" that's going on these days.

All three of the groups that practice these things are similar in that they all have an almost cult-like mentality about their "practice" (whether it be not masturbating, cold showers, or meditation) that is based at least to some extent on scientific principles, i.e.

- Pornography DOES have both negative psychological and neurological effects, and quitting IS beneficial, especially if you are an addict

- The "Wim Hof" method is actually not the "Wim Hof" method, since Wim Hof didn't invent anything involved in it. "Deep breathing" is a technique that has been historically practiced by numerous cultures throughout the world (Indian, Chinese, Tibetan, Mongolian, Greek, ...).

"Cold showers", however, are largely pseudoscience and don't do any of the things Wim Hof claims they do:

http://www.thebroscientist.com/bullcrap-cold-showers-youve-told-far/

There IS research that suggests a small increase in brown adipose tissue in the bodies of people exposed to extremely cold temperatures over a long period of time, but the increase is neither significant nor relevant to Wim Hof's claims.

Also, Wim Hof is a quack that believes in nonsensical concepts like "earthing".

- "Meditation" insofar as deep breathing and mindfulness is concerned is useful in helping to stimulate the brain's Default Mode Network, which could have benefits if you suffer from chemical depression or panic disorders, but again the "community" around it has transformed it into this transcendental pseudo-spiritual garbage that is almost cult-like.

"Self-help" books are collections of feel-good "positive affirmations" and other "motivating" and "uplifting" content marketed by charlatans and snke oil vendors looking to make a quick buck off the unfortunate and underprivileged in society.

There is a small demographic people who could genuinely stand to benefit from the "tips", "tricks", "techniques", and so on given by "self-help" books: the lazy, the directionless, the habitually mediocre, so on. In other words, the group of people who benefit from "self-help" books are people whose problems are created by themselves, and as we've already established, short people aren't in that group.


"Mentors"... this is the opposite of "self improvement". Think for yourself. If you follow someone else, the best you'll ever be is number two.

Addressed above. Note that this paragraph essentially says

"Before, tall men getting indications of attraction from women were a constant and immediate reminder of what I didn't get or have. I couldn't deal with that psychologically, so I began coping with "game" and have now convinced myself that I can 'effort' and 'hard work' myself into being as attractive as tall men."

Which is textbook delusion-as-defense.


Again, addressed in the rest of my answer above.

Neither "self development" nor "self-help" will fix the problems - whether they be interpersonal, romantic, sxxual, entrepreneurial/career based - of anyone who ends up on these forums. Again:

The problem is not "within" short people. The problem is the way others see and treat them.

This last paragraph is also pretty presumptuous in that it assumes that people on this board "haven't tried" your so-called "self-improvement".

We have all sorts on this board - people who are into fitness and have "ripped" bodies (of which I am one), people (other than myself) who I highly suspect are informed about "PUA" and such, and even a millionaire or two.

None of their "self-improvement" stopped them from getting leg lengthening or planning to.

People who read this thread: by all means improve yourself, but again, do it for its own sake, for your own enrichment and elevation. Not because you think it'll "fix" your height-based depression (it won't), make you attractive to women (it won't), or change your status amongst society or your peers (again, it won't).

I have seen your posts here.
 
 Are you a prospective/present LL patient?
What's your height btw?

[MrHandsome]

You can be attractive to women as a short man only if you are good looking.

[myloginacct]

An ex did say that she wouldn't have gone out with me if I was balding

(she also criticized my height a few times... they all have)

That's all really shxtty to do, specially the height part.

[google42]

I have seen your posts here.
 
 Are you a prospective/present LL patient?
What's your height btw?

Yea I'd like to know too.

[..]

You can be attractive to women as a short man only if you are good looking.

Yeah, only if you're referring to 5'8"-5'9" short.

[MoveUp]

Utter garbage. There is no such thing as "acceptance". What you're talking about is "resignation" and subsequent lifelong coping.

You need to understand that the only reason you are preaching "self acceptance" to people who are profoundly unhappy with a personal physical characteristic of theirs, in this case their HEIGHT, is that it isn't presently considered "socially acceptable" to be unhappy or uncomfortable with your height.

In 2017, if a man wakes up today and decides that he's not really a man, he's a woman, and he needs to have full-body feminization surgery and take estradiol pills for life so he can become a caricature of the female sxx, nobody tells him to "accept himself" and be happy as a man.

Similarly, if a woman decides she's actually a man "trapped" in a woman's body, then it's perfectly socially acceptable for her to have an artificial penis attached, take testosterone injections for life, enlarge her clitoris using transdermal Dihydrotestosterone creams, and so on. Nobody either believes or tells her that what she actually needs is "self-acceptance".

Heightism is a real phenomenon that manifests itself in many different aspects and fields of your life, from the basic interpersonal to the sxxual and even the entrepreneurial/career worlds. Nobody ends up on a forum for a surgery as painful, traumatic, crippling, expensive, and obscure as cosmetic limb lengthening because they suddenly looked in the mirror one day and decided they weren't happy with their stature.

Barring a few outliers, i.e. individuals who are 6'0" and above but still want to have leg lengthening done and invariably have some kind of reason like "being taller than everyone else in the room", the overwhelming majority of posters on LL boards don't have an "imaginary" problem. They don't have "BDD". They don't need "therapy", "self-acceptance", "antidepressants", or any of that leftist-humanist garbage. They end up on this board because of the overwhelmingly negative life experiences they've had as a result of their short stature.

It's not about "not being hard on yourself".

Let me reiterate: the problem isn't "in short people's heads". The problem is the way people treat them. Heightism is real. Telling them to "accept themselves" and forget about trying to get taller through LL or whatever method is no different from telling them to give up and accept an underprivileged, downtrodden status in society.

The rest of your post exemplifies what I said about "resignation" and psychological coping mechanisms.

"Self-development" is great. It is something that, if at all, should be pursued for its own sake. It is its own reward. It's not something you should pursue to "distract" yourself from your unhappiness or dissatisfaction, or to try to "compensate" for being short.

With that being said, a cursory look at the "self-improvement" you've done reveals some pretty questionable things:

The fact that you directly reference "women" here tells me this is something you did because you got suckered in by PUA shills selling books/classes/seminars/techniques/etc who promised you that if you had good enough """game""", your height would either matter less or not at all.

This is false, and it's a very dangerous and irresponsible thing to recommend to any man at all in 2017, let alone a group of men that are considered tremendously undesirable essentially everywhere on the planet(short men).

I'm sorry to break this to you, but PUA ("Pick Up Art") is nothing but entry-level behavioral psychology disguised under a thin veil of casual "bro" language intended to establish rapport and relatability with their intended customer base (that's you) and broscience garbage made up by the "coaches" and given scientific-sounding names to legitimize them ("kino", etc)

sxxual attraction is PHYSICAL. This is in both NEW and existing long-term relationships such as marriages

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/per.2087/abstract

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18266540


Attraction isn't dictated by logic, reasoning, "emotional manipulation", "game", or any such nonsense. A woman either finds you physically attractive or she doesn't. If a woman doesn't find you physically attractive, there's no "magic words" you can say or "right thing" you can do - no "dread game", no "kino", no "negging", NOTHING is going to change that. You will not "talk her" into finding you attractive. Period. End of story.

Believe it or not, the average woman finds PUA "techniques" disturbing, off-putting, creepy, and altogether repulsive. Women do not WANT to be approached, touched, "gamed", or any such thing by men they find physically unattractive/undesirable.

Men have gotten in serious trouble for doing this stuff. So many that all sorts of venues, including clubs, college campuses, cities, and even entire countries have started to ban "pick up artists" and "pick up art" routines:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/652965/pick-up-artist-banned-from-singapore-over-techniques

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pick-up-artist-julien-blanc-banned-4656160

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/creepy-ad-showing-british-pick-7177426

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/09/25/why_are_women_so_negative_about_the_pickup_artist_community_.html

http://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/almost-went-to-jail-banned-from-campus-for-doing-daygame-vt145519.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/ohio-state-university-students-shame-a-notoriously-creepy-pick-up-artist-2013-10

There are COUNTLESS more examples. I won't tell you not to "study" pickup. Do what you want. It's your life. But don't advocate it to others. PUA is garbage and will get all but men who were already considered attractive by women publicly shamed, ostracized, and maybe even incarcerated. There is no "game".


Lol. These three are really bad examples of "self-improvement". Based on the names, I'm guessing you're referring to the NoFap "movement", "Wim Hof" method, and the new-age "meditation revival" that's going on these days.

All three of the groups that practice these things are similar in that they all have an almost cult-like mentality about their "practice" (whether it be not masturbating, cold showers, or meditation) that is based at least to some extent on scientific principles, i.e.

- Pornography DOES have both negative psychological and neurological effects, and quitting IS beneficial, especially if you are an addict

- The "Wim Hof" method is actually not the "Wim Hof" method, since Wim Hof didn't invent anything involved in it. "Deep breathing" is a technique that has been historically practiced by numerous cultures throughout the world (Indian, Chinese, Tibetan, Mongolian, Greek, ...).

"Cold showers", however, are largely pseudoscience and don't do any of the things Wim Hof claims they do:

http://www.thebroscientist.com/bullcrap-cold-showers-youve-told-far/

There IS research that suggests a small increase in brown adipose tissue in the bodies of people exposed to extremely cold temperatures over a long period of time, but the increase is neither significant nor relevant to Wim Hof's claims.

Also, Wim Hof is a quack that believes in nonsensical concepts like "earthing".

- "Meditation" insofar as deep breathing and mindfulness is concerned is useful in helping to stimulate the brain's Default Mode Network, which could have benefits if you suffer from chemical depression or panic disorders, but again the "community" around it has transformed it into this transcendental pseudo-spiritual garbage that is almost cult-like.

"Self-help" books are collections of feel-good "positive affirmations" and other "motivating" and "uplifting" content marketed by charlatans and snke oil vendors looking to make a quick buck off the unfortunate and underprivileged in society.

There is a small demographic people who could genuinely stand to benefit from the "tips", "tricks", "techniques", and so on given by "self-help" books: the lazy, the directionless, the habitually mediocre, so on. In other words, the group of people who benefit from "self-help" books are people whose problems are created by themselves, and as we've already established, short people aren't in that group.


"Mentors"... this is the opposite of "self improvement". Think for yourself. If you follow someone else, the best you'll ever be is number two.

Addressed above. Note that this paragraph essentially says

"Before, tall men getting indications of attraction from women were a constant and immediate reminder of what I didn't get or have. I couldn't deal with that psychologically, so I began coping with "game" and have now convinced myself that I can 'effort' and 'hard work' myself into being as attractive as tall men."

Which is textbook delusion-as-defense.


Again, addressed in the rest of my answer above.

Neither "self development" nor "self-help" will fix the problems - whether they be interpersonal, romantic, sxxual, entrepreneurial/career based - of anyone who ends up on these forums. Again:

The problem is not "within" short people. The problem is the way others see and treat them.

This last paragraph is also pretty presumptuous in that it assumes that people on this board "haven't tried" your so-called "self-improvement".

We have all sorts on this board - people who are into fitness and have "ripped" bodies (of which I am one), people (other than myself) who I highly suspect are informed about "PUA" and such, and even a millionaire or two.

None of their "self-improvement" stopped them from getting leg lengthening or planning to.

People who read this thread: by all means improve yourself, but again, do it for its own sake, for your own enrichment and elevation. Not because you think it'll "fix" your height-based depression (it won't), make you attractive to women (it won't), or change your status amongst society or your peers (again, it won't).

You make some valid arguments and I don't really want to engage in a long philosophical debate,  however I can infer from your responses that you are probably stuck in your head a lot and have a cynical view on self betterment for some reason. Sometimes we have to experiment in the real world and not create meaning of life solely through the Internet.

Even if some of the things I mentioned have mixed scientific evidence supporting them, there is strong empirical evidence, and even if the placebo effect is present,  I'm going to quote one of my mentors, "placebo is a strong thing."

Open up your mind to be willing to experiment and experience. You will change who you are.

[Android]

That's all really shxtty to do, specially the height part.

Yeah, what can you do. I have my preferences too, but I gotta say I don't say it so blatantly. Many don't believe in heightism, so I guess they feel that they're allowed to make remarks in a demeaning way.

That same ex said "oh my god, you're sooooo short!" Even though she was shorter. Ex before that said "I usually only date guys that are over six feet" (can be taken as a compliment, or that she's lowering her standards for me). My own mom said "you're perfect! If only you were taller." And yes, she's totally on board with me getting CLL.


I can be positive about my height, but these outside reminders keep coming up and it definitely wears me down.

[Body Builder]

Extremis is right.
The problem is not how short men see themselves but how society sees them.
So I can't understand how someone could accept that fact no matter if he accepts his negative traits or not. I think people with self respect can't accept the fact that they are being judged so strict for their heights no matter how hard they try in everything that they can change physically and they come to conclusion that LL is the only real solution to all these society bs.
That's why I did my first LL which was really necessary to live normally imo.
The second one I plan is another topic and it is to only improve my appearance because at my current height you can live completely normal without any prejudice.
But still in terms of appearance 5.8-9 is not enough fornthe majority of women to think that you have a completely fine height and thats why I'll do the second one. To improve myself. It is not necessary as the first one.

[Zeo]

You make some valid arguments and I don't really want to engage in a long philosophical debate,  however I can infer from your responses that you are probably stuck in your head a lot and have a cynical view on self betterment for some reason. Sometimes we have to experiment in the real world and not create meaning of life solely through the Internet.

Even if some of the things I mentioned have mixed scientific evidence supporting them, there is strong empirical evidence, and even if the placebo effect is present,  I'm going to quote one of my mentors, "placebo is a strong thing."

Open up your mind to be willing to experiment and experience. You will change who you are.

People here tend to be stuck in their ways, you won't be able to convince them.

And honestly, all you were saying was that you should improve yourself, and look at the backlash. Some people (I'm sure you know all know which ones by now) are so convinced that ALL their problems are because their height, or some other external factor, I think because it takes the responsibility off of them. It's hard for them to look in the mirror and realized they are just shiity people in general, it's much more comforting to believe that their problems are due to something out of their control. I think that's why people get so offended and take it so personally when this topic is brought up.

We all know height is important, we are getting CLL after all. But it's the same old debate that's been going on since the beginning of whether its the MOST important thing or not. A black man has to accept that there is racism in the world, he doesn't have to let his life be run by it and lay down and die because he's disadvantaged.

"People who read this thread: by all means improve yourself, but again, do it for its own sake, for your own enrichment and elevation. Not because you think it'll "fix" your height-based depression (it won't), make you attractive to women (it won't), or change your status amongst society or your peers (again, it won't)."

I would add similar caveats with LL. Don't think LL is going to be a magic fix to all of your problems, if you were a loser before you will be a loser after.

In general doing things solely for external validation is sure way to remain unhappy the rest of your life. Whether its self improvemnt or LL. It sounds cliche but yea you definitely got to "do it for yourself"

Idk I'm so bored of the same debate over and over again on this forum

[google42]

Extremis is right.
The problem is not how short men see themselves but how society sees them.
So I can't understand how someone could accept that fact no matter if he accepts his negative traits or not. I think people with self respect can't accept the fact that they are being judged so strict for their heights no matter how hard they try in everything that they can change physically and they come to conclusion that LL is the only real solution to all these society bs.
That's why I did my first LL which was really necessary to live normally imo.
The second one I plan is another topic and it is to only improve my appearance because at my current height you can live completely normal without any prejudice.
But still in terms of appearance 5.8-9 is not enough fornthe majority of women to think that you have a completely fine height and thats why I'll do the second one. To improve myself. It is not necessary as the first one.

This is mostly why I want LL, so i'm not looked over and feel normal. And Android, my mom is similar to yours because she also said that a few inches in height would make me look better. I haven't told her about LL yet though.

[Zeo]

Extremis is right.
The problem is not how short men see themselves but how society sees them.
So I can't understand how someone could accept that fact no matter if he accepts his negative traits or not. I think people with self respect can't accept the fact that they are being judged so strict for their heights no matter how hard they try in everything that they can change physically and they come to conclusion that LL is the only real solution to all these society bs.
That's why I did my first LL which was really necessary to live normally imo.
The second one I plan is another topic and it is to only improve my appearance because at my current height you can live completely normal without any prejudice.
But still in terms of appearance 5.8-9 is not enough fornthe majority of women to think that you have a completely fine height and thats why I'll do the second one. To improve myself. It is not necessary as the first one.

Like I said it's the same old debate, we all agree height plays a factor in life. We are all on this forum so by definition we believe it matters

But exactly HOW MUCH it matters is the debate that everyone has thread after thread after thread after thread

[google42]

People here tend to be stuck in their ways, you won't be able to convince them.

And honestly, all you were saying was that you should improve yourself, and look at the backlash. Some people (I'm sure you know all know which ones by now) are so convinced that ALL their problems are because their height, or some other external factor, I think because it takes the responsibility off of them. It's hard for them to look in the mirror and realized they are just shiity people in general, it's much more comforting to believe that their problems are due to something out of their control. I think that's why people get so offended and take it so personally when this topic is brought up.

We all know height is important, we are getting CLL after all. But it's the same old debate that's been going on since the beginning of whether its the MOST important thing or not. A black man has to accept that there is racism in the world, he doesn't have to let his life be run by it and lay down and die because he's disadvantaged.

"People who read this thread: by all means improve yourself, but again, do it for its own sake, for your own enrichment and elevation. Not because you think it'll "fix" your height-based depression (it won't), make you attractive to women (it won't), or change your status amongst society or your peers (again, it won't)."

I would add similar caveats with LL. Don't think LL is going to be a magic fix to all of your problems, if you were a loser before you will be a loser after.

In general doing things solely for external validation is sure way to remain unhappy the rest of your life. Whether its self improvemnt or LL. It sounds cliche but yea you definitely got to "do it for yourself"

Idk I'm so bored of the same debate over and over again on this forum

I agree with you. ll won't automatically fix everything and you can't attribute your height to all your problems. I think its okay to do ll for some external validation but it should mostly be done for yourself. also, constantly debating on height is going to get us no where here.

[Zeo]

I agree with you. ll won't automatically fix everything and you can't attribute your height to all your problems. I think its okay to do ll for some external validation but it should mostly be done for yourself.

Yea I'd be lying if I said that external validation doesn't play a part in me getting LL. It's human nature to want to be accepted but taking that to the extreme is the probelm. It should definitely be done mostly for yourself.

Most of us here are reasonable and tend to agree on the same general principles, but it's just the details that spark these long debates

[myloginacct]

Yeah, what can you do. I have my preferences too, but I gotta say I don't say it so blatantly. Many don't believe in heightism, so I guess they feel that they're allowed to make remarks in a demeaning way.

That same ex said "oh my god, you're sooooo short!" Even though she was shorter. Ex before that said "I usually only date guys that are over six feet" (can be taken as a compliment, or that she's lowering her standards for me). My own mom said "you're perfect! If only you were taller." And yes, she's totally on board with me getting CLL.


I can be positive about my height, but these outside reminders keep coming up and it definitely wears me down.

In my opinion, it's a positive they'd out themselves like that, but it really is shxtty you had to go through something like that. Height is something we have no control over, other than this super expensive and life changing surgery. Imagine if someone said something like that about things they can't change about themselves, like frame, bone density, curves or even facial appearance, while in a relationship... I can't understand how things like this don't come across as off to them.

[extremis]

You make some valid arguments and I don't really want to engage in a long philosophical debate,  however I can infer from your responses that you are probably stuck in your head a lot

That's funny, I "inferred" that about you from reading your original post. You're definitely "stuck in your head" - in other words, delusional.

and have a cynical view on self betterment for some reason.

Read my post again. What I said was that self-improvement is great and it is its own reward. I said that "self improvement" should not be pursued as an attempt to compensate for height-based depression, because it won't work, which is evinced by MANY of the posters on this very board who have "self-improved" themselves into ripped physiques, million-dollar net worths, and so on, and STILL end up wanting or getting LL.

I also said that most of the things you did were questionable to consider as "self-improvement" - PUA is NOT self-improvement, for instance; neither is "taking cold showers", and so on.


Again, just in case you "forget" to read my post carefully like you did the first time: I am NOT against self-improvement. I am FOR it, so long as it's REAL self-improvement (NOT PUA or cultist garbage like wim hof cold showers, no fap, transcendental meditation, etc) and so long as it's done because you want to actually BETTER YOURSELF, not because you're looking for yet another way to cope with your unhappiness due to being short or women not finding your attractive because you're short (again, PUA does NOT help with this).

Sometimes we have to experiment in the real world and not create meaning of life solely through the Internet.

Mate, the fact that you're naive and immature enough to be suckered into believing   like "PUA", "cold showers", and all this other crap actually works already tells me I have tons more life experience than you. An average hood rat teenager has more life experience than you, hell. Even they're smart enough not to fall for this crap.

I also find it funny you're accusing me of "creating meaning of life solely through the Internet" [sic].

I'm willing to bet you found out about all this trash you mention in your post like PUA, "cold showers", "NoFap", "meditation", "mentors"/"gurus" and such through the Internet.

LOL. Hypocrite.

Even if some of the things I mentioned have mixed scientific evidence supporting them, there is strong empirical evidence, and even if the placebo effect is present,  I'm going to quote one of my mentors, "placebo is a strong thing."

Uhh.... no. I think you mean "strong ANECDOTAL evidence". As in, people CLAIM these things work or have worked for them. EMPIRICAL evidence is quantifiable, concrete evidence - statistical data, numbers, measurements. Empirical evidence is what all the things you mention LACK.

Yes, the placebo effect works, in fact, there's even studies that show it even works for people who know what the placebo effect is, as long as they know how it works. And when it works, it can do some pretty impressive things.

Yeah. The placebo effect works. But it only "works" in the person experiencing the effect. It won't change the way society treats you. It won't change the way other people view you. It won't make women attracted to you. It won't make your peers treat you with more respect.

So all in all, the placebo effect "works", but it doesn't "work" miracles. You don't seem to understand how evidence or the placebo effect work.

Open up your mind to be willing to experiment and experience. You will change who you are.

Oh look, it's another sanctimonious, patronizing idiot talking down to me like I'm the brainwashed cultist citing nonsense like PUA, cold showers, NoFap, and meditations as solutions to height-based discrimination.

I'm incredibly curious where all you people who DO NOT think height is one of, if not the most, important reasons for your unhappiness or dissatisfaction with your life come from - like, how do you end up on forums for LL?

If you're so happy and satisfied despite being short, how did you find this place? Clearly you must have been looking for ways to get taller on the internet, and looking pretty hard at that, because this surgery is EXTREMELY niche and obscure. It's not something you just casually find on Google by accident. "Normal", "well-adjusted" people who are "successful", with "good social lives", and all the crap you promise your cultist garbage will do for people here, have NO IDEA that there is such a thing as elective limb lengthening surgery.

My guess is you were extremely unhappy with your stature, then eventually you broke down, couldn't take it anymore, started coping with pseudo "self-improvement" like PUA, NoFap/"cold showers"/meditation/etc, managed to have sex with a few frumpy, fat, or otherwise conventionally unattractive girls using your newfound "PUA" techniques and, bolstered by newfound "confidence" and "courage" from your sexual "conquests" (i.e. dumpster diving for 3/10 women), promptly developed a Messiah complex and started looking for communities of depressed short men on the Internet to evangelize your inspiring story of "self-improvement".

It's boring seeing this type of trite garbage get posted on sites like this. It's frustrating. It really doesn't help anyone. People who believe "self-improvement" can solve the problem of heightism are NOT on LL forums. They're out trying these things. Nobody who's here needs to hear this crap.

[..]

Another interesting discussion.

[ghkid2019]

Both OP and extremis make good arguments. I guess in the end  there are two types of people on this forum:

People who are pretty neurotypical and have generally sorted most things out but are convinced their height is the only thing that prevents them from truly feeling fulfilled. They are facing legitimate heightism and discrimination.

People who are literally subpar in almost every aspect in their life and are not neurotypical and suck at everything but are convinced height is the main or sole reason for this subparness. They may be facing heightism, BUT let's say like if they gained 5 inches, because of their personality, they still would be the guy that people tried to avoid (weird, self deprecating, on the spectrum and dont understand social cues, shiittyy human in general)

Move up is referring to human number 2

Extremis is referring to human number 1

There certainly are people who want LL and are very functional adults and literally have done their best in every other aspect of life.

There certainly are people who want LL and are literally neckbeards trolling on reddit all day staying inside never going out cant even look a person in the eyes and simply were like this from childhood because of bad upbringing or genetically predisposed personality. They were "weird" and offputting at age 5, even before kids cared about height

In any point, basically what Moveup is saying is that some people are short but are also just shiety and lazy humans and their height has very little to do with being a "weirdo". So maybe work on other aspects of your life before blaming height for your unhappiness

Extremis is saying there are people who face significant discomfort from their height and their height is the sole reason they are neurotic sometimes. These people have good lives, are normal people you would be down to chill with, have good careers and understand most social cues, are just good humans in general. Height is the only thing that messes with them, romantically and forming other's impressions of him.

Both are honestly right, there's not much of an argument here. Both arguments are valid and the conversation just are talking about separate things