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[kool1818]

I guess I should start by addressing my physical proportions:
height:~179.5cm
wingspan:~190.0cm
femur:~45.7cm
tibia:~43.2cm

First of all, know this- I am in my early twenties, witnessed the first significant changes of the internet, and in regards to this particular forum, have actually read the things most of you have written, for well over a total two years now. Still, I choose to not be active on any forums, nor do I choose to spend my time on the web, so this is my first and likely only post. However, I feel reluctant to neglect the opportunity of listening to some of your opinions right now, since very soon, I will need to take a large step in my young adult life; this step is relevant to the the subject of this forum.

I want to pursue stature lengthening through the care of Dr. Dror Paley and his team in St. Mary's Orthopedic Center in Florida. Currently, I have a scheduled consultation appointment for early May 2017.

My reasons are simple to the world, but complex to my mind. I very much believe I suffer with dysphoria from the physical aspect, but in terms of my mental health regarding other aspects of my life, I have a comfortable amount of clarity; or at the very least, I don't feel any particular desire or need to go out of my way to alter any other aspect of my life in hopes to correct anything. For further clarity, I should mention that in the two years of growing desire to pursue this, I have looked to psychological support and now security exams to determine whether there is any form of severe body dysmorphic disorder, but have come short of finding a simple mental health solution (though I feel every person should incorporate mental health fitness into their daily lives!). Honestly, overall, I am fairly content with my place in my life, but I do feel strongly that this procedure, if done without long term complications, could relieve me of my real physical dysphoria.

A little bit of background -I was a competitive athlete my whole life and I am content with withdrawing from the highest levels of fitness from here on out in my life (so as long as I could maintain at least 85 to 90% of my athletic abiltity). I was fortunate with the way I was raised -my body throughout my life so far has easily adapted to several sports, with the most recent being mountain biking. Cumulatively, I have suffered several significant injuries, ranging from broken bones to dislocations, to muscle tears, to fractures, or deep bone bruises. Comparatively, I always found my pain tolerance, flexibility, and recovery much stronger than most of my peers, growing up.

Still, I fear this surgery. My hope is to request Dr. Dror Paley for his suggestions, but if this was euphoria, and I could ask for anything I want, I would want to be 6'0.5" to 6'2". I truly do not have a number in the end, but to save the trouble of dealing with questions or concerns regarding the premise behind my desire to be within this range, I'll stop this part of the conversation here. I won't really be willing to address my reasoning much further for why. The question I was hoping to introduce, however, is:

Under the care of Dr. Paley, what are my odds of accomplishing a full (or close to full) recovery, from a 4cm to 6cm precise 2.2 bilateral lengthening within the femurs? Please consider the following things that one of Dr. Paley's assistants told me:
-Overall, with resolved complications, Dr. Paley has a 100% success rate with the precise 2 femur lengthening
-the reason why complications arose in some of the patients was due to misdirection from Dr. Paley's suggestion, either during distraction phases or consolidations phases
-most of the concerns arising throughout the limb lengthening community are from patients undergoing the limb lengthening procedures from less experienced doctors.

Finally, please note that I have no hope of pursuing something in which the harm outweighs my wellbeing, and this realization is subjective and only accurate through my knowledge, so please refrain from believing your way is the only way.
Kind regards,
kool1818

[Big Daddy]

What kind of guy at 5'11 will spend over $100,000 on something that will barely make the slightest social difference and permanently damage his body? Socially, at most you'll get slightly more women who are into you, and at worst your procedure will be discovered and you'll be ridiculed, especially by other guys who will take advantage of the knowledge that you were so insecure you did something like this to yourself. You'll be a permanent beta male in their mind, even at 6'2.

Dr. Paley's assistants are lying to you about success rate, look him up on Vitals or even this site alone and you'll see with the small sample size that already disproves the claims of his assistants. Paley may be considered one of the best, but he's also 100% a salesman in that he will only be honest about the possible complications when it comes to the other doctors, but when it comes to himself he's like "You'll be fine, I'm perfect."

You will 100% regret doing this with the amount of time, money, and physical capabilities that will be sacrificed.

[google42]

Dude save yourself from the time, money, pain, and possible complications from this surgery. Your at a good height. What makes you feel like you have to go through this?

[kool1818]

I don't need to justify myself to you. or some guy named big daddy. the question I put up was regarding something else. if you have something regarding the particular question, I would love to hear it.

[google42]

I don't need to justify myself to you. or some guy named big daddy. the question I put up was regarding something else. if you have something regarding the particular question, I would love to hear it.

Well good luck i guess. May I ask how you are able to afford Going to paley for this?

[Body Builder]

Objectively speaking, I don't think you'll gain much at this height from LL.
But if you really believe that your height and only holds you back and you don't go over 2 inches which is a fair safe limit (as safe as LL could be of course), then go for it.

Your athletic abilities will not be like before even if everything goes fine but you are ok with that as I saw and if everything goes ok then 85% rehabilitation is absolutely possible.

So think carefully and compare the pros and the cons of LL for you. If you really believe that it worths for you and you have enough money (because if you don't it is ridiculous to give 100k for a surgery that you don't objectively need) then go for it. After all I still believe that you can have some benefits (not many though) on your looks by becoming about 6.1 ft (which is maybe the ideal height for a man) from 5.11.

[kool1818]

no. I'm so sorry

[0184946]

179 and spending 100k for some cms. So beta

[kool1818]

standards are subjective. I think it's cool that you're expressing your ideal standards, but they might not be mine. Thank you for helping to answer my question.

[682]

If you've tried every other avenue and truly believe that limb lengthening is the only one left to address your issue with height then I would ask you to reflect thoroughly and consider one final time on the decision and throughout before you decide to undergo the procedure and the point of no return including the risk, pain, time and financial investment, physical sacrifice in terms of ability etc. but if at this stage you are still completely positive that there is absolutely no other way of ridding yourself height dysphoria and you still wish to undergo limb lengthening then I fully respect and support your decision to do so and that should be the only validation and surety you need, you have no reason to convince anyone else.

You seem lucid and coherent in the reasons you have put forth and realistic and clear on what you expect to achieve and also sacrifice by electing to undergo the procedure. I respect that you have your own specific and personal aim and have no need to discuss the 'why' any further - I would comment that your goals seem reasonable, almost conservative which is positive, as is your choice of doctor. Now, on to your question;

The odds of you having a full recovery are nil, especially for somebody involved in sport at a high level - logically, it just isn't possible. Now, recovery to a high degree of your initial capacity is another matter, I believe it is possible but rarely have seen it, possibly never to a point in which I would consider satisfactory aside from one or two cases - this may be because the vast majority of those who have undergone limb lengthening do so in a manner I would consider sub-optimal either in choice of doctor, amount lengthened, rate of lengthening etc. Take the comments made by Paley's assistants with a grain of salt but the general idea that you have a higher chance of experiencing a far more satisfactory outcome with an experienced and specialized doctor appears to hold true - though the procedure itself will affect your physical well being negatively.

On to your final point, the procedure will harm your physical well being if not to some degree permanently, then certainly to a massive degree in the short term. As you have said, it's a completely personal matter if this harm will outweigh your well being as a whole but I believe that having realistic expectations of what the procedure will do for you is important in determining this. As I said earlier, consider every negative aspect and be realistic about what this surgery means to you personally.

If you have any other questions or wish to discuss the matter further, I would be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.

Regards, 682.

[kool1818]

682, i appreciate your response. I would like to ask for further help from you. Honestly man, I'm going to share my understanding of this procedure with you, in a way influenced by how I want it to go for myself. This will be your opportunity -and anyone elses- to find flaws or approvals in my logic.

1) Limb lengthening suggestions under the care of Dr. Dror Paley:
-under 5cm is theoretically low risk. I may opt of 6cm depending on the doctor and his team's suggestions.
-5cm to 6cm is at least two months of distraction, for which I am willing to stay in Florida for.
-consolidation could be done at home, for which I have a orthopedic surgeon from Stanford Hospital to cover for, be it x-rays, weekly checkups, or the three to four hospital PT sessions a week for rehabilitation.
-5 days of PT during distraction are required. Learning from old forum diaries, -along with the 5 hospital PT sessions- doing stretching sessions and 1-3 hour pool PT daily during distraction and consolidation is what I plan for myself.
-the Paley team recommends silica for vitamin D3 and calcium. I plan to stick to their prescriptions, while also supplementing my distraction phase and consolidation phase with a CPAP machine for sleep, and for the consolidation phase, I plan to supplement the silica in particular with the exogen stimulator.
-per the paley team's suggestion, I should be able to walk close to 6 months post operation. I plan to start up mild yoga at that point, in addition to the continued three to four stretching/PT sessions per week at Stanford hospital. My hope is to start reincorporating deep tissue massaging back into my life two to three weeks following the approval to walk again.
        2) Could massage therapy be potentially detrimental due to the screws or other precise parts still being within my legs?
3)The most valuable part of this whole situation is obviously my longevity and physical ability. I appreciate you emphasizing the reality of the short term immobility; however, 5-6 months of immobility to overwhelm a dysphoria permanently is to me an appropriate trade off. However, sacrificing significant physical ability in my athletism two years post operation is not reasonable for me. Understand that I do not trust most patients on this forum over the opinion of doctors, but I also recognize doctors' bias favoring the procedure, so I feel reluctant to believe anyone but my own body. I feel if I lengthen conservatively, withstand prolonged PT continuously while still giving my body recovery periods, and do this for at least one to two years, then I can get back to some degree of my current athleticism. Going from personal experiences, my broken ankle and my broken wrist are both stronger than the opposing body parts. I do recognize the concept of stretched muscles, but muscles regrow and tear -I've experienced that as well. I feel if I can help stimulate repair to my stretched muscles, that I will be able to withhold a solid recovery. In regards to the ratio or femurs to tibias, I will not be willing to surpass 6cm. Currently, I favor 5cm, but even 5cm might cause too much of a difference in the ratio, and from a functional standpoint, I can recognize how a close to 10cm longer femur than tibia could severely affect functionality. Overall, in regards to my hopes of recovering, do you think I am delusional?

 

[Big Daddy]

See if Dr Paley will fill you with testosterone too since you're obviously full of estrogen for crying about your height at 5'11 XD

[Out of Touch]

Aren't you being a little precious? You're objectively closer to being a tall guy than a short guy. If it's severe BDD, then surgery isn't the right answer is it?

According to Dr Franz Birkholtz, there is no such thing as a 100% recovery doing any lengthening on tibia or femur.

Don't think it's easy because of internals. It's a life-altering surgery either way you do it.

At your height it's stupid to consider this surgery unless you're in the Netherlands. Sure you'll help your BDD but you will have new problems. The only question is the extent of those problems.

Think long and hard.

[TIBIKE200]

At first i was being simpathetic to you op. But the way you answered some questions make it clear without doubt you are deranged. Good luck with your LL

[YourSpaceBoyfriend]

Reading some crap here recently i probably should just go and shoot myself in the nearest occasion with my glorious 5'5.

Your money your health but don't expect any gains except few additional cms after this surgery. You obviously should invest more in a shrink or something.

Besides you are saying that you are in your early twenties so still in an age when tons of people have problems with accepting their own appearance.

[YungGud]

I don't understand why most of you guys ,talking that this is not worth it in his case ,179 is Okay,dead on average,but this is his choice anyway,maybe he wanna be in tall zone

[682]

kool1818, I will be happy to provide my help where possible. For a final time, I suggest you think deeply about your decision to undergo this decision with the substantial risks as I would with anyone seriously considering undergoing this procedure, Body Builder has provided good advice to consider but I won't attempt to dissuade you nor criticize your decision. Moving on to your main post;

1) A - Correct, under 5CM is generally considered low risk, every centimeter after that appears to substantially increase the risks of complications as soft tissue damage isn't linear and is exponential when lengthening beyond the elastic limit of soft tissue, therefore the more you lengthen beyond the allowances of soft tissue, the more damage occurs. Because of your starting height (when all else is the same, a longer length bone will be able to be lengthened slightly more than that of a shorter bone with the same result) and choosing femoral lengthening, I wouldn't consider 6CM unrealistic though it would be the absolute upper limit in my opinion.

1) B - ~2 months is a realistic time frame for a lengthening rate of 1MM daily. Err on the side of caution and lengthen at the lowest rate possible without pre-consolidation if you can sacrifice more time (0.6MM has been the standard rate of lengthening) - I hold the opinion that much of the damage that occurs is from rapid lengthening (possibly as much as excessive lengthening) in which the soft tissue can not adapt sufficiently causing damage, while animal studies should not be extrapolated to humans, the studies done seem to agree with this.

1) C - By 5 days of PT, do you mean per week? I feel that your personal physical therapy regimen is ideal with focus on flexibility and low impact exercise. I am still in the process of deciding whether strenuous cardiovascular exercise such as that of the stationary bike is beneficial or detrimental to the healing process.

1) D - Good supplementation alongside the Exogen stimulator at worst will provide negligible benefit and at best may provide tangible benefits to recovery and consolidation. I see no reason to not use them during the process. After much personal research on the benefits of a CPAP machine when the patient does not suffer from apnea, the results have been inconclusive but I cannot see the harm. One thing that has promising research is the use of a hyperbaric chamber to aid recovery of soft tissue - something to consider.

1) E - Emphasis on flexibility and physical therapy is important during both the lengthening and consolidation phases. I will give my opinion on massage below.

2) - No. I believe it would be beneficial to incorporate massage prior during the whole process, both during lengthening and after, flexible, supple muscular structures lengthen considerably better than if stiff and inflexible, I would recommend deep tissue massage as often as can be afforded and self massage when possible, ideally up to twice daily during lengthening and timed prior and post lengthening with the Precice device. The medical hardware should cause no issues.

3) - As long as you have truly taken the time to consider the risk/sacrifice to 'reward', then I fully respect your opinion that short term issues are of less importance than addressing dysphoria. Your view on doctor advice/patient evidence is reasonable - I am also wary of taking either as universal fact, especially the latter as I believe it would be wrong to compare the procedure and results of a poorly planned process with finances being the deciding factor under a questionable, 3rd world doctor and hospital with little experience, lengthening an unreasonable amount at a rapid rate with little to no physical therapy, sub-optimal nutrition and supplementation, sub-optimal flexibility prior and throughout to what could be achieved and the risks mitigated substantially when done in an optimal manner, unfortunately the former seems to be viewed as the standard outcome.

I would still advise that there is risk and some sacrifice of athletic potential, what a doctor considers a satisfactory recovery may vary greatly to yours. I recommend reading Dr Birkholtz's thread on this forum as he has been very open and candid with his advice and what he believes is or isn't possible. In terms of muscular damage and repair, they aren't comparable. The stretching of soft tissue where insertion points and tendon length is changed cannot be 'healed' - but if lengthening is done reasonably and conservatively, the soft tissue should be able to adapt to a reasonable degree. I agree that 6CM is a reasonable target and appreciate that you aren't willing to sacrifice remaining in a biomechanical 'normal range' for excess lengthening, but yes 5CM would be better in all regards. The smallest amount of lengthening in which you would be satisfied with and feel the procedure worthwhile should be the length chosen. Tibia/Femur proportion falls into a general range but varies greatly, it is unlikely that 5CM of femoral lengthening will take you outside of this range nor alter function/biomechanics substantially and is almost always preferable to tibial lengthening which can affect functionality and biomechanics greatly - especially with excessive lengthening, as the femur is the longest bone in the body.

I do not believe your hopes of recovering are delusional, possibly slightly optimistic but not unreasonable to the degree that you deny any detriment to your physical ability, especially with the plan you have put together which will undoubtedly lead to a much higher chance of having a satisfactory outcome. The thought and effort you have put into research is testament to your rational and reasonable attempt at having the best recovery possible.

Regards, 682.

[0184946]

I don't understand why most of you guys ,talking that this is not worth it in his case ,179 is Okay,dead on average,but this is his choice anyway,maybe he wanna be in tall zone

The fact of he matter is his breaking a perfectly healthy perfectly aligned 100% bone even when ur with a top doc like paley ur still putting trauma on ur leg. All the guys that run the industry are average to short and banging legit 9s and 10s with no problem. Why? Because the guy has to fit in the same shot as the actress. Nobody wants to see a mammoth body overshadowing over a chick and many girls would turn down a 6'2 guy because nobody wants to feel like a midget all the time or look like their daughter.

Michael Ealy 5'10 and banged Halle Berry. Taylor Lautner 5'9 and banged Selena Gomez. Josh Hutcherson 5'7 banged Vanessa Hudgens. Brad pitt weak 5'11 and can bang any girl he wants.

[kool1818]

yourspaceboyfriend, why would you feel compelled to shoot yourself? I worry you might be in harms way. If it was said humorously, then know you are and will never be allowed to fk with my life, nor could you ever compare yourself to me or anyone else -be the best version of yourself. To some of the others who seem so full of negativity, stop building a pedestal of standards to conform to. You'll always get disappointed if you go into something with expectations. Follow your heart, use your logic to navigate through what you feel is right or wrong, listen faintly to everyone, but closely to yourself. This world is full of disgusting people, and this forum post is an example of it -I posted a question specific to my health, but a large turnout was a crowd too focused on manipulative behavior, wanting to control the standards of what is right or wrong. Ignore people like them. This is my one and only message to people needing support to follow their goals -people will attempt to dissuade you your whole life. don't let them. don't give them any reason to keep their hatred alive in front of you. 

[kool1818]

682, I plan to ask the paley team what they feel about a 4cm to 5cm lengthening in the femur. Again, it was really cool of you to share your thoughts.

[Ozymandias]

I don't need to justify myself to you. or some guy named big daddy. the question I put up was regarding something else. if you have something regarding the particular question, I would love to hear it.

Big Daddy may be a bit rude, but his post speaks the truth. Full recovery is impossible or highly unlikely, and, at your height, this surgery is simply not worth the risks.

You are 1,80, for f*cks sake. Do yourself a favor and forget about this surgery.

[682]

kool1818, a very accurate, relevant and poignant post - thank you for sharing it. When you contact, Dr Dror Paley or a member of his team - please share with us their view on conservative lengthening and no problem, if you have any more queries or wish to run an idea by me no matter how small, feel free to send me a private message.

Best, 682.

[google42]

Big Daddy may be a bit rude, but his post speaks the truth. Full recovery is impossible or highly unlikely, and, at your height, this surgery is simply not worth the risks.

You are 1,80, for f*cks sake. Do yourself a favor and forget about this surgery.

Maybe he's too brainwashed and thinks his height isn't good enough. Probably spent too much time on the internet.

[Jack1066]

Aren't your legs a little long? At least 89 cm inseam length (plus whatever is below your ankle- incidentally, what is your true inseam length?). Not that it should be a big problem to go a little over 50% on your leg: upper body ratio proportionally (well, not in my opinion, others would disagree) but it's something to think about.

How would you feel about a smaller amount, maybe 4 cm?

[DreamToBecomeTall]

Dude...You have perfect height and body measurements...It seems like you are in a state with low self confidence bro....Just check out with a good Psychiatrists..Some concealing and positive mindset will change you to 5' 11 to 6' 2''