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Author Topic: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour  (Read 7787 times)

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Muse

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Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« on: October 19, 2013, 07:56:22 PM »

This is a merged topic with posts from other topic Site rules suggestion & Anti old forum  Poll, because of the common posts of all three topic. 

For anyone late to the thread,  alot of the misunderstanding happened when this forum was getting started and nobody had a clear gripe on the who were the moderators and the forum policy about why we don't allow http/www links to old forum

I have removed posts on this subject so everyone can move beyond it.

AppleAday has settled this issue over here,

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=520.msg1188#msg1188
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 05:10:06 AM by Admin »
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Medium Drink Of Water

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2013, 08:21:46 PM »

Daemon and TomD, I understand your feelings about SysOp.  I felt the same way about old forum  Admin back in 2007 which is why I waited until now to tell my LL story.  But take my advice and just let it go.  Being anti-old forum  and anti-SysOp is not how this forum is going to grow into a viable alternative.  Someone found out old forum  Admin's identity and confronted him in person.  That scared him enough to close the site down for a while, then sell it to SysOp.  SysOp will eventually make enough enemies and destroy himself too.

If you're going to ban people for arguing with you and censor links to a forum you don't like, well, that's a pretty old forum -like way of running this place.  People will leave here for the same reasons they're leaving old forum .  You need to develop thicker skin and tolerate dissidence, because the problem with old forum  Admin and SysOp is that they could never manage to do that.
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Muse

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2013, 08:46:53 PM »

Daemon and TomD, I understand your feelings about SysOp.  I felt the same way about old forum  Admin back in 2007 which is why I waited until now to tell my LL story.  But take my advice and just let it go.  Being anti-old forum  and anti-SysOp is not how this forum is going to grow into a viable alternative.  Someone found out old forum  Admin's identity and confronted him in person.  That scared him enough to close the site down for a while, then sell it to SysOp.  SysOp will eventually make enough enemies and destroy himself too.

If you're going to ban people for arguing with you and censor links to a forum you don't like, well, that's a pretty old forum -like way of running this place.  People will leave here for the same reasons they're leaving old forum .  You need to develop thicker skin and tolerate dissidence, because the problem with old forum  Admin and SysOp is that they could never manage to do that.

If this was ran like old forum , this thread wouldn't even exist, it would be deleted in a heartbeat.

1) AppleADay is suspended from posting, because he clearly has a problem making his points without starting arguments with two other members (Carter & TomD).  It's not what he say, it's how he say it.     The argument was not with me as conversations between me and AppleADay have been fine, you can ask him via PM.   .

When somebody resort to insult/sarcasm/hostility to make a point to other members, then they need to look at their own attitude first.   This is a forum where people need to be civil toward each other regardless of difference in opinion.

2) http/www Links are not allowed because we do not want to boost their site profile in search engine. This is about technical issue, not censorship of information. 

We allow plenty of posts referencing information on old forum , it's not like we are afraid to mention their website name here, be it old forum  or Make Me Taller.

3) Sysop-Apotheosis may have made plenty of enemies, but odds are nobody would have done a thing to start an alternative forum if everyone had the same mentality to leave it as it is.  That's the reality of the situation and things would have went from bad to worse. 

4)  Developing legit LL information and old forum  related issues are separate things, that is true. 

There are 4 Dedicated Forums for Medical Aspects of Limb Lengthening, because that is the main purpose here.

The secondary thing is people need to know for safety reason is that old forum  is a potential disaster site because of the Sysop/Apotheosis financial investment and conflict of interest with certain Doctors and manufacturers.

A good number of us are driven the extra mile to make this place a real alternative because of the negative emotions toward the other place.  If you can turn negative emotions into positive actions,  that's the way to react.

Let's see what everyone here think about whether these two agendas are conflicting each other, then we'll go with the majority's opinion.  I'll start a poll so people can give their view.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 05:14:39 AM by Admin »
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TomD

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2013, 10:03:44 PM »

Daemon and TomD, I understand your feelings about SysOp.  I felt the same way about old forum  Admin back in 2007 which is why I waited until now to tell my LL story.  But take my advice and just let it go.  Being anti-old forum  and anti-SysOp is not how this forum is going to grow into a viable alternative.  Someone found out old forum  Admin's identity and confronted him in person.  That scared him enough to close the site down for a while, then sell it to SysOp.  SysOp will eventually make enough enemies and destroy himself too.

If you're going to ban people for arguing with you and censor links to a forum you don't like, well, that's a pretty old forum -like way of running this place.  People will leave here for the same reasons they're leaving old forum .  You need to develop thicker skin and tolerate dissidence, because the problem with old forum  Admin and SysOp is that they could never manage to do that.

I just want to expose him for fooling patients while making money. It wasnt fair.

other than that, We cant have back links up to old forum . It defeats the purpose of our forum.  I dont think its unreasonable

I am sure Dameon would agree that we welcome anyone from old forum  and especially the patient diaries.
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helpyourself

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2013, 11:42:07 PM »

Here's where you're mistaken on two points

1)  AppleADay was banned for arguing with other members TomD and Carter in two separate threads.  He resort to sarcasm and insults, which is the main reason he is banned.   A forum where people can't communicate without using sarcasm, insults and hostility is not the way to go.

As far as I know, all conversations between me and AppleADay have been fine, you can ask him via PM.   

2)  For the last time, giving links to old forum  is not acceptable because it'll boost their search engine ranks, nothing to do with "censorship".  Plain and simple.   This is something technical, please go read up for clarity.

i seem to remember both of those also used insults and foul language which apple did not

why are they not banned or suspended too?

is it different rules for different people?

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TomD

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2013, 11:48:28 PM »

i seem to remember both of those also used insults and foul language which apple did not

why are they not banned or suspended too?

is it different rules for different people?


Here comes all the fake id butthurt.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 11:50:55 PM by TomD »
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Muse

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2013, 11:49:37 PM »

i seem to remember both of those also used insults and foul language which apple did not

why are they not banned or suspended too?

is it different rules for different people?

Nope, the same rules applies for everyone.  If a person is consistently getting into argument with various people, they'll get posting rights suspended as a warning.  Especially if there's a high possibility it will happen over and over again.
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helpyourself

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2013, 11:53:36 PM »

Nope, the same rules applies for everyone.  If a person is consistently getting into argument with various people, they'll get posting rights suspended as a warning.

well in those threads you linked to tomd and carter were very aggresive

apple was sarcastic i'll agree, but he didnt insult or use bad language just put forward some points that tom didnt like

and twice is hardly consistsent really this is very old forum  like activity
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TomD

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 12:03:12 AM »

well in those threads you linked to tomd and carter were very aggresive

apple was sarcastic i'll agree, but he didnt insult or use bad language just put forward some points that tom didnt like

and twice is hardly consistsent really this is very old forum  like activity

Lol. You make it seem like it was all fun and sunshine ........but I 'didnt like it'

No. You ........ I mean Apple  came here to antagonize. Got called out , and then went utterly bananas.

There are several people on here who use old forum . They dont come here to fight with us . You do, I mean Apple.

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 03:55:50 AM »

The last thing we need here is in-fighting.  Everyone here wants to create an alternative to old forum , and I think we can all agree that whatever problem we have with this forum, that same problem exists on old forum  a hundred times worse.  I'm just going to state my final opinions on these issues and then drop it.  If you don't agree with me, then let's just agree to disagree and move on based on the common ground we do share.

Everyone here knows what old forum  is.  Everyone who will come here in the foreseeable future will know what old forum  is.  Removing links to old forum  on this forum is not going to hurt old forum  because links to old forum  on this forum do not help old forum .  It will have a negligible impact either way so it just comes off as being petty.

An_Apple_A_Day did not, in my opinion, make any ban-worthy posts.  I just went back and read all of Apple's posts, and it seems that the others were the ones starting the fights because they didn't like what he had to say.  Now Apple gets banned because one of those fights was against one of the forum's leaders.  Again, this seems petty to me.  I hope I'm wrong, and I apologize if I am, but I think if you replaced TomD's username with someone else's in that Rules thread then nobody would've been banned.

old forum  Admin was a petty man who ran that forum to stroke his own ego first and to help others second.  That's why I hadn't posted there in years and had nowhere to tell my LL story until this forum was started.  When I saw his type of petty behavior from the leaders here (though to a much lesser degree I'll admit) it made me have to stop and think about whether or not I wanted to be a member of this forum anymore.  The answer is yes.  I'm going to keep posting here despite seeing some things I don't like, and I encourage everyone else who shares my opinions about old forum  links and Apple's banning to do the same.  Let's make this forum work.
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Adriano

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 04:29:03 AM »



That said, I don't really care if this forum is anti-old forum  or neutral.  My problem was with the banning of Apple.  I didn't see anything ban-worthy about what he said.  You shouldn't use your admin powers to ban someone for arguing with you about your anti-old forum  agenda.  That's something old forum  Admin and SysOp would do, and that's why I refuse to post on old forum .  Nobody wants to post on a forum run by a dictator they can't argue with.  Everyone thought old forum  Admin was a shill getting kickbacks from Beijing so this stuff about SysOp and Betzbone is really nothing new in LL/old forum  history anyway.

I Totally agree with you.
I am still working out what Apple did wrong.
I wont go into the details because I don't want be seen as starting arguments.
I have already been told I would be BANNED if I continued doing what ever it is that I was doing. ( what happened to no THREATS?)

Will a forum where people can say what they want really EXIST?



 
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Blackhawk

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 04:33:26 AM »


The last thing we need here is in-fighting.  Everyone here wants to create an alternative to old forum , and I think we can all agree that whatever problem we have with this forum, that same problem exists on old forum  a hundred times worse.  I'm just going to state my final opinions on these issues and then drop it.  If you don't agree with me, then let's just agree to disagree and move on based on the common ground we do share.

Everyone here knows what old forum  is.  Everyone who will come here in the foreseeable future will know what old forum  is.  Removing links to old forum  on this forum is not going to hurt old forum  because links to old forum  on this forum do not help old forum .  It will have a negligible impact either way so it just comes off as being petty.

An_Apple_A_Day did not, in my opinion, make any ban-worthy posts.  I just went back and read all of Apple's posts, and it seems that the others were the ones starting the fights because they didn't like what he had to say.  Now Apple gets banned because one of those fights was against one of the forum's leaders.  Again, this seems petty to me.  I hope I'm wrong, and I apologize if I am, but I think if you replaced TomD's username with someone else's in that Rules thread then nobody would've been banned.

old forum  Admin was a petty man who ran that forum to stroke his own ego first and to help others second.  That's why I hadn't posted there in years and had nowhere to tell my LL story until this forum was started.  When I saw his type of petty behavior from the leaders here (though to a much lesser degree I'll admit) it made me have to stop and think about whether or not I wanted to be a member of this forum anymore.  The answer is yes.  I'm going to keep posting here despite seeing some things I don't like, and I encourage everyone else who shares my opinions about old forum  links and Apple's banning to do the same.  Let's make this forum work.

I agree.  I think there is some good info on old forum  even though SysOp and old forum A are bull .  I also don't think Apple should have privileges taken away.  Apo is a liar and I would like some distance from that POS though.  Can we change the look of this site?  At this point we should differentiate from them.

Medium Drink it is good to have you here I hope you stay on here for a long time.
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Muse

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2013, 04:47:28 AM »


Everyone here knows what old forum  is.  Everyone who will come here in the foreseeable future will know what old forum  is.  Removing links to old forum  on this forum is not going to hurt old forum  because links to old forum  on this forum do not help old forum .  It will have a negligible impact either way so it just comes off as being petty.

An_Apple_A_Day did not, in my opinion, make any ban-worthy posts.  I just went back and read all of Apple's posts, and it seems that the others were the ones starting the fights because they didn't like what he had to say.  Now Apple gets banned because one of those fights was against one of the forum's leaders.  Again, this seems petty to me.  I hope I'm wrong, and I apologize if I am, but I think if you replaced TomD's username with someone else's in that Rules thread then nobody would've been banned.

old forum  Admin was a petty man who ran that forum to stroke his own ego first and to help others second.  That's why I hadn't posted there in years and had nowhere to tell my LL story until this forum was started.  When I saw his type of petty behavior from the leaders here (though to a much lesser degree I'll admit) it made me have to stop and think about whether or not I wanted to be a member of this forum anymore.  The answer is yes.  I'm going to keep posting here despite seeing some things I don't like, and I encourage everyone else who shares my opinions about old forum  links and Apple's banning to do the same.  Let's make this forum work.

Let's agree to disagree on these issues.

My opinion on links to old forum : 

Over time it will help old forum  when it happens hundreds of times, that's the main reason it's a bad idea.  It would be petty if we don't even allow people to mention anything about old forum , but that's not the case here. 

My opinion on AppleADay Suspension/Ban: 

Another consideration that influence the suspension was that with the way he posted here, he will continue to get into arguments with other members.  It's either he changes the way he express things, or he will be squabbling with people on here again.  Also I know AppleADay doesn't post this way on old forum , so that's another thing for consideration.     

It really doesn't matter who he was arguing with, it's the general pattern of behavior that caused his suspension. He can calm down and think over how he can integrate within the community, because there are other people on here.  That's up to him to figure it out. 

I should have given AppleADay a warning right away, so I take responsibility for not warning him early.

On reconsideration, I will change the suspension to 3 days.  That will be the standard first strike for anyone who is constantly arguing (sarcasm/insults/hostility) with other members.

Can we change the look of this site?  At this point we should differentiate from them.

This is something I will look into, honestly most of the SMF themes are not pretty to look at.  You can change into another theme now by going to Profile > Looks and Layout
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 05:04:26 AM by Dameon »
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Adriano

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2013, 04:49:16 AM »

i seem to remember both of those also used insults and foul language which apple did not

why are they not banned or suspended too?

is it different rules for different people?

Its a not a level playing field my friend. It wasn't long before I realised there is a perking order here. You just don't get into arguments with some members.

some members are allowed to break rules while others can be punished for not even breaking the rules.
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Blackhawk

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2013, 05:03:06 AM »

I think it ok to mention old forum  here but with a disclaimer.

That everything on there is may be biased info and it is ran by a person who is a liar.
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TomD

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2013, 05:14:05 AM »




An_Apple_A_Day did not, in my opinion, make any ban-worthy posts.  I just went back and read all of Apple's posts, and it seems that the others were the ones starting the fights because they didn't like what he had to say.  Now Apple gets banned because one of those fights was against one of the forum's leaders.  Again, this seems petty to me.  I hope I'm wrong, and I apologize if I am, but I think if you replaced TomD's username with someone else's in that Rules thread then nobody would've been banned.

I might be a 'leader' here but I am no moderator or dictator. Dameon and only Dameon alone is qualified to ban or not ban. The rest of us are equals.

I try very hard here. I hope some have appreciated it rather than just try to find fault with it. Some of the other members also put a lot of effort in here. I credit them as well. I am not trying to assume any authority. I just work hard. There is no point to assuming control here. Its not for hire. This site will never be here to make money.

You state that you think this Apple guy comes in and we just out of the blue dont like what he has to day. Absolving Apple for any responsibility for what he wrote in the first place. He is entitled to write whatever he feels, no matter how accusatory, no matter how obnoxious, and we 'didn't like it' and thus we are at fault for yelling at him.

That is your story. Counting on others who read this and just take your word for it and wont go back and check. Sorry. That just wont do. Apple came and started this both of these times.

You are using the same logic Apple used. Come punch someone in the face, deny that you did anything wrong , and when they complain , point the finger at them wondering why they are yelling at you.

According to your logic, anyone can come here, stir up crap, and if we dare complain, we are being mean and run a kangaroo court. Do you know how ridiculous that is?

As Dameon wrote, there is going to be some forms of censorship. Whether you like it or not. Dameon also wrote that the reason Apple was banned was due to ridiculous behavior . 

Your thinly veiled message is that Dameon plays favorites with me and Carter. Well, I hope he  plays favorites with EVERYONE who puts the effort free of charge to help this site out. I can tell you that Dameon works the hardest of all and does not deserve your accusation.

Apple crossed the line and paid the price. As Dameon said, if he doesn't like it, he can just go back to old forum  . I would ask he take the rest of the moles with him please.
 

If you want to make this forum work, then I have a suggestion.How about you roll up your sleeves and put a effort in and stop judging the people who are working hard here. You put up rules. You contact doctors. You brainstorm with Dameon. Go ahead. Nobody is stopping you.

Do something constructive.
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Adriano

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2013, 05:14:38 AM »


My opinion on links to old forum : 

Over time it will help old forum  when it happens hundreds of times, that's the main reason it's a bad idea.  It would be petty if we don't even allow people to mention anything about old forum , but that's not the case here. 

DELETE all links to old forum .
whether it is intentional or not it is a form of advertising for them (old forum , syoup, etc)

Why do u think anyone who mentions this site on old forum  gets banned?

ALSO, we need to stop talking about old forum  because everytime  we type "old forum " we r in a way also increasing their popularity.
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TomD

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2013, 05:17:10 AM »

DELETE all links to old forum .
whether it is intentional or not it is a form of advertising for them (old forum , syoup, etc)

Why do u think anyone who mentions this site on old forum  gets banned?

ALSO, we need to stop talking about old forum  because everytime  we type "old forum " we r in a way also increasing their popularity.

I try to say 'the other site'  ;)

p.s. The fact you wrote old forum  5 times in your post to tell us not to write old forum  is not lost on me   ;)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 05:24:01 AM by TomD »
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Blackhawk

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2013, 05:24:13 AM »

The person running that site should be prosecuted.

Can we get them shut down?
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Muse

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2013, 05:52:21 AM »

I Totally agree with you.
I am still working out what Apple did wrong.
I wont go into the details because I don't want be seen as starting arguments.
I have already been told I would be BANNED if I continued doing what ever it is that I was doing. ( what happened to no THREATS?)

Will a forum where people can say what they want really EXIST?

 
Look I don't know who told you about being Banned, but if it's TomD, then he's just another member here and has no moderator rights. 

Apple came here to bash this forum and started arguments with other members, he has crossed a line of basic respect for others.
 
Its a not a level playing field my friend. It wasn't long before I realised there is a perking order here. You just don't get into arguments with some members.

some members are allowed to break rules while others can be punished for not even breaking the rules.


If there are any doubts about that,  I'll have a new moderation system to make people feel  confident that things are done in a honest and fair manner.

Let's have members nominate 2 new moderators who can also have vote on suspension and banning of members, this should put claims of "favoritism" and "pecking order" to rest since it's not solely my decision.   

« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 04:35:33 AM by Admin »
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Medium Drink Of Water

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2013, 04:41:25 PM »

AppleCore it makes you look pretty bad when you create a new username because of a 3-day ban that was originally a 4-week ban that got reduced TWICE, just to come back and argue the same points you already made quite adequately the first time.  And it makes Daemon look especially lenient and hands-off for allowing it.  What you're doing now is only hurting your case and strengthening theirs.
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TomD

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2013, 06:22:53 PM »

And people were telling Carter and myself we are FOOLS to think this 'Apple' person has a problem.

Silly us.  ::)



I believe some are coming on here to discredit the entire forum which is what this is all about. We need to have 2 rules . Plain and simple and its up to Dameon to enforce it or get a moderator to enforce it.

Rule

1) This forum is borne out of dictatorship and fraud from sysop. We left due to his antics. Please do not mention him here. Go back to old forum  and discuss him all day on his forrum. Not here.  old forum  members are welcome as long as they respect our rules and members.

If you mention sysop in a way to promote him, your post may be deleted.

2)
Do not put up links that can take folks on our site back to old forum . Back links to old forum  are a gateway for people to be steered right back to the same trap we just left. If you put up back links to old forum  they will be removed.

Again) Do not shill for the guy we just got away from, and do not post link backs to his site. Its not rocket science.

Now, for Gods sake. If you cannot handle dealing with these 2 basic rules, then you are not emotionally or intellectually fit for this place. Go there.

Do NOT come here and tell us we are full of crap and have to get our act together (cough Apple cough) Do not come tell us we are dictators for removing a back link from the very place we just tried to get away from.



« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 06:25:19 PM by TomD »
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An_Apple_A_Day

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2013, 10:08:34 AM »

This was a PM I sent to Dameon, he said it would help if other knew we have cleared the air.  Which we have.  I accept my faults coming across as an arrogant twat.  To anyone who was insulted I apologise.

Quote
Dameon,

I felt victimized when I was banned earlier on.  I saw that TomD's explosive reactions to my (albeit sarcastic retorts) were not dealt with appropriately.

Whilst I still don't agree I should have been banned, I respect the fact you stuck to your word of three days and I respect the fact that you have banned TomD for his conduct accordingly too.

I don't want to post this in the thread you banned TomD in because I don't want to start another fight.  But I do want you to know that for what it is worth you have my respect.  My intention is not to destroy this place either.  I just feel that certain members who should not be calling shots are letting no power go to their heads.  I am getting the impression you too have now got this vibe too.

Thanks,

Apple

« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 10:14:23 AM by An_Apple_A_Day »
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Adriano

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2013, 11:29:52 AM »

Great to have u back Apple!

There r bullies in forums. they just pick on others and start taking out whatever issues they have with themselves on others.
TomD has so much anger and he just takes it out on the wrong ppl.

I understand he is mad at Syop. So the fact that he cant take out his anger on the guy he ends up abusing others on this site.

I try to let these guys win what ever arguments they try to have with me. it makes you wonder whether some ppl r here to learn and contribute LL related information or just have a go at innocent ppl.

Bullies out there stop taking and/or making things personal. if someone disagrees with you just let it be. We can not all share the same opinions,perceptions, conclusions, LL goals, etc .


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An_Apple_A_Day

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Re: Thoughts on Censorship & Bad Behaviour
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2013, 11:52:56 AM »

Great to have u back Apple!

There r bullies in forums. they just pick on others and start taking out whatever issues they have with themselves on others.
TomD has so much anger and he just takes it out on the wrong ppl.

I understand he is mad at Syop. So the fact that he cant take out his anger on the guy he ends up abusing others on this site.

I try to let these guys win what ever arguments they try to have with me. it makes you wonder whether some ppl r here to learn and contribute LL related information or just have a go at innocent ppl.

Bullies out there stop taking and/or making things personal. if someone disagrees with you just let it be. We can not all share the same opinions,perceptions, conclusions, LL goals, etc .

Onwards and upwards.

No one ever said it would be an easy ride!
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